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May 7

Bicylce Reviews

I am currently looking for a good quality bike with a low price point. I have been looking for a good bicycle review website but I havn't been able to find a website that provides a good non-biased review. It seems that most websites have a sales pitch written somewhere into their review and this immediatly destroys the legitimacy of the review in my eyes. Any websites that you could turn up would really help me make a decision.

Thankyou.

What kind of bike are you looking for? A mountain bike, road bike, hybrid? Or are you just using it to commute? If you are looking for a cheap road bike then you are better off getting a used quality bike (e.g. a trek) than a cheap new bike. If you are in America then you should look on craigslist for a used bike, they usually have some decent ones.Eiad77 (talk) 03:29, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I am actually looking for a new hybrid (for city riding) bicycle and my budget is about $550. I have a few options but no review I've read really gives me what I would call "accurate assesments". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.227.19 (talk) 19:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

You may find something useful at www.ctc.org. Since you are presumably not in the UK (given you quoted a price in foreign currency) it will not all be relevant, but I think you will find some of it useful. --ColinFine (talk) 22:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd second what Eiad said, take a good look at Craigslist and see if anything would fit your needs. You are likely to save hundreds of dollars that way, and if you get a bike that is the right size and in decent shape you probably won't be able to tell the difference. If you are in Winnipeg (as your ip suggests) here is the link. I'd also suggest thinking about if you're going to leave it locked up in public or not. I got a bike off craigslist recently to ride to work, and looked for a cheap one specifically so I wouldn't be too upset if it got stolen. TastyCakes (talk) 22:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Craigslist is all very well, but you might wish to take precautions to ensure you are not purchasing a bicycle which has been stolen from someone else. There is no point in people of good faith feeding the black market. One way around this is to ask (as you are making the appointment to test-ride the machine) to see proof of purchase -- either original receipts, or date-stamped photos of that bicycle in use from a reasonable time ago. A rational owner/seller will not take offence. Or you could purchase from a police auction, knowing that efforts have been made to re-unite the bicycle with its previous owner. BrainyBabe (talk) 11:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Music Theory

What is the major 3rd above E?
—Dromioofephesus (talk) 01:51, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

G#/Ab. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Just to make it clearer, at least for the theory end, a second would be a whole step above E, and a major third would be a whole step above that. Thus, two notes above E is F#, and two notes above that is G#. See Major scale. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:37, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's completely correct to say that Ab is the major 3rd from E. Although they are enharmonics, that doesn't necessarily mean they are completely equivalent. E Major's third note is G#, not Ab. bibliomaniac15 03:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

You are right about that. The 4th note is an A, so there cannot also be an Ab in the scale. Under modern tunings, its a moot point, but the pedantic rule of "one of each note per scale" seems to hold here. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:37, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

It isn't necessarily about the E major scale, though. All we were given was the note E. If the scale were C, G or D major, the major third above E would be G. For A, E or B major, it would of course be G#. The note E doesn't appear in any other major scales. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:11, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed a major third above E is G#. E to Ab is a diminished fourth. Also, E to G natural, in any scale is a minor third. Major thirds contain four semitone half-steps. E to G natural spans only three semitones, which is a minor third. For example, a C major chord contains the notes C, E, and G, or a major third and a minor third. In short, musical intervals are more basic than scales--the scale is irrelevant to the interval's identity. Also, while it may seem pedantic to distinguish G# and Ab, and there is little need to do so if you are just trying to play or write music, if you want to understand harmony and why it works they way it does, modulation between keys, and tonality in general, it is important to understand why a major third is not harmonically equal to a diminished fourth, even if the pitches are enharmonically identical. An example: J.S. Bach always, as far as I know, wrote notes with the harmonically "correct" accidentals. If a note functioned harmonically as a major third, he wrote it as such, if as a diminished fourth, he wrote it that way. Nevermind that equal temperament did not yet exist--he still has 12 keys per octave, G# and Ab shared the same key the keyboard. He simply knew how harmony functions. Pfly (talk) 08:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

yeah, but such distinctions are still pedantic. If I modulate up a whole step, all of my notes modulate up a whole step. I move my fingers two frets to the right on my guitar (or two keys to the right on the piano) and that holds true whether I call the note G# or Ab. Harmonically as well, it's the equivalent of understanding the rules of placing commas. It only matters to music theorists... If I call the note G# or I call it Ab it makes the same sound when I press that key on the piano. The way that note harmonically interacts with other notes is also identical whether or not I call it G# or Ab. Quick, play an E major chord, but think about the middle note really hard as an Ab. Now play an E major chord, but concentrate really hard on making that middle note a G#. Notice that it sounds the same? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 00:50, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The statement the scale is irrelevant to the interval's identity is accurate only for equal temperament. If you want your major fifths to be genuinely 3:2 and your major thirds 4:35:4, your instrument needs to be tuned to a particular key. --Trovatore (talk) 18:29, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Jayron32, by harmony I meant not single chords, but chord progressions, voice leading, cadences, tonality and keys, modulation, etc. It may be that the desire to understand harmonic progressions is music theory, but that term, "music theory" seems to have acquired connotations of merely analyzing music in scholarly and fairly useless ways--perhaps even to the detriment of making good music! To my eyes, and ears, having terms like "major third" within a (somewhat) logical language can help musicians see patterns more clearly. Seeing the patterns more clearly must be of use in composing, improvising, etc. Ymmv, of course, and we can agree to differ, especially having wandered from the OP's question into the thickets. Pfly (talk) 09:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Maintaining the proper intervals (ie....major 3rd vs "diminished 4th") is important in assisting instrumentalists(and singers) play in tune. Pressing the keys of a wind instrument does not automatically lead to the note being in tune like it does for a piano or guitar. Similarly a string player has no frets to define what each note "is." Ensemble tuning is a matter of listening, knowing what the note should sound like and altering technique. Using a # or a b (or even a double # or double b) within a particular gives the player hints to where their note sits harmonically among the notes being played by other players. It also makes reading scores much easier. E Ab B doesn't look like a major chord because A is in the space adjacent the B line (in the treble clef). If you played a C# Augmented chord the notes should read C# E# G double-sharp, because an augmented chord consists of two stacked major thirds. C-E is a third, E-G is a third. If you wrote it C# F A, C-F is a fourth and F-A is a third, it would look like a chord in second inversion which it is not. 60.242.240.24 (talk) 05:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

In lots of early twentieth century music based on equal divisions of the octave (whole tone scale, diminished seventh chord, and augmented chord) it becomes necessary to include enharmonic intervals. Let's say that we want to divide the octave C-C into major thirds, you could go C-E-G#-C or C-E-Ab-C. But there is no way to do it without using a diminished fourth. This makes reading whole-tone scales, augmented chords, and diminished sevenths in inversions a bit tricky, because either you end up with lots of double sharps/flats, or you end up with a chord that has the wrong shape. --203.129.45.73 (talk) 05:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Why is there softcore porn on DeviantART?

There's plenty of softcore porn on DeviantART. It's supposed to be 'erotica' but it's closer to either non-nude pornography (not underage, of course) or some sort of glamour fetish modelling. It's just softcore porn, there's no real 'art' in most of it. What gives?--Yo Dawg! What's Going On Today? (talk) 02:19, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

What give you the right to define art for other people? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I would definitely hit it, but this... why doesn't she just go on SuicideGirls instead? Not enough tattoos? Thank god... (that there are people out there that still think that tattoos are ugly, I mean I'm ok with some piercings but tattoos I find to be pretty much universally ugly)...--Yo Dawg! What's Going On Today? (talk) 12:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)--Yo Dawg! What's Going On Today? (talk) 12:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, DevArt. 30% furries, 30% porn, 20% macabre, 10% emoticons, 9.99% other crap, and 0.01% actually good art. bibliomaniac15 04:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I never said it was my kind of art, but art is one of those things that you cannot define for other people. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Possibly true. Can porn ever be art? Because that link I just posted above, it's not really any better than what you see on some softcore porn sites.--Yo Dawg! What's Going On Today? (talk) 12:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Can pictures of naked people be art? Sure. See Depictions of nudity for examples, or L'Origine du monde as a specific example. Can pictures of sexual acts be art? Sure, see History of erotic depictions (a former Today's Featured Article) and Erotic art, or The Garden of Earthly Delights for a specific example. At what level does art become pornography? Its subjectively up to the viewer. You decide for yourself what is art and what is porn. You don't get to make that distinction for others, however... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is worse. I just had a look at the various versions of The Birth of Venus. Why does it peddle this smut? When I was young we had laws about this sort of thing. etc etc rant rant rant Dmcq (talk) 07:57, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not peddling anything, simply making information available for those who want to know what The Birth of Venus looks like. (It looks pretty good to me, I'm sorry it doesn't look good to you.)--86.25.194.130 (talk) 10:07, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

He was being sarcastic. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think disambig pages look particularly good. To each his own. Tempshill (talk) 20:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Now there's a challenge! —Tamfang (talk) 22:11, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to be sarcastic but on a quick look round there it seemed pretty innocuous to me, especially by the standard of most arts organizations and more so when it is called deviant. Sounds to me like the OP has had some pretty strict parential filters on in the past. Dmcq (talk) 23:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Modelling scams?

Hello,

My girlfriend responded to an ad for models/tv extras, and the guy who interviewed her was ostensibly impressed by her, telling her there would be lots of work for her etc. The catch of course is that he wants her to do a photoshoot with them, costing $400. What I want to know is if it's common for agencies to do this just to make money without really being interested in getting the prospective model work. Generally, what proportion of those who go for photoshoots end up getting work? The company in question is Real People, based in Melbourne, and seems like a reputable company, but who knows?

Hope someone can help, thanks. 220.253.15.14 (talk) 07:44, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

• Don't. If a reputable company is really interested in representing a model, they will pay for the photoshoot themselves (see http://www.modelingadvice.com/Scams.html) - Mgm|^(talk) 08:51, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, there are very few models actually needed out there compared to the number of people in the general population. I've known a few girls who have done modelling of various kinds, but that's just a couple out of the thousands of people I've met in my life.--Yo Dawg! What's Going On Today? (talk) 12:29, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

This is an extremely common scam. Don't fall for it. --Tango (talk) 16:33, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Reputable agencies should be able to agree to take the money out of her first pay-check. Are they also offering any training? If she really wants to do this she might fare better if she found a good photographer and has a couple of pictures with a variety of settings, clothing, hairdos taken over a certain period. Use this portfolio to apply at companies that do mail order catalogs, department store fliers or at a reputable agency. At the very least they can direct her to a proper place to contact. TV extras is different. (OR) They usually get hired directly by the studio or the staffer for the show/movie. She'll get "reimbursed for her time" which usually beats the pay at flipping burgers, but can't compete with any decent paying job. Plus the assignments are few and far between. (After all people don't want to recognize one of the "women walking across medieval market square" as the same person cheering for the "wheel of fortune" contestant or standing in a crowd at a crime scene :-). If she does go for it, watch her health!! There are still a bunch of idiots in the industry who believe only emaciated, semi-starved figures are beautiful (Ugh!) The chamber of commerce and/or the better business bureau are also good places to ask about this company. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 18:46, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

This is what I loathed about the Australian film industry - it's backwards, not just in your modeling/talent agencies, but also your crew agencies. In other countries your crew agencies find you work. In Australia you find your own work and pay your crew agency to handle the payment. Even though this type of modeling scam is very common in other countries, I found it especially common in Australia - in fact I found it very difficult to find a decent agent in Australia. Most of them make their money from people paying them for unnecessary training courses and unnecessary photo shoots. They will advertise in newspapers and on the web. They will tell you that you've "got the look" or that "x factor" and that you need to go for training and it's only $2,000. Well here's the deal: a lot of these agencies are legitimate in the sense that they do get clients asking for models and actors and they do get some legitimate business, but as someone else pointed out there isn't a fortune of work out there and there are zillions of agents. If the agent is really convinced that you've got talent (be it acting talent, a character face, or if you're really drop-dead gorgeous) and if they're really convinced that you'll bring them business, then believe me they will be more than happy to take you onto their books for free and pay for any portfolio photo shoots or training. Training isn't necessary. For commercials actors and models are cast mostly based on looks, if they have a talking role or need to perform then they will be passed on to audition. It is only for serious roles like movies that you might need training or experience - and for those type of roles you have your high-end agencies that won't accept you no matter how much you pay them - they want people with years of experience. So the bottom line is this: if you're a model, you probably will need some shots taken - even an actor will need one good head shot taken. You should ask the agency if you can provide your own photos (maybe you can find a student photographer that will give you a good deal), or ask if they have an in-house photographer and if they can give you a good rate. The truth is they all have 'in-house photographers', who are all really untalented students who do the work for almost free while the agency pockets the $400. A good rate is something like $99. $400 is profiteering. But now here's the reality - 99 out of 100 agencies aren't interested - they want you to use their in-house photographer, they will say it costs $400 and they won't budge. So you've got to be crafty. One thing you can try is to just 'rock up' and try and woo them with your personality and good looks. Don't say you're responding to an ad, in fact maybe say you were referred by a friend, and walk in their like you've been in the industry for a while and they should be so lucky to have you. Say you need an agent and ask them if you can join their books. Good luck, and remember, the Australian industry sucks. By the way, I think joining fees are illegal in Queensland or one of the states - at least there's some hope! Rfwoolf (talk) 02:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Font rendering programmes

I'm having trouble viewing certain fonts (e.g., Etruscan, runes, etc.) what can I use to view these fonts on Wikipedia?Pandoradude (talk) 10:58, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

There are various free multilanguage fonts out there, the one I use is Code2000 (there's a download link in our article, just download and install code2000 and code2002 as you would any other font). I'm not sure right now whether it includes Etruscan, but it's pretty comprehensive. -- Ferkelparade π 13:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

See also the information and links in Help:Special characters and Help:Multilingual support. Deor (talk) 19:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but I think i'm missing something. Either that or I really am not very bright. I don't understand how the site works once I've clicked "Download"Pandoradude (talk) 08:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

What is this form of Internet humor called?

