Talk:United States

Please consider reading the frequently asked questions for this article before asking any questions on this talk page.

Current population (est.): 338,984,000 as of December 29, 2024. The USCB projects 439 million by 2050

America

America, fuck yeah.

Featured

United States: featured article. When?. Alakasam (talk) 01:48, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

"Drives on"

It seems wildly inconsequential to include this in the fact bar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.182.172.229 (talk) 13:59, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Bring it up with the Template:Infobox country people. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 15:08, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

change name

i suggest that the name of the article is changed to the united states OF AMERICA, because there are many united states in the world, germany for example is made up of many states as is india. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.225.75.90 (talk) 18:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

But no other nation currently existing is called the "united" states. --Golbez (talk) 21:52, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Mexico's official name is literally translated as the Mexican United States or the United States of Mexico. But it seems most translate it non-literally, as the United Mexican States. Not that it matters either way... when people say United States and leave it at that, particularly in English, they are referring to the USA probably 99.99% of the time. Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Right, the official English name appears to be United Mexican States. And recall that, in Mexico, when they refer to "Estados Unidos", they aren't referring to Mexico. --Golbez (talk) 03:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Please see FAQ. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 02:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I have yet to see "United States" refer to another country without it being mentioned first--Jakezing (Your King (talk) 03:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

First President of the United States

The first President of the United States was not George Washington. George Washington was the first President under the Constitution. The first President of the United States was John Hanson under The Articles of Confederation (went into effect on March 1, 1781). He served from November 5, 1781 to November 3, 1782. The Articles of Confederation didn't work too well and broke in 1788.

With that being said, I recommend a sub-section is added about Hanson being the first US President. It would be most appropriate under Government (would be 4.2).

Sources: http://www.marshallhall.org/hanson.html --Rmhs15 (talk) 01:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

You would be wrong, but I heard this is a meme going around. George Washington was the first President of the United States, both in title and under the Constitution. The previous officeholders of the similarly-named job of "President of the United States in Congress Assembled" were not chief executives and were closer to a 'speaker of the house'. No subsection beyond explaining the basics of the Articles of Confederation is required. --Golbez (talk) 03:00, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Change I made to "Culture" section

I deleted about 3-4 sentences that talked about subjects relating to same-sex marriage. Reason is because there is only one sentence devoted to Women rights when the history and progress of women rights is far greater than that of same-sex marriage. Same with traditional American food and some others. This is an article about the United States of America, not the progress of same-sex marriage. Therefore, "recording" cases won [relating to same-sex marriage] in the article is not appropriate.

Just as a side note: I do not have anything against same-sex marriage or homosexuals.--Rmhs15 (talk) 02:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. This is currently one of the most important issues in American society today, and certainly significant enough as both a political and cultural matter to warrant the coverage it has received. Of course, the history of women's rights is crucial, but this is not, in the end, a history article. The focus here is on what the United States is today, and what makes it distinctive. The issue of same-sex marriage is highly relevant in that context. The passage is restored.—DCGeist (talk) 06:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

is the debate about same sex marriage in the US markedly different from elswere?[[Slatersteven (talk) 17:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)]]

There are much more important, current, issues than same-sex marriage. While same-sex marriage is a recognized "issue" in the media and the political world, it isn't the most important or amongst. For example, immigration (illegal and legal). There has been talk of illegal immigration issues for a while and it has received much more political and media attention than same-sex marriage. Another one is the current economy. Yet, I don't see a paragraph devoted to these two. A couple others (in the past) have been political corruption and police corruption. --Rmhs15 (talk) 18:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

We could certainly stand to have a sentence or two on the issue of immigration--though where, exactly, do you think that would fit in best? As for the economy, that's a perennial issue--a matter of debate in virtually all countries at all times. If the focus on the direction of the country's economic priorities is unusually intense at the moment, the debate is also very diffuse. We can afford to give it some time before coming up with an appropriately summary way of addressing it.—DCGeist (talk) 19:01, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The problem of balancing federalism against the rights of the states is barely mentioned, and that's been and has remained controversial for the entire duration of the existence of the country (for example, same-sex marriage is at many levels a federalism issue because of full faith and credit). The issues with same-sex marriage are a modern phenomenon, and could probably be lumped in with the larger questions of civil rights. My question is: what do the following lines add to an overview article?

Between 2003 and 2009, the supreme courts of Massachusetts, California, Connecticut, and Iowa ruled those states' bans on same-sex marriage unconstitutional. The California ruling was superseded by a state constitutional amendment, approved by voters in November 2008, that defines marriage as between a man and woman; the legality of the amendment is currently being contested in court. Between 2004 and 2008, voters in 13 other states approved similar constitutional bans on same-sex marriage. In 2009, Vermont became the first state to permit same-sex marriage through legislative action.

