Talk:Ambient music

Merged

This now combines the articles that were formerly at "ambient", "ambient music" and "ambient techno": in spite of the different names, they were all about the same subject, ambient music. So, I've moved them all here. They now need merging/copyediting. The Anome 10:12 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Merge dark ambient as well? Sanctum 01:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm coming around to that idea. Alexander Elder 17:29pm, 3rd Feburary, 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad somebody finally combined all the ambient articles. I think we should take the last three paragraphs and organize the other facts into them, because they seem quite well-organized and comprehensive, they just need more details.

Pema

Ambient electronica album?

In a previous iteration of the "Ambient electronica", an anonymous contributor wrote this:

As far as I know, no one has made an entire album out of this, but a good examples of this is Radiohead's song "Treefingers."

about "Unmeasured [soundscape]". As questions shouldn't be in a Wikipedia article, I moved it here. Can anybody define this subgenre of ambient and/or suggest an answer? I was also going to suggest Nobukazu Takemura as an example of this subgenre. -- Lexor 17:29 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Conventional?

In my (and my friends') humble opinion 'conventional' ambient doesn't really make sense. It's just very soft DnB, or soft techno. And I wouldn't call the music done by artists like Jarre and Moby ambient... Guaka 21:48, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

New age

I think it makes sense to give new age music its own page, because it is distinct from ambient as a genre. Ambient and new age are 2 separate subgenres of electronic music. heidimo 21:00, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

You are right, it probably doesn't deserve to be considered a subgenre, but these artists should be discussed as part of the history of ambient music, because there is considerable overlap in the styles. Actually, New Age music does have a separate section. I moved the separate genre back to the history section, because it's really part of the history of the second wave of ambient music than an ambient genre per se.

Lexor, it makes more sense now--looks good. I tweaked the language a bit in that new age/history paragraphy in an attempt to make it less awkward. The "new age" link in the paragraph goes to a general new age page, though, and not to a music page, like your link above does. I must admit I'm not fond of that clunky chart, though it does serve a purpose. heidimo 23:28, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thread moved from User talk:Lexor:

Ambient in Electronic styles list

Lexor,
With all due respect, ambient dub is a different sub-genre than dub. Same goes with ambient house, etc. I see plenty of other minor distinctions in other sections. heidimo 04:22, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree that ambient dub is different to dub, but we did an agglomeration of most of the ambient articles a while ago, since most of the descriptions for the subgenres were sub-stubs, and also ambient dub, ambient house articles don't exist as yet. What I plan to do is to add summary information to the main ambient music, then add Main article: ambient house under the title (see for example the progressive music page for an example of how this is done, there wasn't enough info to justify extra articles for progressive house, progressive techno etc. so they appear in the main article, but there was enough for progressive rock) if the article is more than a stub. I'm sorry if I jumped the gun somewhat and you were about to create those articles. --Lexor 08:31, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Lexor, I was about to create those. I'm a new contributor, so I'm a little unclear about the conventions sometimes. I created a new ambient groove article, but then thought from what you said that it would be more appropriate as part of the ambient article, so I moved it over there. But of course, the link doesn't go there. As far as the list goes, I thought it should be as complete as possible, but link to the sections in the ambient article, rather than individual articles on every sub-genre if that's what you're suggesting. heidimo 19:36, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Organic and nature ambient

I'm inclined to think these two subgenres are really the same. What do others think? heidimo 16:13, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There is a pretty clear distinction between the two, even if they do have samples from nature in common. Sanctum 06:19, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quick additions

Hello All

I just had to include other influences, such as; reggae, traditional, world music- all having their role in shaping ambient soundscapes.

Also a little input on the dub masters of old who were first to "play" with post producing sound effects dub-echoe-delay etc. which has greatly influenced the electronic sounds and styles of today. I can add later some contemporary ambient dub artists.

Ben3rdEye 2005/02/02

yep king tubby and all that was good stuff - but they were no way the first experimenting with delay reverb and tape loops and the like. Peop0le like pierre schaeffers music concrete and early radiphonic practitioners ie bbc radiphonic workshop etc were using such effects as early as the 40s .

Dark Ambient

There is an entry on dark ambient here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_ambient Which should probably be merged into the ambient definition. Dark ambient is a pretty large subgenre of ambient but it still belongs under the definition of ambient. The article could use some clarifications, mostly about it's origins. Any objections to moving the dark ambient entry over here?

Also, I'd like to add mention of Tangerine Dream. They had huge influences on ambient even if they were never called ambient themselves. Sanctum 06:24, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Zero beat?

I've never heard the term "beatless" before, but I have heard of "Zero beat," and I'm guessing they're the same thing. Permission to add a reference to "Zero beat" into the Beatless section? --Jay (Histrion) 15:10, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I've also heard of zero-beat rather that beatless - added a.k.a.. Misza13 19:02, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

• I've always seen (and used) "beatless"; quick googling:

-about 843 for "beatless ambient"

-about 150 for "zero-beat ambient"

I guess it may depend on which sites/zines you're reading. Any article about the topic should namecheck both, at any rate...

-- 62.147.39.94 16:09, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, this is the first I've heard the term "zero-beat". "Beatless" is the term I've always known and used. Greenie2600 00:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

i've heard both terms used quite a bit, probably better to use them both wimbledon andy (talk) 00:50, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Miles Davis' In A Silent Way

The list and history is missing Miles Davis' ambient jazz album In A Silent Way [1] (1969). It was influential on people such as Radiohead (Kid A, Amnesiac), Mark Hollis (Spirit of Eden, Laughingstock, Mark Hollis), for instance. (I think Aphex Twin namechecked it too, but he fibs so much...)

Now added. From the same year, there's also the ambient jazz piece "Orange Lady" (from 13:35 to the end of "Great Expectations / Orange Lady") collected on Big Fun, it sounds like an Indian Vangelis ;)

P.S. : Oh, and also the 32-minute ambient jazz dirge "He Loved Him Madly" on Get Up With It, which Brian Eno declared to be a lasting influence on him after 1981 [2]. And then we have Bill Laswell who remixed Miles Davis by removing the jazzy sections to bring out the ambient flavors on Panthalassa [3] (1998). -- 62.147.113.42 08:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

P.P.S. : Following the format of some other entries, I have added those two Davis albums to the list, with explicit mention that it's for those influential tracks. (OTOH, I'm not sure how much influential Laswell's reconstruction album may have been to ambient artists, and it's probably too soon anyway.) -- 62.147.112.136 16:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

External links

The purpose of external links in any article is to provide readers with a means of sampling in greater depth of material or content referred to in the article. In the context of this article, deleting references to major ambient music content providers such as Hearts of Space and Soma FM serves only to significantly degrade the value of the article, as these are primary examples of the article's subject matter. Describing such links as "spam" is false and misleading. --Gene_poole 01:45, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Björk in the list is a joke, right?

