Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 May 7

7 May 2009

Levi Johnston

Levi Johnston (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The article was speedy deleted by an involved admin. KillerChihuahua (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is extensively involved in the Sara Palin topic. There is a controversy on Wikipedia over whether Levi Johnston is notable. He has appeared in primetime TV interviews recently, so his notability is open to question. KillerChihuahua reasons for deleting the article included BLP and an XfD of redirect opened back in March which resulted in a deletion. However he hasn't articulated a clear BLP violation and he recreated the redirect despite the XfD. The article should be restored and taken to AfD.   Will Beback  talk  20:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I have re-examined the Rfd; Will is correct that consensus was to delete; although mention was made of a redir to Public image of Sarah Palin#Teen pregnancy, this did not have consensus. I have therefore corrected my error and deleted the Redir. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

• Please note: I am not in any way "involved" - I do not edit the Sarah Palin article. I am enforcer of the article probation on that article. Will, I would appreciate it if you would strike your inaccurate and hostile characterization of me as biased in this matter, as it smacks of personal attack. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:04, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm not familiar with the job description of "enforcer", but I'd be surprised if it includes free reign to delete articles outside of process. Deletion of a redirect is not comparable to the deletion of a properly sourced article, so I don't see how that can be used as a sufficient cause. Is there a reason why this article shouldn't go to AfD?   Will Beback  talk  20:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
    • "I'm not faimiliar with the job description of "enforcer", but I'd be surprised if it includes free reign to delete articles outside of process."? Will, try to keep your personal hostility of me off this Drv. Your desire to attack me and smear me has no place here; this is inappropriate. I will not respond further to your blatant attacks, and suggest you strike or remove them. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:14, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Is it a personal attack to say that you are involved in this topic? That's a much lower threshold than I've ever seen before. The assertion that I have a desire to attack you fails to AGF. This response shows a lack of dispassion. All the more reason to bring this to AfD to let uninvolved editors weigh in.   Will Beback  talk  20:27, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
        • Will, your failure to understand that admins properly carrying out duties on an article talk page are not "involved" and that the process was correctly followed has led you to a personal attack and a failure to assume good faith. Treat this on its merits and present evidence of notability, if any, don't try escalating this by what look like smear techniques. . . dave souza, talk 23:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Um, for people unfamilar with the circumstances here, the alleged notability of Levi Johnston is based on the fact that he is the ex-fiance of Bristol Palin. Bristol Palin's alleged notability is based on being a child of Sarah Palin. There is currently no article for Bristol Palin.Ferrylodge (talk) 20:18, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

• The notability also derives from appearances on TV and from articles written about him and his family. But that's a matter which should be discussed at AFD.   Will Beback  talk  20:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
• I'd like to here any policy based reasons why this article shouldn't go to AfD. I don't think KillerC was really basing the deletion on BLP, but more on their feeling that Johnston is non-notable. They may be right, but that's for AfD to decide. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:24, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

  Dear me, are you accusing me of lying? On what basis? KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

  Sorry for the offense. You said it was against BLP, then gave a longer reasoning about it being non-notable. I figured that was the one you were going by. I now see your further comments on your talk page. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

  Apology happily accepted - the discussion has been on three pages so far, I'm not surprised there is a little confusion. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

• Overturn and take to AfD This is not a clear cut case, and things have changed since the last XfD. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

  This is Drv, the correct venue for a deleted page. Afd is for existing pages, which this is not. Suggest if you feel deletion should be overturned, and an article or redirect created, state which and your reasoning. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:37, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

  • (ec) I think the article should be undeleted and taken to AfD. The reason is that his notability has increased since the RfD. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:57, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

• • • And, as I look at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2009 March 13 more closely, the Levi Johnston redirect was mostly deleted because the target article Sarah Pailin didn't mention him and the editors of that page didn't want him mentioned there. So that situation is no longer relevant, either, since he had a fully referenced article about him before this latest deletion. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 21:23, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
• Question What's the question here? If the article was deleted, what was the criterion under which it was deleted? It seems like I'm coming in from the middle of the conversation, even though I've read the entire thread upon to this point. Ray^Talk 20:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Most of the previous conversation is at User_talk:KillerChihuahua#Levi_Johnston and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2009 March 13. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:59, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

