Talk:Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam/Archive 10

Introduction

This article appears biased and seems to serve largely as an anti-Tamil platform. It is a good example of the weakness of the Wikipedia project. Perhaps a we could find a few respected historians of the conflict to do a complete re-write.

That's because the Tamil Tigers are a bunch of cunts. ;)

Why am I not allowed to say in the introduction what I said a couple days ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam&diff=185707373&oldid=185698024 . I wanted to include the recent terrorist attack on the bus and to change that ridiculous introduction that the LTTE are "militant seperatists". They are terrorists pure and simply. If it was other way round and a Sri Lankan went onto the Al Qaeda article and told americans they could not call AQ terrorists then there would be uproar would there not? --Ismailmk (talk) 11:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Introduction was subject to mediation agreed after deep discussion and debate.Further even today the LTTE is not banned in Sri Lanka and is a legal outfit .Further the Sri Lankan government and International community have considered the LTTE as the representive of the Tamil people hence conducted peace talks with them as a equal partner.If they were pure terrorists the Sri Lankan government would never have negotiated with them for ending the Sri Lankan civil war like the USA will never negotiate with Al qaeda.For example the JVP was a terrorist outfit today it is part of the Sri Lankan parliament.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 00:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Mr.X: LTTE are freedom fighters who have given their entire lives to tamil eelam. You, Ismailmk think because your freinds were killed, LTTE are evil. The Sri Lanken goverment gas bombed Vanni the other day, but you ignore it. Muslims told on the LTTE movements so they were eradicated. Muslims suck up to the winning side and India have their own interests at heart. Anyone resisting the goverment seems to be terrorists in your book, but I bet that if your family were killed by Sri Lanka you would jump onto their side! This isn't a case of whats right to you, it's who hurts you, and you refuse to see justice! You care only of your freinds, however, I bet you have seen tamil children dieing everywhere! But they mean nothing to you, so you ignore them. I may only be 12 years old, but I have the political worlds measure better than you have. Your selfish, plain and simple. LTTE are freedom fighters, plain and simple... And don't give me " your young, you've grown up listening to LTTE". Muslimes just jump onto the winning side, that much I know, along with how tamil eelam WILL BE WON. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmiltte (talk • contribs) 09:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

LTTE is terrorist organisation. Resisting LTTE is Sri Lanka's war on terror. How will you like it if I was to go to Al Qaeda article and call them a "resistance movement". Three of my friend were injured in a bombing by your "representative of the Tamil people" and another killed. Do you understand that? Ismailmk (talk) 10:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI: Your representative claims that it wasn't here. Wiki Raja (talk) 11:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI AGAIN! First, President says there is the possibility of other Tamil groups being involved. It is still most likely that LTTE were responsible. Second - I did not vote for that party. Third - I support the Tamil nationalist movement just not through violence. Fourth - my own wife is Tamil. Wiki Raja you are American Tamil and I don't think it is fair that you sit at your computer in a country in thousands of miles around the world telling me and the Sri Lankan and Tamil people that the group who has murdered their countrymen is legitimate. --Ismailmk (talk) 20:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI: First, can you or anyone show proof of accusation? Second, you are entitled to your opinions. Third, you can do what ever you want. Fourth, the former head of Tamileelam police is married to a Sinhalese, does that make him pro-government? Lastly, please refrain from stereotyping me. Thank you. Wiki Raja (talk) 23:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Ismail, are you in distress because of the death of your friends? Well I am sorry to hear. I am also distressed about the SLA terrorist vandura running around raping my sisters, kidnapping and killing my brothers, occupying my family members houses. Killing the young ones. If you want to hate LTTE for what they do to civilians, then you must hate the SLA/SLN/SLAF vandura too ! I hope there is peace to Srilanka through the liberation of Tamil Eelam. You should too !!!Watchdogb (talk) 14:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW is your wife the daughter of Douglas or Karuna ? Watchdogb (talk) 14:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The line "The LTTE is currently proscribed as a terrorist organization by 31 countries (see list)" in the inro had been removed. I'm reverting that edit as no valid reason is given here for that change, and there seems to be nothing wrong or against wikipedia regulations in that line. Please change it back if that line was removed for any valid reason. Chamal (talk) 12:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

       MR.X: LTTE ae freedom fighters. If Ismailmk is upset that three of his friends died, then think of Vanni, where Sri-Lanka AND india attack mercilessly, the U.N going as far as to say that Vanni will get hurt more if LTTE dont lay arms. Tamils are undermined in Sri-Lanka compared to Sinhalla people there.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.149.116 (talk) 19:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 

THE PAGE NEEDS EDITING -PRO SRI LANKAN NEWS SHOULD BE REMOVED

Alleged Links to other designated terrorist organizations - NEEDS TO BE REMOVED ASAP

