Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia/Archive 4

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Centro Galleria

This extract from the history section of Centro Galleria doesn't sit right with me:

"Centro Galleria was officially opened in 1973 by Westfield Group it was largely demolished in 1989 to make way for a newer, larger shopping centre. The shopping centre reopened in 1994 after a five year long major redevelopment, and has had incremental expansions over time since then. The shopping centre was built by the Coles Myer Group, and Collier road was re-routed around the center."

I thought Morley just had a freestanding K-mart store (now part of Galleria), maybe a freestanding supermarket, the burnt-down Boans and that other complex that's still there on the northern side. Was there a Westfield on the site before the big 1994 construction, can anyone recall? And what are these incremental expansions to the centre since 1994? I don't know of any, unless it's a car park or something equally minor. - Mark 09:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't recall (I lived SOTR in those days), but here's some semi-related background including a nice photo of the Boans fire, which should at least be mentioned as site history. Moondyne 08:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Henrietta is always good for a giggle

• http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search~S1?/Xboans+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D/Xboans+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D&SUBKEY=boans%20morley/1%2C14%2C14%2CB/frameset&FF=Xboans+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D&9%2C9%2C
• [Fire destroys Boans shopping complex at Morley.] Sunday times (Perth, W.A.), 22 June 1986, p.3,
• see also http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/X?SEARCH=boans+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D
• see also http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/X?SEARCH=galleria+morley&searchscope=1&Da=&Db=&p=&SORT=D

That should keep you out of mischief for a few secs - I am going to be having a henrietta and wikibreak soon - It is well worth trying henrietta first - oggle has nothing in comparison on such subjects SatuSuro 10:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Original Research warning

From my memory of Morley of the late 80's there was four main buildings divided by Collier road that ran more or less north south. The land and buildings of the area became Galleria

1. Boans was on the eastern side of Collier road set back in the carpark and had a string of about 4 small shops with open verandah, the building was a two story steel, concrete, asbestos construction. The Boans building was the one destroyed by fire the shops were were damages by smoke and water but closed due the extend of the damage and concerns about asbestos at the site.
2. The Generator Hotel, was also on the eastern side of Collier road but set at the intersection of Wellington, Walter, & Collier. It continued to operate well after the fire and during the most of the construction. I spent many a Friday night there mainstay of the bands was the Jetz. I think it closed/demolished within months of the official opening and was just turned into carpark.
3. Kmart/Coles building this building was a free standing building faced north, was on the western side of Collier. Behind this was a large sump/swamp/drain feed from the carpark. Kmart remained open during construction, the footprint of the store has remained basically unchanged. Coles was along side(east of Kmart) and both faced the carpark there was a enclosed glass walkway in front/joining the two stores. During early construction coles continued to operate at some stage coles moved into its current location, though not sure if it traded uninterupted, but it did trade for a reasonable length of time(months) before the centre opened.
4. Target/Woolworths This was the newest of the buildings it was on the southern side of the sump and the western side of Collier rd. The building was a T shape shopping center with Target and Woolworths kinda facing off (entrances offset) on the southern end, running across the top of the T was a number of shops. These continued to trade uninterupted during construction, target, woolworths are also on the same footprint they had prior to construction, only the right top of the T was altered.
   

There wasnt any building I can recall as being title Westfield, though I suspect it was the Target complex if any that would have been named in 1973 as it was the last of the shopping areas to be built and had an actual shopping centre layout. I dont recall a Westfield brand named complex until Carousel was refurbished at around the same time, then both Galleria and Carousel started using the name. The significant alterations was rerouting of Collier road, which would now run across the actual footprint of Boans. The sump/swamp still affects the site is the reason why the building orientates eastwards. There was a street that ran east/west across the front of Kmart thats been all but absorbed into the carpark it does have lights on Russel. The buildings that house Fast Eddies, Etamougha Pub etc were late additions that area was were the Generator was and it became carpark. All of the are that includes Myers was built during the 1994 works. There was a Bunnings, the building is still there but its tennent has changed this was on the eastern side of collier originally but with the rerouting its now on the western side. There was also a Drive in Cinema on Walter rd east of Boans that closed around the same time as the fire occured, I dont think its land was incorporated into the footprint of Galleria or Collier road. Gnangarra 13:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/images/pd258/258,208PD.jpg is a good reminder for oldies as to where the drive in was SatuSuro 13:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

