Talk:M1918 Browning automatic rifle

BAR vs. LMG

• I should add what distinguishes the BAR from a LMG, even though that's the catagory that it usually fits in. Oberiko

• Go ahead. Engineer

• Was it true that the US ordered Chauchats instead of the BAR partially because they didn't have the time to manufacture new guns, but also because they didn't want the technology to fall into the hands of the Germans? I remember hearing it, but thought it sounded strange. Hyperneural

I've heard the same thing, but I don't have a source. ASWilson 01:06, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

The BAR hunting rifle currently manufactured by Browning is a modern semi-auto design that is toatlly unrelated to the military BAR.

I've looked at several sites, and they all saw the Browning saw some action, though a little, in the last months of WWI, so I edited the page. Mightfox

Falling into German Hands

I have heard that line before, and while I do not have enough solid evidence to confirm or deny I feel I can make an intelligent guess. To me it seems very unlikely we would be worried about the germans capturing the technology of something like the BAR. To many people think only of the MG42 when it comes to German Machiene Guns, and while it was superiror to anything else in the field of battle that day, it was not the only german full auto weapon to hold this distinction. Thus given the fact that the German technology was already so far ahead of the allies in that area, it seems unlikely to me that this would be a legitimate concern. Klauth 22:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The Germans were a scavenger army whether people want to believe it or not. They impressed everything they could get their hands on. However, when it comes to BARs I wouldn't think US style ones would have been captured, since they were not sold lend-lease to the Russians to my knowledge and not to anyone else for that matter. However, I'm sure the Germans picked up a number of FN BARs and Polish clones too, and impressed them to some degree. If you can find pictures of soldiers in Russia using Thompsons then I'm sure they were using 8mm BARs. --Thatguy96 17:19, 20 February 2006

BARs falling into German hands was a real concern in WWI. At that age the BAR was the most advanced automatic weapon of its class. -Chin, Cheng-chuan

M1918 Sniper Use?

Was the BAR ever considered to be used as a sniper rifle?, Just asking becouse say if there is a situtation the Sniper would have to use full automatic?. User:EX STAB

yes COD 3 made it so overpowerd(Esskater11 23:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC))

If there is a situation where a sniper would have to use full auto fire, it is when he is filling in for, say, the machinegunner. IOW, there is no such situation for the role.--Sctn2labor (talk) 16:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

No idea about COD 3 making it overpowered. The BAR uses the same .30-'06 round as the M1Garand and thus should be equally powerful

As to the use of a fully automatic rifle in the sniper role, I have never heard of such use. The role of the sniper is precise fire. Full-auto is by definition less precise than semi-auto. You are perhaps thinking more along the lines of the Designated Marksman (DMR) or Infantry Automatic Rifle (IAR) roles. The M1918 was used in the IAR role and was replaced as such by the full-auto M14. This was found to be lacking however as the M14 was (and remains) very hard to control in full-auto use. The IAR role was essentially supplanted by the LMG role in US military doctrine. The M249 (FN Minimi) is the current weapon for that role although the Stoner 63 saw limited use in the Vietnam conflict as both IAR and LMG. The USMC is currently seeking a new IAR to supplant the M249 and is examining many weapons including the LWRC IAR, variants of the Ultimax 100, and other entrants described here under the wikipedia article for Infantry Automatic Rifle. SB Pete (talk) 22:33, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Scavanging

No argument that the Germans scavenged weapons, that was one of the primary things the Waffen-S.S. were trained to do (especially their volunteer regiments). The point that I was making is that when the other side already has better technology their capturing yours is less of a concern. It would be like being afraid that Ferrari will steal a Corvette. Both are nice but Ferrari wouldnt really have anything to gain from it. Save maybe one more car out there, they won't be gaining any remarkable technological advances from it.

Doesn't changet the facts. The German's went to war in 1939 with over a 100 different types of vehicles in inventory, a logistical nightmare, and still made heavy use horse-drawn wagons. They took because they needed the numbers, not because the equipment was particularly good. This would be one of the causes of the German defeat was the lack of logistical cohesion and industrial base to support the war effort for the prolonged period of time. Even by 1944 the Germans were still making use of anything they could scavange from the field to replace the heavy losses. --Thatguy96 21:28, 21 February 2006

You seem to have missed the point of my comment in totality. I am not debating if the germans scavenged or even if they needed to. My point was that there wouldn't be any advantageous gain of technology, by aquiring the BAR. The fact they did aquire them is immaterial, the only gain from doing so is being able to equip one more soldier. The fact they could not produce enough of their advanced technology of course taken into account and acknowledged. Klauth 02:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I did miss your point, though I see it now. However, the fact that it happened regardless means that it should be mentioned in that light. The superiorirty of various weapons depending on doctrine and the like is probably debatable to a degree as well. --Thatguy96 22:50, 21 February 2006

agreed Klauth 07:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean any disrespect but you may all be missing the point. The fear of the Germans capturing a BAR was during WW1, not WW2. DMorpheus 18:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

BARs in Abyssinia

I recently came across a photograph from the Italian invasion of Abyssinia (now Ethiopia). The photo shows two deceased Ethiopian soldiers and what is clearly two early-style (1918) BARs propped up on their position.