-ENCYCLOPEIA ARE ALWAYS BASED ON FACTS

- Alleged pro SRI LANKAN TERRORIST GOVERMENT NEWS SHOULD BE REMOVED —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.138.143.108 (talk) 22:01, 27 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.138.143.108 (talk) 02:30, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• I reverted 2 resent changes to the Introduction, because one removed content without rewording and made no sense as it stood, and the second was simply a correction to the spelling of one word from the previous content removal. I have no position on this article and only reverted so if a change is warranted, then it should be changed in such a way as to make it still readable and understandable to the readership.--«JavierMC»|Talk 08:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

The current introduction does not maintain impartiality or neutrality at all. It states, "The LTTE is currently wrongly proscribed as a terrorist organization by 32 countries (see list)." It is not up to this article or Wikipedia to determine the nature of the LTTE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.219.197.172 (talk) 20:54, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Category purge

In mid-January all categories were removed from the article. Has nobody noticed? __meco (talk) 20:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

into

Would it be ok to make a link to Tamil Eelam since that is what they are trying to create ? --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 14:25, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course! Watchdogb (talk) 17:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Child Soldier section

I am proposing to remove some parts of the Child Soldier section. I am proposing the removal of several sentences and remove old material. For example, there are claim on the how many Child soldier LTTE had in 2001 and many claims from the past. However, it is clear that LTTE has reduced it's child recruits drastically since then. I , therefore, propose we change the current revision to the following :

The LTTE has recruited and used Child Soldiers in it's fight against the Sri Lankan Army. The LTTE was accused of having up to 5,794 child soldiers in it's ranks since 2001.. However, since 2007 LTTE has pleaded that it will release all of the recruits under the age of 18 before the end of the year. As a result, on 18 June 2007, the LTTE released 135 children under the age of 18. UNICEF claims that only 506 child recruits remain under the LTTE. UNICEF and the United States note that there has been a significant drop in LTTE recruitment of children . Furthermore, a report released by the LTTE's Child Protection Authority (CPA) in 2008 reported that only less than 40 child soldiers, under the age of 18, still remain in their forces.

The LTTE argues that instances of child recruitment occurred mostly in the east, under the purview of former LTTE regional commander Colonel Karuna. After leaving the LTTE and forming the TMVP, it is alleged Karuna continues to forcibly kidnap and induct child soldiers. Its official position is that earlier, some of its cadres erroneously recruited volunteers in their late teens. It says that its official policy is now that it will not accept child soldiers. It also says that some underage youth lie about their age and are therefore allowed to join, but are sent back home to their parents as soon as they are discovered to be underage.

I feel that having extended coverage of the past on this matter is not WP:NPOV. This is because the LTTE has decided to stop the inclusion of Children in it's rank and therefore we need to focus on the current situation rather than the past. However, I did include some facts from the past so that the reader can get the necessary insight into this matter. Watchdogb (talk) 20:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Moving the sea piracy

I have moved a large chunk of the MV Farah III section to Sea Tigers and shortened and integrated the section into the other section. Any objectives ? Watchdogb (talk) 18:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Human Smuggling

I am proposing to remove the human smuggling part from this article. The particular section claims that the human smuggling is done under permission by the LTTE but it also claims that there is no proof that the LTTE benifits from it. It is false to claim that since human smuggling goes under LTTE permission that LTTE smuggles humans. For this subsection to be in the LTTE article there needs be a direct relationship between human smuggling and the LTTE. Namely some sort of proof that LTTE benefits from this act or proof that current members of the LTTE is smuggling Human to other countries. Since no such link is provided and there is even claim that there is no evidence that LTTE benefits from human smuggling I think it is best to have this off the article per WP:NPOV, WP:DUE and WP:TOPIC. Watchdogb (talk) 15:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Assassination

The current section called Assassination lists victims of assignations that are attributed to LTTE. I am proposing to shorten this section substantially and mention the following:

The LTTE has been accused by various groups for assassination of political opponents and military opponents. The victims include both Tamil moderates, Tamil paramilitary groups and Sinhalese people. Most notably the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi and Ranasinghe Premadasa who were the heads of India and Sri Lanka respectively.