This is an example of an ongoing gag on the net ... What is this gag with a funny pic and a witty caption referred to as? In other words is there a name to this black-photo frame wit? --59.182.9.110 (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

It's a spoof on the Motivational poster. Despair.com (article?) has made a good business out of lampooning them. Dismas|^(talk) 12:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

They might also fall under an image macro, but like Dismas said, that specific look lampoons motivational posters. Livewireo (talk) 13:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Specifically it's a parody of the "Successories" style of motivational poster. Mike R (talk) 14:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Should just mention... Please don't post a question on more than one desk.Popcorn II (talk) 18:25, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry removed from WP:RD/E --59.182.79.142 (talk) 08:14, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

They're demotivational posters chandler ··· 22:22, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

People call them "Motivational" Posters. Really, they just give you a good laugh, no motivating to it, unless you look really hard for ones on wheight loss. A good place to find them would be a website called 4-chan, or four chan.com.. Not too sure, never been there myself, but I'm told thats where they either origonally started, or, are posted the most. Gothrokkprincess (talk) 16:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

How do seals impact other species?

I'm curious about seals and the seal hunt. I know seals are carnivorous and eat other species. So, I'm curious about how the seals impact other species? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.56.86.35 (talk) 15:18, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

With a squishy thud?

Seriously, you may have to be more specific on which species but in general they either 1) eat them 2) get eaten by them 3) eat the same food as them and so compete directly with the other species 4) don't affect them AllanHainey (talk) 15:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

If we are talking California seals you also have to consider 5) Kelp which is kept in check by the seals disturbing the water. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 18:18, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Some seals are surprisingly close to the top of the food chain: Leopard seals eat penguins - and sometimes other species of seal. But how they impact them is hard to say. Sometimes predation is good for a species - gets rid of the weak ones, prevents over population. Sometimes, it's not so good and can drive down the population of their victims. SteveBaker (talk) 23:15, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! That's helpful. I'm not really sure which species but I've seen the ones along the coast of British Columbia, Canada. I was just wondering if they are not hunting other species into extinction?? Apparently they are almost overly numerous and I got the impression that locals considered them how we consider gophers here in the prairies where I live. Gophers are cute little rodents, not unlike the rat where they eat everything they see and multiply continuously destroying everything in their path. We've actually seen them eat their own dead. So, I often wonder how much all these animal rights groups only protect animals that they deem "cute". Seems hypocritical to me if that's the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.56.86.35 (talk) 15:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The most controversial naggingly ongoing cases in the US over the last 15 years or so has been over various subspecies of the Spotted Owl, which is not particularly cute. (To non-owls, anyway.) Tempshill (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Have you read Seal hunting and, for one example in detail, 2008 Canadian commercial seal hunt? BrainyBabe (talk) 13:03, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I truly don't understand this issue. I've read all the wikis. Seems a little heavy on the one side (animal rights activists) and only allusions to the other side. Has anyone ever been to a farm or slaughter house? People just seem to want to conveniently not know where food or products come from and live their oblivious lives and then get upset about seals over a nice steak dinner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.56.86.35 (talk) 15:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC) Finally found a page that mostly answers my question: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/05/05/f-seal-hunt.html

Date of publication?

Charles F. Easton's "Mt. Baker: Stories, Legends and Explorations" Kittybrewster ☎ 17:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

If you need this in a bibliography, check on the title page. Otherwise Google Book Search might help. MTM (talk) 18:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Google books doesn't seem to have it - although there is a book by the same author with a very similar title: "Mt. Baker, Its Trails and Legends A Chronology of the Discovery, Exploration..." the Google Books page is here. It seems that Mr Easton is a member of the Mt.Baker club - and has written a ton of stuff relating to it. SteveBaker (talk) 22:58, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

How can a patent apply to a locomotive paint scheme?

This patent protects an "ornamental design for a locomotive body", but I thought patents were only for inventions. Shouldn't this have been registered as a trademark? --NE2 18:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

There is something called a "design patent". It is not for inventions, but for a particular ornamental design. That's what you're talking about. Notice at the top of this particular patent it says "Des." and then the patent number. Tempshill (talk) 20:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Also, here's a patent on swinging sideways instead of back and forth on a playground swing, so there's obviously a certain amount of napping going on at the USPTO. --Sean 14:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Whopper

Is Burger King's Whopper grilled over an open flame?--Pufferfish4 (talk) 18:15, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's broiled over and under two open flames; see Grilling#Broiling. Deor (talk) 19:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Olympic half-brick tossing

A couple of months ago, User:Rmhermen remarked here, "You can't hardly throw a stick without hitting a casino"; and a few hours later User:Fullobeans observed, "You can't throw a rock in a city without hitting a doctor or a cultural site." It reminds me that for P. G. Wodehouse (or at least for Bertie Wooster) the thing that you can't throw without hitting <something abundant> was always a half-brick. Is there a cherished tradition in England of hurling half-bricks? Do young flingers hope someday to graduate to full bricks? Is Unhalfbricking relevant here? —Tamfang (talk) 20:47, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

There certainly does seem to be something of a tradition; in the second paragraph of Kingsley's The Water-Babies, for instance, one can read: "One day a smart little groom rode into the court where Tom lived. Tom was just hiding behind a wall, to heave half a brick at his horse's legs, as is the custom of that country when they welcome strangers. …" I know I've seen similar instances in a number of works of fiction. It's my interpretation that half bricks are used because they can be tossed a greater distance than whole ones, thus allowing for greater opportunities for concealment and escape on the part of the tossers. Deor (talk) 21:04, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The locus classicus is surely the Punch cartoon with the caption "Here's a stranger, let's 'eave 'alf a brick at him." (googling turns up plenty of places where this is quoted, though I haven't found a reference to its original date). --ColinFine (talk) 22:44, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Another cartoon variant is a Krazy Kat strip in which Ignatz splits his brick so that he can have twice the fun by beaning the cat with each half. The last panel has Krazy lamenting to Offica Pupp that it means Ignatz only loves her/him half as much. Deor (talk) 01:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

My favorite varient of this turn of phrase was always... "You can't Swing a dead cat without hitting..." Far more pleasing to the imagination than throwing halfbricks, now, isn't it? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 00:42, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

At a banquet in Montreal ("in this ostensibly foreign land") held in his honour, Mark Twain said, "This is the first time I was ever in a city where you couldn't throw a brick without breaking a church window." [1] The American comic writer may have popularised the phrase. BrainyBabe (talk) 11:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

My guess would be that half-bricks are more often available for throwing than whole ones - whole ones get used to build things. Half-bricks have no purpose beyond being thrown. Also, a half-brick is a more convenient shape for through, being close to spherical. --Tango (talk) 15:13, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Half bricks are quite necessary for building depending on which bond style you are laying ([2]) But they are closer to round. Rmhermen (talk) 20:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

True, but when I think of half bricks I think of ones that have been dropped or something and have broken unintentionally (so not a nice clean split down the middle). --Tango (talk) 22:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

When laying bricks you need half bricks for the corners. Usually you'd split full bricks in half by hitting them with a hammer. They then get tossed onto a pile till they are needed. If you toss them too far (with too much force) you end up with damaged brick. Doing the splitting separately will let you keep your rhythm while "buttering" and laying the bricks and some people are better at getting clean splits than others. So you'll want your best man (or woman) do the splitting. (OR) 71.236.24.129 (talk) 01:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

When they built my house (about 10 years ago), they used a big electric table-saw to cut the bricks in half - there was very little wastage indeed. SteveBaker (talk) 03:45, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh boy, now I feel old. I learned laying bricks about 30 years ago. I don't think I'll go to the trouble of renting a table saw to replace our retaining wall next month when a hammer can do the job just as well. :-) Would be interesting to see who was faster, s. b. with a table saw or a good worker with a hammer. I guess it's cheaper to hire s.o. to operate a saw then to find s.o. who gets good results using a hammer. The "clean cut" is definitely a plus, but you'd usually turn the "crooked" edge to be hidden, facing the adjacent brick on the inside. Do you remember whether they stacked the sawed half bricks or did they pile them, too? 71.236.24.129 (talk) 09:35, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

As I recall, they had one guy sawing the bricks and stacking them in a wheelbarrow - and another guy wheeling it around to the actual bricklayers (of which there were several). They bricked the outside of our (large) house in two days - despite several complicated bits like archways and decorative patterns...it was impressive to see it happen. I wonder why the brickyards don't just make half bricks at the outset. (Well, I guess I practically answered that - it's a lot easier to cut tapered bricks for making archways using a saw...they guy with the hammer would have had a much tougher job doing that well). SteveBaker (talk) 15:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

How long should you wait before you cheat on your girlfriend if she is in a coma?

I don't even know if it should be considered cheating, but let's say my girlfriend is in a coma and the doctor says it's quite the heavy coma and they don't know if or when she is going to come out of the coma. Would you consider it cheating? How long would you wait before you went on the prowl?

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.16.126 (talk) 23:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The reference desk is a place to ask for facts, not opinions or discussions. We can't really help you with this. It's entirely dependant on you. Vimescarrot (talk) 00:27, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we know the situation well enough to help, I'm afraid. We don't know how serious your relationship was before she fell into the coma, we don't know if you are asking about casual sex or a new long term relationship, we don't know what you girlfriend's views would be, etc. I think you need to consider these questions, perhaps talk to friends or family that know you and/or your girlfriend, and decide for yourself. --Tango (talk) 00:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

quite the heavy coma .froth. (talk) 00:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

$T_{x}{=}\mathrm {Z} \cdot {\sqrt {\lambda }}\cdot \psi$ —D. Monack ^talk 02:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Our articles Girlfriend in a Coma (song) and Girlfriend in a Coma (novel) might be helpful — but almost certainly won't be. —D. Monack ^talk 03:00, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I guess this person has seen the Seinfeld episode when Jerry's neighbour goes into a coma and Jerry 'cheats' with his girlfriend, Kramer reckons that everything goes after (I think) 48 hours as he's worried about getting his vacuum cleaner back. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

If you had sex with her while she's in a coma, would that be considered cheating?--80.3.135.106 (talk) 09:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that would be rape. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Unless she consented before going into the coma, yes, it would be. --Tango (talk) 12:51, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

That'd be a pretty weird clause for a Living will. APL (talk) 14:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I've never heard of such a clause, but as far as I know it would be legal. --Tango (talk) 15:10, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Police in Wisconsin installed a hidden video camera in the nursing home room of a woman in a persistent coma after a stroke, and arrested her husband for having sex with her. An appeals court said the taping violated his Fourth Amendment constitutional rights. Police and prosecutors claimed it was "felony sexual assault" for the man to have sex with his comatose wife. Edison (talk) 17:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Tempshill (talk) 20:00, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26661840/ — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 13:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

If you actually Love or care about her, you'd wait by her side until she wakes up. No matter how long it is. And if you don't(Seeing as though you would even consider such a thing, proves such to be partially true) then you wait it out, and after about a year and a half, you go ahead, find someone, but when she wakes up, be sure to let her down easy. Note - Bringing your new love to show to her to explain, will most likely make her die of either a heart attack, suicide, or in jail for attempt of attacking you. Gothrokkprincess (talk) 16:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

May 8

LDS Church wordmark

What is the font that is used in the logo for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? CL — 00:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

It looks like a Garamond. The source PDF is bad, since it replaced fonts with their outlines. MTM (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Google "font identifier" and you'll find sites like this which ask questions about the font; and there's a site out there somewhere that lets you upload an image file and it attempts to automatically identify it. Tempshill (talk) 20:02, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

http://new.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/. It's not Garamond (Adobe Garamond at least) - the J and the serifs on the Es and Ts are wrong. WhatTheFont doesn't get it either, unfortunately. — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 14:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Bembo? —Tamfang (talk) 02:08, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Name of Violin Song

What is this popular violin tune in the background of the video at 1:36?