Yesterday while reformating/updating the "list of notable albums", I noticed some odd entries. Especially Björk's dance/electronica albums. Was there a serious reason to include them? Else I'm going to delete them. Same for those apparently non-notable internet bands who sneaked their URL at the bottom of the list, after an AMG check. -- 62.147.113.42 08:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Now going to do that, cf. sections below -- 62.147.112.136 16:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Deleted entries & justifications

Entries I'm going to delete (right now) from the "list of notable albums", and why:

• Ray Buttigieg - Not on AMG, apparently non notable and essentially documented only on Wikipedia and its clones (Google search)
• Wally Badarou - Doesn't look notable or influential, or even ambient, AMG says "Badarou breathes real life into his synthesizers on this album of happy, upbeat, and danceable instrumentals." [4]
• True Colour Of Blood/True Colour of Blood - listed at AMG, but for one 2003 album only, without any overview, biography, album writeup, or even full categorization (they say "rock"). It looks like a mere automatic inclusion from a database. (Plus they spammed their URL in lieu of wikilink.) Doesn't seem notable/influential enough with respect to the other entries of the list (AMG entry).
• Stargarden - Not on AMG nor Amazon, non-notable Internet band [5], spammed their URL in lieu of wikilink, etc.
• Björk - As noted above, pop/dance electronica isn't influential ambient.
• Karlheinz Essl - Not on AMG, not on Amazon (well, he has a *book* there), apparently non-notable/influential Internet composer and writer of software generating "ambient music".
• Telomere Music - On AMG, but without any overview/bio, simply a database dump of two albums [6]. Album listed on Amazon but it's an individual selling it eBay-style as "used record" [7] so it's not significant. Plus it's self-published (his own label), MP3 "CDs", and self-labelled "New Age" [8] . Seems pretty non-notable, non-influential anyway, for such list.
• Chillage People - Not on AMG, not on Amazon, music sold as MP3s, non-notable/influential for this list.
• One Umbrella - On AMG but w/o any overview/biography/classification/description, i.e. database dump [9], not on Amazon, etc.

Of course, feel free to discuss and provide documented references about why some should be put back into such list.

-- 62.147.112.136 16:03, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Entry I'm putting back in -

Chillage People - solid water. I put a lot of the info in this section in on lamonte young, reich, tangerine dream, cage, satie and the like by the way, and I teach music at a university, focusing on electronic music and popular music, in case you are wondering who I am. Since when were amazon and AMG the most important sources out there? This group have been going for many years, before the likes of Lemon Jelly, Alpinestars, appeared. They cross the boundaires between chill out and ambient. They have performed at festivals like Boom in Portugal, and other events that have substantial ambient stages, they are unusual because they perform live. You can buy them on i-tunes, and amazon, http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006FX67/qid=1148473042/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/203-6563386-1997504 and on most ambient web based shops http://www.ambientmusic.co.uk/ambient_planet.html but this is a Basilian record label distrinbuted by a French label. They have perfomred at many of the ambient music events in the Uk such as IDSpiral, the Mellout, Synergy Connective, Liquid. You won't find any of them on Amazon either. So I've put this in as a contemporary active band, rather than armchair home ambientists. We could also do with more contemporary ambient music, such as kumba mela project, sonic state, sons of arqa. Also there is little contemporary electro-acoustic music here either.

I'll leave it as a brief comment though

It appears that 1 editor is attempting to not-very-subtly subvert the content of this article so that it conforms with his rather eccentric interpretation of what constitutes ambient music, by expunging anything that doesn't agree with his POV - including many important early pioneers in and influences on the genre. Please feel free to include as much content as you feel appropriate. --Gene_poole 04:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not eccentric, man. I am a very logic person. Maths, Physics, Science, Arts and Politics are among my interests. Brian Wilson 15:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

To be deleted entries & justifications

Entries I won't delete just yet, to see if someone has evidence/references for keeping them:

• Deuter - AMG has a large discog of him, but it's all New Age, doesn't seem notable, nor influential on others (AMG overview)
• Constance Demby - Described at AMG as New Age. The gushing and hyperbolic AMG biography seems disproportionate and written by a fellow New Age believer: "Tapping into her spiritual guidance, she brought through, track by track, Novus Magnificat, the album that many call the most important New Age recording of all time" (AMG biography) -- thus reducing it's credibility. However, other New Age pages seem to say this album is considered very influential for New Age, possibly for ambient... (25 influential ambient CDs as seen by New Agers)
• William Basinski - Listed at AMG (AMG) but no overview, no biography, no "influential on...". Also one album on Amazon [10]. Googling shows a presence (online store selling his CDs), but I feel this seems too recent/marginal to be considered "influential album" yet, not on par with the rest of the heavyweights on the list.

Feel free to discuss and provide documented references about why some should be kept into such list.

-- 62.147.112.136 16:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Deuter and Constance Demby are both ambient artists of significance and should certainly not be deleted. Deuter in particular has been producing ambient music since the 1970s and is a pioneer of the genre.--Gene_poole 02:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd barely call Constance Demby an ambient artist, much less an important ambient artist. I think you're taking "new age music" and "ambient music" to be synonyms, which they most surely are not. I'm with 62.147.112.136 on deleting her from the list - the list should be important proto-ambient and ambient works, not a place to promote your favorite ambient artist. I also think the Richard Bone entry doesn't belong - he's actually a fairly minor ambient artist and I was able to trace the addition of the entry back to the maintainer of his website. Peter G Werner 18:21, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Please forgive my contribution to the ‘notable ambient musicians’ section Mr. Werner. I have no doubt you are the expert on ambient music and who should or should not be included. I had no idea maintaining a website for an artist made one a less valuable contributor. Even though Richard Bone has been creating ambient & electronic music for 15 years and considered by many reliable sources to be one of the most significant ambient musicians in the US, I have/will deleted my contributions. Marleen 00:38, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

the William Basinski on disgocs.com has a load of information. i'd advise using discogs as well, as from my experience, amg sucks ass ;) --MilkMiruku 13:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Richard Bone is an ambient composer of note and should most certainly be included on this list. --Gene_poole 03:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Gene_poole for your support of Richard Bone's inclusion to the Ambient Artist list. I will definitely re-add his two most notable ambient recordings. I have only just now realized that P.W.’s insistence on removing Richard’s name was simply his POV, and not an attack on me personally for entering that data due to the fact that I run Richard’s website. Seems to me that the best content is going to come from contributors who have solid information to share. And since Richard’s latest album was chosen from over 2500 albums as one of five nominees for the Best Ambient Album of 2005 by the industry standard NAR, I have no doubt as to whether or not Richard is more than just ‘a fairly minor ambient artist’. Marleen 21:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I have no objection, at least, if he really is a notable ambient artist at this point. I've heard on him, didn't think he was notable, and also noticed that all Wikipedia contributions about him came from his webmaster, and took it as a kind of vanity posting. I'm not going to argue the significance of Richard Bone in particular, however, I will reiterate that the quality of this article has really suffered from people who are adding the names of their favorite ambient artist to the list of notable ambient artists or to the text of the article, with no regard as to the historic or current importance of the artist in question. Peter G Werner 00:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