The reason for this action is that these assassinations are covered in three places already. 1) The article of the assassinated people 2) List of Attacks attributed to LTTE 3)Notable assassinations of the Sri Lankan Civil War. Since these three article already mention who the assassins are, or at least the attributed assassins, it becomes redundant and repetitive. Watchdogb (talk) 14:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Pilferage of tsunami donations

his section is cited almost exclusively by a report of a case that is still in process in Australia. Couple of ethnic Tamil men were being charged for connection with LTTE and duping people thinking of aiding Tsunami into funding LTTE. The problem is that these are allegation and no court ruling has been made. Since the defense denies that they are members of LTTE or funding for them I believe that it is not suitable in the LTTE article. This section is not suitable since this is under the broad Criminal Activity. Since there is no court ruling that they are members of LTTE and guilty of the charges we cannot have this claim under the current section and more importantly in this article. If the case ruling is that they are guilty, then I think we could have this on this article. Watchdogb (talk) 20:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you raise a good point in that it may be premature to include an entire paragraph on this incident at this time. Perhaps the information could be retained but shortened to a single sentence mentioning the ongoing case in Australia, which could be placed at the end of the first paragraph of the "Criminal activities" section. Black Falcon ^(Talk) 06:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Would the following be acceptable under "Criminal activities" section:

Two Tamils in Australia are facing charges for allegedly raising thousands of dollars in Australia under the pretense of being for charities and aid for those affected by the 2004 Asian Tsunami but instead using the money to fund the LTTE. The case is still in process at a Australian court.

Watchdogb (talk) 13:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I think so: it captures the essence of the paragraph and does not give undue weight to a single (as yet unresolved) incident. Black Falcon ^(Talk) 17:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The article will be modified with this version. Thanks for your thoughts once again. Watchdogb (talk) 17:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I also believe that the same concern above can be expressed to the following sentence:

In 2007 the New York Police Department arrested a number of LTTE operatives who were planning to use stolen credit card information to steal $250,000 in New York City, and tens of millions more from ATMs worldwide. Overall, Jane's Intelligence Review reported that the LTTE raise up to $300 million a year through various methods, including international credit card fraud and extortion of Tamil expatriates.

The article claims that these people are tiger operative but that is only what the prosecutors claim. The defense lawyers claim that this is not an international fraud deal, instead they suggest that this is a small scale crime. Would it be fair to handle this sentence as above? Watchdogb (talk) 17:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

In this case, perhaps it would be sufficient to add the word "alleged" before "LTTE operatives". This source seems to indicate that the incident is being considered in the context of a broader international crime ring (e.g. according to the Assistant DA, the "defendant is part of a large, highly organized ring of international criminals"). Black Falcon ^(Talk) 17:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Would the following be a sufficient and WP:NPOV version of the case:

In 2007 the New York Police arrested a number of individuals who were allegedly planning to use stolen credit card information to steal $250,000 in New York City. The prosecutes claim that they were also planning to steal tens of millions more from ATMs worldwide. The prosecutes further alleged that these individuals had LTTE links. However, the defense lawyers deny these claim and insist that they were local criminals.

This does deviate from the citation but I clearly can see that the writers of the article made some OR and claimed interpreted the prosecutors claim to call these people tiger operatives. The part about Janes defense claim will be integrated into other sentence in the section. Is this acceptable version ? Watchdogb (talk) 18:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Watchdogb, I would say adding the word "alleged" should be sufficient (as User:Black Falcon had suggested). I would also include the sentance about the defense lawyers indicating that these men were in fact local criminals. Thanks! --Lucifereri (talk) 09:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The following captures the essence of allegation and then it also gives the defense claim.

A numbers of individuals, arrested in 2007, are facing charges for allegedly planning to use stolen credit cards information to steal $250,000. The prosecutes claim that they were also planning to steal tens of millions more from ATMs worldwide. The prosecutes further alleged that these individuals had LTTE links. However, the defense lawyers deny these claim and insist that they were local criminals

This is a version that seems most neutral to me and thus most acceptable.Watchdogb (talk) 14:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello again Watchdogb, I see that you have taken the liberty to edit the article with this version; I disagree that this version is more neutral--I find it much more confusing. This paragraph is in the "Criminal Activities" section, and it is extremely odd to start it off this way and not even mention that the accused individuals are also accused of having ties with the LTTE until after the first two sentances! I feel that these sentances lead the reader away from the accusations (which are the most important reason why are they are on this page at all), but that is my take. What was wrong with adding the word alleged and then the sentance about the defense lawyers denying they were LTTE operatives afterwards? That would have been completely neutral (saying something is more neutral or not should not be the argument...it should be about both neutrality and clarity IMO). Thanks! --Lucifereri (talk) 09:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

What was wrong with adding the word alleged and then the sentance about the defense lawyers denying they were LTTE operatives afterwards? There is nothing wrong with that but I do not understand what it really means. Can you put forth a sentence like I did above? If we agree this is more neutral, then we can add it instead of the current version. Your claim is not correct to me. The fact that these are allegations and a court case is pending is enough to completely remove this sentence from this article as it's under criminal section of LTTE even though the defense says that this is not correct. By the mere appearance of the sentence on this article under the section establishes link to LTTE which is only an accusations. It's currently pointless to argue over this until you show your version. If we agree to this, then we can have that added instead of what is currently there. Watchdogb (talk) 13:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Arrests in the UK