Again, this article is being crushed by minor details and specifics that are best left to the subarticles. Saying that it is currently controversial and linking an appropriate subarticle should be sufficient. There's a reason this article is massively bloated: there is ridiculous resistance to the removal of these minor details. SDY (talk) 05:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with recasting the passage in summary fashion. Now, just so we're clear on what you're talking about, could you please cite a recent example of "ridiculous resistance"?—DCGeist (talk) 13:25, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Every time someone proposes removing or trimming a section such as this one, it is immediately reverted and defended. This article would never qualify as a FA solely because of the problems with summary style, and removal of details, especially transient information about current events, should be encouraged rather than discouraged. SDY (talk) 14:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

This is not a "transient event"; it has been a major issue in American culture for much of the decade. This is easily confirmed by looking at newspaper coverage or the political history you proposed to excise wholesale. We don't need to be characterizing good-faith, temperate disagreements as "ridiculous." DocKino (talk) 14:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

(undent) I frankly think that we should be wary of WP:UNDUE, simply because issues that have been controversial for a lot longer are given equal or lesser coverage. Like many articles on wikipedia, there's a question of WP:RECENT- is the article about "current status" or "overall history"? I'd prefer to focus on overall history for the overview. Leading on to the expected revert, what benefit does the reader get from having details on the contention? There really isn't a need to persuade the reader it's contentious, it's simply a fact that can be stated. SDY (talk) 14:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

It's agreed that the level of detail that was there was unnecessary. The detail retained in the middle ground version I aimed at demonstrates that it's not just a matter of debate, but a practical matter at the state level and, by implication, in people's daily lives. In particular and in addition, the Vermont law appears to be recognized as representing a significant historical shift.

There's something else to consider. There's an article on Star Trek: The Motion Picture up for FA right now--it's about 14,000 words long and it will almost certainly be approved. A lot of work has gone into trimming this United States article over the past year and warding off new bloat--we've held the line at about 11,000 words. That's long for sure, but evidence suggests that length would not be a problem at FAC at this point.DocKino (talk) 14:56, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Because it’s been around a decade does not stop it being transient, it just makes it current. In order for its inclusion it must be significantly representative of the US, this is not (see below), the debate exists in most western democracies. But at least it is now clear that we actually seem to be talking about state rights, and the relationship between state and federal governments, if this is the case, then culture does not seem the right section.[[Slatersteven (talk) 15:01, 11 May 2009 (UTC)]]

Really? Same-sex marriage is anywhere near as contentious an issue in "most western democracies" as it is in the United States? Please provide some evidence in support of that claim.DocKino (talk) 15:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

And no, we're not talking about the relationship between state and federal governments. The issue has not been federalized at this point. The state activity points up the significant cultural differences between states.DocKino (talk) 15:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with SDY on this. It just seems too specific for an overview article and WP:UNDUE is floating in my mind. For example, the civil rights movement gets a total of two sentences; the moon landing gets one; the Bill of Rights gets three mentions (two of which are the same; one being in the lead, the other in the article itself). ←These are the way concepts should be covered in an overview article. Many times, reasons for additions to this page are rebutted with the fact that the page size is getting too large; this would be an easy way to trim some fat. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 15:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, under my edit we go from 104 words on the topic to 59. I don't see anything left there that could be called "fat". And its coverage is now hardly WP:UNDUE compared to the coverage given other significant contemporary issues such as abortion (64 words), capital punishment (97 words), and health care coverage (108 words). SDY's suggestion that the contentiousness of an issue is "simply a fact that can be stated" without description or contextualization is not encyclopedic; it's equivalent to replacing our literature summary with "Many Americans have written books, some highly regarded".DocKino (talk) 19:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Except that I would include a link to American Literature, probably as a piped link, and people who wanted more information could follow through. For the overview, simply stating that it is true (and citing if likely to be challenged) is sufficient. Details belong in the more focused articles. Vermont's ruling is very important for same sex marriage, but I find it very hard to believe that it was, is, or will be important in the history of the United States. That there have been legal wranglings and checks and balances over the judicial opinions that allowed it in other states is especially irrelevant since the status quo is no change. SDY (talk) 22:44, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

And that would be a terrible edit. Simply having "Same-sex marriage is a contentious issue" as a completely noncontextualized claim is as silly as having "Abortion is a contentious issue" or "Health care coverage is a contentious issue" without context. That's not summary style, that's a string of banalities.

And your claim that "the status quo is no change" is simply not true. The status quo has changed and is changing significantly. Same-sex marriage has now been legalized in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont, and Maine. Within a few months, it is likely to be legal in New Hampshire as well. It was briefly legal in the country's largest state, California, and may be again. It is regarded as an issue that bears significantly on President Obama's choice of nominee for the Supreme Court.DocKino (talk) 23:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL aside, the status quo (no same-sex marriage) was maintained in California, so going into detail on the wrangling on the broad brush of this article. Perhaps limiting the comments to "Same-sex marriage is a contentious issue and is currently legal in one state but constitutionally banned in others." would be reasonable. SDY (talk) 01:13, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

(1) You have raised WP:CRYSTAL inappropriately. There is zero crystal-balling on this issue in the article text. You've made the highly arguable claim that this a "transient" issue and the blatantly false claim that "the status quo is no change", and I have presented a variety of evidence to refute those claims.