External links

Would the person engaging in wholesale external link deletions from this article please stop it. People who read this article are going to want to know where to actually hear the music discussed, after all. --Gene_poole 02:57, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I went through them all and culled the spam. the state of the links on the article was ridiculous. Do not re-add them. --GraemeL ^(talk) 02:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been through them myself several weeks ago, and they're not spam. Do not delete them again. --Gene_poole 03:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The commercial links for the software do not belong here as they violate policy. The shop links also violate policy. The radio station links violate WP:NOT a web directory. --GraemeL ^(talk) 03:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Commercial links do not violate any policy if they are of particular relevance to the subject. The radio stations listed are the most important, popular and well-known promoters of ambient music - ie exactly what a reader of this article would expect to find in an encyclopedia article on this subject. You're suggestiong that no article can contain links to any site which is (a) commercial or (b) relevant - which is just plain ludicrous, and certainly not part of any WP policy. --Gene_poole 03:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

you could call any music listed an advert for a product, every record ever released is commercial, and all this discussion of it is an advert.Trying to police it by removing anything one person thinks is commercial raises as many questions as it answers...

Ambient and popular music

Hello, thank you for re-editing my sentences, I am aware that my English is not perfect. Please note that a few drone sounds that can be heard in "A Saucerful of Secrets" and "More" by Pink Floyd have connections with Ambient music. Anyway, within next weeks I am going to contact WP administrators and a few University experts regarding all these Electronic and ambient music related articles that are here. I understand that for young people below 25, Ambient is one of the music genres that can be listened in nightclubs, but I can ensure that it is not semantically correct. Ambient is mainly Brian Eno, Cluster and their followers in the New Age stream. Slang and young people ideologies are not suitable for encyclopedias. skysurfer 17:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't say as I agree with your narrow definition of ambient music, and in particular, I take issue with your inclusion of "New Age" music as an important ambient genre. "New age" is kind of a meaningless term embracing all manner of music that is in some way connected with "new age" spirituality. It includes some artists who are clearly ambient-influenced, but also includes soft acoustic music (along the lines of various Windham Hill artists), "quiet storm" jazz, bombastic orchestrated pop (for example, Yanni), and contemporary "middle of the road" instrumentals. New Age, if it can be called a genre at all, is clearly a hybrid genre, not a subgenre of ambient music.

I take also take issue with restricting the term ambient to 1970s artists like Brian Eno. The genre has grown a great deal since then, and the growth of such subgenres as ambient industrial/dark ambient (about which I've contributed several articles), ambient techno, and organic ambient over the last 25 years has been very important. I agree that much of what was called "ambient techno" in the 1990s really strained the definition of "ambient", much of it being essentially dance music - nonetheless, there is a core of techno artists who have been actively producing music over the last 25 years that could genuinely be considered "ambient".

Finally, I take some issue with overstating the influence of Pink Floyd on later ambient music - just because an album includes "a few drone sounds" doesn't make it an important influence on ambient. The influence of Pink Floyd on later ambient music is there, but to list every early Pink Floyd album as if it was a vital influence on ambient is simply overstating the case. I really think minimalist composers (such as Steve Reich and Terry Riley) and the more electronically-oriented krautrock bands (such as Popul Vuh, Cluster, and Tangerine Dream) are far more important influences. Peter G Werner 18:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I never stated that New Age music is a subgenre of Ambient Music, I only mean that many New Age musicians of course got inspired by Eno's works, both in style and techniques.

The list of Pink Foyd's album was longer before I edited that, it included Atom hearth mother, that really has no relevance with this article.

Brian Eno is still alive and is releasing almost every year an Ambient album credited to himself or as a co-work with other artists. The following (real) musicians, to name a few, are appreciated in many countries and are actively contributing to ambient music (or have done so in last 2 decades), with several remarkable albums: Robert Fripp, David Sylvian, Steve Jansen & Richard Barbieri, Andy Summers, Roger Eno, John Hassell, Holger Czukay, Russel Mills, Michael Brooks, Roedelius, Tangerine Dream.

Youngsters are free to use any slang they want, but should keep in mind that slang doesn't meet the formal standard requirements for an encyclopedia's article. The same applies to the words used by some radio stations and newsmagazines, it is just a temporary fad; as you noticed none use the words "New Wave" today for Simple Minds, U2, New Order, though in the 80s it was an abused definition. "Ambience" is the most proper word for the works of those artists and deejays that began their careers in nightclubs contexts and/or related audience; they regard themselves as Ambience very often. This article need to be split in two articles, one for real ambient and most relevant subgenres, the other for clubs-oriented artists and deejays. The same should apply to the Electronic music article. Though you contribute with some articles regarding ambient derivative forms, it doesn't give you the right to state whatever you want on well recognized artists or pretend to ignore them, otherwise I have to realize that your real purposes go beyond music.skysurfer 13:58, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Quite simply, your narrow definition of "real ambient" vs "ambient techno" is POV. If you want to place some wording in along the lines that some people don't consider ambient techno or ambient with beats to be real ambient music, be my guest - I know based on my reading of forums like the Ambient list that there are others that share that view, but also that there are others that consider ambient techno to be a proper form of ambient music. (The term "ambience music" (as opposed to "ambient music") is one that I've never heard before, and searching for it on Google, I can't find others who are using the term the way you're using it. Can you provide a reference to anybody else who is using the term?) Eno, of course, continues to record, but why that should imply that only artists who are doing music close to his should be treated as "ambient" is beyond me. Splitting up the article or deleting artists based solely on your own POV is simply not called for.

I'm not sure what your point is about new age music - "Ambient is mainly Brian Eno, Cluster and their followers in the New Age stream" - that seems to imply that present-day new age artists should be considered the mainstream of ambient music, and I would strongly contest that point for reasons given above. The present wording in the article about the relationship between ambient music and new age is adequate, and I see now reason to change it.

As for your point about "it doesn't give you the right to state whatever you want on well recognized artists or pretend to ignore them" - just how am I doing that? If you look at most of my edits to the article, they've mostly been concerned with the logic, readability, and coherence of this article, which as it stands is in pretty bad shape. The article as its been put together so far has just been a dumping ground for people to plug their favorite artist or album. I have simply paired down the list of "Notable artists" to the more artists that are actually notable within this genre. I've also taken out unnecessary and cumbersome citing of albums in the text of the article. Peter G Werner 15:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, for you the ambience link(s): http://music.hyperreal.org/epsilon/ then click on: http://www.sleepbot.com/ambience/

I am not personally harrassing you, but all the users that previously edited this article. Techno was born around 1986-88, not more than 20 years ago; FSOL worked on a track with/for David Sylvian & Robert Fripp (Darshana) in 1988 and it's one of first ambient + drumming great song. I am wondering if you all were already born at that time.

