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:'''Delete''' This fact should be part of an article. --[[User:Christopher Kraus|Christopher Kraus]] ([[User talk:Christopher Kraus|talk]]) 20:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
:'''Delete''' This fact should be part of an article. --[[User:Christopher Kraus|Christopher Kraus]] ([[User talk:Christopher Kraus|talk]]) 20:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
:'''Merge''' with {{future software}}, with a "beta" parameter, as per <sub><font color="#007700">[[User:Wjemather|wjemather]]</font></sub>. Beta software is future software. '''Both forms of software are yet to be finalized on released to the general public'''. However, future software is not necessarily beta software; future software may never enter the beta stage, and remain as alphas.


==== [[Template:R68/20]] ====
==== [[Template:R68/20]] ====

Revision as of 21:58, 9 May 2009

< May 3 May 5 >

May 4


Template:Beta software

Template:Beta software (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

"This article or section contains information about computer software currently in development." Um.. so? Why the hellheck should we notify our readers about this? We don't do disclaimers. And we especially don't do disclaimers that stay forever in articles (like in Mozilla Firefox#Future features). Conti|✉ 22:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Funny. If you don't (or refuse to) understand WP:NDA, I cannot help you. Editors failure to use a template correctly, is no reason for deleting the template. I suppose you would prevent vandalism of articles by deleting them all? wjematherbigissue 14:27, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I didn't make it clear that I was referring to temporal templates in general. However, I did check a large number of articles where this particular template is used before posting, and yes poor usage is a problem. wjematherbigissue 23:53, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. I'm amazed that people are confused by the distinction. {{beta software}} is the software equivalent of {{current}}, and {{future software}} is the software equivalent of {{future}}. This template is a declaration that the contents of the article may change due to events that are currently happening (i.e. the software is being developed and therefore not finalized). {{future software}} is for software that does not exist in a way that can easily be documented by reliable sources (i.e. it's not available to the general public). I've been saying this for three years now. Anyone proposing using a "future" template to describe something that is a "current event" really needs to give it more thought. Warren -talk- 23:10, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe. Maybe not.... Unlike the {{current}}-based templates, {{beta software}} doesn't describe an event. And, unlike the {{future}}-based templates, {{beta software}} doesn't describe something that hasn't happened yet. It's closer to "current" because it describes something that's changing now, even though "now" may be over the course of many months. Things change in software, and it's good to warn our readers about this, especially considering we don't know when a reader will read any given revision of our article. Warren -talk- 23:29, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beta represents the stage before gamma release / x.0 release / public release excessive buggy version to haunt users, so the future is the 1.0 release (or similar) / stable release. Films are in development, so it's also a current thing, but there is the {{future film}}. 76.66.202.139 (talk) 04:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're welcome to have whatever view you like about the word "beta", but don't get confused by the name of the template -- the text of the template doesn't use the word "beta", nor does it cast any aspersions about the pre-release process. In the context of Wikipedia, all this template means is "available but unfinished". {{future software}} means "unavailable and may never be finished". The absolute reality is that if a piece of software has been released, in ANY form, it is a real thing that really exists and can never be made to not exist. That isn't the "future" anymore. That's what distinguishes it from "future film"; a film can be cancelled and never released. Warren -talk- 18:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I guess we can agree to disagree here, since I don't think we should warn our readers about beta software. We don't warn them about future patches, either, nor do we tell them in a friendly box that some software is not being developed anymore. All these things should be obvious enough from the article itself. --Conti|✉ 12:03, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now see, this is how I can tell when someone doesn't work on computing articles. They make sweeping statements like "We don't warn them about future patches".... but we do. Every Service Pack of a Microsoft Windows product has had {{future software}} and {{beta software}} applied to it. Same with Mac OS X releases. Same with other software. Do you want diffs? I can produce them. You don't work on these articles, and you haven't looked at the extensive edit histories, so you should at the very least admit that your position is based on, at best, uninformed guesswork. Warren -talk- 18:12, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was more thinking about, say, notifying our readers that Winamp is updating from 5.551 to 5.552. We don't do that (we don't, right?). But yes, you're right, I don't work on computing articles. Maybe that's why I don't understand why we need to use templates like this one. "Because we need to inform our readers that things can change in relation to this patch/building/space mission" is the most common answer, but I just don't get it. This is a wiki, things change all the time, and software being in beta isn't anything special at all. And, more importantly, being in beta is something that should be obvious from reading the article, anyhow. An article that states "The service was unveiled in London on Wednesday 7 March 2007 and is currently in open beta-testing phase." does not need a template that says exactly the same thing. And if an article does not state something to that effect, and you think that it should, then edit the darn article accordingly instead of adding a template. :) --Conti|✉ 19:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Warren, I am not confused and do understand your position. I simply disagree with it. Beta software does not constantly evolve in a manner consistent with a current event. Being a preview release, it is closely aligned with a future event, and so {{beta software}} should be merged with {{future software}}. The only other alternative is that once released beta software is a concluded event, which would mean that the template should be deleted as unnecessary. wjematherbigissue 23:42, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having worked in IT for over 15 years, I am precisely clear as to the distinction. It is my choice to generally not get involved with computing related articles, and your attitude just serves as a reminder as to why I made that decision. In future, may I suggest you keep your ignorant and insulting comments to yourself. wjematherbigissue 20:35, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP- This banner is an immportant tole in the wikiproject computing community it is designed to inform users that the content they are reading about is not publicly avalible at the present time, But will be available soon. As fay as merger with Future software i oppose because future software cloud be used for software concepts or software in alpha stages. --Koman90 (talk) 04:11, 7 May 2009 (UTC) [reply]
Comment. Adding a "beta=yes" parameter to {{future software}}, which generates an appropriate addendum on the banner, would achieve everything this template does. It is unnecessary, they should be merged. wjematherbigissue 08:50, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This fact should be part of an article. --Christopher Kraus (talk) 20:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Template:Future software, with a "beta" parameter, as per wjemather. Beta software is future software. Both forms of software are yet to be finalized on released to the general public. However, future software is not necessarily beta software; future software may never enter the beta stage, and remain as alphas.