[[3]]

Video is work-safe. Acceptable (talk) 02:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe it's Quintet in A minor, Op. 25:Minuetto by Boccherini. AlexiusHoratius 02:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, that's the one. Thank you! Acceptable (talk) 02:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

movie and video game ratings

hi, i'm from india. here, we don't have strict rules and regulations for movies and games adn even a 12-year old can play gta: san andreas, regardless of whatever rating.. i want to know if in the US, the UK and Australia and other developed countries, the video game and movie ratings are stictly adhered to or not. thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.134.5 (talk) 08:54, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

In the UK it is a criminal offence to sell the video game to someone who is under the certification age on the box. So if a game is a certificate 18 it legally can only be sold to someone who is aged 18 years old or over. What happens when a game gets into a household is clearly another matter. Trevor Marron (talk) 10:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted however that (in the UK) the system is not very strictly enforced (in comparison to film ratings) which is a major issue in trying to control mature content. 217.206.155.146 (talk) 11:06, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Australia is the same as the UK for movie and game ratings (although for some reason we don't have any "adults only" ratings for games, games rated as unsuitable for people under 15 years are banned - see the OFLCA entry in Video game content rating system# Comparison). Age restricted movies or games can not be purchased by younger people, but there are no laws preventing them from watching them. --Polysylabic Pseudonym (talk) 11:13, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

It's like alcohol. You can't buy it but if someone wants to buy it for someone underage and on private property they can, not an unreasonable setup really. 217.206.155.146 (talk) 12:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Er, you need to specify where you're talking about. The circumstances will change things, but serving liquor to underage people is just as criminal an act in Canada and the US as selling them liquor is. By "circumstances" I mean the general acceptance of allowing youngsters a sip of wine or something at special occasions. Matt Deres (talk) 12:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

In USA there is no legal weight to the ratings. Some stores will refuse to sell M games to minors, but the ratings are mostly intended to be advisory. APL (talk) 14:27, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

In the US, the ESRB is an industry-funded nongovernment body that assigns ratings to video games based on the content that the publishers report. There is no legal requirement that video game publishers put an ESRB rating on their product, but all three console manufacturers do require it, and the large retail chains in the US (such as Wal-Mart and Target) require an ESRB rating for computer games as well, or they refuse to distribute them; so as a practical matter, any game on a shelf in America is going to have an ESRB rating on it. If the publisher misreports the content in their application to the ESRB, they're contractually subject to heavy fines from the ESRB, and there can be product recalls (see Hot Coffee minigame controversy). APL is correct that selling an "M" (for "Mature") rated game to a minor is not a criminal offense in any state in the US; several states have proposed, or possibly passed, legislation to make this happen, but these efforts have all been struck down by judges who agree with the publishers and retailers that criminalizing the sale of "M" games to minors would be a violation of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Some retail chains (like Wal-Mart, supposedly) are strict about asking for identification to verify that a young-looking person is 17 or older; other retail chains aren't, and from time to time in the US there are stories in the press about how in a "sting operation" some large percentage of minors were able to buy the latest Grand Theft Auto game, or Mortal Kombat, or whatever violent game is currently popular. Tempshill (talk) 16:25, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Does this make sense

From the CNN: "The Laos government said Samantha Orobator will no longer face the death penalty, because Laotian law does not allow the execution of a pregnant woman." Samantha Orobator is pregnant, however, they could execute here in a couple of months, couldn't they?--80.58.205.37 (talk) 10:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

They could, but they seem to be trying to signal that the really don't intend to. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

This is actually the plot of the first act of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. The authorities won't send Sophia Loren to jail because she's pregnant, so she purposefully keeps getting pregnant. Hijinks ensue.Tomdobb (talk) 12:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The Laotian governemt hasn't actually executed anyone for twenty years, and are unlikely to start again now, especially with their attempts in the last ten or so years to improve their international image. They still hand out death sentences, but don't actually act on them. Fribbler (talk) 14:00, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Kind of like California then. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 16:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Followup question

Are there any known cases of a government knowingly executing a pregnant woman? --Sean 14:32, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Nazi Germany. Tempshill (talk) 16:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you referring to a specific case, or just the general mass murder they carried out? I was thinking of a more civilized government, I suppose. --Sean 18:07, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I would be most surprised if this has happened under the current U.S. legal system... if a teenage girl was sentenced to death, she'd be post-menopausal by the time the sentence was carried out. Aylad ['ɑɪlæd] 18:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Well it depends what you mean by current: Bathsheba Spooner. I don't doubt many a despot has done this but there is a general abhorrence of it in all but the cruellest of regimes and most places have probably had something like the English pleading the belly for many centuries. meltBanana 19:00, 8 May 2009 (UTC) Khrushchev claimed Liri Gega was pregnant when the Albanians executed her in 1956 although they denied it and there are claims similar executions in Iran during the Islamic revolution there but I can't track down much more than rumour. It is expressly forbidden under ICCPR article 6(5) and several other recent human rights statutes. Going much further back Felicitas is recorded in The Passion of St. Perpetua, St. Felicitas, and their Companions of being worried that she will not suffer martyrdom with her companions as she is pregnant and pregnant women were not allowed to be killed in the Roman circus. 'Luckily' she has a premature birth so she could be attacked by a wild cow and executed by the sword. meltBanana 21:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Well the executions of people for crimes commited while under the age of 18 is also forbidden under the ICCPR but it hasn't stopped Iran (in particular) but also China, D.R. Congo, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, the United States and Yemen from doing it. Although China, Pakistan, the United States and Yemen are supposed to have stopped. See Capital punishment#Juvenile offenders Nil Einne (talk) 10:05, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

As China, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia or the U.S. are not members of the treaty, it is not clear why it should have stopped them. Rmhermen (talk) 18:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems generally unlikely - if only because murderers are generally kept in jail and the process of appeals and other legalities takes well over a year to work through (frequently 10 years or more). So it's hard to see how a woman could still be pregnant when executed. However, in more brutal countries, these niceties may not be observed - so I suppose anything is possible. SteveBaker (talk) 23:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

In relation to the first reply, Unit 731. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 12:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Further followup

How pregnant do you have to be to prevent the execution? In countries where abortion is legal would the term limit apply? Otherwise couldn't women on death row use conjugal visits to get pregnant and avoid execution? 86.8.176.85 (talk) 06:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty certain you have to be completely pregnant. Partially pregnant wouldn't cut it. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:39, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Paying for incoming calls and SMSes in the USA

I'm not familiar with American mobile market. What is the usual situation now: do you pay for incomig calls and SMSes or not? Is it true that more and more mobile operators launch new tariff plans with incoming calls and SMSes for free? Are they becoming popular? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.158.197.100 (talk) 13:54, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The answer for this can get fairly complicated but basically, incoming calls are subtracted from your pool of minutes be they "Anytime" or "Nights & weekends." Anytime minutes are generally weekday work hours and are a finite amount. Nights and weekends are typically unlimited. You have to pay for incoming text messages unless you have a plan in which case they're subtracted from the amount on your plan (which may also be unlimited). Some service providers are now overing all in one "unlimited" plans, which include voice, text, data and sometimes GPS for one flat fee. I believe everything on these plans is without limit except anytime minutes. Tomdobb (talk) 14:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Why do American consumers accept such an outrageous system? All incoming calls and texts have been free in the UK for as long as I can remember. It makes no sense to charge somebody for something they have no control over. --Tango (talk) 15:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I supposed it doesn't seem that outrageous to us. You can have text messaging blocked and you can decline a call. I don't know what mobile phone service costs in the UK, so that may have something to do with it. Texts in the U.S. are usually a 15-25 cent charge, if you don't have a plan. I think I pay something like $10 for 1,000 texts (incoming/outgoing combined) a month plan. Tomdobb (talk) 15:13, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

An addendum: several providers will not subtract any minutes for calls within the same network, regardless if they're anytime, nights and weekends, incoming or outgoing. That is, if a Verizon customer calls another Verizon customer, there is no loss of available minutes for either customer. Tomdobb (talk) 15:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

And what if a seller sends you a SMS or calls you? Do you have to pay to be disturbed? Of course, you can decline any call, but you won't know who's calling until you answer.--80.58.205.37 (talk) 15:16, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

In my experience, SMS spam isn't terribly common. Certainly mileage may vary, but I don't think I've ever received any. I believe all providers in the U.S. offer caller ID as a free feature, so you should be able to tell who's calling without answering the phone, but if you insist on answering I can't imagine you'd burn through too many minutes before realizing it's a marketer and hanging up. The lowest plans are usually 400-500 anytime minutes (6-8 hours) plus unlimited in network and nights and weekends, so unless you're awfully chatty, you have a lot of time to burn. Futhermore, you can add your number to a Do Not Call Registry to avoid this type of call in the first place. Tomdobb (talk) 15:22, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I actually think the idea of making the recipient pay for incoming calls is an excellent one, as it gives them an incentive to bring the call to an end. Which can only be a good thing. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe it is actually illegal in the United States for a telemarketer to call a cell phone number. I am more than happy to exchange this minor impact upon the First Amendment to the United States Constitution in order to achieve civilization. Tempshill (talk) 16:37, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

@Tomdobb: Caller ID is not that useful when the caller withholds it! --ColinFine (talk) 17:06, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall the details anymore, but the American position was explicitly chosen to be different from the European position (in which, presumably, caller pays). There was a relatively good reason given -- but I can't remember what it was. It's also tied up somehow with cell phones NOT being restricted to specific area codes and exchanges (city codes and prefixes) -- this allows European callers to KNOW they're making an extra cost call and avoid it if they wish.

Such a policy may have been to encourage the adoption of the technology. How exactly, I'm not sure. But anyway, the decision was not an accident.

In answer to "how do we accept such an outrageous system", history is also the guide. At the beginning of the technology rollout, basic landline service was readily available and pretty darn reliable -- not always the case in some parts of Europe. (Buy a cell phone today or order a line for delivery in three months? Not a tough decision!) So, cell phones were pitched not as "just another alternative", but as an upscale feature for the man who can't afford to be out of contact with his people. Pay extra? No problem, the company's paying for it anyway!

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 22:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about eastern Europe, but western Europe has had near universal coverage by landlines for a long time, as far as I know. The UK certainly has. There might be a few people in the middle of nowhere, but 99.99% of population have had access to phone lines for ages. I don't see what area codes have to do with. Sure, I know how much I'm going to pay for a call by looking at the number (roughly, at least), but we're talking about incoming calls.--Tango (talk) 23:36, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Area codes have to do with knowing what you're calling. In the US, mobile phones have numbers that look exactly like land-line numbers. There is no way for a caller to know they are calling a mobile. In most other places, mobile phones have their own, non-geographic area codes, which means you know when your calling a mobile, and can know you will be charged more. /85.194.44.18 (talk) 15:41, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, so an outgoing call to a mobile costs the same as one to a landline in the US, with the difference in cost being made up by charging the receiver? Now I get the point! That doesn't explain paying to recieve SMS's, though. --Tango (talk) 15:57, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The latter is strictly "because they can". SMS is basically pure profit margin for the wireless companies. — Lomn 22:23, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

<pedantry> Not exactly 'no way'; one could in principle get a list of exchanges which, I believe, would tell you that 415-225-xxxx is a Sprint mobile number. </pedantry> But, yeah, a court ruling forbids distinguishing types of service by area-code (except in NYC where a separate code for mobiles was already well established; now that NYC has overlays, even that may have been merged into the general pool?). —Tamfang (talk) 02:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

In the UK (and the rest of Europe I think) we have what is referred to as the 'Inter-connect Charge' (or termination fee) which is a fee paid by the caller's cellular carrier to the carrier the call connects to. So if an O2 customer calls a Vodafone customer then O2 pay Vodafone the termination fee. This is not what is done in the USA, there is no termination fee, the caller pays his end, the receiver theirs. Incidentally, I am old enough to remember having to pay to receive calls and SMS messages in the UK. Also this is still the case when roaming outside the UK.

salami and penicillin

The salami article said that salami is sometimes treated with penicillium. I am allergic to penicillin-based medications, so should I be concerned about eating salami?

I know the whole thing about not asking for medical advice here -- I'm not -- I guess the focus of my question is, does the penicillium remain on the meat, or does some part of the manufacturing/packaging process kill it before it hits retail? Aylad ['ɑɪlæd] 16:03, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The salami article says some unspecified species of Penicillium is applied to the casing of the salami and that most salami have the mold or the casing removed before being sold in international markets. (No citation for this statement) According to a WWII era paper I pulled up on Penicillin instability, in aqueous solution at room temperature at pH 4.5 which sounds reasonable for meat cured using sugar and bacteria, Penicillin loses 99 percent of its activity in about 150 hours. I'm not sure if deactivated Penicillin can trigger allergic reactions. Other foods that contain cultured Penicillium (not the same species used for the antibiotic) include Brie, Gorgonzola, Roquefort, Camembert, and Danish Blue cheeses which are definitely still active cultures when they are bought by consumers. Do note that I am in no way implying it is or isn't safe for someone with penicillin allergies to eat salami which has been treated with Penicillium. (That would be medical advice and I'd feel bad if someone had anaphylaxis because they assumed I know what I'm talking about.) Sifaka ^talk 00:40, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Material lifecycle

Of the lifecycle of a material, from the extraction of raw materials to recycling, choosing between either timber, metal, glass, concrete, brick or stone, which would be the most interesting to write about? 148.197.114.207 (talk) 16:37, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Huh... interesting question. I'd find metal or timber most interesting, I think, because each has many processes from raw material (trees/ore) to finished product to recycling. --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 17:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Glass is pretty versatile. See Optical fiber, Fiberglass, Glass-reinforced plastic, Glass microsphere, Lens (optics), Lead glass, Tiffany glass, Vitreous enamel, Bead, Glass House etc. Or just start from Glass and work your way through the links from there. As far as recycling goes, you can even grind it up and use it as sand on the beach again [4] or just build your house from bottles [5] :-). What is most interesting is in the eye of the writer and the reader. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 10:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Choose the one you think most challenging, it'll stretch you more and make you a better writer. Whole books can and probably have been written on each stage of each of those. I've bought books on things like dust or the number zero or clouds. Dmcq (talk) 12:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Media: to pay or not to pay

How can we monetize media (like films, songs, news)? Can we only charge for using it (like selling a DVD, a CD or a subscription) or put ads on it? Or are there other ways of getting money for producing media?--Mr.K. (talk) 17:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Contextual ads are everywhere (newspapers, television, many websites). Donations are important. Eric Raymond proposed an interesting method [6]. MTM (talk) 17:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Raymond's SPAT idea is a good one for relatively small works like music tracks - but it would fail miserably for things like video games or movies because the time between the 'tip jar' being full and the product being delivered would typically be several years - far more than contributors would be prepared to wait. The cost of making one of these products and then not shipping it prohibits vendors from making the product and then demanding money to release it. Sure, a garage band can write a song and play a snippet - using SPAT to collect money to record and ship the finished version - but that's not going to work for the next James Bond movie. SteveBaker (talk) 15:11, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

In addition to selling it for consumers to use, you can license your media for use in other media (music in films, news on other news websites, etc.). Likewise, you can sell it to a stock photo/film/music agency. You can also charge clients for creating specific media; for taking photographs at an event, say, or if a filmmaker needs a specific kind of music you can make it for him. Recury (talk) 19:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

There is also the model the BBC uses - have the government tax the people - use the money to pay for works to be produced - give the results away for free. It seems like a horrific thing to do...but it works really well in practice. Also, there is the NPR model - give the stuff away for free and have 'pledge drives' where you hope people will donate to keep the product coming - this also works a lot better than you might expect. SteveBaker (talk) 15:11, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The BBC works pretty darn well if you look only at the product, but it's a lot harder to measure the relevant opportunity costs. —Tamfang (talk) 02:26, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

