Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Ng

John Ng

John Ng (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Non-notable martial arts teacher. Article is continously being re-created by a user who is likely either a student or this person himself. Passportguy (talk) 17:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not know why Passportguy has such a vendetta against me or john Ng. However I have tried very hard to give the information clearly. This is my second attempt in creating the page the earlyer one was deleted in less than one hour. John Ng is a very common name (much like john smith) I do not know about the earlier deleted pages. Also if you look at pages Ng Chung-sok and Ng Mui their is no issue with them and their martial art masters...--Duchamps_comb MFA 17:55, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

As i have explain to you frequently in the past, a person has to be notable to be included here. If you search for this person on google, you will find next to no pertinent hits and even the article does not mention him doing anything notable. I'm sure your teacher is a great guy and a good teacher, however in a nutshell : if he isn't famous, he doesn't belong here. Passportguy (talk) 18:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

First off he is not my teacher (would it really matter if he was). Secondly the internet does not hold all of the knowledge in the world. Thirdly when someone is notable in foreign academia you will not find it on the internet (unless your a babblefish expert). As well the martial arts are not cover very well unless your a UFC jackass. You still not addressed my concerns with the pages Ng Chung-sok and Ng Mui. Apparently you have no bias against those pages.--Duchamps_comb MFA 18:12, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

It would matter if you are closely connected with this person, see WP:COI. As for the other two : The article on Ng Mui claims that he is "said to have been one of the legendary Five Elders — survivors of the destruction of the Shaolin Temple by the Qing Dynasty" which seems like something notable. As for the other one (Ng Chung-sok- you are correct, I have tagged him for deletion also, as the article does not state that he is notabel either. Passportguy (talk) 18:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from. However it was not my intent to get Ng Chung-sok tagged for deletion, I was trying to see where the line is. *Example if Yoda teaches obi-one kenobi then he teaches Luke Skywalker who is notable? Ng Chung-sok taught Yuan Kay-shan he taught Shum Lung same thing really (unless Shum Lung was on UFC last year or dresses up like Elvis and does the viva Los Vegas in the NYC subway... My point is notability is biased to pop culture kitsch and honorable people of the past are lost to Wikipedia.--Duchamps_comb MFA 18:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

In your example none of them is notable just because they were a student or a teacher of someone else. Each of these people will have had to have done something significant by themselves to become notable. To use a real-life example : Stalin is notable, his elemrntary school teacher is not, unless he for some reason has been the subject of extensive scientifc research or is notable for some other reason. Passportguy (talk) 18:51, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Stalin --the way you edit he probably is your hero. LOL. I understand noteability and blah blah whatever... But just take a look at Naked Cowboy and Star Wars Kid pop culture noteability at its best. Many people in history (or martial art history) have done "something significant" and they are not here I think WP needs to have some things changed. IMHO. --Duchamps_comb MFA 19:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

• Merge and rd to either Wang Zi-Ping or possibly Snake_in_the_Monkey's_Shadow#Drunken_technique; nn on his own. See also User_talk:Dank/Archive_7#John_Ng. JJL (talk) 18:14, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. —JJL (talk) 18:14, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. -- - Dank (push to talk) 18:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. -- - Dank (push to talk) 18:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

• Delete This is barely a stub of an article about a notably non-notable subject. LargoLarry (talk) 18:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
• Keep - Needs an expert I did some research on the man, but am not expert in the field of martial arts, and the name John Ng is far too common to make a search at all easy. My thought is that as a Grand Master and teacher, he must certainly have the slew of awards and medals and commendations that will show his notability. Any experts out there that can help? Further, these searches on THIS Google and Google books seem to show he easily passes WP:BIO per "has received a notable award or honor, or has been often nominated for them", "has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field". He also seems to easily pass WP:ATHLETE per "competed at the highest amateur level of a sport" (when young) and "competed at the fully professional level of a sport" (when older), as "sports" as a term is not restricted to baseball, basketball, or football. He even sneaks past WP:CREATIVE per "is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors", and "is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique". Heck, as a Master and Teacher of the martal arts, he even slides in under WP:ACADEMIC, as "academic" is not confined to only books and the "hard" sciences. Yup. Needs an expert. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 21:17, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment The problem with this article - and many that get posted - is that they aren't sourced. With nothing substantial on google (those sources you posted above show people with the name Ng - a common name, these people may not be identical with the person in question) - this is very unlikely ever to get sourced. If it does and those source show notablity, I have no objection to the article. In order to keep vanity on here in check, we really need to insist on sources establishing notablity. The off-chance that someone may be notable is not enough to keep an article if that notablity cannot be sufficiently sourced, see WP:V. Passportguy (talk) 21:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment The problem with notablity via something "substantial on google", is that many martial artists are not authors and many websites do not keep up with MA tournament awards/accolades. As well if they have contributed to or were talked about in Inside Kung Fu or black belt magazine and many others it will not be found on google. What if john Smith had been published twenty some times in reliable sources periodicals in his field is he then notable? If so, what if a Google search does not find an "online source."--Duchamps_comb MFA 00:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Indeed, but lack of sources is a reason to tag for such and not offer for nomination only because it is not currently sourced or over a concern that it make likely never get sourced. Common sense would seem to indicate that someone who is an established Master and teacher (WP:Verified under his name Wing-Lok Ng, not the "Americanized" John Ng), must have participated in the various competitions required to win that Mastership. Yes, I do agree that the article needs sourcing, but as Wikipedia itself grants that it does not expect to be perfect, tagging the article as I have done, for atention by experts in the field, would seem to most prudent course that allows for eventual improvement of the article and the project itself. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 00:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)