Template:R68/20

Template:R68/20 (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

A set of 29 (of 125) unused chemical-risk templates, now superceded by new Template:Rlink, which links a chemical R-code to the article "List of R-phrases". Originally, 125 R-templates were created in 2005 (when few templates had parameters), but now the new template {{Rlink|rcode}} can replace all 125 old templates; however, many are still used. This TfD begins the debate. PLAN OF ACTION: delete the unused templates among the 125, starting with 29 named: R39/*, R48/* or R68/*:

Template:R39/23
Template:R39/23/24
Template:R39/23/24/25
Template:R39/23/25
Template:R39/24
Template:R39/24/25
Template:R39/25
Template:R39/26
Template:R39/26/27
Template:R39/26/27/28
Template:R39/26/28
Template:R39/27
Template:R39/27/28
Template:R39/28
Template:R48/20/21
Template:R48/20/21/22
Template:R48/20/22
Template:R48/21/22
Template:R48/23/24
Template:R48/23/24/25
Template:R48/23/25
Template:R48/24/25
Template:R68/20
Template:R68/20/21
Template:R68/20/21/22
Template:R68/20/22
Template:R68/21
Template:R68/21/22
Template:R68/22

Most of those old templates were never used, since being created 4 years ago (2005); others have been unlinked, as replaced by the new {{Rlink|rcode}}. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The new Rlink template is impressive but I'm not sure it's a good idea to switch over to it. Every time the new Rlink is called it causes the server to process 126 #ifeq statements. There are a lot of chemistry articles out there, this could potentially be a significant burden. Also, templates with parameters are more complicated for inexperienced users, and parameters are demonstrably unneeded for this since the existing set of templates gets the same results without them. Why is this approach superior to the existing one? I'm asking genuinely, BTW, not just because I did a bunch of grunt work cleaning up and creating those templates years ago. I don't actually know how much work WikiMedia has to do with parser commands like Rlink uses. Bryan Derksen (talk) 14:09, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Current court case

Template:Current court case (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Currently unused. I don't dispute the template itself this time (if it's properly used per its guidelines), but it's simply too specific. There are rarely more than one or two current court cases that are also current events, so there's not much of a need for a specific template. Especially if {{current||court case}} can do exactly the same, anyhow. Conti|✉ 16:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Template:R from other capitalisation

Template:R from other capitalisation (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages) and
Category:Redirects from other capitalisations(edit talk links history) per WP:CDP

nominated for deletion: Delete as useless (see discussion copied below). R'n'B (call me Russ) 14:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(copied from Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 May 4#Category:Redirects from other capitalisations.)