For computer games - I've often wondered whether you could use the game mechanisms to have players (unknowingly?) do useful work as they play. It's rather hard to come up with a specific cases - but we could perhaps imagine a game where as a part of the game you had to match similar photos. That would result in a service like Google's image search engine being able to do a better job. Clearly this won't work with passive media like music or video - but I suppose one could come up with a way to fund video games that way. But perhaps there are other ways...after all, we have 2.8 million articles written for an encyclopedia with not a penny spent paying people to do that. SteveBaker (talk) 15:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Google image have that 'game' (http://images.google.com/imagelabeler/). Also the film Toys (I think?) did that with children playing war-games that were really do war somewhere without them realising! Definitely seems a good idea as a way of making gaming work in a different way. ny156uk (talk) 16:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

That can't be a coincidence. Somehow - I must have seen that Google game before - I don't remember it though! The movie The Last Starfighter has a videogame which is really training kids to be starfighter pilots. The film you're thinking of is Toys (1992 film). SteveBaker (talk) 17:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Foldit is a protein folding game. Theoretically it's making gamers do useful work. Dunno how well it works. APL (talk) 16:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Naming parliaments

Looking around Wikipedia, it seems clear that Candian article name parliaments by number (for example 40th Canadian Parliament) while the UK seems to keep track of the numbers but not use them in the articles (eg MPs elected in the United Kingdom general election, 2005) and Australia doesn't seem to ever refer to its parliaments by number. Is that just a Wikipedia style thing or are they just not referred to that way in Australia? TastyCakes (talk) 17:36, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Australia certainly does number its parliaments. Here's a chronology of them. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, this will help me with my template on the 2008 Australian federal budget article. TastyCakes (talk) 22:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome. But I don't quite see the connection. Budgets are brought down every year, whereas new parliaments are elected usually only every three years. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I made the template based on the one for Canadian budgets, and it had "which parliament the budget was presented to" as one of the bits of information in it, along with the finance minister at the time. I thought it was pretty pertinent information so I kept it in the generalized template. TastyCakes (talk) 17:03, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. You've inspired me to create a new article - Chronology of Australian federal parliaments. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Coordinators

What was the first project here to have coordinators, and how many projects currently use such a system? Is there a model that project coordinators are based off of? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.254.23.75 (talk) 19:54, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

First off, try signing you posts by placing 4 ~'s at the end. Secondly, I have no idea, but someone at the help desk might. Thanks, gENIUS101 20:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

How to Introduce Parents

The occasion is a high school graduation.

Assume my name is John, my mom's name is Sunshine and my dad's name is Edgar.

I am walking towards my classmate Veronika who is with both her parents.

Once our paths intersect, how do I introduce my parents to her/them? I know Veronika (as she's my classmate), but I do not know her parents and neither to my parents. The same thing applies to her, she knows me but she doesn't know my parents.

Do I say "Hey Veronika, (turn to parents) this is Veronika, she's a classmate of mine, (turn to Veronika) these are my parents."? Should I address her parents, whom I've never met before, somehow? Do I introduce my parents to her parents? Or Should I wait for for her to introduce me to her parents and let both our parents handle the greetings amongst themselves?

Also, when I'm introducing my parents, should I use their names? "Hey Veronika, this is my Mom, Sunshine..."?

Thanks. Hustle (talk) 23:22, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

You introduce Veronika to your parents - Veronika introduces her parents to you and your parents.

(i.e. a sample conversation would be "Hi Veronika, this is my mum X and dad Y." and Veronika would say "Hi, X and Y this is my mum X and dad Y, and this is my friend my John"). ny156uk (talk) 23:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

That would be the standard way to introduce people, yes. Alternatively, I find parents are very good at introducing themselves to other parents - you just say "These are my parents" and let them give their names. --Tango (talk) 23:32, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I would find Ny156uk's approach awkward, as to me it's pretending the parents don't exist. Personally I would say "Hello Veronika - hello (while looking at the parents and nodding the head) - this is my mater and pater," and let things proceed from there. Tempshill (talk) 03:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems as if you want this Veronika to really meet your parents. I am assuming this is your girlfriend. In school, we were taught to introduce the older person first. Personally, I wouldn't introduce my parents because they really don't know Veronika, and why would they want to or need to? If they want to know Veronika or her parents, they would do it out of their own accord. You don't need to introduce anyone to anybody. It is not your obligation.68.148.149.184 (talk) 09:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Perhaps that's because I'm of another generation in another country, but I always feel terribly awkward when I meet people for the first time without anyone actually introducing us and I have to introduce myself. When the time comes, the right words will come - don't worry about seeming awkward yourself, you're the one who knows the people concerned! --TammyMoet (talk) 12:06, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Never introduce someone you haven't met. Because they might not be who you think they are. Maybe this is Veronica's birth mother and her husband. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Graduation with Divorced Parents

This is a hypothetical question and is unrelated from my previous one above. Suppose if my parents are divorced and are not on positive terms with one another. What is the protocol, in North America, for inviting them to my graduation? I should invite both of them right? If both want to come, I'm guessing that they won't be sitting next to each other?

For pictures, they most likely won't want to be in the same shot as one another right? Would it not be extremely awkward for them to be taking turns taking pictures with me, just waiting next to each other?

How do I introduce them to my friends? "Here is my mom.... and standing all the way over there is my dad."?

Hustle (talk) 23:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

It really depends on them. Some divorced couples remain good friends or, at least, cordial. Others hate each other for life. Others continue to hold a grudge but will behave themselves in public for something as important as their child's graduation. There is no way we can advise wouldn't knowing the people involved. --Tango (talk) 23:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

You certainly have to invite them both - you should probably tell each that the other has been invited, but you don't know whether they'll come or not. You might want to check with the college about seating arrangements for parents so you can be assured that they don't have to sit next to each other if they choose not to. I think you could also appeal to them both to put aside their differences long enough to make the ceremony work - you could stress that this occasion is about their relationship to you - and NOT their relationship with each other. Put like that - it's hard to imagine people not coming around and behaving at least for a couple of hours. Good luck! SteveBaker (talk) 23:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

As Tango says it is very much a situational thing, but I would hope that most parents are mature enough to be able to survive each other's company for the day of their child's graduation. If it were me - I'd invite both parents and have photos with each individually (it might feel a little awkward but both will want mementos of the day so ultimately it's better for everyone). If my parents were no longer on speaking terms i'd tell them I really want them both there, I understand they have their differences and I don't expect them to be friends or anything but rather to simply accept that the day is about 'me' and my achievement, and not about them and their baggage/history. Of course that's easily said online in an hypothetical sense, I suspect such a scenario in real-life is incredibly difficult and daunting. ny156uk (talk) 23:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The OP says "I should invite both of them right?" That would be the polite thing to do, but remember that you are under no obligation to invite any given individual. Assuming you have two tickets, you could invite your mom and stepfather, or your dad and his boyfriend, or your uncle and aunt, or your high school coach and most supportive father-figure. The special day is for you, and so the decisions are up to you, but yes, it is usually easiest to make the conventional choice. BrainyBabe (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Parents (unless they are particularly terrible ones) really deserve to go to this ceremony. While it celebrates the achievement of the graduate - it also celebrates the achievement of the parents in getting their kid through the perils of childhood and the educational system. It's also a turning point in their lives - it's the day their child is finally, truly, independent. Many parents may be feeling the pangs of the "empty nest syndrome" (trust me - this isn't a nice feeling) and marking that point with a nice memory and some good photos may help. So unless they made a complete hash of it - they really do deserve to be there. SteveBaker (talk) 14:52, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

May 9

Barnstar up for grabs

If you can name the type of rose on this Flickr picture (taken be me). I was thinking Rosa centifolia or epcot rose. I really have no idea to be honest. Jolly Ω Janner 00:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Some Hybrid Tea. But there are lots of varieties and they breed new ones every year. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 01:30, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Not worth a barnstar. Anon there blew off your barnstar in the most casual way possible. Tempshill (talk) 03:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's keep barnstars for worthy effort not as bait for quick (but not necessarily accurate) answers. 86.4.190.83 (talk) 06:56, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Leave barnstar positive reinforcement to the discretion of the awarder.68.148.149.184 (talk) 09:00, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I had not realized that the ref desk turned into a competition site. I thought s.o. was genuinely looking for an answer and might be helped by getting a possible direction to look in. If the award committee above checked my summary they'd see that I'm aware it's not a comprehensive answer. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 09:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Your answer was fine. I agree - there is no way for anyone who isn't a total rose-geek to stand a hope in hell of getting the breed right - and even total rose-geeks are going to need more than a photograph. The issue is the OP's offering of a barnstar - this isn't a generally liked practice - we don't have any rules about it - but I encourage our OP to leave out the up-front offer and restrict her/himself to awarding a BS on the talk page of anyone who you think gives an especially good answer. Over-use of barnstars cheapens them - and there is no way that a regular answer on the RD rises to that level. Save your awards for occasions where a respondant goes "above and beyond the call of duty" to find an answer for you. If someone walks 5 miles through a snowstorm to get to their local library to search the gardening section text books to find your answer...by all means, give them a barnstar! SteveBaker (talk) 14:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not "positive reinforcement" in this case. It's a bounty. A silly one too. Moreover, this section doesn't have a descriptive name. APL (talk) 14:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• I guess I'm not going to find the name of it. I'll just upload it and call it a pink rose. Thanks anyway. Jolly Ω Janner 12:26, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - I think that's your best option. SteveBaker (talk) 14:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Atheists on the internet

Why does atheism seem to be so prevalent online? I get that a lot of people are just trolling and know that attacking someone's faith will really get to them, but atheists (even discounting trolls) seem to heavily outnumber the religious online, despite being the minority in most of the world. Any ideas why? 86.8.176.85 (talk) 05:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Well they have loads of spare time because they're not wasting it praying... --TammyMoet (talk) 08:45, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

:). Also, they might be more "educated" or "enlightened" so as to use a more "intellectual" (for the lack of a better term, and please give me one, lol) medium of pastime.

Also, a lot of people are nominally religious. That means by name only.68.148.149.184 (talk) 09:08, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

If it appears to you that atheists heavily outnumber the religious online, you are almost certainly being affected by Selection bias. In other words, this perception may be caused by the ratios of those who frequent the same sites you frequent, while not being representative of the population as a whole. Still, there are reasons why atheists may be over-represented online. Those with higher incomes tend to have and use greater access to the internet.[7] There is a strong correlation between education level and income level,[8] and a correlation between atheism and education level. Finally, there is a strong correlation between wealth and a lack of religious beliefs. In other words, computer users are more likely than the general population to be wealthier, more educated and atheist. Also, the perception of online privacy (user names and aliases) allows people to express things online that they would never tell their neighbors ("I'm atheist"). In the end, though, the religious heavily outweigh the atheists online. 152.16.59.190 (talk) 09:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

from my experience the more vocal religious people stick to religion themed websites, or sites which support their views. atheists or religious people who don't push it in your face all the time are indistinguishable for the most part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.169 (talk) 11:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Our article on irreligion lists data from a recent Gallup poll, which seem to imply that atheists (in a loose terminology) are the majority in developed Christian nations. The USA appears to be the only major country where religion "is important". --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree - if our OP is from the USA, then a skewed view of the ways of the world is the likely problem here. In the UK, people who are actually practicing religion are relatively rare. In the US, it's MUCH more common. When you go online, suddenly you're yanked out of your local culture and dumped into the big wide world. Even if you don't live in the USA, if you are a religious person then it's likely that you tend to hang out with other religious people - and that too will bias your world-view. So that's likely to be the main reason. However, there is good evidence (see, for example [9], [10], [11]) that even in the USA, people with higher IQ levels - and especially people with scientific/engineering leanings have a much higher chance of being atheists. Those are the very people you meet more often online (especially here on Wikipedia).