nice it was where I remebered, but being so young well....Gnangarra 14:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I have an idea your "Target/Woolworths" building might have been named "Morley City". Hesperian 22:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The sump is still there, by the way. It is the only structure to have survived. Ironic? Hesperian 22:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I think Morely city was to the northwest of the Kmart site whos basic structure still exists. Gnangarra 10:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't that Morley Markets? Or was it the other way around? Hesperian 10:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I've whipped up a vector map of the Morley shopping district from 1975 LISWA aerial photos. Any help with identifying the buildings would be appreciated. - Mark 15:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I can help with that, having been closely involved with the Morley shopping precinct between 1975 and 1983. The main elements were Progress Street with Morley Markets on the Walter Road side and Coles-K-Mart on the other. (Morley City was further up Russell Street.) A big battle was fought over several years by a union of Bayswater Shire personnel and developer Colonial Mutual to close off Collier Road and reroute all traffic to the developer's wishes. They were opposed in a big campaign by established traders in the centre, including Morley Markets, Coles/K-Mart, the Morley Park Hotel, etc. D'Orazio became shire president when his predecessor's supporters were thinned out at the annual election in 1983. I may have some old maps in my archive. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 03:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like the Eastern Reporter or its predecessors may be of use too from that period. Orderinchaos 07:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

WA Inc, Bevan Lawrence, etc

Recent publication of Prof. Quentin Beresford's The Godfather: the life of Brian Burke (Allen & Unwin 2008) now provides much-needed impeccable citations for resurrection of an article on Bevan Lawrence which was deleted for inadequately stated reasons. I am prepared to initiate this work. Can anyone access a copy of the deleted material for private reference, please? The new book is also, of course, a mine of citable data on the Burkes and their notable associates before, during and after the WA Inc era. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 03:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I've emailed it to you. Restoration of the article will be slightly problematic and you will need to tread carefully. The article was clearly removed on notability issues, hardly "for inadequately stated reasons", and the discussion blanked for BLP reasons. A new source won't necessarily improve notability. Please don't restore or userfy it until these issues are addressed. –Moondyne 04:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Ta. Rest assured I have no significant interest in Carmen. His PFFOG stuff is more notable and in need of being placed on wider record, and there's no hurry. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 07:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Essentially an article which is simply a coatrack for allegations against his sister would not be acceptable. It's worth noting our current BLP policy and the two ArbCom decisions related to it which emphasise the seriousness with which such issues are viewed. Quite separately, Bevan would also need to meet Wikipedia's notability standard, too. As a curiosity I do intend to work on Brian Burke and some other premier articles next year and possibly get them to FA - Burke's is actually a very interesting tale and a lot more complicated than the papers like to paint it, either now (godfather/antihero) or at the time he was popular (Mr Everything/saviour of the state etc). Orderinchaos 07:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Christ Church Grammar School

Hi, could I get someone to look at the article - User:Topology Expert has wandered by and is convinced the school is some sort of inhuman sports camp, inserting his POV into the article with unreferenced and OR statements. I've repeatedly asked for citations but he's just ignoring me and making things up. TRS-80 (talk) 08:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

article improvement

The article History of Western Australia needs an improvement in the lead section. I'm likely to forget, and not likely to do it soon. Does someone want to have a go? cygnis insignis 16:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree, it needs major work. Feel free. ;) –Moondyne 02:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I've taken a swing past added bits 'n peices and created a 3 para lead though this still needs some tinkering with Gnangarra 13:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Suburb Info box