I am into electronics, music and electronic music since 1977. I have some college studies in Maths and Physics, and am interested also in Ecology, Medicine, Philosophy, Epistemology and Linguistics.

I agree with you, "The article [..] been put together so far has just been a dumping ground for people to plug their favorite artist or album". But I can't understand why you say that "I really think [...] the more electronically-oriented krautrock bands (such as Popul Vuh, Cluster, and Tangerine Dream) are far more important influences", please note that these artists are alive, are still playing and recording albums and have crowds of listeners worlwide regardless their age. You quote them only as "influential", giving for granted that no longer are in the game. Techno-derivative forms of ambient, or ambience, are very far from this achievement, these artists are mainly listened in UK and USA only by youngsters aged below 30.

Well, its not difficult to reach some NPOV on this matter: let's contact a music university department. If you still are a university student, that should not be difficult for you.

The article is not really bad, but it needs heavy re-editing and a more balanced approach, because most of Ambient music fans (the same applies to Electronic music in general) are proud listeners of the artists that I am mentioning above.skysurfer 17:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I've been listening to Brian Eno since the late 1970s as well. I'm quite aware that ambient techno (and ambient industrial) came later than "original" ambient. I simply strongly disagree with your purist definition of ambient music - to say that ambient music is entirely restricted to artists who are working in more or less the same area as Brian Eno and that incorporation of industrial or techno influences entirely disqualifies an artist from being considered "ambient" is quite narrow and definitely POV. I doubt Brian Eno himself would subscribe to this point of view, actually. As for citing Steve Reich and Terry Riley as "influential" - what exactly is wrong with that? They don't call themselves ambient musicians, so I'm not going to force that label on them. (For my part, I consider Music for 18 Musicians to be one of my favorite ambient compositions).

Your argument is a bit like saying that the term "rock music" should be restricted to the style that was performed by rock and roll bands from before 1963, and that all styles of rock that came after the early 1960s simply shouldn't be called "rock". That would be regarded by most people as a very narrow and purist definition of rock music.

I've looked at your link to the "Ambience for the Masses" site, and I don't see them using the term "ambience" as a term in any way different from "ambient music" in general.

I'm unclear about your point, "most of Ambient music fans (the same applies to Electronic music in general) are proud listeners of the artists that I am mentioning above." Exactly which artist are you talking about? And aren't artists like Brian Eno already prominently mentioned in the article? What imbalance are you talking about? If I see any imbalance, its that the article is too heavily weighted towards proto-ambient artists who came before Brian Eno, and not enough from the 1970s and later, when the term "ambient music" was actually in use.

I am a graduate student at SFSU, but I don't see the point of contacting a university music department. One thing I know academic music departments do not spend their time doing is hairsplitting on the taxonomy of popular music genres. Peter G Werner 18:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

In the article too much space is taken by the section "derivative forms...", while recent works by Robert Fripp, David Sylvian, Steve Jansen & Richard Barbieri, Andy Summers, Roger Eno, John Hassell, Holger Czukay, Russel Mills, Michael Brooks, Roedelius, Klaus Schulze, Tangerine Dream, are not mentioned enough; of course no mention for "minor" artists such as Würzel.

Please, are you watching the articles list of electronic music genres and Electronic Music?. They are worst than Ambient music. I am sure you will agree on that. I am not saying that the derivative forms of Ambient must not mentioned at all, I just think that they deserve less space in this general context and more space in a suitable article. They should be regarded as part of the Techno scene, and also as a fusion, a crossover, between the real Ambient and the Techno, but the context is merely Techno. With regard to names, for example, none states that symphonic rock is classical music or that it is a derivative form of classic music, and none states that it is rock (or rock 'n roll); it is exactly symphonic rock, a subgenre of progressive rock with a strong classic music influence. I hope we can collaborate to make this dozen of articles more consistent. skysurfer 20:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Beyond NPOV, I am seeking the "scientific truth" about Electronic Music and Ambient Music. I hope it is of interest for Wikipedia's administrators and users, otherwise I'll say "byebye, nice to meet you mates, it's been a pleasure to co-work with you, see you later", and I'll no longer release any contribute. Just let me know. skysurfer 03:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Ambient film?

I was wondering why there's a list of "Notable filmmakers and works in chronological order" without any kind of contextualizing information about "ambient film" or even a word of explanation as to what that list is doing in the article. This information should be added, or the list gotten rid of.

In the case of the David Lynch films, "Eraserhead" and "The Elephant Man", I certainly see the relationship between the sound design of David Lynch and Alan Splet to later ambient noise music. I can also see why Eraserhead, in particular, could be seen as an "ambient film". As for the rest of the films, I can't see why they're listed and what their relationship to ambient music is. Peter G Werner 16:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Be serious please

Hello "community", is there any one that wants to seriously contribute to these articles without being influenced by fashioned and POV statements made by some music press? Can someone tell me which Pink Floyd's tracks have relevance with ambient music? And why this article should stay here with a "loosely" definition? Its non-sense...Brian Wilson 17:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I am removing, step by step, the faked and unsupported information that I've found here. If someone doesn't agree, please leave a message at my talk page or here. Brian Wilson 0:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Influence of Muzak and more

I'm adding Muzak as an influence to this genre as it is the first widespread form of ambient music. This article refers to it from the liner notes of Ambient 1: Music for Airports by Brian Eno, but I believe it is a bit misleading as the liner notes state Muzak both as a strong influence as well the reason why many composers have dismissed environmental music as a worthy artform. It should be noted that Muzak is possibly the most recognisable form of ambient music, and while I firmly believe it is a separate genre, I think it deserves a bit more of a mention here than it gets.

I'd also like to add a small blurb on why the films that have been included in this list are here. I'm going to add it just above the table so people aren't just given a list of movies all of a sudden. At present it's a little confusing. Basically what I'm going to say is that they all feature ambient music in their soundtracks and integrate it into the filmscape in order to enhance the movie experience. Since I didn't add most of them, and haven't seen quite a few, I'd appreciate it if folks who know more about them could add more detail. If nobody steps up I'll rent them and do my best.