Three arrests in the UK --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7372883.stm. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 11:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This again is an arrest on suspicion. Furthermore, they are being interrogated. I believe that it would be better if we allow some time to see what develops of this story. Watchdogb (talk) 13:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. If this turns into something concrete or high-profile, it can be included in the article; until then, it's probably not significant enough to merit mention. Black Falcon ^(Talk) 02:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The "Human smuggling" Section

Human smuggling has ben conducted by the Tamil Tigers for many long years. It is in my belief not t erase the section of human smuggling. As watch dog claims that there are no facts in to the subject of human smuggling done by the Tamil Tigers I am sorry to say there is much & enough proof that he Tigers profit in these smuggling. This has been a very resourceful way of gathering funds to fight against the Sri lankan forces. So I insist not to tamper on clear proof and fact for the benefit of the Tigers. --Slcommandor (talk) 14:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

This is a serious claim, and we need reliable sources to include something like this in the article. I think Watchdogb's comments are valid here. The intention here is to preserve NPOV rather than whitewashing the LTTE. From an outsider's point of view who doesn't know anything about the Sri Lankan conflict or LTTE, he wouldn't know if this is true or not. We can't ask readers to come to logical conclusions like "LTTE needs money for war, and they get money from human smuggling", we have to provide sources that can verify this. Wikipedia is not a place to make accusations or allegations, and that's what it would look like if it was included. Your points are no doubt true (in fact I share your belief), but we can't include what we think in Wikipedia. I think if this is to be included it should be backed by reliable sources, or it shouldn't be included at all. Chamal ^Talk 15:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Glorifying or NPOV?

I have just reverted this edit, and I'm posting this here because this seems to be a problem we come across often. The idea here is not to glorify the LTTE, but to present the facts in a neutral point of view, one of the core policies of Wikipedia. It can't be helped if what we see here is not to our liking or against our views. All views have to be included in a Wikipedia article. We can't say that LTTE are murderers or LTTE are freedom fighters, what we have to say here is something acceptable by both those views. The lead section has been created through consensus to represent such an idea, and before changing that please discuss it here. Chamal ^talk 11:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Who supports the LTTE?

It's obvious that the LTTE must be receiving massive amounts of aid -weapons and money- from outside sources, but I have been unable to find out from who. As far as I can tell the resources flow from India, but one person I talked to said it's not "official" covert support from the central indian government, but rather donations from wealthy individial tamils in India (and possibly from the local government of Tamil Nadu). Can anyone shed light on this, and why, if so, India have not tried to stop this flow? The Man On The Street (talk) 09:33, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Many Sinhala Buddhists allege it is Christian groups (its a fact that most of the leaders are Christian, and Sinhala claim Christians have been far less affected than Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists). Tamils claim their own diaspora supports them (and there is evidence to show that Tamil smuggling and enterprises are worth billions of dollars. That's what I've heard.Pectore^talk 18:17, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

De facto territory

Tamil Eelam territorial claim (green) and approximate de facto territory prior to recent hostilities (yellow)

I'm proposing to add the de facto territory based on a map I found,[1]. Given all the notices on this article I'll ask here: is this an accurate depiction from the time of the cease-fire? (I have no expertise on this topic beyond looking up the map on Google...)

As a side issue, I think both this article and the Tamil Eelam article should borrow one another's images, because the census data listed and the territory picture give very different impressions from one another. Wnt (talk) 18:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I think this picture will confuse readers more than it will help in the understanding. Watchdogb (talk) 17:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I think such a map should be added as otherwise any new reader will thnk that the LTTE controls 2/3 of the coutries coast line whereas it is currently limited to a jungle area of only 40sq km and will soon be a thing of the past. So such a map showing the actual territory they control should be listed.Kerr avon (talk) 02:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The map will have to constantly updated though, right? Chamal ^talk 02:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

At the rate the Sri lankan army is liberating the north from the terrorists the map will have to be updated very fast indeed. Taking for example even the illustrated map contains a area far too larger than which is under LTTE control. Currently the ltte is limited to a strech of around 40 sqkm.Kerr avon (talk) 09:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Aside from the soap from kerr avon, one clear problem arises with this map. If we were to include the de facto territory it will change constantly as a result of current war. The problem is that both sides to the conflict are know to give different picture of the area under their control. So taking one side's story will result in the picture being non-neutral. Besides I really do not see a section in this article that this picture would fit into besides the administration section, but then the the picture would give the wrong idea that everything under the de facto territories would have all of the rebel's administrative entities. Watchdogb (talk) 18:53, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