The formatting of the box was altered at some stage now all surrounding suburbs are automatically linked, which was a good idea but the reality of the situation given that we dab all Australian place names isnt so good. An example is Ashfield, Western Australia only one of the Bayswater links are to the local burb the other is to Bayswater in the UK. Either we need to embark on a burb by burb dab or have the info box changed, any thoughts on which way to go? Gnangarra 01:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Good point actually. Was done when we did the infobox but when one thinks logically through it, there seems no good reason to maintain autolinks on those fields, so I've undone it on the template. Orderinchaos 09:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Early Days

Does anyone have access to Vol. 6 Part 3 1964? Specifically looking for "The foundation of British rule in the West: H.M.C.S. Amity and H.M.S. Success" by Marcus Conrad, starting p.62. Thanks. –Moondyne 12:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I will look in UWA tomorrow (am there for other reasons already). Orderinchaos 12:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks mate. –Moondyne 01:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Apologies about this one - I will get it tomorrow or the following day. I haven't actually been to UWA yet. Orderinchaos 13:46, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Not me. Hesperian 12:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Need RS re gay venues

You wouldn't have thought it was so difficult to find a reliable source which says the Court Hotel and Connections Nightclub are the two main gay venues in Perth (for the most part the only gay venues, but anything else that does spring up is temporary). It's common knowledge, but the only RS I can find for it is the front page of the Guardian Express in an article that quotes press releases from a Perth councillor and the Court themselves. I've hunted Factiva and even the academic sites - any ideas, anyone? Orderinchaos 09:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

maybe we are an enlightened bread here in Perth and such trivial information just isnt notable or we west ostriches keep our heads in the sand... Gnangarra 13:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe try

Lingane, Dennis.(1999) "Drag on draught", Sunday times (Checkout section), 20 June 1999, p.10.

Hesperian 23:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what's more embarrassing - knowing where to find RS for gay venues, or claiming that the Slimes -and the checkout section in particular - is a RS! Are there any mentions in hansard or CofP council meetings - or maybe court case reports of hate crimes? The-Pope (talk) 23:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what's more embarrassing - knowing where to find RS for gay venues... "... not that there's anything wrong with that", right? Hesperian 23:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

If the article isnt about the Court Hotel its self then court Hotel website offers some stuff alternatiev gay in wa has [1] this on a Court Hotel AHA award. Gnangarra 23:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Get a print copy of Lonely Planet Western Australia. That usually includes that sort of info. Here's the online entry for Perth entertainment - Gobeirne (talk) 23:54, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah thanks. :) Will try Lonely Planet. Orderinchaos 13:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

As a complete aside (and continuing on embarrassing) - I just realised our annual Pride Festival doesn't have an article of any kind. I don't even know where to *start* with that one as I'm not an arts/culture kind of person, but I note the Adelaide and Melbourne varieties have articles. Orderinchaos 13:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Career Fire and Rescue Service of Western Australia → Fire and Emergency Services Authority of Western Australia ?? –Moondyne 07:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Have to agree the WAF&RS should be included as part of the history of FESA not a separate article.Dan arndt (talk) 07:12, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done –Moondyne 09:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Fremantle harbour

I'm going to have a crack at this. But should it be called Fremantle port? Davidcohen (talk) 07:48, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Fremantle Harbour looks good. Well done. –Moondyne 08:24, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Penguin Island

I'm really not in the mood to write in an article right now, but I saw a fairly decent article about the history of Penguin Island in the travel liftout of today's West Australian. Hopefully one of you will feel inclined to harvest it for suitable material for our article about the island. - Mark 11:05, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

notin the mood to write an article right now; I hope you're feeling better soon. Hesperian 11:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Interwiki project

Main page: User:Orderinchaos/Interwiki WA

Just to cast out a bit wider what I've been working on - over the last few days I've conducted an audit of the Western Australian articles hosted on other language Wikis. The state of both the articles and the level of coverage really varies quite widely, from pretty good on German and French to pretty weak on dozens of others. 20 wikis have non-trivial coverage of WA topics, whilst 45 have WA and/or Perth only as articles. This may be overstating it a bit, as at least one wiki had "Australia's province" and a map from Commons as the only content for Western Australia, and the Estonians created a heap of substubs for small WA towns starting with A and B.