Other than that I'd just like to make some minor grammatical edits here and there and try to clean up the overview so it reads more clearly. I'm going to try not to alter any of the information, so this shouldn't be much of a problem. Speaksoft 16:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Pink Floyd, J.M. Jarre and a new list

Pink Floyd are one of my favourite bands, I'm listening to them since late 1970s. Their instrumental 'Quicksilver'- album 'More', is very similar to Eno's ambient, though none mention that; actually, the theme of that track is more relevant to psychedelic culture in that context. I guess that the 'context' is still important in music; the meta-content or meta-musical-content, the poetry, the style, the techniques are very important, too. The track "Main Theme" in the same album sounds to me like a sort of prelude of "Oxygen" by J. M. Jarre. These are just my opinions, and if many other people will share that, we can get a NPOV. Some tracks in J. M. Jarre's albums are truly ambient; please don't forget that Ambient tracks are minimalistic, in other words, no melodic parts or aggressive drummings (such music, depending on tunes, harmonies, rythms, context and so on, would be regarded as prog rock or jazz fusion). I guess that a good idea is a new article: List of ambient tracks in non-ambient albums. What do you think? Brian Wilson 15:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Ambient House, Ambient Techno and IDM

Please note that even Aphex Twin do NOT regard himself as full-time Ambient musician (none is, actually), otherwise he wouldn't have released 2 albums of Ambient tracks taken from his previous works. Brian Wilson 15:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The context, the content, the style, the techniques

I want to explain better my starements and removals of inconsistent information: most of modern dance music is produced, written, played with the purpose of make us enjoy clubs and even daily life.

Electronic music, since its beginning was "Electronic" not only becouse of its means, but MAINLY becouse of its content and context. 'The medium is the message' (Im quoting whom? I dont remember now). It was a sort of revolution against academic approach, first; eventually, electronic music become a bit more popular, but those musicians never forgot that their music was a sort of experimentalism. Now, modern synths make us available a large number of editing possibilities, but does that mean that we all are experimenting? It depends on the musician's will and statements.Brian Wilson 12:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

please read my contribution at the WikiProject Music genres page. Thank you. Brian Wilson 14:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

NU Skool Ambient

Hi Guys, i was wondering if i could include a link to my website on the external site links.I have created some new ambient music. I wont put the URL up here as i`m not a spammer.Can someone please contact me and i will give you the website address for you to check out.Bob 17:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC).

This a genuine message.

edit. Thanks Brian for the suggestion.

Appropriate definition for this genre

Ambient music is a minimalist and experimental musical genre that may incorporate elements of a number of different styles - including electronic art music, concrete music, jazz, rock, modern classical music, reggae, traditional, world and noise.

I will put it back, unless someone can provide me with further suggestion.Brian W 23:01, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest merging both the current definition as well as the one you just suggested in that way: Ambient music is a loosely defined minimalist musical genre that may incorporate elements of a number of different styles - including electronic art music, concrete music, jazz, rock, modern classical music, reggae, traditional, world and noise. I suggest this because while ambient music is very often minimalist it's not always experimental. Also, the current definition seems to say that ambient music draws element from every musical style listed in the opening paragraph, so I'd find it better to reword it so that it says it may incorporate elements from all these genres, like in the opening paragraph you proposed. That's my suggestion. Hawksun 01:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ambient music is neither exclusiuvely minimalist nor "experimental". Whoever came up with that nonsense clearly has no idea what they're talking about . In fact some genres of ambient can almost be classed as mainstream these days. The second option above is far more accurate. --Gene_poole 01:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

No personal attacks. My contributions are always welcome by Wikipedia community articles, yours are not. So please stop harrassing us. Brian W 02:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I note that numerous editors have raised concerns concerning the nature of your edits and your apparent non-compliance with various WP policies, including WP:Civil, WP:OR and WP:Vandalism. Please limit your comments here to the subject under discussion, refrain from personal attacks and ensure that your edits conform with the prevailing consensus. --Gene_poole 03:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Lost content?

Apparently, this article was hit by a subtle form of vandalism more than half a year ago:

1. First, an anon deletes the entire "Ambient electronic music" section.
2. Seconds later, another anon (but from the same IP subnetwork!) blanks the rest of the article.
3. It gets noticed and reverted, but only to the usual last contributor (which was a vandal as well)! As a result, the vandalism made in 1. didn't get reverted.

The article has now progressed since then, so recovering the info will require some careful merging, but the content is still missing. Misza13 ^{T C} 11:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I have recovered the data, changing only the header levels. This may require some cleanup though, as I didn't check for duplications. Misza13 ^{T C} 11:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Music Genres related articles

I have a question for music fans: are you aware that electronic music is not electronic dance music? Did you ever realize that no university in the USA regards electronic music and the music for dancing as the same genre? Are you aware that this is not a music magazine? Do you know the meaning of the term encyclopedic? Do you know the difference between idiomatic expressions, slang and encyclopedic (formal) language? Are you aware that most of articles claiming to deal with "electronic music subgenres" are unsourced or grounded only on independent websites?

I am trying to fix the linguistic inconsistency and lack of logic of such articles; some of my references are:

1) Browsing Music Spaces - Categories And The Musical Mind.

2) A Theory of Musical Genres - Two Applications (1980).

Thank you. Brian W 12:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This article should be deleted. It doesn't cite sources. The term ambient music means literally background music. I can't see any relation between the Eno era (twentyfive years ago!!!!!!) and the actual current ambient scene. I will watch it and propone its deletion unless you can prove that there is a real connection between Eno, New Age and the current scene. Artists such as Aphex Twin, and Boards of Canada (the real fathers of the current scene) never mentioned Eno or New Age as influential. Don't try to fool me even this time. Brian W

I no longer agree to license my contributions under the GFDL with regard to music-related topics. I'm cutting away the links that I put here. Please do not revert, thank you. Brian W 00:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

You have nothing to agree or disagree, once GFDL, forever GFDL, anyone can do with this text as he likes.

Shut your mouth, Cinderella, I might hire an attorney and file a legal issue against Wikipedia. U don't deserve our music. Brian W 00:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:LEGAL - threats of legal action are a bannable offence. Once you press "save page" you agree that your contributions are under the GFDL. You can't retroactively remove the licence grant once you've done it, nor can you continue to edit if you don't agree to it. --Kiand 12:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

My promise to you all is that I'll destroy both Google and Wikipedia in less than 5 years, unless you stop harrassing me. Brian W 12:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Would you care to explain what on earth thats meant to mean? Because it doesn't make any sense. --Kiand 12:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's try that again...

Given the recent litany of insanities imposed on this article by the late unlamented Brian W, I'm taking it upon myself, as a member of the House of Windsor, relative of the Rothschilds, card-carrying member of the Bilderberg Group and part-reptilian alien spawn, to revert it to the last version prior to his arrival. If anyone disagrees with this move please feel free to revert. --Gene_poole 04:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I reverted it again for now ;-) Reason:

Many of his edist are easy to revert; some anonymous IP has done so last week or so. So that's no problem.