As I said in the legend, this illustrates the area prior to current hostilities - it was from an American source with unknown affinities, though generally most people here really don't have much of an opinion on the conflict. I wasn't actually very clear on how long a period that represents; I was only looking to have some benchmark to consider when evaluating the progress of the war. Also note that while illustrating the de facto territory can be seen as "anti" Tamil because it disagrees with the green area, it is also "pro" Tamil in that it illustrates that they actually have a territory and aren't just a bunch of roaming militants. In any case note that the distance between the implications of the ethnic map and the green territory map in the two articles is much greater than the distance between various versions of the currently held de facto territory... Wnt (talk) 03:14, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a great idea: Since the current de facto territory seems plausible, and nobody claims that it is very much bigger than the yellow area, I think that generally such a map, with correct date and reference, would undoubtetly be an improvement for this article. However, the problem I see is that OPFOR is not a reliable source - it's basically just a blog. So, this depends on finding reliable sources for the statement that the current area is approximately the one marked in the map. — Sebastian 01:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree the map will improve the article, as long as it is placed in the area that covers the 01-08 ceasefire and clearly indicates this is not the current situation. A caption like a "Areas controlled by the LTTE at the time of the signing of the 2001 ceasefire. Since then, they have lost a significant portion of this area" would work.

As to its accuracy, the LTTE actually controlled a larger portion of the country during the CFA. To the north, the yellow region terminates at the bottleneck. However they controlled area up to Muhamalai, about 15 km from the bottleneck. Towards the south, the government had control of a "bulge" like area along the A9 highway. This map pretty accurately shows the area (the blue dotted line to the south) I know its from the Defence Ministry, but I don't think any reasonably minded person doubts it's accuracy. And the LTTE controlled area in the east of the country as well, places like Sampur, Vakarai, and the Thoppigala jungles. The problem is, this wasn't a continuous stretch of land and there were no clear FDLs in most places, so its hard to know exactly what parts they controlled. As yet, I've yet to see an accurate map for that.

Also, don't be mislead by maps like this [2]. It has, to an extent exaggerated the area controlled by the LTTE, to play up the significance of the military offensives.--snowolfD4 ^{( talk / @ )} 08:13, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry about how to defend using defence.lk as a source. This can be easily solved by attribution, such as "according to SL Min. of Defense". Their version of the map is certainly relevant; and it is not necessary for us to assess how reliable they are. I bet even with the method applied by the CIA, we would have problems assessing that! — Sebastian 10:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Administration

The administration section has been faced with some removed of cited material. This is clearly against wikipedia rules and further against the rule established by SLDR. So do not remove cited material from this section. At the same time it is understandable that editors might want to remove the section because with the fall of the administrative capital most of the de-facto administration has been dismantled. The point here is that while the administrative entities might not exist today it does not mean that it never existed or that it will never be reestablished. I revered the removal and added that the administration has been dismantled. Watchdogb (talk) 17:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Please also do not remove the "runs a defacto..." part in the infobox. This is clearly against SLDR because it is removal of a cited material. If you can give some RS that clearly state that they do not run a defacto state any more, then please present it. Bringing source that claim that their administrative entities have been dismantled does not cut it. There is difference between running a de facto state and running administrative entities. Running a de facto state could be, as said by many RS sources, as simple as directing the civilians. There has not been a single RS that claims that all of the LTTE entities have collapsed - by all I mean things such as the LTTE police force and ect. So unless there is a reference that claims that the LTTE does not run a defacto state, then you cannot remove this information without violating SLDR. Watchdogb (talk) 18:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Attacks on civilians

I have reverted part of these edits that were saying that LTTE has not attacked civilians. The LTTE has attacked civilian buses, how can anyone say they have not attacked civilians? Anyway, I have added some info with the best sources I could find. I have tried to keep it neutral, but since the part is only about the attacks, there isn't much to be done there. If anyone can improve it, they will be welcome. Please discuss here before adding any more unsourced information. Cheers. Chamal ^talk 05:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct. The LTTE would not be considered a terrorist group had they not substantially attacked civilians. We must stay vigilant against unsourced or biased information on both sides.Pectore^talk 06:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Edit restrictions will be enforced; quoting from dispute resolution agreement

This article has a blue box prominently on top, saying "This article is currently subject to editing restrictions". This has been grossly ignored. Unfortunately, we let that pass for quite a while. This is going to change from now on. There will be zero tolerance of violations of WP:POINT, WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, SOCKS, MEAT and WP:BATTLE and edit warring. Violations will be dealt with swiftly and harsher than normal. — Sebastian 04:51, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

There were several edits since yesterday. - Summary:

• blocked for repeated vandalism: 99.228.164.238 (talk · contribs · WHOIS);
• warned for ignoring blue box and for adding unsourced text: 76.90.65.51 (talk · contribs · WHOIS);
• just friendly warning: 67.186.227.139 (talk · contribs · WHOIS).