Anyway - we have LOTS of articles for you: Religiosity and intelligence, Demographics of religion, Demographics of atheism, Irreligion. SteveBaker (talk) 14:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

In addition to what was discussed above, your definition of "Atheist" may be very broad. How do you know someone is an atheist? Are you assuming that everyone who believes in evolution is an atheist? Are you assuming that everyone who criticizes organized religion is atheist? Are you assuming that anyone who criticizes "Bible Thumpers" is an atheist? All of those assumptions are very wrong. APL (talk) 14:45, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the OP may find that people of all belief systems are very prevalent on the internet. One example. Signed, an atheist. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 12:09, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it's because the people you meet online are more representative of the world than the people you meet in your community (i.e. in real life)? There are some one billion people who are more or less officially atheist in just one country. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

If Chinese are officially atheist, then "official" doesn't mean squat. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually we have something called Chinese folk religion, but it's quite different to the judeo-christian definition of "religion" and so would appear atheist. --antilived^{T | C | G} 10:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Birthday Of Rabindranath Tagore

According to the Bengali calender, the birthday of Rabindranath Tagore is on 25th Baisakh (the bengali month), and according to the Christian calender, it's on 7th May. So why don't the two dates coincide every year? For example, this year, 7th May was two days before 25th Baisakh. Why does this discrepancy occur? Shouldn't the two dates fall on the same day, as the number of days that pass between them each year is always 365?? 117.194.224.143 (talk) 15:16, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Our article Bengali calendar explains this more carefully - but basically, the Bengali month is based around the position of the moon - so the lengths of the months varies from year to year. Also, the arrangements for taking care of leap years is a bit different from the Gregorian calendar. I recommend reading our article to get the exact details. SteveBaker (talk) 16:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The article says the names of the months are taken from those of the "lunar mansions", but the lengths of the months clearly show that they are not lunar. —Tamfang (talk) 02:40, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Roses on Fire Helmets

I am trying to find out the significance of the roses and vine design on the brim of fire helmets. There doesn't seem to be any mention of them, yet it exists on many helmets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.43.173.166 (talk) 16:45, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Do You have a photo?91.109.202.119 (talk) 16:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought I knew what the OP was talking about - but when I did an image search, it was really hard to find a fire helmet with this kind of pattern on the brim. However, I think what we're talking about is here, here, here, here and here - in all cases, it's some kind of a flower with black petals on the front of the 'crest' - not on the brim. SteveBaker (talk) 17:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The "rose" looks suspiciously like an idealised St. Florian´s cross (St. Florian being the patron saint of the fire fighters). A few web sites support this theory. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

That sounds very believable. I'm bothered by the fact that we have yet to find an image with the design on the brim of the hat. SteveBaker (talk) 22:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Confessions of a crap artist buyer

I want to get a particular artist's painting to hang in my home. I am not a multimillionaire so I will have to settle for a reproduction but I do not want an amateurish piece of garbage. There are well made prints available, in the range of $70, but I want an actual painting. I have found a number of sites online that have (or will paint) paintings by the artist I am after. These are advertised as fine quality hand painted oil reproductions done to order (though the catalogue of what they paint is set of course, since I assume they do some sort of paint by the numbers system). The prices are in the $500 range unframed. The larger the size the more expensive, with smaller painting in the $350 range and largest in the $800 range. So my question is, does anyone have any experience with such services and the quality of their work? Obviously, since I'm not posting any links (don't want this to look like spam in disguise) you can't tell me whether the particular ones I have found are okay, but I'm looking for other's general experiences, if any, with these types of services. By the way, I admit that the title of this post doesn't really quite grok, but I'm a Dick fan and couldn't resist.—70.19.69.27 (talk) 18:03, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

You're a fan of dicks? How horrific. And 'grok' means 'spit out phlegm' in British English, so I have no idea what you mean.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

"Grok," among people who've read Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land means to thoroughly understand something, or in the present context, something "groks" if it makes a lot of sense. "Dick" refers to Philip K. Dick, another science fiction writer. Also, being a fan of Dick's isn't at all horrific, depending on the context. I like to think that anyone in a sexual relationship with a man is a fan of at least one dick.... -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:52, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I doubt the OP means he/she is a fan of a fast food restaurant in Seattle. Anyway, let's stop this debacle and let the question be answered. He/she is obviously in need of help (hence, asking the question).--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Confessions of a Crap Artist by Philip K. Dick is what our OP is alluding to. SteveBaker (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It might help if you told us who the artist in question is. An inexpensive copy of a Mondrian painting, for instance, is likely to be more satisfactory than one of a Botticelli painting. Deor (talk) 21:33, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The artist in question is the superlative Maxfield Parrish. I must admit that including cryptic (to some) literary allusions that can be misinterpreted as the mildly perverse is a great deal of fun and is always intentional. For a few examples (of Parrish paintings; not of intentional-cryptic-literary-allusions-that-can-be-misinterpreted-as-the-mildly-perverse), see here, here, here and here.—70.19.69.27 (talk) 00:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

One solution might be to see if there is a university or graphic arts college nearby and see if one of their students might be able to do it for you. One way a copy can be made is by taking a slide photograph of the original, projecting that onto a canvas and then copying the image. I guess these days they might even do it with a digital image and projector. If you buy it online, make sure to read the seller reviews and check their return policy. If it says you can't return it, stay away. If it's from abroad check with customs. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 06:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

There are artist factories here in China where scores of pretty good artists punch the clock each morning and start in on another Mona Lisa. Perhaps a search for reproductions and China might yield some results. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I would advise against getting the "oil reproduction" you mentioned. It is just a fake, probably not very good and shoddily done, and that kind of thing is both inauthentic and in very bad taste. It would be worse than a print. MPs pictures were, I think, made to appear in magazines. I would suggest seeing if you can get hold of one of these original magazines and framing the relevant page. Otherwise find a detailed image of one of his paintings on the internet, print it out in high quality, and frame that. At least have it on your wall for a couple of months to see how you feel about it. You might want to ask somewhere that does giclee or other large high-quality prints to print the image for you. 78.151.156.193 (talk) 23:33, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

NZ Landscapes

Hi,

I've often heard people claim that New Zealand has an example of every kind of landscape possible (eg. rainforest, desert, tundra, etc). This is pretty obviously bollocks as it doesn't take long to come up with counter examples (I'd be interested in yours too, btw). But my real question is, where did this rumour start, or why or when or any information you may have on this topic.

Thanks for your help, diligent ref deskers.

Aaadddaaammm (talk) 18:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• For such a small island, if NZ actually has all of that it's kinda interesting. But yeah, many coastal mainlands will have a wide range of landforms. Where exactly does NZ have "tundra"? If you mean permafrost mountain, I'm not sure that qualifies as tundra. In fact... what landform, save a continent, has all of those features? Shadowjams (talk) 10:25, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, I thought it was kinda interesting too. A quick search says that NZ has tundra here and subantarctic islands of NZ also List of tundra ecoregions. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 13:39, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure it's not the first reference, but I first heard it from someone associated with producing the Lord of the Rings movies, perhaps Peter Jackson, talking about why they chose to film in NZ. Steewi (talk) 01:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Lets see what we can do.

• Desert: For example, Rangipo Desert, which has varied terrain, seen more clearly here and [12] [13] (used for much LoTR filming), eg. gate to Mordor)
• Tundra: as noted above. See also Antipodes Subantarctic Islands tundra and the Montane grasslands and shrublands found in Central Otago and the Southern Alps.
• Rainforest: see NZ rainforests, and various images.
• Cultivate pine forest: [14]
• Snow-clad mountains: see Southern Alps
• Volcanic: see Volcanism in New Zealand
• Geothermal: see particularly Rotorua and these images
• Pastoral: throughout, but see images
• Lakelands: http://www.southernlakes.org/
• Great lake; eg. Lake Taupo
• Coast: soft and pretty: [15] wild and windy: [16]
• also: (examples) glaciers; fiords; wetlands, surf; skifields; urban

What else do you want? (By the way, I don't think Peter Jackson was claiming NZ was unique in having great variation, but just that it was all within easy reach of his studio, which is desirable for a film maker.) Also, Shadowjams, NZ is not really "such a small island". It's a group of islands, totalling 268,680 km², which makes it larger than the United Kingdom, and 155 other countries. So that it should have varied terrain is not all that remarkable. Gwinva (talk) 22:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention beautiful, quiet and a source of great wine.DOR (HK) (talk) 03:38, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Bug killer that plugs into the wall

There is a product that claims if you plug it into the wall, it will either kill bugs or prevent them from coming inside. How does this work and what is this product called? I believe I saw an infomercial for this. --67.85.117.190 (talk) 19:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

You mean this?--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Funny, that is a UK site, but the plug is clearly from Spain.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

This is a normal Europlug used (between Lisbon and Vladivostok, but excluding the UK) for all appliances which do not need to be grounded. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The product emits some kind of ultrasonic whine that is imperceptible to humans and allegedly affects bugs. No idea whether it works or not. Tempshill (talk) 22:06, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

There are two varieties. The version Temshill describes [17] and a version that heats a pad that is soaked in a substance that then is vaporized e.g. [18]. This can be either an Essential oil like Cedar Citronella Litsea cubeba or Lavender or a bug repellent like Pyrethrum Permethrin, DEET. Or even a pesticide. For outdoors there's also a unit that electrocutes bugs [19]. (Don't use it indoors it produces ozone.) As far as effectiveness is concerned I have no idea to what percentage any of them are wishful thinking and placebo and to what degree there actually is an effect. (OR I have a sonic repeller plugged in an outlet and we still occasionally get bugs in that room. Some of them just don't seem to mind the buzz.) 71.236.24.129 (talk) 05:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

UK Smoking Ban

In the UK we have this 'no smoking in the workplace' bollocks. Would that include people who test cigarettes (like wine-tasters or chocolate tasters)?--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Uh, no. Library Seraph (talk) 21:40, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

There is a specific exemption for trying out pipe tobacco or cigars in a specialist shop before making a purchase. I don't remember anything else likely to apply to a professional tobacco taster 93.97.184.230 (talk) 21:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

They could go outside if there isn't an exception made for them. --Tango (talk) 21:51, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I personally quite enjoy the liberty of not having cancer forced on me every time I go to a public place. Following on from the OP's question, how does this apply to actors? Are they exempt? I've seen them smoking on TV. Vimescarrot (talk) 04:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I personally quite enjoy the liberty of not having people hassle me (personally, without reason) when I smoke outdoors in the United States. Do you, personally, have any information about the regulations governing smoking in the United Kingdom? Deor (talk) 05:15, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Actors use fake 'puff' cigarettes. See [20] for an example. Exxolon (talk) 05:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The UK smoking ban also has an exemption for actors where "the artistic integrity of a performance makes it appropriate" to smoke. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 09:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

• Note - Let's keep the passive aggressive politics out of this. Shadowjams (talk) 10:20, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Er, no. The English (and Welsh) smoking ban has an exception for theatrical performances. The Scottish smoking ban does not. http://www.whatsonstage.com/index.php?pg=207&story=E8821183383971 --ColinFine (talk) 15:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I doubt there are any cigarette manufacturers left in the UK - that being the case, the question of how they'd "test" the product may be entirely academic. SteveBaker (talk) 16:27, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

According to this map Imperial Tobacco have at least one cigarette factory (probably in Nottingham) and one "other tobacco product factory" in the UK. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:44, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Benson & Hedges springs to mind. According to the article they are still manufactured in the UK, even though they have become a subsid of Japan Tobacco.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 16:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not just manufacturers that need to test things, though. Buyers do as well. Tobacco products are certainly sold in the UK, those sellers must decide what to sell somehow. --Tango (talk) 10:07, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

If by "buyers" you mean the ultimate customers, I'd have thought that they'd have to actually buy a minimal quantity of the product in question and try it (at home). If you mean the Buyers employed by product stockists to choose new lines of product for retail outlets, then they are likely to make a decision based mostly on the marketing package offered by the manufacturers. Similarly, when I was the Paperback Buyer for a Bookshop, I didn't have to read all or any of the hundreds of new titles published every month in order to decide which to stock. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 04:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I meant the latter. I know buyers for things like chocolate (for places like Harrods, perhaps not for places that sell cheap chocolate!) spend a lot of time tasting them. Similarly for expensive coffee, tea, etc. I expect good quality pipe tobacco is tested before being stocked, a pack of 10 Marlboro probably isn't, though. --Tango (talk) 14:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

And from today's Daily Star we have a story about a pub that has declared itself a "Smoking Research Centre" to allow people to smoke indoors. Nanonic (talk) 11:10, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Damn! I was just about to post the BBC version myself, which actually partly answers my question, because it says there is the 'The Smoke-Free (Exemptions and Vehicles) Regulations 2007', especially for research into smoking.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 07:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

1997 honda accord 4 cyl crankshaft pulley removal

I cannot get the bolt out of the crankshaft pulley. manual just says "remove bolt" was told it was left handed bolt. on line searches have conflicted. some say left, some right. have broken 1/2" extensions, impact wrenches, ratchet adapters,and bent breaker bars. I have tried heating bolt, whacking with hammer. NO JOY. it would surely help to know for sure witch way the bolt comes out. thank heaven I have not stripped the crank threads yet. really need some help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.0.131.213 (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know which way you should turn the bolt to undo it, but if you look at which way the crankshaft turns it won't undo that bolt. If you are still unsure, why not ask at your local car repairers. One thing to note however, anything bolted to the crankshaft is tightened to as very high torque (when I worked on my father's car many years ago, it was the tightest bolt on the entire car), so are you sure you are applying enough torque to undo it? Astronaut (talk) 02:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Penetrating oil is probably the answer here. Go to your local car parts store and you'll find a dozen different brands - soak everything in the goop - marinate the thing overnight - try several different brands - one may do what you need. What worries me is that if you have broken tools while trying to extract it while not understanding which direction to turn it, you may well have been tightening it beyond the torque limits it's designed for. I would go to a Honda dealership - and ask to buy one of those bolts - when the guy brings it to you, you can look at the thread direction and say "Nah - I changed my mind"! When all else fails - you may just have to drill it out. SteveBaker (talk) 16:24, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

May 10

distinguished conduct medal

Whilst browsing the above database I was delighted to see listings of those who had been awarded the medal I could not find a mention of my granfather Pvte Francis Leslie Croft reg No 3546 53rd battalion who was awarded the DCM at Fromelles 19-20 July 1916 inWW1 . Is it possible to have his name included I have documentation to show his award. thank you sincerely K.Boxsell JP —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.72.219.217 (talk) 00:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Which database? This is the reference desk for Wikipedia, and Wikipedia does not run a database of people awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal. We do however have articles about a number of people who have been awarded that medal - they are listed in Category:Recipients of the Distinguished Conduct Medal.