There has already been a few reverts in this article. However , one problem: after Wilson's arrival, some other people have made large contributions and rearrangement to this article I believe, in good faith. I'm not really sure, but I thought the version I reverted to now contained some of those improvements; there are actual many references to modern styles that surely can't be Wilson's work :-) I believe there may still be too many wilson-stuff in this article , although I'm not sure, but I believe there's some work by other users we can't throw away like that. Note, I'm still nto really sure, we should really check the history very well, but I hope there's something that makes sense here and some contributions of other that are kept now, ... ;-) --LimoWreck 19:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This is what I meant: [11] Someone had already recovered content that was lost months ago after vandalism... So actually, we could indeed revert back the version before Wilson, like you did; but then try if the additions from [12] are worth reintegrating... --LimoWreck 19:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You should remove any reference to 1970s German Electronic music, to New age and to those artists that B. Wilson put here, such as Sylvian, Fripp, Summers, Hassell, Budd (who the hell are these guys, none is familiar with these names nowadays). Dating from early 1990s, the word Ambient is no longer used in the same context it was used before, therefore these different styles don't share any common background, but that Wilson simply wasn't able to understand this simple fact. Also, feel free to remove any contribution I put here, becouse, who knows, I could be just an alias of Mr Wilson's.--skysurfer 21:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I reverted to a revison edited by an anonimous user. I agree with Gene Poole, maybe this is the best revision at the present time, so please let's discuss and read it carefully, LimoWreck, before reverting!! cheers..--skysurfer 22:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I've re-reverted to the last version which seems to have any coherence to it. Looking at the version I reverted, the intro paragraph didn't actually define the genre, completely ignored its historical origins and rambled on about a whole pile of relatively recent artists and labels for no apparent reason. The remainder of the article was also completely silent on the historical development of the genre, and gave the impression that ambient music sprung into life fully-formed in the 1990s, which is just plain wrong. --Gene_poole 11:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the problem with that wilson guy was he tried to remove almost all "modern" music, he didn't seem to grasp the concept that musical genres evolve, and the meaning of a genre didn't evolve through the years... In the version before he arrived however it did seem like the music indeed sprung into life out of nothing... I believe Gene Pools edits have been quite balanced on gave justice to the historical backgrounds as well as the modern meaning of the genres, so I trust he's doing a good job here ;-) --LimoWreck 20:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

@Skysurfer: Budd, Fripp did work with Eno during he first 70s ambient related work on Eno's Ambient series of recordings. Allmusic.com Ambient music is a good indication for the genre during the last decades ;-) --LimoWreck 20:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Allmusic is a self referemced site, it doesn't cite sources. I discovered hundreds errors in it, mostly regarding discographies, years , cathegoryes, and so on. Do you know the music magazine Sound on Sound? It's a British magazine for professional musicians, but I should not need to tell that. Please look at Ambient Techno in Sound on Sound

and definitely realize that you are talking of Ambient Techno. This article deals with Ambient Techno and a bit of dark, organic and industrial as additional similar genres. You still can't stand that in the real world none would ever believe to the deliberate negation of truth that is here. Perhaps some of you can't stand the Ambient-New Age style for some reasons Please remember just that I will never believe to this pathetic theatre. I do not believe you. :P --skysurfer 20:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Look Wilson, this article is about Ambient... ALL ambient music; whatever that means for whoever may use the term... and Gene Pool is doing a good job it seems. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LimoWreck (talk • contribs).

Ambient is only a word, Ambient music, Ambient-New Age and Ambient-Techno are different terms each referring to a peculiar group of styles. Anyone that wants to contribute to any of these topics is welcome here, but please cite reputable sources, not just word of mouth. skysurfer 22:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

updated ambient music page

added information and background information on electronic space music. (DopplerMatt 23:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC))

Ambient film scores and "Notable filmmakers"

I'm probably going to remove, or at least modify, these two sentences:

"However, ambient music is noted for taking a less formulaic approach in its use in film and TV shows."

Statement is POV and uses weasel words. "Less formulaic" in who's opinion? "Noted" by whom exactly?

"David Lynch's 1984 film Dune, for example, forgoes the epic sci-fi adventure style theme music popularized by Star Wars in favor of a more effective and atmospheric music score by Toto and Brian Eno."

Same problem as the previous sentence, plus, it really strains the definition of ambient music. Certainly, Brian Eno's (brief) contribution to the Dune score is an ambient piece, but the pseudo-Wagnerian contributions from Toto? I'd say that's much closer to traditional film music than to ambient music. This is not a good example. Better examples might be Brian Eno's scores for Sebastiane and For All Mankind, or Michael Andrews scores for Donnie Darko and Me and You and Everyone We Know.

Is there any published work or anything on the web on the topic of ambient film scores? It would help to have a source to draw from so that we're not just doing a bunch of original research here.

Also, I posted about this months ago, but what about the list of "Notable filmmakers"? Exactly what this is doing in the article is never explained. There needs to be something in the text of the article discussing this topic and its relevance to the larger topic of ambient music and referring to the list. Otherwise, the list needs to be cut out of the article. Peter G Werner 18:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree the notable film-makers section seems a rather strange inclusion. The use of ambient music in Lynch's Dune is notable (at least for a Hollywood film) in my opinion - particularly "Paul Takes the Water of Life" by Toto. --Gene_poole 03:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Come on, Gene – would you honestly call most of the music used in the Dune score "ambient"? I'm not talking about talking about bits and pieces of the musical score (or some of the innovative uses of ambient sound by sound designer Alan Splet), but the majority of the score. If you're calling that ambient music, I think we're working from some very different definitions of "ambient music". I don't think most of that score can be called ambient (its closer to traditional film music, really), hence its really not a good example to give. Peter G Werner 18:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to clean up the section OR to try commenting this section; because at this moment it's completely unclear indeed what this table is doing there. It's just another section for anonymous editors to spam their favorite idol by the way at this moment.--LimoWreck 08:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reworked the table, changed a number of the entries, and retitled it "Notable films incorporating ambient music or sound design". It now makes a bit more sense as to why its in this article. I don't know how to reformat a table to make individual columns wider, even though the table kind of needs that. I will add a text section on "Ambient music in film" once I can settle this difference I have with Gene about whether the Dune score really is the best example one can give of use of ambient music in film. Peter G Werner 19:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

• One thing is certain: calling the Dune score "more effective" is definitely a point of view statement -- I have removed those words from the above sentence. Otherwise, I think a section on Ambient film music is a good idea, with plenty of other examples to work with (and better ones than Dune)... Popul Vuh's scores for Werner Herzog films for starters, and of course Brian Eno's many forays into TV and film soundtracks. Mysterious Skin by Harold Budd and Robin Guthrie is another recent example, and Mark Isham is worth exploring too...?Funks 12:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Ambient music = Space music?

