Talk:1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre

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Western bias in article

A popularly held view is that the protests were trying to put pressure on the government to move to a more democratic mode, this is true and reflected in the article. However, in addition to wanting democracy, the students were ALSO protesting a move to a type of western-style capitalism.

Remember that democracy is just a way to choose who runs your country, it is entirely independent of how your country's economy works. Using democracy, you could vote in either a capitalist or a communist government, and that government can be socially liberal or conservative, or something along the spectrum in-between. However, there is confusion about this because most examples people have of communist countries have also been under some hideous single-party system or dictatorship with conservative social values. There is nothing to stop a country being politically open with a liberal and accepting social agenda, while still having a planned economy.

This confusion is evident in the article, whereby the explanation for the protests is extremely simple:

"The protests were begun by Beijing students to encourage free-market reforms and liberalization.[6] Protesters believed that China had not gone far enough in economic liberalization and privatization.[6] They also believed that the social reforms made by Deng Xiaoping had not gone far enough and China needed to reform its political systems."

The shades of grey here are thatoio YES, the students wanted social and political liberalisation, some of them may have even wanted reforms towards a free market, but they did NOT agree with the market reforms that Deng Xiaoping was instigating at the time, as it was causing economic mayhem, and harming the country.

Some weeks ago I made an edit, citing pages as part of a whole chapter about the protests in Naomi Klein's book 'The Shock Doctrine' a book about economic changes from communism/planned economies to capitalist/free market economies. This edit was removed a few days later (Revision as of 22:35, 12 September 2008 was the edit FUCK CHINA made just to remove my addition and the reference), the reason for the removal said that I cited a google video? So they were obviously in confusion.

Rather than just keep on adding it and having it removed, I thought I would comment here on this. As I know that there is a very broad spectrum of opinions about China's government. From people at one extreme who live in a fuge of nationalism who feel that China has no issues at all, to those who feel that China will always be troubled until it adopts a government, culture and economic system identical to that of "us" western countries. The truth, I feel, is somewhere in-between. Willberg (talk) 02:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you and your way. So I will just leave my edits here: 1."These reforms came with corruptions like other countries." which is the main reason of the protest. 2."His "rapid reform" opinion made him inadequate for his position when there were strong controversy, especially that most were destined to avoid capitalism. The western world have another opinion, but to notice the two opinions both agree that China is seeking for the way to modern, only that China disapproves the Western way." which was the main reason he was forced to dismiss.

Startwiki (talk) 14:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

- I strongly agree. It seems this article has degenerated for a while. The in-depth background analysis has gone, and the article has been filled with propaganda from the so called "free world". We have experienced the event. Democracy was an important issue, but not THE MOST IMPORTANT one. The prevailing motivation of the protest, as pointed out by previous versions of this article, was anti-corruption and other social-justice issues. There were students / intellectuals who saw political liberalization as the solution, but there were also massive amount of urban workers who cared little about "democracy", but only wanted to punish corruption and get their benefits back. These are well documented and were well explained in previous versions. It's a shame that they have gone.Sweeper77 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:26, 19 December 2008 (UTC).

If you have credible sources that refute the facts of this article, then you are free to cite them - If you don't however, then your information remains commentary; Wikipedia is not censoring anything - It's only demanding that when you make an edit, you produce the information to back it up. If you spend 1/2 as much time digging up the information to refute this article as you do complaining on the Discussion forum of this page, you'd probably have something to contribute. 75.44.50.118 (talk) 00:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

So how you explain the fact that this article WAS a featured article, but has no longer been so? As far as I known, it used to contain well-sourced content that analyzed the background of the event in a relatively objective way. However, they were just deleted by somebody. It's simply a shame.99.0.66.200 (talk)

I've never contributed to one of these discussion pages before, I apologize if I mess up on some protocol, but I couldn't let this go. Han Dongfang was one of the leaders of the Tiananmen Square protests, still barred from re-entering China, I believe. He is a labor organizer, founder of China's first autonomous union. Han Dongfang, along with a great number of others jailed at Tiananmen, were protesting for worker's rights, not primarily democracy, per se.