Anyone know how BARs ended up in Ethiopia during that period (late 1930s)? The photo in question is in a book; if I could find it online I would provide a link.

How long were they in inventory?

I have a relative who went through USAF basic training in 1977 and was trained on the BAR. Seems like a long time after it would be frontline issue.

Just out of curiousity, how long were they officially in service?

i dont no the exact date it was retired but i no it was probaly retired soon after reltive used it or 80's, but i no it might be still in stocks. they still have original m16

30 Round Magazine?

Was a 30 Round Magazine ever considered?, Im asking becouse it only took 20 rounds which ran out soon. Did the US ever consider adopting the Bren gun in .30-06 Calibre?User:EX STAB

.303 SAA Ball Variant

I seen an M1918 Bar in .303 Calibre, Was this a proposed version for the British before using the bren?User:EX STAB

Civilian BAR Rifles

This article doesn't have a space for the modern BAR civilian rifles. I realize they're not the same thing at all from an engineering perspective, but problematically they have the same name. They don't seem to have their own page either. Suggestions on making a section here, vs a new page, vs some other method? Arthurrh 02:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Ohio Ordnance M1918A3 is included, but you are correct about Browning's current line of BAR hunting rifles. I think a seperate article should be made for those rifles, because they are internally different and are not "M1918"s which should help in disambiguation. -- Thatguy96 03:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

So what should the article title be? Browning BAR (civilian)? With entries on the disambiguation page and small line in this BAR article? Arthurrh 07:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I see that it might not be as easy to do as I might've thought. I was actually thinking Browning Automatic Rifle, but I'm sure that redirects here, and people putting that in would more likely be looking for the M1918 article. I was just thinking about the AR-15 and M16 articles. Hmm, any other ideas? -- Thatguy96 14:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Browning BAR would do nicely. It's got the name of the company first. You could put a disclaimer in both articles cross-directing them. The Browning BAR does deserve a separate article if for no other reason than as a disambiguation.--Asams10 14:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

A World War II veteran told me

A World War II veteran that died last weeak, told me that this weapon was very good to use and shoot, but maintenance was a little dificult.Agre22 (talk) 23:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)agre22

My father used the BAR in combat in New Guinea and the Phillipines in WWII. He won a personal bronze star medal by aggressively fighting a Japanese patrol inflicting several causalties with a BAR so I believe he knew something about it. He used only two weapons in WWII: the BAR if he could get it and the M1 Garand second; he had no use for the .45 pistol, .45 submachinegun, 12 ga trench gun or M1 carbine: if a gun would not shoot through a palm tree trunk and kill the enemy, it was useless for jungle fighting. BAR and Garand would shoot through a tree, the others would not. On patrol, the BAR would be stripped of bipod and any extra accessories and used as a rifle; in bunker or foxhole, the BAR would be used as a light machinegun with bipod and all the accessories bolted back on. Also, the original semi and full auto version was easier for the user to maintain; the slow and fast full auto version often had to be turned over to an armorer for thorough maintenance. The non-replacable (screwed in) barrel hindered sustained fire; my father told me that in the battle at Lone Tree Hill in New Guinea he burned out the barrel of a BAR. Naaman Brown (talk) 02:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The wz. 1928 is a Polish-made version of the Model 1925. The Karabin maszynowy obserwatora wz.37 is a further development, designed to be used as an aircraft-mounted mg. Both guns are already mentioned in detail on the main BAR page. Koalorka (talk) 00:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that they should not be merged because the are two different weapons and they are used in different ways. USN1996 (talk) 02:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It would require a singular effort of significant ignorance to merge these two articles. It would be like merging the RK_62 article into AK-47. One is a derivative, yes, but with significant differences and a unique history. Furthermore this may not be "official" Wiki policy or whatnot, but it harms nothing to have an article for this distinct derivative. If it then returned to significantly alter the BAR's development, then yes, it may be apropos to merge, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that wz.1928's redesign affected the long history of the BAR. --Sctn2labor (talk) 16:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

LOL, you're kidding about merging these two articles, right? You would have to be because that is about as intelligent as merging the m16 article with the AR-180 article. Well, it would be at least close to that dumb. This was a gun built upon the Browning 1918 design but significantly different, in a different caliber, with a different manual of arms, used by a different army. It is also historically significant as the root of NAZI use of the 1918 design. Further, the subject absolutely deserves the length of article it has been given. merging it with the 1918 article would mean compressing it and deleting lots of valuable info. I strongly object to the idea of merging the two and request the merge proposal be deleted immediatelySB Pete (talk) 03:48, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