If you wish to have an artcle written about your grandfather, you can request one is created at Wikipedia:Requested Articles and wait for someone else to create it, or you could sign up and write it yourself (but please note you will have to make a few other edits and wait 4 days before your account becomes autoconfirmed when you can then create a new article - I suggest you spend that time creating a draft article in your user pages and familiarising yourself with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines). Astronaut (talk) 02:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I was able to find one database that lists him and his DCM, including a brief summary of the reason for the award. I also found a copy of his enlistment papers. There are several DCM databases online that do not mention him. You may want to e-mail the owners of whichever site you were viewing and ask them to add him to their database. If you were talking about Wikipedia, Astronaut has given good advice above. 152.16.16.75 (talk) 10:27, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The question will be one of notability. Wikipedia has some fairly strict rules about who we will and will not keep biographies on. Earning the DCM is not (by itself) enough to warrant an article. It seems harsh - but you have to look into the person's life and find other reasons why Wikipedia needs an article about them. Furthermore, people here get very nervous when a close friend or relation of a person writes about them because there is far too much risk of bias. If you did want to write it yourself, you'd have to be careful to state only facts that can be independently verified from trusted sources (books, magazines, etc). When you look at what this entails, I suspect you'll find that writing an article about this person is not feasible. However, if we had an article listing DCM recipients - adding his name to that article would be entirely appropriate...especially since we now have proper evidence in terms of the two links above. SteveBaker (talk) 16:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

online films

can anyone tell me where i can watch films online?? (both old and new films) please tell me the most creditable and reliable site... thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.134.118 (talk) 08:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

You can go to www.veoh.com. They have a large collection of movies that can be watched online, and can even be saved on the hard disk. But, first, you've got to download their software, VeohTV. 117.194.227.220 (talk) 08:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Internet Archive has hundreds of Moving Images that can be watched and saved for free. See [21]. --Omidinist (talk) 10:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure many video sites have them (as aforementioned), however it's illegal, so we can't really answer this question. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 12:06, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The Internet Archive mentioned above carries things (such as Moving Images) in the public domain. These things are not illegal to watch or save. 80.41.104.79 (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Hulu (http:www.hulu.com) currently has about 110 movies available that you can watch for free. There are adverts - but they are spaced more widely and are much briefer than broadcast/cable/satellite TV. SteveBaker (talk) 16:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Another option would be to download Vuze. Then (using this software) do a search on the film you are looking for and download it. But remember, all of this is, in fact, illegal and some people have actually been prosecuted for it, with fines of millions of dollars, which they can't pay so they end up in jail.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 16:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Like who? It's generally people who upload or host sites that are prosecuted although I have heard of people in the UK being sent letters telling them that they will be prosecuted if they don't stop downloading. Smartse (talk) 19:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

This link from ten months ago says five people were prosecuted in the UK for downloading music. Sorry, all I could find. And I am in the UK.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:16, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Vuze is a Bittorrent client. There is no clear boundry between people who upload and people who download. APL (talk) 16:39, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. It's basically P2P, so if you are downloading, you are still seeding, which means you are sharing it while the software is open. I remember a Japanese guy who designed this type of software being prosecuted and fined millions for it.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:05, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Hence the recommendation to check out Hulu - which is 100% legal. SteveBaker (talk) 19:07, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

You have to download them first but BitTorrent (protocol) might be useful (to download creative commons films of course....) Smartse (talk) 19:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

You can also try http://www.youtube.com/movies and http://www.dailymotion.com. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Netflix, the DVD rental service now offers a "Watch now" service for streaming videos. It's a bit pricey. APL (talk) 16:39, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

ovgiude.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by JelloTube (talk • contribs) 09:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Blocking Gmail Contacts

Is it possible to block some of my Gmail contacts from sending me emails. As in, suppose they try to send me something, the mail will automatically bounce back, and they'll receive a message saying that their mail wasn't delivered. Is there an option that can turn this feature on? 117.194.227.220 (talk) 08:55, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

First go to settings and then labs. enable "canned responses". Now compose a message such as "this is a automated response. Please don't email me anymore". Save the message as a new canned response - you need to give it a name such as "don't email me" (the menus will appear next to "Attach a file" and "Add event invitation"). Now create a filter (the link is next to the search bar on top). Set the filter to archive the message (or delete it, if you are sure you will never want to see it), and set it to send the canned response you just created. If you want to add more email address to the filter simply change the filter by adding another email address that will trigger the filter. Use OR (in all caps) to separate the email addresses. Jon513 (talk) 14:01, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Please don't crosspost questions to different categories of the Reference Desk. Tempshill (talk) 16:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

archaeology

i'm an indian and i aspire to become an archaeologist. does anyone know where should i go after i pass my twelfth grade??? i don't think there's any college or institute that teaches archaeology. the problem in india is that no one wants to study history or humanities. most of them go for commerce or for science. those who go for science choose to study at IIT (that's the top engineering college in india which can virtually gaurantee a job. india is full of opportunities for business and engineering, but not for humanities.). so, you see, i've got a big problem. plz help me...

(i've found one Deccan college in Pune, is that where i should go??. again, there's this problem with this college, it's govt. controlled, and that means instable facilities...)

thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.134.118 (talk) 12:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

This site [22] lists 27 universities in India which offer courses in archeology. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:45, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Total sales and Revenue

Are total sales and revenue the same? 117.0.22.127 (talk) 14:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Not if you have revenue from other sources. SteveBaker (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

But yes, I think in the way you mean it, they are the same. Quite often "Total Sales" is used to mean total revenue.NByz (talk) 05:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Total sales usually refers to volume. Revenue to income. So volume can rise (probably will) as revenue falls.90.4.247.13 (talk) 16:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC)DT

That's not true. Sales in a financial/business context almost always refers to dollar (pound, euro...) amounts. Volume is called "volume". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Tis true too! "Almost always" is no different to 'Usually" in usage, so whilst often "sales" refers to takings this is not good practice. "Sales Revenue" is the correct term. Or "Sales Volume" if an item count is indicated. But for convenience, revenue is normally taken as income, and sales as outgoings of stock, services or whatever.86.197.173.240 (talk) 14:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)DT

I've never seen a financial statement say "total sales for the year was 20,000 wideges". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

And I've never seen a sales target by volume refer to sales revenue. So let's not be silly, and let's compare like with like.90.0.128.220 (talk) 11:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)DT

That's a sales target by volume. "Total sales" almost always means monetary revenue terms. I use "almost always" because clearly there are people like yourself who believe otherwise. That, however, is not the general usage. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's say I've got a shop where I sell widgets. I also rent out a counter in the shop to a fellow who sells widget holders. My total sales REVENUE is the income from selling widgets, but my TOTAL revenue is the income from widget sales plus the income from renting the counter. My sales VOLUME is the number of widgets I sell. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Worldwide child protection laws

In most countries, there are laws which require adults (18 or over), working in an environment which those under 18 , to be security checked in some way. However in most countries, the last year of high school/secondary school contains 18 year old adults who are not checked. Is this a flaw in the law? 86.153.125.210 (talk) 16:01, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Those 18 year olds are not working at the school - they aren't employees. Hence no problem. SteveBaker (talk) 16:04, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting question, but if you think about it, if they are still in school at that age, it means they haven't gone to jail, so they don't need to be checked. Anyway, as Steve says, it's only required if people are actually working with children, not actually just being in an environment with children, otherwise any adult who has a baby would need to be checked, and that doesn't happen.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 16:39, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Just because they are in school doesn't mean they haven't spent time in jail. They key thing is that they are not responsible for the other children in the school. Teachers need to be vetted because they have a role "in loco parentis". --Tango (talk) 20:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Woodlouse / Pill bug / Cheesybob

I saw a woodlouse the other day that I didn't recognise. It was fairly large and very dark grey. It was extremely smooth and shiny and looked 'new' if that makes sense. Most strikingly, it had what looked like a thin yellow edging on its sections. The closest image I can find would be something like this. I live in the south of England. Does anyone from another part of the world recognise this description as it may have come in from another country?Popcorn II (talk) 18:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Well there are many different species of woodlice in the UK: List of woodlice of the British Isles. From your description it might be this species (Armadillidium vulgare). The list also mentions that a few have become naturalised in greenhouses and if they were going to survive anywhere outside in the UK it would be in the South. It's hard to say however without a photo. Smartse (talk) 19:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that it could have been a Pill millipede? Aylad ['ɑɪlæd] 19:35, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes I think that's it. I've never seen those before, Thanks.Popcorn II (talk) 08:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Mosquitoes in the UK

What's happening with the mosquitoes? We never had them in the North of England 15 years ago. I saw my first one when I was 12 in Greece 24 years ago. Since coming back to the UK two years ago (from Japan where there were obviously loads there too, but only in summer), we've been getting huge ones, even in winter. What's going on? Why have they moved up here, why are they so huge, and why do we get them all year round?--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your observation. The first time I saw mosquitoes in Leeds was about 8 years ago, just one or two then but they are now more frequent. I put it down to climate change, we must have always been on the edge of the range because I remember being bitten by hundreds of mosquitoes in Norfolk up to 30 years ago and that is only 100 miles further south. -- Q Chris (talk) 20:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the huge part. Of course I do not know precisely what kinds you have or what you define as huge, but some species of mosquitoes does not bite humans at all. According to the article mosquito "Mosquitoes of the genus Toxorhynchites never drink blood. This genus includes the largest extant mosquitoes, the larvae of which prey on the larvae of other mosquitoes.", so the size of them may just be a good thing after all. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That might actually be the ones. I get plenty of them in my flat because I live near a pond and a river, but I've never actually been bitten by any of them, whereas I was plagued by the smaller ones in Japan. Thanks.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I've never understood the lack of them in the north of England and in Scotland, there's plenty in Norway and Sweden, along with the midges and the clegs. Mikenorton (talk) 16:52, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

W.R.T. seeing them year round, members of the Culex genus typically overwinter in animal burrows or your basement and venture out on warmer days. Typically they are micropredators of birds esp. those on the nest. Hope thay was helpful. 67.193.179.241 (talk) 12:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC) Rana sylvatica

May 11

Information About My Late Grandfather

I'm trying to get information about my late grandfather (my mother's father) and any information about, specifically, what he did in WW2. He seems to have been in the Royal Artillery and carried out an heroic action (under heavy fire) to get more ammunition for the guns in the position he was trying to hold in Burma during relentless attacks by the Japanese forces. I have information on that attack and even that he brought back more ammunition than was needed, but nothing more about him, except that he was a Regimental Sergeant Major, and his name was Steven Wells. I have lots of other information about his civilian life, of course, supplied by my mother, but we are trying to find out about what he did in the war, as he never talked about it when he got back, traumatised as he was. We are compiling a family history. Can anyone help?--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Hiya I sympathise with your plight, my late father was in Burma during the war and because of what he suffered there, he suffered PTSD for the rest of his life. He wouldn't tell us what happened, except that he saw his best friend crucified and used for bayonet practice by the enemy. I understand that, should I wish to find out more, I can go to the Burma Star Association and they will help. Try googling them and make contact. Hope this helps.--TammyMoet (talk) 10:42, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

distinguished conduct medal

When reading the above data base I was surprsied to see the names of recipients of the medal. I could not find mention of my grandfather pvte Francis Leslie Croft reg no 3546 53rd battalion He was awarded the medal at Fromelles in the action 19/20th July 1916. Would it be possible to have his name included to the list. I have a copy of the original citation as proof —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ckikkaxx (talk • contribs) 02:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you should get together with your cousin, 10 questions up, and decide who is going to be responsible for posting this question. Richard Avery (talk) 08:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

confusion about oxidation

please told me how loss of electron. loss of hydrogen and gain of oxygen for oxidation is same. i am confused because electron have negative charge and hydrogen having positive . then how loss of both causes oxidation —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rakeshknit (talk • contribs) 10:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

It is a bit like double entry bookkeeping, the electron comes from one part and put in another and overall they aren't created or destroyed. I think you're using the word oxidation like a complete money transaction whereas it is better to think of it as referring to only one part of an oxidation reduction reaction. This whole question would be better on the Science reference desk rather than the Miscellaneous desk. Dmcq (talk) 11:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Number lines in other cultures

In the western world, we lay out the number line in a left to right fashion. That is, lower value numbers are on the left, and higher value numbers are on the right. I'm wondering what the number line looks like in other cultures, especially those which don't share our left-to-right top-to-bottom reading style. (I'm curious because a recent paper in Science Magazine has associated subtraction with the same parts of the brain which are involved with leftward eye movement. [23] I'm wondering if the "lower numbers=left" connection holds across cultures.) -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 14:01, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Arabic numbers go left-to-right, even though the rest of the language goes right-to-left. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Probably because they're really Hindu numerals, adopted by the Arabs from from a culture that predominently wrote left to right, and adopted by "the West" from them. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 04:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

? The numerals goes right to left in "the West". Is that not because the numerals go right to left in the Arabic world? I think you're confusing numerals with the number line. 80.41.9.159 (talk) 05:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Wiki rather surprisingly doesn't seem to have an article on the mental number line, I'm sure it would make a good article, and I can't find anything definitive on your question on the web with a quick look, but I believe I've read that the number line direction does seem to be universal going from left to right quite independently of writing direction. Dmcq (talk) 16:42, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I just read a bit on google books from How the Brain Learns Mathematics By David A. Sousa where it says people with right to left reading also have a number line thsat goes from right to left. I'm a bit surprised. There is also a weiki article Number form where synasthethes can have lines that go all around the place. Dmcq (talk) 17:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Lower value numbers are on the right. Consider 'one thousand two hundred and thirty-four', written out also as 1234, the '4' is considerably lower than the 'one thousand'. In spoken and written language (in English), the number gets progressively more detailed (and therefore smaller) as it continues. Not sure what the OP is trying to say, here, sorry.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Kage, see Number line. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks. Makes sense now. So it's basically just a diagrammatical representation of numbers, and nothing to do with writing or spoken language, in the sense that I assumed. Sorry.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 00:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It's common for Papuan languages to count based on numbers that move from the hand up the arm and across the body or head. I suspect (although I don't know if anyone's studied it) that their number line would follow a similar pattern. Steewi (talk) 00:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Is that from the right hand up the arm, or from the left hand up the arm? (Or does it matter?) -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 00:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I think a lot of people underestimate the extent to which this is learnt/taught. Many children in the UK spend considerable time trying to learn how to use a numberline, making sure it goes left-to-right, etc. It is taught because without it these children have great difficulty mentally manipulating numbers. Some people pick it up very easily, others have to devote more time and energy, but it is taught. 80.41.9.159 (talk) 05:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It was never taught to me (I'm from the UK). That's why I didn't have a clue what the OP was talking about.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 07:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

If it isn't too personal, how many decades old are you? As in, are you in your teens, your twenties, thirties, etc? I'm intrigued that you never had to use a numberline at school. Not even when doing probability? 80.41.9.159 (talk) 15:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm 36 years old.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm UK raised as well, and I didn't come across number lines until I left school. If I'd been taught about a number line, I'd have clicked with maths at school, rather than afterwards! --TammyMoet (talk) 19:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I used to think this sort of understanding is innate, but now I very much doubt that. I had a similar enlightenment when I realised that a lot of people, when sitting at a piano keyboard, cannot get even close to a simple one finger melody. They do not automatically associate a higher pitch sound with a key that's more to the right and a lower pitch sound with a key that's more to the left. Some people never need to be taught this, others definitely do. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't even understand why it's necessary to spend a considerable amount of time learning this diagram. I can't see the point. It's obvious to me that 2 is higher than 1, and in turn 3 is higher than 2, and of course it would go the other way with minus numbers. It was always obvious to me. Pointless. We send our kids to school for this?--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The kids who don't need to be taught it explicitly will usually move on to something else. The ones who spend considerable time learning it do not find it obvious that 2 is higher than 1 and that the minus numbers go the other way. It was always obvious to you, it was always obvious to me, but I just spent an hour with 13 year olds who cannot consistently place 3 numbers on the line in the right order. They find addition and subtraction much harder than you do, because they do not have a solid mental number line to manipulate. They often resort to drawing a set number of something, and then add more things or take some things away. Obviously this makes negative numbers quite difficult, and is unwieldy for large numbers. 80.41.120.247 (talk) 19:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Avacado Tree Pruning

We live in central Florida on the Gulf Coast and have an avacado tree that is 25' tall and produces fruit each year. We would like to know the best time to prune the tree. We would also like to know how far back we can cut since it is too tall to manage.97.106.127.62 (talk) 14:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Spring seems to be the time when to do it. This site suggests to keep it to 15 ft. Note that most trees that are pruned for ease of picking fruit don't look very ornamental. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 04:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it spelt 'avocado'?--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

What are the benefits of a tree structure?