— Sebastian 05:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Current state of LTTE

Due to the Sri Lanka Army continuous march to northern LTTE stronghold the situation of northern Sri Lanka completely changed. Army gain control over LTTE administrative capital and all other important townships. Although LTTE still control small land strip of length 40km that part of the island largely covered by jungle.

So at the moment LTTE is not being able to run its any civil administration activity. So, I suggest removing or editing the information what are not match with the current situation. Otherwise the readers can be misguided.

It can be affect to the reputation of the WIKIPEDIA.

Due to the successful SLDF offensive and due to the high alert of SLN and SLAF, LTTE sea and air branched are not possess a state to functional. So, I want to remove or edit that part of the page too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sameera Dayasekara (talk • contribs) 15:05, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this up here. I think completely deleting would not be appropriate, even if the LTTE were overthrown completely, as it still would have historical value. Therefore, the content may need to be revised accordingly. That requires a bit more work. For now, I will post a template on top of that section to alert readers and editors of that situation. — Sebastian 21:16, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

sea tigers

It looks the reader will be misguided by the wording used under this paragraph.

I propose to use the wording of the sea tiger main article with out changes.

" Over the years the Sea Tigers have sunk at least 29 Sri Lankan small inshore patrol boats " —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sameera Dayasekara (talk • contribs) 08:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Each of the two could probably profit from the other. At first glance, I don't think we should toss out the 35-50% estimate; it is quoted in the Observer Research Foundation's publication http://www.tamilnation.org/intframe/india/0609observer.pdf as "A recent publication of the Woodrow Wilson School of Politics and International Studies reckons that the ‘Sea Tigers’ have destroyed 35 to 50 per cent of the Sri Lankan Navy’s coastal craft." I haven't searched for that publication, but I don't have a reason to distrust ORF, and I presume the school is the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs, I think is a reliable source. — Sebastian 00:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

A publication from Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs is reliable and so the sentence should remain. Furthermore, since both sources are reliable there is no need for the sentence to be an explicitly attributed either. Watchdogb (talk) 17:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Organisation and activities - Military

First of all I need to say sorry, becouse i have edit the content under the above headline without prier indication on the talkpage. Im still too fresh to the procedures adopted by the wikipedia.

But adding "It is believed that the LTTE’s sea and air branches were not in an operational state due to the recent setbacks of the organization. The carders of these units were believed to be relocated at the ground defensive units due to the lack of manpower. However, some elements of sea tigers reported continuing with arms smuggling and drug trafficking" I'm trying to explain the current ground situation.

Anybody can find some informations regarding that from following links.

http://209.85.175.132/search?q=cache:PYaRZCmZrjsJ:www.defence.lk/new.asp%3Ffname%3D20070823_05+drug+trafficking+of+ltte&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=lk

http://www.dailymirror.lk/DM_BLOG/Sections/frmNewsDetailView.aspx?ARTID=36268

Thanks for your speedy responce Sebastian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sameera Dayasekara (talk • contribs) 09:16, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

None of these sources back your claims. You have to source every single claim that you make in wikipedia. Watchdogb (talk) 15:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Also please do not change cited material to reflect your point of view like you did here

Alternative way to protect this article

Please see WT:SLR#Alternative way to protect LTTE article. — Sebastian 02:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Recent edit

In my recent edit, I have reverted some controversial edits that have not been discussed. Please respect the SLDR edit restriction and discuss all controversial edits. Thanks Watchdogb (talk) 05:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Romanization of "தமிழீழ விடுதலைப் புலிகள்"?

Could somebody provide a romanization of "தமிழீழ விடுதலைப் புலிகள்" (that is writing "தமிழீழ விடுதலைப் புலிகள்" in the Latin alphabet)? moocowsrule^{talk to moo} 01:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

tamiḻii ḻa viṭutalaippulikaḷ
cheers Jasy jatere (talk) 13:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Territory map

The territory map given in this section seemed to be erroneous, as pointed out here by Iross1000. It does not show the territory controlled by the LTTE as given in the caption, but shows the territory controlled by the LTTE before the start of the 2008–2009 Sri Lankan Army Northern offensive. I have changed the caption to indicate this. The map here shows that this is the case (this map is also used as the current source for the territory map) - see the "Offensive time line" given there. Cheers. Chamal ^talk 12:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Articles by Jenvey

Jenvey's articles are published mostly in Asian Tribune articles, but also in Global Politician (unclassed in the Project's list of sources). The Asian Tribune is classed QS, and while not a reliable source, none-the-less a source to be considered when supported by other resources. Given that anyone who passionately criticizes either side in the dispute will immediately draw counter-fire, it's not surprising that Jenvey has vocal critics. However, before applying a blanket condemnation every statement by Jenvey, the Project should first reach consensus on that decision. Meanwhile, Jenvey's material should stand on its own depending on other credible sources.