I've talked to someone else who ran a similar project in their area of interest and got some ideas. One thing that came up is the need to develop clear, straightforward articles in basic English which are suitable for unambiguous translation. (Note that this is not the same standard of English which may be suitable for en.wikipedia.) These can be offered to any project that wants them.

I've already engaged five native-language editors on various wikis who are willing to help correct the machine translations for grammar and meaning once we have the end products. I was surprised at the level of interest especially from German, Italian, Dutch and former Yugoslav editors to have vastly improved Australian coverage.

Ultimately the end result, if successful, will be that several different languages will be able to offer a meaningful, locally-vetted collection of information about Western Australia to their readers. I think this is a good aim. It may also set an interesting challenge for the other Australian projects.

I'm going to be on Wikibreak for three weeks, but I thought I'd chuck this out for ideas as to:

1. what people think the scope should be (I favour a limited but useful one)
2. see who is interested in helping to develop this resource on the English end
3. find out if anyone here speaks any other languages well (preferably natively but doesn't have to be)
4. any other issues, challenges or ideas.

Unless other people volunteer, the development idea I have in mind is that I write the articles, others check them over / suggest improvements, and then as a job lot, we get them distributed. Orderinchaos 07:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds interesting; I'd be happy to help out. Do you have an example article that shows general content and writing style?

In regards to point 3, I wanted to write "I used to know Japanese" in Japanese, but all my rusty brain can work out in that sentence is "私は日本語を..." which only mentions the words "I" and "Japanese", and nothing useful at all (and took forever to enter - I probably should uninstall the Japanese language stuff from my computer and save myself the hassle). So, I'll volunteer for writing in English, but certainly not for translating anything! Somno (talk) 13:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :) Translation isn't the greatest need - it seems to be there's just about no wiki where there aren't bilingual speakers and translators, and we can get a machine translation (with a fair bit of checking) to do 75% of the work so they just have to check our version for grammar etc. Given the breadth of coverage on French, German and Dutch I'm probably going to try working with them first, and that will allow us to refer strong speakers in those languages who may not be as strong in English on other wikis to those versions. With Afrikaans, which we don't have a translator for, the quality of the articles they're producing themselves on WA topics is quite high (their wiki has featured one of them!) and it may just be a matter of assisting those already doing the excellent work over there. Might also try and get Serbian going as it seems once you've done that, you have the basis for about 4 or 5 language wikis (Croatian, Serbocroatian (yes, they have a separate wiki!), Bosnian, Macedonian and likely others), plus I have a friend who speaks that as a native language and can check them before they're posted. Estonian will be the interesting challenge - they've produced loads of substubs for us which I'd rather like to see improved. So the main task is just getting it right at our end. Orderinchaos 20:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi. An interesting project. Feel free to throw a couple of discrete tasks my way if you want. My 'other language' skills don't extend beyond rough conversational French & Japanese (just enough to draw puzzled expressions from native speakers of those lanaguages) and thus of no use to your project but I'll do what I can in terms of generating or refining suitable content in English. A couple of observations: Seems the greatest effort required will be in the translation and ongoing 'management' eg translating future edits, monitoring changes etc. Also - I don't see that much is achieved by having an article about a small town or a regional highway tranalated into 30 or 40 languages. For both these reasons, I'd suggest (at least initially) limiting the scope to a small number of large articles - enough to provide broad understanding and coverage of WA, and focussing the effort on getting a few articles in good shape across multiple Wikis. Without seeing the numerous Estonian stubs (starting with the letters A and B) you referred to, I can't see that having 200 small WA towns C through to Z covered by Estonian sub articles would achieve more international understanding of WA (if that's the objective) than would a dozen 'high-level' articles polished up and properly translated into 50 languages. Still, anything is possible with enough resources.GlenDillon 03:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Totally agreed. et:Baandee is a good example of the Estonian stubs, by the way. Their admins have no interest in deleting them (I asked). The "dozen high-level articles polished up and properly translated" is pretty much my aim here. Orderinchaos 05:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