The Transhumanist    20:25, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

In computer science, a tree generally yields operations with logarithmic time complexity (see logarithmic growth, complexity class and algorithm). For instance, a tree is a good way of storing a sorted collection of elements, where new elements will be periodically inserted or deleted. Trees are also good representations for certain types of ontology or other hierarchical structures (for instance, decision tree classifiers); in this case, the tree structure is actually present in the data. 128.148.38.26 (talk) 21:22, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Please don't crosspost questions to multiple branches of the Reference Desk. Tempshill (talk) 22:49, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

May 12

Hair Color

Do people with blonde or red hair have blonde or red colored pubic and arm pit hairs, respectively? Acceptable (talk) 01:57, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

In my experience with ladies, I can say yes for some. However, the colour of pubic hair and arm-pit hair is actually the same as their eyebrow colour (for people who have dyed their head hair).--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

No one's body hair is exactly the same color as their head hair, but yes, it'll be sort of a faded version. --Masamage ♫ 03:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

You may find this previous discussion interesting. manya (talk) 04:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Speaking as one myself, no and no. They both started as black but have now faded to a sort of light reddy brown. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I dye my hair red, and I dye ALL of it, not just on my head —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.169 (talk) 13:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

In my case (medium blond) and my ex-wife's (red), yes. Contrary to KT, I reckon my pubic hair most resembles those parts of my scalp-hair that are least exposed to sun; my facial hair is generally brighter. —Tamfang (talk) 03:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Any skateboard or rollerblade fanatics here?

I'm refurbishing and upgrading my homemade CNC milling machine - the business end of the machine rolls along on rollerskate bearings (which are super-cheap, built to bear heavy loads and pretty free-running - and designed not to let dust and dirt into the moving parts). The trouble is that the bearings tend to wear out faster than I'd like.

The question is - what are the hottest, trendiest (but not too expensive) skate bearings. I see lots of places selling them - but no way to figure out which ones are good. I bet there is some skateboard-geek magazine out there that has all of the info I need. (I need about 40 of these bearings - so price matters!)

SteveBaker (talk) 02:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

You have a homemade CNC milling machine! I'm impressed. But what the hell do you use it for? Astronaut (talk) 12:38, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, right now, I want to use it for making myself a 3D printer (a RepRap)...but I suppose you're just going to ask what I'm going to use that for...and the answer to THAT is a much more interesting question! SteveBaker (talk) 20:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Let me guess... you'll use the 3D printer to crank out milling machines?  :-) -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I was going to use it to make a drill-stand so that I could make better parts for my next milling machine...but you have the right idea! Well - actually, the RepRap manifesto is to have these machines be able to make copies of themselves so that (like OpenSourced software) we can have designs for small physical objects freely available on the Internet that people can download and "print" - but also improve and update. The RepRap machine becomes the Linux of the physical world. The plastic and metal used by the RepRap system to build stuff can be recycled using another machine (which you could theoretically make using your RepRap machine) so that we don't fill up landfills with discarded plastic and metal objects anymore. You incentive to recycle is much stronger when you get to reap the benefits directly by having more plastic with which to make new objects that you find you need. There are related projects to print electronic circuitry using modified inkjet printers and to make larger structures from concrete. SteveBaker (talk) 19:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

You're probably already aware, but there is the ABEC scale for skate bearings. It doesn't allow you to compare bearings of different brands very accurately but it does give you a rough idea of the quality. I'm not sure which brands of bearings the shops near you might carry, but here in skate shops like West 49 they tend to push Bones Reds or Destructo Sendai's as a cheap option for bearings-I've used both and been satisfied. The things to be wary of are "blank" bearings (which are most likely no-name ABEC 1s) and expensive ABEC 7s or 9s-they may be more precisely made and roll faster but they usually are no more durable than the cheaper options. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.46.102 (talk) 14:38, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't already aware...that is a very useful answer! My criteria are kinda mixed at this point - ideally, I need smooth, fast, cheap AND durable - but I think it's clear that I can have any two or perhaps any three of those things! I just wanted a way to compare the options. Thanks! SteveBaker (talk) 20:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Have you consider using other types of bearings like Fluid_bearings? --Mr.K. (talk) 17:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It's incredibly difficult to make things like that in your garage at home! (Especially when your home-made CNC machine has stopped working!) But in any case, I need three orthogonal axes - which is hard to do with fluid bearings! Four skate bearings (which are very cheap) are bolted to a piece of L-section aluminium channel so that they face inwards towards each other at 90 degrees. They will roll beautifully on a longer length of L-section aluminium. The L-shape keeps things nicely aligned so there isn't any significant sideways or vertical motion. Three pairs of those 'tracks' at right angles provide the X, Y and Z axis motion - and you drive it with stepper motors that are rotating long bits of threaded rod. A simple nut will thread onto that rod and can be attached to whatever needs to be driven along it's length. With care and software that's aware of backlash issues, this gives you sub-millimeter precision over about a 1.5m x 1.5m x 0.3m working volume. You can cut, drill or carve wood, plastic, foam or (with extreme care) thin metal, under control of your PC - so if you can draw it - you can pretty much make it. The cutting head is an off-the-shelf router with an old vacuum cleaner sucking the shavings out of the way. The baseboard is made of perforated hardboard with a second ancient vacuum cleaner making it like a 'reverse air-hockey table' that sucks the workpiece down so you don't have to clamp it (well, in theory at least!). The stepper motors are driven by an Arduino computer with high level commands ("move the cutting head from (x1,y1,z1) to (x2,y2,z2) in time 't' and tell me when you get there"). You send the commands to the Arduino using a USB port from a regular PC (I'm thinking about going 'wireless' this time around and using a WiFi hookup). Easy! The thing cost me about $200 and three or four weekends to build originally - but several parts are badly worn now and it needs a bit of an upgrade. If you want to build one, a distant descendant of my old machine is beautifully described here [24]. SteveBaker (talk) 20:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow -- Wikipedia has an article on it: Homemade CNC milling machine. Bus stop (talk) 18:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Kinda. SteveBaker (talk) 20:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Stupid toilet

Okay, so a few months ago I moved into an awesome new apartment with exactly one flaw: the toilet clogs at every single opportunity. It clogs if you so much as look at it wrong. It's making me crazy. Is there anything I can do to it to give it a more powerful flush, or am I doomed? (And no, I don't have this problem anywhere else. :P) --Masamage ♫ 03:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

If it's clogging it will be nothing to do with the flush. If you give it a more powerful flush, it'll just overflow and flood your bathroom (had that problem a few years ago). You'd be best either buying a plunger and unclogging the system or getting a plumber out to look at the system.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 03:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Contacting a plumber looks like your best bet. [25] If you are renting; another way might be to contact management and report the problem. (Threaten to reduce the rent if they shuffle their feet or keep sending their janitor around for inefficient countermeasures.) 71.236.24.129 (talk) 04:27, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that the toilet outflow is permanently partially blocked so it gets fully blocked very easily. The main ways to unblock a toilet are with a plunger[26] (although this will not clear a partial blockage), with a plumber's snake or auger which you push down the toilet (alternatively you may be able to use your hand), or with a chemical that will dissolve blockages[27] (this is easy to do but can be less effective). There may also be a large physical object stuck down the toilet, in which case you will probably have to dismantle the toilet or some piping. If you google, you'll find a lot more advice on all these methods[28]. But if you rent, definitely try your manager or landlord. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 11:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

When my toilet clogs, I find emptying a large bucket of water into the pan acts like some kind of "mega-flush" and clears the blockage. However, if it is always clogging, you might need some kind of chemical or mechanical cleaning or maybe the services of a plumber. Astronaut (talk) 12:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Haha! Yeah, that's what I do too. Sometimes I've had to stand on the end of my bath and hold the bucket high above my head before tipping, in order to clear the blockage. That makes a very satisfying 'whomp!' noise when it goes through... xD --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 13:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Be advised that if you use chemicals to try to clear the blockage, and then try to bring in a plumber, the plumber may refuse to do the work for some time, on safety grounds. Bucket and auger are both good low-cost and easy to DIY ideas. As is preventing people from flushing baby wipes/tampons/excessive amounts of toilet paper. In some countries I've visited in the past, I've even seen signs recommending one doesn't flush toilet paper at all. --Dweller (talk) 13:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - vicious chemicals are the method of last resort. I recommend patiently waiting until the water level in the toilet gradually trickles down to a low level - then dump (and I mean "dump"...as fast as possible) a complete bucket of hot water with loads of washing up liquid in it. You may need to repeat this a couple of times - but I've yet to find a block that it wouldn't cure. SteveBaker (talk) 01:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

There are known 'best practices' on the diameter of various kinds of pipes, but some houses have pipes that are too narrow, out of ignorance or, possibly, cost savings. The problem of narrower pipes can be aggravated by corrosion over the years. You're probably not inclined to get into the crawl space and identify and measure a bunch of pipes, though. Tempshill (talk) 14:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

If that's the problem, the solution may be expensive. If you can, IMHO you're better off replacing the pipework than getting a macerator, as, in my experience, the latter solution tends to be extremely sensitive and will break if you so much as think about flushing something hard, like a paper clip. --Dweller (talk) 14:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Couple of pointers: If OP is in the US his "new" apartment may be equipped with not quite so new "low flow" toilets. The first models are notorious for clogging. Chemicals tend to be a bad idea. They are o.k for the occasional clog if a wad of paper or s.th. got stuck. In the long run and if you have lime build up on your pipes they will eat a hole in your pipes! (For minor clogs the above methods or some baking soda followed by a little vinegar is safer than the harsh drain cleaner stuff.) If the pipes are older you also have to watch DIY auger action. Check your contracts and insurance policies before you do that. If the pipe breaks you might end up with a huge bill for repairs, both to your and any neighboring apartments. Calling a plumber may look more expensive, but is usually cheaper in the long run. Particularly since OP says the problem is persistent. Contacting your apartment association or management company will a) cover your butt if something does break/flood and they try to get you to pay. b) enable all owners/renters to take joint action. c) set you in a better position in case legal action becomes necessary. (No legal advice. Just some OR life lessons from dealing with lots of plumbing issues.) 71.236.24.129 (talk) 23:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I am British and had never had a problem with flushing a toilet until we bought Italian. Oh yes, it looks good, the design - wow, the ergonomics, the style, the shape, bellissimo. But does it flush anything bulkier than a single sheet of tissue? NONONONONO. The best flushers I have ever used have been American. No Rim Flush - just a jet of water aimed at the pool at the bottom of the pan and WHOOOSH - it's gone. God Bless America. Italy - mama Mia. 92.23.221.191 (talk) 23:37, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

At a school I worked at in Japan, we had the normal western style toilet, and because I didn't want my students to hear me pooping, the first time I used it I flushed it while I was sitting there. Unfortunately, the water filled up to the brim and I ended up with wet balls. Never did that again.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 01:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow, lots of good stuff here. Thanks, guys--I knew you wouldn't let me and my toilet down. XD Now that I know it could indeed be something wonky and fixable, rather than necessarily just meaning it's a lousy toilet, I'm gonna start with filling out a maintenance form and see where that takes me. Hooray for renting! And if that doesn't work, this makes an excellent reference. --Masamage ♫ 06:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Share dealing - HELP

I buy shares online and I sell shares online. But I am throwing punches in the dark. Some online chatrooms try to ramp the shares up or else drive them down. Me? I make my own mind up - but others in those rooms, they are like frightened rabbits caught in the headlights - they buy - they sell - they hold - they ask for future movements and trust absolute strangers to guide their decisions. What I don't get is - where does the money go during all these frantic moves? And given that the buyer/holder of the shares has invested in the company concerned - does the company have the use of that money for its own purposes or is it floating around in some virtual gambling hall unconnected with the company concerned? By the way, I never invest more than I can afford to lose, and so far, I am doing OK. Thanks. 92.23.221.191 (talk) 23:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

You aren't dealing directly with the company that issued the stock. The company issues stock and some banks, brokers and big investment companies/ funds buy them in big lots. If the company can get enough buyers it will get the money on it's accounts. (It's actually all just numbers at the banks.) The buyers that didn't buy the stock to hold it (e.g. brokers, banks) then try to sell it. That's where the individual investors come in. Sometimes they even have a list of people willing to buy the stock from so they know beforehand that they can get rid of it. The broker makes money from the transaction fees and any gains the stock has while they hold it. (If the stock lost while they held it they lose that amount.) Hope this helps. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 00:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The money goes to other individuals who are in fact on the other end of the transactions. With the exception of the IPO, whenever you buy 100 shares of AAPL, your broker is matching your purchase order up with another guy who's selling at least 100 shares of AAPL ... to you. This is related to why reporters are wrong when there's a drop in the stock market and they write things like "US$10 billion destroyed in market drop" — sure, the shares in the aggregate are worth US$10 billion less than they were yesterday; but there were people on the other side of the original purchase transactions who are now holding all that money. It wasn't destroyed. Tempshill (talk) 03:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

There are two parties in any share transaction: a buyer and a seller. On average, one of them will make money and the other will lose money. Generally, uninformed investors (people trusting absolute strangers on the internet, for example) are likely to come off worse than an informed investor, e.g. a multinational bank employing a warehouse full of analysts to calculate the price of the stock. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe Tempshill is wrong in what he writes above. When shares lose value, there isn't some mysterious person receiving all that money. Something that was thought to be worth ten dollars is now worth five. The other five dollars doesn't go anywhere (really it didn't actually exist). Of course that doesn't mean that someone, somewhere, doesn't profit when shares go down - but it won't be the same amount that was lost. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm very surprised that someone trading shares on-line doesn't understand where the money goes. Unless you're just gambling for fun, this doesn't sound like something you should be doing. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the OP is simply confusing the primary and secondary markets for shares... --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

May 13

A few brain questions ....