As an example, I believe the Project's consensus is that the Sri Lankan Ministry of Defense is a qualified QS. However, if the information cited is troop movements, etc., there is probably no better source. As one of the combatants, the Ministry is likely to "spin" in the government's favor. Information from the Ministry needs to be tested for credibility against other sources. But can the Project, in fairness, ignore the Sri Lankan government — or the LTTE? I ask for consensus before blanket condemnation of Jenvey. --Mtd2006 (talk) 15:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Explanation of reverts on 06:55, 15 February 2009

I have restored the article to an earlier version, since there seems to be a lot of biased content added afterwards. Rather than discussing first about the changes, I thought it would be best to be bold and revert, since the article content had become so obviously biased against the LTTE that it would be a major violation of WP:NPOV and would also give a bad impression about Wikipedia's neutrality to anyone reading it. Also, some sourced information had been removed, and some unsourced information also added. Please note that articles should be verifiable and it is best to discuss the removal of sourced content before doing it. If any of the information needs to be re-added to the article, please back them up with reliable sources and please discuss any major changes here before making them. Chamal ^talk 07:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

"Maritime Intelligence Group,"

what is this organization? Is it notable? I get 377 google hits for it (with " "), most of which are lobbywatch sites. They do not appear to have a website of their own, nor does anybody really seem to care about their political views. Unless other evidence is brought along, I think we can remove their opinions because they are not notable. (I have more google hits than they, and my opinions are definitely not notable) Jasy jatere (talk) 09:25, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The Westminster Journal article is cited a lot! The journal article mentions the Maritime Intelligence Group. We're relying on the credibility of the Journal and the author of the article, Dominic Whiteman, for the accuracy of these statements. News items as references are always tricky, eh? --Mtd2006 (talk) 10:14, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

the westminsterjournal (which I have finally managed to access) cannot be relied on for its credibility, this is the point. No history of fact-checking, no reputation. As for the credentials of Dominic Whiteman, refer to his page here. I think what he says has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. It is not sufficient for WP:V that Mr Whiteman cites reports of organizations whose existence is solely known to him. Jasy jatere (talk) 11:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Norwegians against terrorism

This seems to be a one-man-show.

"Reference is made to an article in The Sunday Times on Sunday 15 April 2007 concerning totally unfounded claims that Norway was supporting terrorism by a Norwegian who calls himself Norwegians Against Terrorism."[3]

As such, it seems that it is not notable. Falk Rovik was a former board member of AI Oslo chapter [4]. Not sure whether this is enought to warrant inclusion of his opinion.

Unless more evidence for the notability of the person or the organization can be found, I think their opinions are not notable and can be deletedJasy jatere (talk) 09:34, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

AI distantiate themselves from Rovik [5] Jasy jatere (talk) 10:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The bit about Norwegians Against Terrorism comes from a Westminster Journal article. The Journal article mentions Rovik as one source of information. The paragraph also cites Interpol, a police investigation, and similar problems in the UK. Rovik isn't the sole source of information, but he's conveniently named at the start of the paragraph, so I suspect an editor triggered on him. --Mtd2006 (talk) 10:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I cannot access the westminsterjournal article, and I am not sure whether it meets RS. I have asked for an assessment on WP:SLR talk. Jasy jatere (talk) 10:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

You can't? I just did… twice. Here's a direct link: The Ltte Siding With The Enemy. And yes, the Journal needs an assessment. I have others for assessment. I'll add to your WP:SLR talk item if that's easy for you. --Mtd2006 (talk) 10:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Missing from the acticle?

What level of support, as a percentage, does the LTTE draw from the people in the contested area(s)?

What sort of government would one expect the LTTE to establish if they achieved independence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.110.142 (talk) 09:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Update?