The wz. 1928

It's very clear that you ahve already adulterated this article with this unfounded, grammatically ignorant article. There is no record of this weapon, and it wasn't already mentioned in the main article, it was put there buy you, with the same poor english that your page has. It's sad what people do to others work. Extensive work went into this page, the least you could have done was to have been honest. The polish couldn't design anything, let alone improve upon an already excellent weapon. And due to the firing mechanics of this weapon, there would be no way to get it to fire 1100 rpm, as well as the fact that it only had a 20 round clip. That is the most ignorant and unsubstantiated claim that could be made. There is a more substantiated article on this subject than your page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.211.187 (talk) 02:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, idiot, you're calling the Polish stupid and inept, let me point out that you don't know that indenting the first line of your post causes it to all end up on one line. Further, you are too stupid to know how to sign your posts. Also, you don't know to capitalize "Polish" and "English", so your grammatical ignorance claim is laughable. Try improving the articles or go away, but at the least, keep your hate away from Wikipedia, please. We're a community. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 04:21, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh my. Just noticed this little gem today. I must say, wow. Koalorka (talk) 13:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Does Nazi Germany belong in the Users list?

The Germans used captured examples of every gun in service with the Allies during WWII; I'm not sure that the BAR is especially notable in that respect unless there's some proof the Germans had a systematic programme in place to rechamber the captured guns to one of their service cartridges (as was done with the PPSh-41) or did something else along those lines with the guns. Thoughts? Commander Zulu (talk) 07:53, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Germany was noted for adopting foreign-made weapons, either captured or made in occupied countries, going so far as to assign model numbers to them. Let's see, Germany occupied FN and FN made the BAR during this time IIRC. Also, I believe there were a few countries in the occupied zone that also issued the BAR. Given the BAR worked better than, well, the Germans didn't have anything in that class, did they? What I'm saying is that it's not dubious and, frankly, I think I've read it in some primary documents and secondary works also. Been a while though. Oh, and they didn't have to rechamber it, necessarily. They had sufficient stocks of .30-06 IIRC as well. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 14:34, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

That's fair enough; I just wasn't sure if the BAR was one of the many, many "foreign" guns the Germans had assigned a model number to (which was pretty much every gun used by anyone involved in WWII) or if they did actually recognise it as a semi-issue combat weapon. Seeing is it's quite likely the latter, then there's no problem. :) Commander Zulu (talk) 02:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I've checked the book, "Rock in a Hard Place", by James L. Ballou, showed that 839 BARs were marked through FN to Europe, most in 6.5x55mm but 39 of them were in 7.92mm Mauser(also used by the Polish). FN then took over production and made 10,000 rifles for the Polish in 1929 and 1930. This rifle, the wz.28, featured a pistol grip and was chambered in, of course, 7.92x57mm. This was presumably a metric pattern gun, much like the wz.30, however it is not perfectly clear that the conversion was done prior to the wz.28 contract. Dieudonné Saive oversaw production of the wz.28 though he does not appear to have been involved in its development or production engineering. Saive designed a rate reducer for the wz.30. The wz.30 used by Belgium and exorted to Sweeden in 6.5 caliber and Ethiopia and China in 7.92mm. The German designation was the Maschinengewehr 127(b). The later FN model D, had a removable barrel. It, too, was captured and used by the Germans as the Maschinengewehr-Lafette 127 (b). So, if the Polish had 10,000 of them and FN was producing them up till the point they were overrun... and were tooled to produce them in 7.92mm, it seems more than likely that they were actually used. There were confirmed reports that the Japanese used the FN wz.30 during WWII. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 04:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, that seems a pretty solid case for Nazi Germany remaining as a user, although from my own readings it would seem production on most "captured" guns stopped when the Germans over-ran their respective armouries; I've seen several sources state that the Browning Hi-Power was the only small arm produced and used by both sides during WWII. The Japanese had knock-offs of all sorts of stuff, to be fair- their LMGs and MMGs were copies of the the Lewis and Hotchkiss guns (the ammo was even interchangeable)- so it doesn't surprise me that they had some wz.30s acquired from somewhere as well. Commander Zulu (talk) 04:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

A scan shows that later in the book, actual use by the Germans is described at length. The Polish made an undisclosed number of guns following their 10,000 order. Sweeden, Finland, Poland, and Belgium all ordered the guns and Japan, Russia, and Germany all used captured weapons in correspondingly greater numbers. No confirmation that they made the BAR under occupation, but why not? The lesson is that I should actually find time to read some of the books I've accumulated in the last, well, there's lots of books. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 04:28, 17 February 2009 (UTC)