1) What part of the brain is responsible for movement of the fingers?

2) If someone is unable to generate speech after an accident, what disorder are they suffering? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.238.244.74 (talk) 02:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't answer the first question, but I can tell you there are a huge number of disorders that can render people incapable of speech, either from birth or during their lives.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:49, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

2) see Aphasia. Edison (talk) 05:22, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried looking at our brain article and then linking on to red nucleus. Enjoy! Richard Avery (talk) 07:40, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

culture study

is there any term for the study of cultures of the world, like, for example, which city is famous for what?? also, is there any study of popular culture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.134.222 (talk) 04:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Study of the world's cultures comes under Geography, I believe. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

A study of the cultures of the world would be Anthropology. Which city is famous for what would be Culture, and a study of popular culture would be just that: Popular Culture.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Image I'm looking for; Putin, Russia

I'm trying to track down a photograph I stumbled upon aaages ago, and can no longer find on the Internet. It's a photo of a bunch of Russian kids, wearing Putin Youth t-shirts, sitting and watching an image of Putin on a TV, and at the same time there's a poster of Putin on the wall looking down at the kids. The whole effect was really, hilariously creepy. 58.161.196.113 (talk) 05:05, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

How can you see both the TV screen that the kids are looking at AND the poster on the wall behind them?Sorry, misread that. There was no mention of the position of the poster.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 06:01, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I've tracked it down to a Something Awful thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2727109&pagenumber=1 But I can't access it because I don't have an account (not sure how I managed to get it last time). I doubt there's much overlap in the Venn Diagram of Wikipedia editors and SA goons, but if anyone can grab it and imageshack it for me I'd be in your debt. I need it for an argument with someone who doesn't believe Putin is pushing Russia back towards a police state. 58.161.196.113 (talk) 12:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

how does the wiki-neutrality/accuracy template system work? MA dissertation

hey,

I'm currently writing on my dissertation on the battle for fallujah, which roughly deals with the question whether online or print news provider give more accurate information on the issue. I consulted the wikipedia article and was immediately stuck by the neutrality/accuracy warning. I was wondering whether it is possible to find out who/how many people claimed that the article was inaccurate and who decides whether the warning itself is appropriate, that is, justified to be put online.

thanks for your help. meike —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meikynei (talk • contribs) 10:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

If the article you're referring to is Fallujah during the Iraq War, a look at the article's history indicates that some such tag has been on it at least since this edit of 9 November 2006. As for who decides, anyone can add or remove such a tag at any time, although it's likely that it will remain or be readded as long as a significant number of editors think that the underlying issues are unresolved. The best way to find out what those issues are is to read the article's discussion page. (By the way, questions such as this are probably better asked at the help desk, which is for "questions on how to use Wikipedia." The reference desk is for general-knowledge questions.) Deor (talk) 11:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

thanks for the help & advice! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meikynei (talk • contribs) 14:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

one-child law in China

The article about China's one-child law never directly answered this question (or else I missed the answer...) so here goes: if a couple's only legal child dies young, can they still have another child? Thanks, Aylad ['ɑɪlæd] 12:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

They are legally allowed to have another child if the first one dies. In fact, slightly related, families in China can have as many children as they want, but they have to pay for the second one, third one, and so on. I have many friends in China who have brothers and sisters.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Unless you are in a politically undesirable group, or have earned the ire of the local party leader. China's "laws" can be extremely flexible. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 13:14, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

In some rural communities, the local cadre strictly enforces the one child policy, so some couples who already have a child give their second one to a childless couple. It's difficult to prove whose child it is, and it's quite a good thing all round.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:37, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

gambling

Some consider investing in stocks to be gambling, but I disagree because stocks are not a zero sum game like poker or the lottery. Is this view correct, or are there gambling games that are not zero sum? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 13:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The analogy of stocks to 'gambling' is about them being risky. You buy a stock knowing that it might go up or down, and that the factors affecting it are beyond your control. In that sense you are relying on 'luck' to get a positive return. 'Zero sum' isn't really relevant. However it's just an analogy, so you don't need to use it if you don't like it.

In answer to your other question, the first non zero-sum gambling game that springs to mind is Russian roulette. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:38, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea lotteries were run for free? The state takes a percentage before the money is shared out again. Gambling has nothing to do with it being zero sum. Investing in stocks isn't considered gambling as there is normally some expectation of gain rather than a loss as in betting on the horses. However if you are really really good you may consider a bet on the horses as investment rather than gambling - but you'll soon have problems placing bets! Dmcq (talk) 13:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe what I am looking for is not zero sum, but 0 or negative expectation, whereas stocks (in general) would have a positive expectation. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 13:54, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Working as a bookmaker or running a casino has a positive expectation, but is generally prohibited in societies that prohibit gambling. The British premium bonds system is also a form of gambling with positive expectation (essentially a lottery where you can reclaim your original stake at any time). Other forms of morally dubious activity like cheating at cards or pool hustling will have a positive expectation (much as being a professional gambler should do). Investing in stocks is a form of investing your money in a business, which is not generally considered gambling (Muslims are allowed to put money into a business), although when it comes to a stock exchange it's much more abstract than buying a share in a private limited company or partnership. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 14:12, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Owning stocks has historically had a positive long-term expectation, but that's no guarantee that any stock purchase you make today will ever show a gain. The S&P is down 33% from 10 years ago, and once you add in inflation there have been multi-decade periods where the real value expectation of market averages was negative. That said, the market does tend to outperform other forms of wait-and-see investments. On the other hand, a good poker player playing against other people can also have a positive expectation if they routinely play inferior opponents. In both cases you have incomplete information and are asked to predict future events, so I'd say the gambling analogy is a fairly good one. Historically one is more likely to do well on Wall Street than at Vegas, but that's perhaps just saying that the former is usually less risky. Dragons flight (talk) 14:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The distinction is a fine one. It boils down to information availability. If you have perfect information about the business you're investing in - you know every customer and supplier - what they are shipping and when and at what price - what every employee is paid, etc - then investing in that company is a science - not betting. However, if you had an equal amount of information about the horses in a horse race or the precise physics of a roulette wheel, then those would be a science and not betting. The problem is that you don't have perfect information - not when gambling - not when investing. So there is this big grey area between knowing all that there is to know about a company and knowing what return you'll get on your investment - to betting on a perfect random number generator where it's all down to statistics. Real gambling always falls somewhere between those two extremes. A roulette wheel is supposed to be a perfect random number generator. The dice on a craps table more or less the same (although there are people out there who can definitely bias the results). But you have definite information in games like blackjack - where the results aren't random and if you keep careful track of what cards have been played, you can even get a statistical edge over the house. Now we're entering a grey area where gambling and playing the stock market are not so different. When you climb the range of luck-versus-knowledge, you arrive at something like horse racing - which has about the same knowledge component as playing the stock market. You have the past racing form for every horse in the race, you know whether the ground is hard or soft and what the jockey is like...not a whole lot different from knowing the price-to-earnings ratios, the records from the last financial year, and that of the competitors - what the global market for widgets is - and the track record of the the CEO. So there is a scale from pure luck to pure judgement - and the stock market is towards one end of it.

The zero sum game thing is not relevent. Some games are only zero sum if you consider the 'house' as one of the players - in roulette, it's not a zero sum game because sometimes the ball lands on the 00 slot when everyone loses...but if you consider the house as a player, then it is a zero sum game because all of the money that's bet ends up in either the players or the houses pockets. But in the stock market, the money doesn't evaporate when you lose your shirt...someone won and someone lost. You just have to frame the gambling as two separate bets - one when you buy the share and another when you sell it. When you buy it - you are (in effect) betting the person that you bought it from that the value will increase. When you sell it, you are betting that it'll go down. If you buy a share and it's value halves and then you sell it - the money you "lost" was "won" by the person who sold you the share for more than its (future) worth. If the share had doubled in value, he would have lost that future worth and you would have gained. So buying a stock is like gambling with the person you bought it from. Seen like that, it's also zero sum - just like roulette. Even if you consider that your stock broker is taking a commission - but that's no different than the casino taking it's cut whenever the ball lands on 00. So the stock market is every bit as much a zero sum game as roulette.

SteveBaker (talk) 14:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that the relative difference is that, on the balance, people will always make money at stocks, while on the balance people will always lose money gambling. That is, while we can find anecdotes of people winning big in Vegas, and losing big on stocks, if we average the systems out over long periods of time, to eliminate the outliers, and smooth out any long, atypical streaks, gambling always loses money for the participants, while the stock market always makes money for the participants. That does not mean that individuals cannot lose lots of money in stocks, it means that the entire system average making money for people. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Except both statements are false. Professional gamblers in things like Poker and Sports betting can consistently win over the long-term by using superior knowledge/skill against inferior gamblers. Likewise, people can spend a lifetime investing in stocks and lose money if they consistently make inferior choices (especially if one includes an inflation adjustment). Neither is a sure outcome for any groups of gamblers. Dragons flight (talk) 15:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The other confusion is that you're mistaking "making money" with "making more money than you would have done if you'd put it into a zero risk savings account"...or whatever. If you put X dollars into stocks - and after a year, you sell them and get X+1% back - you've actually lost money - because you could have earned more with zero risk in other ways. The point when you are "winning" is when your earnings exceed what you could have gotten without any risk whatever. SteveBaker (talk) 19:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Gambling - by and large is betting on the outcome of an event (will I roll a 5, will my horse come first, will my team win game X or touranment Y) - the outcome you bet on is pre-defined. Investing is placing money in a company (ignoring the complications) in the expectation of a return (dividend or in share price). With betting you know your anticipated return before you place the bet - with investing you do not. With investment your returns are scalable - with gambling (excluding hedging) you either win X or you lose your entire amount. That would be my distinctions. It depends on how wide you make the distinction of 'gambling' and 'investing'. I definitely think it's a grey area but certainly in my mind investment is much better for society than gambling is (though of course i'm thinking of gambling as mostly betting on sports/event outcomes). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 15:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

No - that's a false distinction too. When you bet by buying a lottery ticket, you don't know what your potential earnings are because it depends on the number of other people who guess the correct number. But the uncertainty goes deeper than that. If I bet on the roll of a dice or the flip of a coin, I know the odds of winning precisely - when I bet on the stock market, I don't know either the odds OR the potential earnings amount. The uncertainty you're claiming distinguishes playing the stock market is there in (for example) horse racing - where the true probability of winning is unknown. Some forms of gambling (poker, for example) are even worse than the stock market in that you don't even know how much you stand to lose because you may have to increase your initial bet to stay in the game. In the stock market, you probably won't lose everything - but you might (eg if you had shares in the Enron corporation) - and in any case, what you are really betting is the interest you would have accrued over the time you own the shares if you had put the money into a nice, safe, savings account.

The more this debate goes on - the more convinced I am that there truly is no distinction. SteveBaker (talk) 19:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

With stocks, the companies you invest in generate wealth (sometimes less successfully then others, like AIG). Businesses create wealth using the money you invested while gambling only reshuffles it. Perhaps that is the key difference. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 19:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

voldemort's last horcrux

dumbledore had said in HBP that voldemort's seventh and last horcrux was inside his body. but later in DH, there was no reference to this and the last horcrux was revealed to be a fragment of his soul concealed in harry. can anyone explain this??

(it might have happened that Rowling had explained this in DH, but i didn't follow it. frankly speaking, i didn't exactly understand "the prince's tale" chapter's great explanations about horcruxes) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.139.37 (talk) 13:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

You can get an in-depth explanation at our article on Horcruxs. Livewireo (talk) 15:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the part of his soul inside his own body was considered a horcrux. He intended to split his soul in 7 and create 6 horcruxes, he accidentally split it into 8 and created 7 horcruxes (the 6 intended ones, plus Harry). --Tango (talk) 15:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

FBI WATCHLIST

If you want to find out if YOU ARE on the FBI WATCH LIST, is there any Freedom of Info/Public Record Act where you can lets say Email the FBI and they can say 'NO YOU ARE NOT ON THE WATCHLIST' (but since you've asked, Now You Are.)? I highly doubt the FBI is watching the Wikipedia Question board. Cheers, --i am the kwisatz haderach (talk) 20:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)