• Catching up and continue discussion above

An AFD and RFD are two very different things. Even so I think the article about "levy Johnson" has some merit in its notability I have no strong feelings about this (article) but I have "strong feelings" when an (at least partially) involved admin makes a bold move by deleting it and not check and hand such decision to another uninvolved admin. I sense some abuse even so I assume food faith and give the editor the doubt of "not guilty until proven guilt" and would like to see his/her bold move to be confirmed or rejected by another (completely uninvolved) admin. I think KillerChihuahua did a good job at Sarah Palin's page so far but might went over the top by this. And also, citing an (over a week old) RFD as reason for deletion doesn't seem right to me at all. Instead, the editor should and could've started a legitimate AFD about the redirect that involved into an article. Oh, and to decide to make it a "speedy" makes it even more questionable and about KillerChihuahua's statement above not being evolved at all, again (as I stated above), S/he is partially involved no matter how good of a job s/he did handling the Palin main article and no, this is not meant at all as an attack at all. I'm just giving my opinion on the deletion (which might even not survive a regular AFD but this is not the point). —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk • contribs)

• Overturn The article should be restored - there were 20 reliable sources in the article, representing an 8 month period detailing various events of which Levi is the subject. Many of these reliable sources were written AFTER the RFD - this was clearly noted in the article that was deleted. If other editors feel thatthe subject's notability is questionable, then it should be taken to AfD - per nom and Peregrine Fisher. Otherwise the deletion needs to be overturned and the article restored. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
• Overturn and allow it to go to AFD. Have no interest in the various iterations of alaksan trailer trash but this fellow and his family have been the subject of lots of coverage in reliable sources and this encyclopedia is filled with articles on fictional characters that have never been covered by any reliable sources. This seems odd to me. A non BLP-violating article is more than theoretically possible here. He's not a minor, and he has sought out publicity. Take him to AFD as that's the place to establish if consensus finds him sufficiently notable (the only grounds i can see that need to be determined for inclusion in this case).Bali ultimate (talk) 21:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
• Uphold deletion of biography of a living person of little or no notability: at best someone who has appeared lately in a few news items about someone they have a relationship with, who in turn isn't personally notable, but her mother is a public figure. This is the page for presenting evidence that there is enough notability to justify undeletion, not a page for making spurious claims that an admin has become "involved" by correctly carrying out admin duties on a talk page. Such claims in no way warrant recreating any article where its notability is in serious doubt, and certainly not in the case of a BLP. . . dave souza, talk 23:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
  • This is not the page to decide if the subject is notable. This is the page to decide of the deletion was made according to policy. KC has said that he deleted the article under A7 of the speedy deletion criteria.[1] However that criterion says:
    • An article about a real person, an organization (e.g. band, club, company, etc., except schools), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant. This is distinct from verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability. This criterion applies only to articles about web content and to articles about people and organizations themselves, not to articles about their books, albums, software and so on. The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source. If the claim's credibility is unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion.
  • The article did make an assertion of notability so it is not a valid reason for a speedy deletion. Nor would G4 be appropriate, because the article was substantially different from the deleted redirect. So the deletion does not appear to have been made according to policy and it should be overturned. Whether the claim of notability is sufficient should be determined at AFD.   Will Beback  talk  23:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Will, that's not what I said. I am going to respond to your inaccurate accusations and statements about me one more time, but please let this be the last time. I commented to you that the BLP was "speedyable", and was asked by another editor "Which SPEEDY thing did it match". I responded A7. At NO TIME did I ever state that was why I deleted the page. Please get your facts straight. KillerChihuahua^?!? 23:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

KC -- Not to make this more heated. But what is the speedy criteria under which this was deleted. If I understand correctly, you say that A7 was not the reason you deleted the page. Just so we're not talking past each other here, what was the criteria that you used? That would help us stay on track here I think.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Dave -- I though AFD was the place for establishing notability? If I understand A7 would apply if there was a failure to assert some significance, which is defined as a lower threshold than notability. I can't look at the deleted article, but simply to assert something like the family feuding that he helped color political debate about palin (which it has -- whether this is "notable" is of course another question). If I look at a the yahoo news aggregagator for "Levi Johnston" [2] I find stories from the New York Daily News, USA Today, AP, LA Times, CBS news, etc... all in the past few days. Let it go to AFD and have the community decide if this passes the various notability guidelines.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Uphold deletion KC has not been an active editor on the topic of Sarah Palin. The person is not notable under WP BLP standards, and the article was being used as a coatrack about Sarah Palin, which is evidenced clearly by the accusation that KC was involved in the Palin article. The article was also being used as a coatrack to introduce the exact birth date of the child, which was found not germane in the Palin article, and falls under protection of a minor on WP. And the existence of the article was being cited as a reason for more Palin coatrack articles, including one on Bristol Palin. If such is to be prevented, the sooner the better. And "appearing in TV interviews" has not been held to per se confer notability on anyone. Collect (talk) 23:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

• Request Can this page be userfied so that recent reliable sources may be expounded upon? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 23:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
• Question What was the criteria used for deletion? This has yet to be established. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 23:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)