WA has a town called Baandee? Learn something new every day... How do we decide which places to focus on initially? Population? Somno (talk) 09:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Population and then, below a certain level, importance, I'd say. Definite absolute musts are our five cities (Albany, Bunbury, Geraldton, Kalgoorlie, Mandurah) plus Fremantle. As a bit of a test, I wrote stubs for the regionals in Arabic today. Got back to en and the bot had already figured it out and added them as interwiki links. Gotta love automation. Orderinchaos 10:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

In that case, someone should break the news to Joondalup that it's not a city... I would add our common tourist destinations (not to "promote" them to other countries, but rather because they may have heard of these places and be interested in reading about them): Monkey Mia, Margaret River and Broome. Somno (talk)

Also places of major industrial importance such as Dampier. (Those three you mention are quite well represented across the 20 wikis with more than trivial coverage of WA.) Orderinchaos 08:53, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I thought I posted this last week, but it seemed to disappear, or never appear, so I'll say it again. This is where the importance category should be of use. I would guess that every article in Category:Top-importance Western Australia articles should be translated into every wiki. Most articles in Category:High-importance Western Australia articles should be targetted to be translated as well. Mid or low importance articles are likely to be translated only if there is a specific reason - ie some of the more obscure Dutch explorer articles are more likely to show up in the nl.wikipedia than in the ja.wikipedia. Conversely it's a good chance to review the allocation of importance on all the articles that you are considering for this project - you might find an article that has been marked as mid or low, that you feel is really a more important one and should be marked as such - or have some top or high articles that aren't really that important. Obviously the importance should pertain primarily to the en.wiki but this is a good question to ask. Is this top importance article worth translating to other wikis? The-Pope (talk) 12:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

For WA project attention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Gerald_Glaskin - has been offered for some odd reason. SatuSuro 02:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Solved. The offshoot of this is that Glaskin's identity as one of the early homosexual writers ( he didnt 'come out' until later in life) in Perth - as a consequence the now vigorously politicised and present community in perth has a media presnce, members of parliament identifiably of the lgbt persuasion and all - anyone any material for an article for Perth?

Also for the scandal enthusiastic - Saturdays West has a revamp of the Shirley Finn story that does not go away - but interestingly the names of those involved that have circulated over the last couple of decades are in print (the most common story doing the rounds was it was a hitman from east who was paid for by a politician and some tops cops who didnt like the heat being put on by shirley) SatuSuro 12:06, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I arrived in South Perth from Sydney only weeks before Finn was executed in her 'Mafia staff car'. I was soon made aware of an earlier, possibly linked, episode in which a middle-ranking cop called 'Spike' Daniels sought to expose illicit police involvement in brothels. I understand that 'Spike' was sent for the customary psychiatric branding and ruthlessly ejected from the fraternity. Bjenks (talk) 00:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Karratha, Western Australia

I've had a crack at cleaning up this article and would welcome any assistance in improving it. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 15:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks great to me - good work :) Should we have articles on the suburbs? Orderinchaos 15:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

You choose! I've also had a crack at Pannawonica, though my personal experience of it goes back about 30 years. Bjenks (talk) 16:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

{{Heritage Council of Western Australia}}

In case anyone else finds it useful, I thought I'd mention that I just created {{Heritage Council of Western Australia}}. Hesperian 13:38, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Densities

A user Geoking66 has been popping up all over my watchlist adding densities to Perth suburb articles. Quite aside from the fact precision is impossible as the ABS only provide areas to 1dp (2-3sf), I would question its usefulness as a measure. Any thoughts? (I would deal with it myself but I'm very busy offline.) Orderinchaos 05:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Would have to agree - residential densities are misleading when used as Geoking66 has been doing - simply because the land area for the suburb includes more than just the residential land area (i.e. bushland, road reservations, commercial and industrial areas) therefore a suburb might have a high residential density for its residential areas but because the balance of the suburb is commerical (with no residential component) the overall density is lower. Town Planning professionals only apply densities to residential areas and not overall suburbs (precisely for the reason I have described). Will need to revert all the edits made in this respect. Dan arndt (talk) 08:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted the ones I can find. Orderinchaos 08:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

While I'm away...