Is there any particular section that needs to be updated. Pointing out the specific section will help rather than tagging the whole article. --snowolfD4 ^{( talk / @ )} 20:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Do readers really need to see the banner

Can the editing restrictions banner be moved to an editnotice? What does it serve non-editing readers or editors looking for something to do?--Ipatrol (talk) 00:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting suggestion. I'll bring this up at WT:SLR. We'll see what others think. Chamal ^talk 01:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Recent edit

I have made this edit removing material related to Tamil's being arrest in Australia. The Terrorism charges have been dropped see RS for further details. As I said before, we should have waited to put this up on the article. Watchdogb (talk) 23:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Suicide bombings "pioneered"

Not by the LTTE as it shows clearly in Suicide_bombing#History, so please stop pushing your POV. --Mista-X (talk) 15:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Read the citations, and Wikipedia is not a reliable source. That said, the Wikipedia entry does NOT contradict the fact that the LTTE pioneered suicide bombing as a tactic. --snowolfD4 ^{( talk / @ )} 15:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

It is to be noted that Mista-X has shown his bias and intentions with the following edit [6] in which he criticies the LTTE article has being "pro-imperialist propaganda". getting back to the topic it is to be noted that the LTTE is described in several cites as the terrorist group which pioneered suicide bombing so it should stay as it is.Kerr avon (talk) 16:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Who cares what I said? Why is that relevant to the fact, which, I am clearly showing? You can point to your "sources" all you want who are bias on their own, but you have to be ignorant to actually believe what you are saying. It's very clear that this tactic has been around for a long time and is hardly something "pioneered" by LTTE. Your citations are just written opinions by someone else with a POV. Since when does POV prove a better citation then historical fact on wikipedia? It's clear that anti-LTTE bias is vanguard this article. However I won't waist my time with this any longer as anyone with a slight of intelligence will spot such a farce of an error. --Mista-X (talk) 22:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

BTW, the sources are not academic, they are journalistic opinions, two of them are Zionist propaganda. The other is some pacifist crap. Not even notable journalists. The ADL is a semi-notable org. Very poor work. --Mista-X (talk) 22:35, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. They don't show any "pioneering" of this tactic. On the other hand, history shows these tactics have been used long before LTTE existed, even in Sri Lanka and among Tamils. One could argue pacifists monks used such a "tactic" by burning themselves also. --Mista-X (talk) 22:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

As Kerr avon mentioned, we do not use Wikipedia as a source to verify facts. If you think the article is biased, you're welcome to improve it but please do remember that replacing one bias with another can hardly be called improving. It is true that suicide attacks have been used before by others, but the LTTE was the first to use it in the modern context, using suicide jackets. Now, since you're saying that the present ref is not good enough, how about these:

• http://www.fbi.gov/page2/jan08/tamil_tigers011008.html
• http://www.cfr.org/publication/9242/
• http://www.thehindu.com/2008/01/12/stories/2008011258500100.htm
• http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htterr/articles/20090118.aspx

The FBI and CFR pages are clearly RS, and they clearly mention that the LTTE pioneered the modern use of suicide bombers and invented the suicide belt. I will reword the article to include this information. Chamal ^talk 02:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Role of India in anti-terrorism activities

These articles might be of relevance to the topic:

• Without India's support defeating terrorism would not be easy, Sri Lanka government says
• India played major role in bringing down terrorism: Sri Lanka

--128.211.201.161 (talk) 06:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Use of suicide bombings.

The article states that the Tigers have used more suicide bombings than every Islamist terror organization combined. However, the source for this is from 2002-- before Al Qaeda's massive suicide bombing campaign in Iraq. (Though the Tigers have also done attacks since.) Can somebody please do some research and see if this statistic is still true? 173.49.67.73 (talk) 21:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Partisan Sources

there are many partisan sources being used in this article, neither pro rebel or anti rebel sources should be used in wikipedia, Please deal with this, I'll do what I can but we need better more reliable sources. --Alex Kolsov (talk) 04:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Please see here for the reasons for using these sources where appropriate. And please do not remove properly sourced information as you did here. The information you removed were not using partisan sources. Please discuss at WT:SLR if you think changes are necessary about the sources. Chamal ^talk 11:38, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Unilateral actions

I find that the link I have given has been removed under the guise of "Rmv comment with link to self published opinion piece, irrelevant to the development of the article" Well, may I point out that the main article given here is not at all following the standards of Wikipedia and is more or less self-opiniated insipid ideas. For example, the very definition of 'Terrorist organisation' is only a unilateral view and definition of the writer. He has not right to categorically take a partisan stance. I am giving a link to an article in the Yahoo, which I have not rewritten. See who should be defined as Terrorist:Tamil civilians died like flies. As to misusing Wikipedia, I would say that people with mere academic ideas on momentous events, and plenty of spare time at their disposal have taken to ransom many pages on Wikipedia, and are inserting their own opinions and claiming them to be of superior academic standards. All these nonsense gets the aura of authentic information, as they appear in a widely respected online encyclopedia. As to improving the main article, the whole article has to re-written by a person which obvious impartial standards, and not by a very obvious stooge of the opposite side. --Ved from Victoria Institutions (talk) 11:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)