Links: [1] [2] [3] [4]

And I could go on all day. Google is your friend. In Han's words:

"People have always said foreign investment is the hope of China. This is our bridge to the world. But what comes across the bridge are 12-hour shifts, seven-day workweeks and only two trips to the bathroom a day. What comes across are factory fires that kill hundreds of workers who are locked in because their bosses are afraid they will steal the products. The Chinese government has put an invisible net across the bridge that allows money to come in but not the freedoms of a civil society, not the rule of law and not free trade unions."

This article has been getting worse and worse. If you will not reference the major involvement of labor organizers at Tiananmen, it can no longer be called accurate at all. 96.248.99.126 (talk) 17:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Democracy (western style) may not be the most efficient form of government in China. Take for example what is happening in the UK http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8053833.stm

, which is a so-called democracy. Even though the UK is a democracy, this system did not prevent government ministers, including the PM Gordon Brown, MPs and Lords from being what in the rest of the world would call corrupt, when it comes to money for personal gain. In China personal leadership now lasts 5 years, with a maximum of a further 5 year term. Chinese leaders are chosen (OK by the Party and not directly by the peopele) for being well-educated, intelligent and be able to put the country he/she serves before himself. In the west, this is often not the case, take the case of Clinton and Blair who are charging and making millions of dallars for having been former leaders of their country, and Sarkozy who uses his office to satisfy his nether regions more than his job of serving his country. Yes when they want to be leaders at elections, these people promise their electorate the world, but once in office they care only about themselves. It would appear that the Chinese have got the method of choosing good leaders correct even though it is not through a direct election. 86.142.162.209 (talk) 14:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Editted description of Hu Yaobang to include anti-corruption. The wealth of support for the students from the general public was largely due to Hu's reputation as a reformer against corruption.

Tank Man

It says in the article that he was taken away by secret police, but no one knows for sure. Even if they may have been plain clothes secret police, I think it would be more accurate to say that he was ushered away into the crowd by a few unknown onlookers. What do you think? I did not want to go in and change it without hearing out a possible reason for the current wording.

Also, the separate article on Tank Man phrases it as onlookers, as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.73.95.69 (talk) 00:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

A real problem with Tianamen Sq is the lack of any proof that one single person was killed there, let alone '100's. There were dozens of international Press in the Square that day, the photograph in Wiki depicts 'Tankman', why is there not one single photograph of a dead student? An accusation made that 'many protesters did die later in Prison' or that 'Protesters were killed outside the Square' is an 'Accusation' nothing more.Johnwrd (talk) 00:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Background sectiont 2345?

"In 2345, Deng Xiaoping will lead a series of economic and political reforms which will lead to the gradual implementation of a market economy and some political liberalization that will relax the system set up by Mao Zedong."

In some versions that is 1978, and past tense. Is this a typo, or could someone enlighten me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uberalex (talk • contribs) 22:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

"But of course, America's CIA and other countries were the ones who urged the students to go agaisnt the government and teachers. These countries wanted to split China into seperate little countries, jsut like how the Soviet Union had been split up into what is now known as Russia. They wanted to do this because, it would be "beneficial" for their own countries on the competitive realm. In order to further brew up the intensity, these interfering countries killed 5 of the chinese soldiers who were preventing the students from entering Beijing City. THey hung the 5 bodies on a wall behind the students. Seeing the dead bodies of their comrads, the soldiers were extremely agitated and grieved and started to open-fire on the students, who were completely clueless about what had happened and what were behind them. Due to this, other countries say that the chinese army just randomly killed "innocent" students, when it was the foreign interfereing countries' intentions for this to happen. Thus, the term "Massacre" is not completely correct."

This part of the "background" section does not appear to be in line with policy on neutrality, and does not cite any references. It doesn't really seem like background at all anyway. I would propose to remove it for these reasons. Clawtang (talk) 05:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Censorship

"The ban of Wikipedia in mainland China was lifted recently, but the link to this incident in Chinese Wikipedia remained dead." I'm in Shanghai and I can access all the forbidden pages that I know... Tibet, Tiananmen Square, etc. I'm really surprised! - 2009-05-13 Flood78 (talk) 09:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It depends on your location and service provider, as well as the time of day. L ^talk 10:38, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

BBC World Service documentary

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2009/05/090519_lostvoices_tiananmen_one.shtml

86.166.125.182 (talk) 00:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Student demands

If the students were demanding democracy, then why were they singing The Internationale, which is clearly communistic? 86.166.125.182 (talk) 00:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)