Might want to keep a watch on Landsdale, Western Australia. It's been a problem for a while. Orderinchaos 10:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and someone adding racist crap to Padbury, Western Australia, and trying to add "affluent" to the lead of Applecross, Western Australia. Safe to assume I won't be here at all until Tuesday. Orderinchaos 14:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Prose review

For reasons unrelated to Wikipedia, I'm absolutely zonked and my wording is wonky, but I am not seeing how to fix it. Could anyone with a few moments cast their eye over the "Overview" section of Court Ministry (about the Charles Court ministries of 1975-1982), which I created over the last few days, and review the prose so that it reads well in English? Would be much appreciated. Orderinchaos 00:34, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

done. your's was fine. I only tweaked it. Doh! I just checked back - you said Overview - I only looked at the lead-in. Okay - I'll do Overview tonight and I'll read your messages more carefully in future. GlenDillon 08:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Forgot to note here - thanks to you and Djanga for improving the above article :) Was much appreciated - I was able to get the content but was too tired/preoccupied to word it. Once I finish the offline work I'm doing now I plan on improving the ministry and elections articles I've already completed and doing separate "Government" ones. I'll update here when that's happening - I probably have my own biases and this stuff is and should be way bigger than one person, and sources can be selective (i.e. Political Chronicle which I'm using as a main source may well omit interesting stuff which occurred and which isn't picked up by other sources). So just an advance notice that 1970s-2000s WA politics is going to be getting a lot of attention shortly. (I'll complete ministries articles back to whenever but they'll probably be just lists) Orderinchaos 05:54, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 06:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

and here's me thinking this a collaborative effort that anyone can cintribute to.... :{ Gnangarra 14:31, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

You would've been right, if you actually did think that or made some attempts to discuss it. Instead, launching this MFD straight away is interesting; apparently, fellow Wikipedians don't deserve 'a fair go', let alone basic courtesy. I'm not sure my message at the MFD is getting through to you (maybe it's my English...I don't know), so I'm noting it here in the hope that someone else from the project may be able to better communicate my point to you - I myself can't think of any other way to word it. Thanks. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I was unhappy about this new group too. Quite a number of us kicked up a stink about it, as a result of which it has been, and is being, rescoped. I suspect that the group was never quite as clubby as the above spam made it out to be; and to the extent that it was clubby, I think it is gradually being fixed.

At present the "coordinators' group" looks like becoming an open working group on WikiProject assessment. I can't think of anyone in this project who is really deeply involved in assessment; mostly we've outsourced our article assessment to a small group of enthuastic WP:AUS assessors. But maybe I've overlooked someone. It doesn't really matter, I suppose, because so long as this new group remains open to everyone, we need not endorse a representative for this project; anyone with an interest can put their names down. Personally I can't think of anything duller.

Hesperian 03:21, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Satu and myself have probably been the most active WP:WA-based assessors - that being said, I have very few opinions on wider assessment, it's meant to have a use and I think people try to draw out more meaning from the assessment system than is actually required. I tend to rate rather subjectively (size, language and references), and I'm happy they introduced the C class assessment as that filled a gap for too-good Starts and not-good-enough B's, but yeah. Orderinchaos 05:49, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry - as far as WA assessment I am nowhere compared to Djanga's previous incarnation's WA assessments (which were significant contributions the WA project status as a well managed project), my assessments in the WA project are but a mere bootstrap - I assess very much larger numbers of Indonesian and Tasmanian project pages. Or tag category pages. I have strong opinions on tagging and assesment that do not belong here - lets hope the group sorts its purposes out to not be elitest SatuSuro 12:40, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The effective demotion of WP:Perth as a separate project to a taskforce (whatever that is) of WP:WA mid 2008 caused a bit of a flurry, but since then its a matter of just keeping on top of things. I keep an eye on Category:Unknown-importance Western Australia articles and Category:Unknown-importance Western Australia articles, making sure both stay empty (there's also links to both of these at the top of this page if anyone is interested). Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Western Australia articles by quality log gives a fairly good idea of what's happening behind the scenes if you can be bothered.