  • Nominator's rationale: Delete. This category serves no real purpose. Over the past few years, many editors have asked why it exists and unsurprisingly their questions have gone unanswered. This category requires bots to constantly add redirects. And in doing so, the bots block legitimate page moves. The category provides little to no benefit to re-users of our content, to readers, or to editors. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:07, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Huh... I've known about this category for years and I never really thought about it, but now I do I can't see any possible use. It's obvious when a redirect is from another capitalisation, anyway. Robofish (talk) 06:32, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I've always wondered what the hell this was for. I guess it's probably as useless as I thought it was. Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:47, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as useless. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 10:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless a defence can be made. ({{R from other Capitalization}} is a nice touch though.) Occuli (talk) 13:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I created this a couple of years back, but cannot at this point remember my reasoning. I do have one concern, but just a procedural one. This is a category populated mostly by template. In such cases, is it not proper procedure to take the template to WP:TFD first, and then G8 the category? Or are you leaving the template behind? It's not been marked for TFD yet. I'm puzzled as to why the category might be deleted, but the template left. - TexasAndroid (talk) 13:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One possibility I just spotted included Wikipedia:WikiProject Red Link Recovery/Capitalisation. This page has not been updated in almost a year, so it may be moot, but it appears to be a project that used either the category or template to generate it's contents.
I'm also going to drop a note on the talk page of the template about this discussion. Since I cannot add much for or against this deletion, I'm hoping someone from there might remember what the intended purpose of the category/template is. - TexasAndroid (talk) 13:42, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The template and category could not generate a to-do list for this project; it consists of titles for which redirects ought to be created, whereas this template marks redirects which have already been created. The only viable correlation is for the template/category to serve as a measurement of progress made by the wiki-project. Even if the accuracy of this weren't vastly undermined by bots indiscriminately "tagging" such redirects, the disadvantages would still outweigh any possible benefit. — CharlotteWebb 14:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(moved by R'n'B from CFD to TFD at this point.)

