Template talk:Anglican Communion

Restored section on Anglican Life to template, per consensus. This is an essential element for understanding what Anglicanism is, and there is no reason it should be missing. I have placed at the top since it makes an effective transition from the generic Background to particularities. Castanea dentata (talk) 03:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

No you didn't. You just reverted to an earlier version of the template. Since January 17th - over two months - this version has been the consensus version, as further attempts after that date to acquire feed back dissolved into conversations with myself. I am open to restarting such a discussion. What do you feel should be on here and why? What should be removed? This template mirrors the "Top" priority category for the wikiproject, so changes here will be reflected there as well. -- Secisek (talk) 07:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Secisek as well. Please don't make changes to the template without discussion, because it affects many other things at the same time. Instead, explain what should be here and why, and what should be removed, and then we can discuss it. Tb (talk) 08:29, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Note that there was a lively discussion, but it was removed. Wyeson 17:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Restored essential Anglican topics

There are two versions going on here, an older version and a newer. Unfortunately, the Talk record has been removed.

As I and many others have stated in the past, the problem with Secisek's newer version is that it is not really very Anglican. Distinctly Anglican features have been removed and random Christian ones put up in their place.

I have restored the older template, which holds the following essential Anglican topics that had been removed without any explanation:

• Church of England - and this is the mother church!
• English Reformation - how Anglicanism arose
• History of the Anglican Communion - more tangential but pertinent
• Church of England parish church - this is the essence of Anglicanism
• Westminster Abbey - world famous Anglican music
• Choir of King's College, Cambridge - world famous Anglican music
• Anglican church music - Anglican music itself
• Anglican chant - Anglicanism's unique contribution to the world of Church music
• Architecture of the medieval cathedrals of England - peerless Anglican architecture
• British and Irish stained glass (1811–1918) - likewise
• Rood screen - an Anglican distinctive
• Continuing Anglican movement - how Anglicans resolve differences
• John Wycliffe - the grandfather of the English Reformation!
• William Tyndale - Anglican who began the current tradition of English Bible translation!
• Hugh Latimer - Anglican theologian and martyr
• John Hooper - Anglican theologian and martyr
• John Merbecke - Anglican who composed the liturgy in the Book of Common Prayer
• John Jewel - Anglican theologian and martyr
• James I of England - Anglican king of King James Bible fame!
• John Donne - great Anglican thinker and poet

In the alternate version, the above Anglican topics were replaced with the following random non-Anglican topics that might be pertinent on the Christianity template:

• Eucharist
• Liturgical Year
• Biblical Canon
• Bishops
• Dioceses
• Episcopal polity
• Christian Church
• Jesus Christ
• St Paul
• Catholicity
• Catholicism
• Apostolic Succession
• Ministry
• Ecumenical councils
• Christian Art

Wyeson 17:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit war?

There is no need for an edit war here. Let's look at these proposals:

Add?

• Church of England - no objection, already on there
• English Reformation - no objection, already on there
• History of the Anglican Communion - no objection, already on there
• Church of England parish church - an article of mid importance at best
• Westminster Abbey - a single church, not even a cathedral. Not a top priority article
• Choir of King's College, Cambridge - Again, not a top priority article
• Anglican church music - no objection, already on there
• Anglican chant - Possibly...we already have music in general
• Architecture of the medieval cathedrals of England - no objection, already on there
• British and Irish stained glass (1811–1918) - very specific and not communion-wide
• Rood screen - an Anglican distinctive? used by the orthodox as well, where do you think we got it from?
• Continuing Anglican movement - important enough for it own template: {{Continuing Anglican}}, which I made some time ago
• John Wycliffe - the grandfather of the English Reformation? BS! They were burning lollards right next to Roman Catholics in the time of Henry VIII. That is a Victorian imagination at work.
• William Tyndale - maybe...to call Tyndale an "Anglican" is a bridge too far. Protestant, yes, Anglican, no.
• Hugh Latimer - Ridley before latimer and I wouldn't go with Ridley. Both of their importance was exagerated by Foxe.
• John Hooper - Not an Anglican but a proto-puritan. Like Latimer, most famous for being burned alive.
• John Jewel - You are wrong, not a martyr but a very important figure. Any objections to adding him?
• James I of England - no objection, already on there
• John Donne - same as Jewel.

Remove?

• Eucharist - links to a top priority anglican specific article
• Liturgical Year - links to a top priority anglican specific article
• Biblical Canon- critical in explaing our use of the bible versus protestant and Orthodox views
• Bishops - clearly critical
• Dioceses - clearly critical
• Episcopal polity - clearly critical
• Christian Church - important for context
• Jesus Christ - two seperate links that explain the whole purpose of the Church
• St Paul - posibly questionable - I would drop him for Jewel.
• Catholicity- links to a top priority anglican specific section
• Catholicism - links to a top priority anglican specific section
• Apostolic Succession- clearly critical
• Ministry - links to a top priority anglican specific article
• Ecumenical councils- links to a top priority anglican specific section
• Christian Art- possible questionable, we need our article!