The template states that ambient and space music are the same genre. I read the Space music article: there is no mention of this.--Dr. Who 00:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Spacemusic, such as it is, is really a subset of "ambient". --Gene_poole 00:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, it could be right the opposite, some music is both, and there is lot of space music that has no ambient attributes, that is it can't be ignored or thought to be used as backkground.--Dr. Who 00:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)-

I've just taken a look at the Space music article, and the definitions given there are highly irregular, and certainly not in accordance with generally accepted definitions of what ambient music is and is not. That article needs a major overhaul, which I hope to get around to in due course. --Gene_poole 00:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no commonly accepted definition of ambient music here. Saying that something is loosely defined is not a definition (it's tautologic-ally true). Furthermore, it seems that rave subculture's language believes to be the official English here. Anyway, I wish you a good work. I am sorry, but I am too busy in my life now, and I can't really contribute such articles. I wish that my contribs here in talk pages may be of some interests and use by other wikipedians. Thank you.Dr. Who 01:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

You tried this nonsense before under your previous nick, and it didn't work then, so please don't try it on again under your new one. Your bizarre vendetta against "rave culture" (whatever that is supposed to be) is tiresome and irrelevant. --Gene_poole 10:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Your accusations are non sense. What are your contributions to music? You just come here during last 2 years (I read the history of this article) putting here your non sense. Before I talked about Space Music here you didn't ever read that article. A really pathetic story.--Dr. Who 12:30, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I've been the producer of a nationally syndicated ambient music radio programme for nearly 20 years, so please don't insult me with incoherent POV babble on this subject. Nobody is interested in your strange personal opinions. They are unverified and unverifiable. --Gene_poole 13:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I see that you can't really understand this website, and maybe enciclopedic knowledge in general: if you are/were involved as a dj /record producer/radio manager, or something similar, your point of view is very far from neutrality. Dr. Who 13:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Space music and Ambient music, surely, are synonyms. As opposed to being antonyms. Given that fact, any argument which denies the very close, interchangeable relationship between the terms is ridiculous. Look at the list of notable "space" artists here, and "ambient" artists here. Weed out the nonsensical/inappropriate entries and you're still left with a core of music that shares "both" descriptions. My own neutral, non-POV opinion is that space music and classic (ie non-techno/rave) ambient can be seen as being one and the same. Any differences are merely cosmetic.
Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 19:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more with the assertion that "space music and classic (ie non-techno/rave) ambient can be seen as being one and the same. Any differences are merely cosmetic." "Space music" is a subset of ambient music (and some space music, for example Constance Demby's work, is often decidedly non-ambient. The two should be treated as related, but definitely not absolute synonyms. Peter G Werner 02:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, simple logic: "if some Space music is not Ambient, then Space music isn't a subset, of Ambient music", the opposite might be truse, that is "Ambient is a subset of Space music".--Dr. Who 11:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't argue with that. Not that I said they were "absolute synonyms" - I said they were "synonyms". I meant that, as you said, in the sense that they are related; that Space is a subset of Ambient (and therefore not antonymous). We can pick out pieces/albums from the artists concerned and poke holes in the ambient/spaceworthiness of the music till the cows come home - cosmetic differences mostly. But that's what makes it all fun. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 03:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I have come here making questions. I am not the pretentious guy here. I'm not the one that claims to be the only one that has the right to write the first lines of this article. Anyone can see that. If Ambient=Space, then I am right at saying that Ambient Techno has nothing to do with classic Ambient. My only purpose here is to contribute to artists' biographies and discographies. When I have to describe the kind of music of a given work, I have to use common terms, such as music genres, and I have sadly realized that almost all articles related to popular music genres are very badly written. I have no other aims or "agenda" here. I am not trying to revenge against anyone, I'm discussing only about proper terms. Dr. Who 19:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Erm ........ OK! Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 20:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Just so we're clear about what's going on here, I strongly suspect Dr. Who is a new incarnation of Brian W - who imploded some time ago as a result of what was apparently some sort of medically-diagnosed psychosis. I'm sure a checkuser request will confirm the relationship. They share the same bizarre POV (which includes a belief that "rave subculture" has somehow "taken over" ambient), the same aversion to providing references in support of their opinions, the same argumentative nature, the same irrational conviction that I'm evil and the same incoherent prose style which makes trying to interpret exactly what they're trying to say 90% of the time an exercise in intellectual masochism. Best to just ignore him and revert any of his changes. --Gene_poole 22:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The "Brian" character you mention was before my time, as it were - do you mean Brian_G._Wilson (I've just had a quick look through the histories)? Last post June 19, 2006, Dr. Who's first post June 22, 2006 ...... I wouldn't like to comment. Peculiar character, Dr. Who. Obviously, his first language isn't English, which makes it awkward for him to communicate (no offence to him). He just needs to relax. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 00:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Yep - Brian G Wilson = Brian W. Scroll up the page to be entertained by some of his more lucid contributions. Unfortunately someone deleted the spray he posted about the House of Windsor being a drug cartel full of giant lizards (or something) - that was the best thing I've read on Wiki in nearly half a decade. I'm pretty sure he/Dr Who is English - he's merely incapable of using it to communicate like the rest of us. Sky-surfer is probably another one of his socks. --Gene_poole 02:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

In the Space music talkpage he said he wasn't from the UK ..... who can say? (He knows about Doctor Who, mind). The "lizard" stuff - he's probably referring to the nutjob claims by British sports commentator-turned-celebrity-crackpot David Icke. See here. He's making a fortune out of books & lecture tours. Well done David, I say. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 02:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm familiar Icke's evil spacelizard fetish. But even he, as far as I know, doesn't accuse the British royals of being evil spacelizards AND of running the world's biggest drug cartel. That takes a very special kind of insanity. What I'd like to know is why is it always evil spacelizards? Why not evil spaceguineapigs or evil spacekittens? Enquiring minds want to know! --Gene_poole 03:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Can't say I can find any Icke references of Brenda and/or her family running dope. Sure, it's a liquid commodity these days, but she's already rich. There's no way I'm going to read his books to find out. Mind you, I'd pay good money to hear him do a new age album based on them. "Sonic landscapes that perfectly encapsulate a world secretly led by the evil reptiloid elite. This music will amaze and delight you. David plays all the instruments himself, including the evocative pan-pipes of Peru". Why spacelizards? Easy. It's because lizards are scarey, and lizardy - creatures to be spurned. Spaceguineapigs would be accepted by the populace, and revered. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 14:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Such personal attacks can't be tolerated. I never mentioned all those fantastic stories. I am not any of those users you mention, I read some of their past contributions and I see that there are a few similarities (like in most of cases), but a lot of differences.--Dr. Who 11:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please try to keep your comments relevant to the subject and coherent to native speakers of the English language. --Gene_poole 12:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an international site. This is Wikipedia in English, not for Americans, Brits and a few others.--Dr. Who 22:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

He reported us again, you know. Don't know if you noticed (at the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents). I think they're archived now, but the headings were:

• User reported at WP:COI/N has vandalized my talk page with personal attacks
• WP:HAR serious issue: Gene Poole and Gardener of Geda (again)
• WP:CIVissue at edit summary

Sad, and funny, at the same time. And there's a great quote from one of the moderators on the Ultima Thule COI case .... "There's something fairly messy going on here". His reply is classic. What a great guy he is. I really like him. Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 13:02, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Attacking my person and not my editions is not something that I would expect from someone with higher education.Dr. Who 22:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh no! Nooooooo! He's been and gone and done it again! Yes, he has!