(2) You seem to be having a very odd problem retaining information today. Same-sex marriage has now been legalized in five states. Perhaps if I name them once again, you'll be able to retain them: Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont, and Maine. In addition, the legislature of a sixth state, New Hampshire, just passed a bill legalizing the practice; it awaits action by the state's governor.

(3) We're at a perfectly reasonable length now: 59 words as compared to 64 for abortion, 97 for capital punishment, and 108 for health care coverage.DocKino (talk) 01:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

If it means that much to you, have it your way. I have no interest in continuing this increasingly hostile conversation. SDY (talk) 02:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I sense some bias coming from those who support the section as it is. Allow me to explain (will be long). Most of us have been brought up in an open-minded fashion and one that is commonly accepting of other lifestyles. Now lets apply this to our current dispute. Those with the say or the power (well, they are equal to us in power/say but they tend to be the ones reverting and arguing) seem keen to covering same-sex marriage issues as much as they can even though it is not that big of a deal compared to past and current issues. To put this into simple terms, if you go outside and ask people what they think of same-sex marriage, you have to be realistic and accept that the majority of American citizens oppose it. Yes, there will be some who will lean towards "they love each other, and that's what matters". Like it or ignore it, that is simply the way it is. With that being said, I will move on to my next point. Same-sex isn't that big of a deal to "ticket" almost a paragraph. Yes, same-sex marriage has been discussed in Congress. Yes, homosexuals/same-sex marriage exists and we all know of it. Yes, same-sex marriage & homosexuality has received an amount of media and political attention. Yes, there have been protest pro-homosexuality/same-sex marriage. To finish, same-sex marriage is something that is recognized. No-one is denying that. Another one of my major points is that homosexuality has existed ever since Man first walked the Earth. It has always being on the "peoples" mind. Back in the Middle Ages (when the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as official religion), the Church (and therefore the people) declared being a homosexual a sin and something that should be looked down upon. This means, that it has always been controversial both in the media (newspapers & word-of-mouth back then) and the political world.

After all of this, it does NOT warrant an almost whole paragraph in this very popular article (after all, it is about the US of A!). Finally, reduce it to a simply sentence to "Same-sex marriage is currently a controversial issue" or something that is 1 sentence and short.--Rmhs15 (talk) 02:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

As DocKino points out, he cut the coverage of the issue by over 40%. Fifty-nine words hardly constitutes an inordinate amount of coverage, especially compared to other contemporary issues that have received widespread media attention. In fact, the coverage is arguably unduly brief, as there has been substantially more political activity involving the issue in recent years than has involved abortion or capital punishment. Finally, as for bias, I detect none in the language present in the article, which is what matters. Shall we read bias into your insistence that coverage be cut even more drastically? Let's not take the conversation any further in that direction, okay?—DCGeist (talk) 03:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

That not every council in the UK was accepting Civil partnerships within the last decade. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4493094.stm. moreover this http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/samesexmarriage/index.shtml shows that there is a debate in the UK. Sadley i will have to look for other examples at another time but (No sources as yet) New New Zealand's Marriage Act 1955 still only recognizes marriage rights for opposite-sex couples, Israel's High Court of Justice ruled to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other countries, although it is still illegal to perform them within the country, In 2006, a 30 member parliamentary commission of the French National Assembly published a 453 page Report on the Family and the rights of Children, which rejected same-sex marriage. The Canadian Parliament approved same-sex marriage by defining marriage as “between two people” in June, 2005. The Conservative Government introduced a bill proposing to repeal same-sex marriage in Canada in 2006, but it failed at its first reading in 2006, hence same sex marriage continues to be recognized throughout the nation, but there is oppoisition to it (or in other words a debate). At the federal level, Australia bans recognition of same-sex marriage, but the current Australian Labor Party government favors synchronized state and territory registered partnership legislation (as in Tasmania and Victoria). The Australian Capital Territory has civil unions with no official ceremonies, thus a situation not u8nlike that in the US.[[Slatersteven (talk) 15:22, 11 May 2009 (UTC)]]

caption error

In the United States "topographic" map shown on the left of the article, under geography and environment, the caption says "Topographic map of the contiguous United States". However, if one goes to the picture's file page or even looks at it closely, it is obvious that it is not a topographic map, but a satellite image. Refer to the Topographic Map Article for more information. Just want to see this corrected by an admin. 68.81.16.24 (talk) 11:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Addressed.—DCGeist (talk) 15:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)