The discussion was not lively, nor was it "removed" - it was archived when nobody made a comment for almost two months. I have identified priorites above. Now, pick your battles and let's come to consensus. -- Secisek (talk) 18:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the substance of Secisek's outline. I think that Paul should be dropped, and I do think Donne and Jewel should be added. I think the Rood Screen and Stained Glass are way too specific, but a case could be made for Anglican Chant. Wycliffe, Tyndale, and that lot, should not be here. Tb (talk) 18:29, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the majority of the points, but perhaps the main article should be the general Anglicanism article, rahter than Anglican Communion (or we should rename the template Anglican Communion), as otherwise the template could be seen as expressing the point of view that only the Anglican Communion is truly Anglican (and whatever we as individuals think, I'm not sure that really squares with WP:NPOV). For the same reason, we probabl ought to have Continuing Anglican movemnet on there too. David Underdown (talk) 08:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

{{Anglican Communion}} is the footer version of this template. Both {{Continuing Anglican}} and {{Anglican realignment}} already are in use as similar, but seperate nav boxes. The question of who is an Anglican - and who gets to decide - is being debated in the real-world right now and I think until there is real-world consensus, the seperate nav-boxes are the way to go. -- Secisek (talk) 17:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The awkwardness here is the complex political reality on the ground, indeed. If this were a case of groups which mutually acknowledged each other's participation in the same general world, there wouldn't be a problem. But the very existence of the Continuing Anglican movement was its opposition to the Anglican Communion, and its view that the Anglican Communion (or the relevant local portion of it) was no longer a faithful church. I used to waggishly remark that "continuing anglican" used "continuing" to mean "in schism", and "anglican" to mean "not connected with the Church of England". The "continuing anglicans" have a serious problem with self-definition, and I don't know that we can clean up the problem here; it's only our job to document it. The very notion of an "Anglicanism" which is broader than the actual Anglican Communion is a little, well, offensive to me, though it is a plausible compromise for Wikipedia. I'm not at all content to see the overwhelming vast majority of the world's Anglicans (who are part of the Anglican Communion) forced to define ourselves in terms of some generic "Anglicanism". This would misrepresent the origins and character of the Anglicanism which the Anglican Communion shares--its emphasis on a common episcopate, and relationships of full communion. Anglicans are not organized the way Presbyterians or Lutherans are; we (at least, the majority in the Anglican Communion) identify Anglicanism as being virtually identical with the Anglican Communion. I completely understand that this is merely the POV of the Anglican Communion majority, and it's not acceptable to impose this POV on the continuing anglicans who disagree with it. Yet, it is also not ok with me to push the alternate POV that there is some generic Anglicanism of which both the Anglican Communion and the continuing anglicans are parts. Tb (talk) 18:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I tend to agree that the Communion is the most important thing, I think that in practice since we'd still have all the links under the organisation heading, more weight would still be given to that. I think it's much harder to make the case under Wikipedia policies not to mention them at all. David Underdown (talk) 19:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

One week on, I wonder if the whole thing was nothing more than a hit and run. The only user really pushing hard for restoring an older version of the template had made 17 edits in article space since 2 June 2007 prior to last week. On 2 April he restored a version of this template from last January, commented here, and then made 16 edits in quick succession to distribute "his version" of the template. He has not been heard from since. Give it another week or so, but I think we can add Jewel and maybe Donne, drop St Paul and move on. -- Secisek (talk) 02:45, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The one thing I'm NOT seeing in the template is the thing that I would have thought was one of the first links: Anglican Communion itself. Shouldn't that be part? I know, seems common sense, but.... Bill Ward (talk) 20:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

"Anglican" navbox?

I would like to hear why this new Template:Anglican template was added, which seems to be a duplication of this one here. The editor who created it then proceeded to replace the long-standing templates with his new one. Such a change requires some explanation. Tb (talk) 18:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

There's also Template:Anglocommunion duplicating this, and Template:Angloportal which duplicates Template:Anglican Portal. Tb (talk) 18:41, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

All forks to avoid discussion here. A reminder of policy: "Templates should not be split into multiple templates just so each can advocate a different stance on the subject." -- Secisek (talk) 19:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that they are content forks, but I'd prefer not to guess at the motives behind their creation. Tb (talk) 19:46, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I alerted an admin and they were all speedy deleted. Setting up "competing" templates to get around consensus is not acceptable at Wikipedia. -- Secisek (talk) 12:36, 4 April 2009 (UTC)