I'll keep my opinion on the working group being discussed to myself. Djanga 13:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd second Satu's credit too :) I had entirely forgotten about that business... yeah the Perth thing was a bit strange but the lack of activity there I think meant that the people from here were maintaining that anyway so best to have it under one umbrella to reflect the totality of work going on for WA, as opposed to other states where the people working on the cities and on the country areas are almost mutually exclusive. Orderinchaos 13:32, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

It would be remiss of me to fail to remind all that OIC did the lion's share of the WP:PERTH project transitioning. Djanga 13:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I do think (from my own very weird and wonderful journeys into other projects and their tagging and assessment - either lack or chaos of) - that we should really give a lot of credit to those who have helped and who see legitimacy in keeping up with tagging and assessments here in the WA and Australia projects - we actually have a handle on what we have in the project and what we need to do - there are many out their in total ignorance of their own article count or category tree or anything really. SatuSuro 13:49, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Success Bank

Above redirects to Gage Roads which states they are one and the same. That is not my understanding—I'd always understood Success Bank to be a shallow E-W bank lightly to the south of the harbour entrance and Gage Roads to be slightly to the north. Does anyone have access to a decent map or some such reference? Djanga 12:22, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

My understanding is that Gage Roads is so named because it is a great place for ships to anchor off shore, because it is deep; on the other hand, I think that Success Bank is shallow, and therefore a navigational hazard. They are gazetted as distinct places.

Hang on a sec and I'll peruse my book shelf... here you go: from Page 204 of Sense of place:

"Cockburn Sound... is the southern part of a basin about 60 feet deep, lying between the mainland and the mostly submerged aeolianite ridge running from the island of Rottnest, through Garden Island to Point Peron. The basin is divided into three parts by two submarine banks, Success and Parmelia, with Gage Roads off Fremantle at the northern end, a small basin off Owen Anchorage in the middle, and Cockburn Sound at the south."

Hesperian 12:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Beat me to it - well done - good ref - they are very different - by nature of their names alone, the henrietta refs group:

• Changes in seagrass coverage on Success and Parmelia Banks between 1965 and 1995 / prepared for Cockburn Cement Limited ; prepared by National Geographic Information Systems (Australia) Pty Ltd., University of Western Australia, Botany Department, D.A. Lord & Associates Pty. Ltd.

Published [Perth, W.A.] : Cockburn Cement, 1998. ISBN 1876476001

• whereas the southern part of gage roads has been full of empty grain ships for weeks and weeks and weeks now - of which I have a range of very poor photos taken from scarborough SatuSuro 12:48, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh hell what an idiot I was when I was first editing - very very wrong - http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Success_Bank&diff=230990919&oldid=33101036

Thanks for alerting to my geographically challeneged rubbish - please feel free to eliminate my early days mistakes - SatuSuro 12:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry about it mate. Your Henrietta ref above prompted me to find this which has a fairly clear map on page 19 of the pdf. I hadn't realised that Cockburn Cement do the dredging for the FPA and they call it sand mining. Djanga 13:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Portal

FYI, I have removed the "News" section of the WA portal because updating the section is not high on anyone's list of priorities (including my own) and it was out-of-date again. Mentioning it here in case someone wants to add the section back and maintain it, and for transparency because there's no hope of the WA portal becoming a Featured Portal without a news section, and some might disagree with a decision that takes it further from featured portal criteria. Somno (talk) 07:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