  • Delete - too broad a categorization, and per the above concern that the bot-categorized redirects become an administrative headache if someone wants to move the page to the other capitalization. –xeno talk 15:17, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Maintenance templates that have real, practical uses should be kept, even when few people know what they do. But in this case, the possible benefit seems undetectable. The bot edits that add this template prevent easy reversal of page moves. EdJohnston (talk) 15:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - should {{R from CamelCase}} get the same treatment or does it actually have a purpose? --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:12, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm ambivalent about that as those are less likely to obstruct legitimate moves. When properly used that template serves more as a reminder that "this redirect is a lot older than you are", being an artifact of the way articles were titled back in the day and that deleting the redirect might break a bunch of links in old revisions etc. However the problem in the case at hand applies mostly to pages freshly created at (or moved to) a sub-optimal title. If somebody moves an article and slaps a silly "sorting" tag on the redirect, reverting the page-move will require admin-rights or a lot of paperwork. In short, if somebody moves "JohnSmith" to "John Smith" it will probably be less open to debate than "Least Weasel" vs. "least weasel" or "History of the Internet" vs. "History of the internet", etc. My own theory is that most of this could be avoided if the software at least made it harder to inadvertently create or link to pages which differ only in spacing or capitalization, and that "redirects from other capitalisation" should be automatic provided no real page exists between here and there. More on this later. — CharlotteWebb 17:40, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a Category deletion policy? Seriously? --MZMcBride (talk) 19:26, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Simplify, as good idea but too much overhead. It inspired me to write Template:Wikisearchbox to foster a search-engine interface for title-lookup on numerous pages. I have used the category extensively to speedy-delete so many "improbable" (hello?) redirects, such as someone thinking people actually type in long article names (not using wikilinks?): "18 March 2003 Parliamentary Approval for the invasion of Iraq". That category revealed many thousands of wasted titles on Wikipedia, and provided evidence for the need to lookup any-case titles. Don't get me started on the day (or decade or century) when all software & browsers will allow multi-word, any-case search (call it "hunt"), even to find a phrase on the current page. "I have seen the future" after the college-dropout billionaires retire: there's this radical technology called "text" waiting to be discovered. -Wikid77 (talk) 04:54, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete only will be seen by Wiki editors, and what value does it provide. No one has provided a convincing argument about its usefulness for maintenance or such. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 04:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I always wondered what is was for. It seems the answer is nothing. --Apoc2400 (talk) 10:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Useless. Garion96 (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Why not just disable the bot flag that tags them and leave what's already categorized categorized. Seems like it a was a huge waste to have the bot go and tag all those thousands of redirects only to go and reverse all that work. As for it's usefulness, read Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/BOTijo 6. -- OlEnglish (Talk) 07:38, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • IMO, if we're going to have this template/category then there is no particular reason for not allowing a bot to help populate it; it's not like category membership is at all controversial or needs anything more than mechanical judgment. The only argument advanced against the bot itself rather than the category was basically "If I come along 6 months later and want to reverse the redirect, {{db-move}} is too hard/annoying for me to use", which I find unconvincing until someone shows me a chronic backlog caused by this issue. Anomie⚔ 12:49, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm not saying it's difficult, in fact I've done what I can to make that template easier to use. But the fact of the matter is I shouldn't have to. Not for something as trivial as that (but not trivial enough for some admins to reject it for ignorance of established naming conventions and instead say "take it to WP:RM", which is chronically backlogged). — CharlotteWebb 17:17, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect template to {{R unprintworthy}}, since that's the main purpose of this template. Delete category only. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 11:16, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • This should be seriously considered by the closing admin. The template under discussion places the redirect into Category:Unprintworthy redirects as well as the category under discussion here. Simply deleting the template would result in Category:Unprintworthy redirects being partially depopulated, while either redirecting the template, editing the template to remove just the under discussion category, or having the cleanup bots replace this template with {{R unprintworthy}} instead of simply removing it would not do so. Anomie⚔ 13:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • What? A significant part of the problem is that these tags were added by a bot which assumes that the article is at the correct title, and that all the redirects are incorrect or "unprintworthy" titles (to which the article should not be movable by any normal means). However the bot has neither a working knowledge of naming conventions nor enough intelligence to determine whether the article conforms to them before sand-bagging every associated redirect. Merging the categories would only (by contaminating a larger pool) create more work for any brave soul interested in reviewing the appropriateness of articles and redirects (i.e. which title should be which) in this particular group. — CharlotteWebb 17:17, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, rather useless. Most redirects from other capitalisations are pointless anyway. Stifle (talk) 14:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: As best I can tell this template and category are working exactly as intended and is very much in active use by editors: Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Redirects from other capitalisations
This template and category are not for the benefit of readers, they for the benefit of editors–
"This is a redirect from a title with another method of capitalisation. It leads to the title in accordance with the Wikipedia naming conventions for capitalisation, and can help writing, searching, and international language issues."
"Pages linking to any of these redirects may be updated to link directly to the target page. However, do not replace these redirected links with a piped link unless the page is updated for another reason."
"For more information, see Category:Redirects from other capitalisations."
This text is shown on both the template page and when the redirect has a CSD or prod template applied.
There is already a widespread problem with some editors changing redirects to piped links, ie; WP:R#NOTBROKEN and this template does seem to help prevent that.
Is there a particular reason why we are even discussing removing this template which would then need to be replaced with {{R unprintworthy}}? There are currently 263,120 pages in this category and that count seems to be pretty stable. This seems like a lot of load for the job queue and a big task for a bot for very little gain.
Note that there are also 27 other redirects to this template: [1]
--Tothwolf (talk) 01:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment/Possible Alternative: While I don't find the template useful, it does occur to me that the problem that motivated its nomination could be fixed by improvements in the core software. Specifically, moves could be allowed if either 1) there are only 2 edits to a page with the first being a redirect to the moved from page and the second being an edit to add this template. or 2) there are only 2 edits to a page with the first being a redirect to the moved from page and the second being a bot edit. (And yes this is a relative simple change to implement.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note for closing admin: Something such as this that affects over a quarter million pages and 1000s of editors needs to be presented in a venue that gets more coverage such as an RFC and something should probably also be brought up on the Village Pump. CfD and TfD both do not get enough involvement for this to be resolved here. Tothwolf (talk) 21:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Useless and disruptive. Anything this template theoretically accomplishes can be done in a more efficient manner without having bots that disrupt reversion of page moves.--Dycedarg ж 21:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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