It would be worth considering an informal update collab perhap amongst the usual suspects if they piped in to volunteer for small short times with low pain threshold tasks - problem with the nature of the daily news in wa - some items come and go quickly while the least suspecting items linger - very hard to keep a balance - as to what is significant versus what the daily tv and paper emphasis versus what could follow up in a reasonable article imho. As for featured - hmm -= do we want to be that ambitious? I await the responses with interest. SatuSuro 08:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, maintaining a balance in the news items is one of the things I found the most tiresome. We could update the section daily with news about Ben Cousins, as the WA media likes to do, but he's not even from WA so it might be a bit of a stretch. Direct link to the news archive is here, FYI: Portal:Western Australia/Western Australia news/Archive. Somno (talk) 08:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

For the adminstratively minded

Or perhaps the curious - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Cities_of_Western_Australia - is a town always a town is a town? or should that be when is a town not a town? Anyone at a loss might peruse the talk page of the template - it probably should have been discussed here rather than there - if there is indeed a grading scheme for towns in the state - a good specific ref is needed to either fix this for once and for all - or otherwise it might fester into what orderinchaos calls creep SatuSuro 06:58, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

There is an actual defintion as to what constitutes a City in Western Australia - will try and chase down the specifics for you (examples include the City of Swan, which comprises the towns of Midland, Guildford etc). Am fairly certain that there is also a definition of a town as well as the small entity is a shire (ie Shire of Peppermint Grove & Town of Claremont). These definitions however relate to the Local Government Authority and not necessarily to the geographical entity. Dan arndt (talk) 08:02, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I support the template including cities only, unless a clear list of "major towns" in WA has been defined by a reliable source, rather than OR. Somno (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The provisions related to the changes for Cities and Towns are contained within clause 2.4 of the Local Government Act, 1995 (as amended) which essentially state the Governor can make the following desingations for a locality:

• a locality can be designated a City (in the metro areas) where it has a population of more than 30,000 residents & more than half live in a urban area (rural areas) has a population over 20,000 & more than half live in an urban area
• a locality where more than half its population resides in an urban area can be designated a Town
• anything is designated a Shire

It's worth noting that even if there is any subsequent change to the population (ie it decreases below those thresholds) its designation continues to apply until the Governor makes an order for it to be changed (which I guess is why Cities like the City of Nedlands exists with a population of only 20,000). Dan arndt (talk) 08:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The template even briefly contained "major Perth suburbs" with the localities in which seats of local government were based. It omitted Morley, Belmont and Cannington to name a few, while including Stirling. Orderinchaos 08:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Edited the template - creating Metropolitan Cities and Regional Cities. Dan arndt (talk) 09:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the errors, I went too far with adding things. I fully acknowledge what I've done wrong. I have included the towns with a population greater than 10,000 - Ophiuchus14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ophiuchus14 (talk • contribs) 13:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

A note of thanks

Just to thank User:Digestible (née User:Bush shep) for their excellent work in rewriting the articles at User:Sarah/Copyvios - a key task for the Politics section of the WA WikiProject - as well as generating a fair few new ones, and in checking the lists I wrote in August and September for the various electoral terms - some have needed new disambiguations due to similarly named articles that have been written since I compiled the lists, and there were a handful of errors/oversights which needed correcting. As you may know I'm on extended wikibreak atm and have a range of tasks on my list so this Wikipedian's assistance was much appreciated. Orderinchaos 21:03, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

No probs. :-) Digestible (talk) 18:36, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

As a complete aside, could someone have a look at Tonkin shadow ministry? Any improvements to the lead would be much appreciated (they'll probably end up being reused in quite a few shadow cabinet articles once I can be bothered writing them). I should probably stop writing these things when I'm just about to go to bed :P Orderinchaos 22:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

WAM Song of the Year

Just noted that WAM Song of the Year has been proposed by some American editor for deletion as it is an Minor Award with no claim of Notabilty. Unfortunately I'm away at the moment - only logged on to check something - am concerned that it maybe put up as an AfD in the meantime - can anyone assist until I get back and provide references and/or justification. Dan arndt (talk) 00:12, 5 April 2009 (UTC)