• WP:HAR---WP:CIV---User:Gene_Poole---User:Gardener_of_Geda

. . . has been put in the noticeboard thingy! Gosh! That Dr. Who - what a strange guy! I have to say this - I don't like him very much. He's not nice. Not nice at all. Be seein' ya! Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 00:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Ambient and popular music

Hello, thank you for re-editing my sentences, I am aware that my English is not perfect. Please note that a few drone sounds that can be heard in "A Saucerful of Secrets" and "More" by Pink Floyd have connections with Ambient music. Anyway, within next weeks I am going to contact WP administrators and a few University experts regarding all these Electronic and ambient music related articles that are here. I understand that for young people below 25, Ambient is one of the music genres that can be listened in nightclubs, but I can ensure that it is not semantically correct. Ambient is mainly Brian Eno, Cluster and their followers in the New Age stream. Slang and young people ideologies are not suitable for encyclopedias. skysurfer 17:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't say as I agree with your narrow definition of ambient music, and in particular, I take issue with your inclusion of "New Age" music as an important ambient genre. "New age" is kind of a meaningless term embracing all manner of music that is in some way connected with "new age" spirituality. It includes some artists who are clearly ambient-influenced, but also includes soft acoustic music (along the lines of various Windham Hill artists), "quiet storm" jazz, bombastic orchestrated pop (for example, Yanni), and contemporary "middle of the road" instrumentals. New Age, if it can be called a genre at all, is clearly a hybrid genre, not a subgenre of ambient music.

I take also take issue with restricting the term ambient to 1970s artists like Brian Eno. The genre has grown a great deal since then, and the growth of such subgenres as ambient industrial/dark ambient (about which I've contributed several articles), ambient techno, and organic ambient over the last 25 years has been very important. I agree that much of what was called "ambient techno" in the 1990s really strained the definition of "ambient", much of it being essentially dance music - nonetheless, there is a core of techno artists who have been actively producing music over the last 25 years that could genuinely be considered "ambient".

Finally, I take some issue with overstating the influence of Pink Floyd on later ambient music - just because an album includes "a few drone sounds" doesn't make it an important influence on ambient. The influence of Pink Floyd on later ambient music is there, but to list every early Pink Floyd album as if it was a vital influence on ambient is simply overstating the case. I really think minimalist composers (such as Steve Reich and Terry Riley) and the more electronically-oriented krautrock bands (such as Popul Vuh, Cluster, and Tangerine Dream) are far more important influences. Peter G Werner 18:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with almost all of your comments here, but I question the use of the word "meaningless" to define New Age music, and I don't agree that all New Age music is conneted with "New Age spirituality," especially since many New Age artists go out of their way to separate themselves from that idea.

I don't mean to go off topic from Ambient, I just wanted to mention that point because we are discussing this same idea (including references to Ambient) on Talk: New Age music as that article is in the process of a major rewrite. Regarding the connection of New Age music with Ambient, I do agree with you that New Age music is a sort of hybrid genre, not quite a genre in itself since it overlaps so many other genres, and a significant are of those overlaps is with some Ambient music. Some New Age music is Ambient, and some Ambient music is New Age, neither is a sub-genre of the other.

It seems that both Ambient and New Age began to evolve around the same time - late 60's, early 70's - though New Age music was not named as a genre until later. There is no doubt that Enos' work made a big impact on some early New Age music pioneers and that his ideas and methods became integrated into some forms of New Age music.

There is also discussion about these relationships happening on Talk:Space music - that genre also seems to be a hybrid or umbrella and to include some of the Amibent music that also overlaps New Age music.

One more point about what differentiates Ambient from both New Age and Space music. Those other two genres each have a function of creating certain feelings. Spacemusic supposedly creates the feeling of spaciousness or moving through space (internal or external). New Age music creates feelings of comfort and positiveness (some say "spiritual," but I'd say that's a subset). Ambient on the other hand covers a wider spectrum of feelings. While some Ambient music is spacious or comfortable, Ambient can also be dark, strange, challenging, even spooky, or it can be somewhat neutral and environmental like the early Eno works. And of course later, Ambient expanded or branched off to include music that in some ways is not so Ambient yet still keeps some of it's characteristics - for example Ambient Dub has beats and some vocals so it's not obvious that it's Ambient - but then again, it works just fine as an ambient background that can be tuned in or out at will (as it does not have linear songs and melodies intruding into one's awareness) so it can be seen as part of the Ambient lineage while not being purely Ambient. These points can also apply to the many other descendents of Ambient as you mentioned.

Well, I started to reply with a short comment and then rambled a bit, but I think these are useful thoughts. It's interesting that so many articles about these related but different genres are wrestling with these ideas of how the genres interconnect... Parzival418 21:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Genre?

Who says that ambient music is a music genre? Brian Eno? Then we should make the Discreet Music article and so on. Isn't it original research? Could it be that Ambient is just a functional definition of a musical form, just like background music and incidental music? --Dr. Who 00:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Are you saying ambient is not a musical idiom? Do you have some sources to support such a bizarre assertion? --Gene_poole 00:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

1) Please note that I am questioning. Wikipedia should prove that this definition of Ambient is really commonly accepted. I think that the so called Ambient music works are just minimalistic music with, in some cases, ambience, soundscapes and new age / cosmic / space music.

2) A music idiom is not necessarily a music genre

3) For example, Symphony is a music form and not a music genre.

--Dr. Who 01:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Techno and ambience soundscapes

It seems that rave subculture's slang is ending up to become the dominant language in Wikipedia. New Age/ambient/space sounds had a remarkable influence on early 1990s' (mostly British) techno musicians/producers/djs, which self addressed themselves as belonging to the "ambient movement (or scene)" (I have a reference on this). Many songs were just beatless ambience/space electronic (pop) music, most were techno, jungle (d n b) or dub with ambience moods and atmospheres. All this does not mean that Ambient music is a metagenre of the Ambient/Techno scene, or that such music scene is a music subgenre of the so called Ambient music--Dr. Who 00:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I like this way of looking at it. The relationships between music genres is complicated - it's not linear, it's not like a family tree with parents and kids, siblings, cousins, etc.. There are more dimensions in music. I'd say it's more like set theory or topology, which is why so many widely differing forms and feelings can all somehow be connected.

For example, what is in common between this wide-ranging list of genres? Ambient, New Age, Space music, Techno, Industrial, Trance, Goa, Jungle, Ambient Dub...  ? Some elements of those genres could not be more different. But I think I can find something in common - they all create a feeling or sensation of some kind of trance or altered state experience. (I'm not referring to drug use. There is that too with some fans, but the drugs are not required to create the sensation if a person is willing to go along with the hypnotic elements of the music).

I'm not saying at all that Industrial is a form of New Age music (now, there's a thought!), but isn't it interesting that they can somehow have something in common that is not shared for example by Pop music and Industrial, or Hip Hop and Ambient?

Here's another example: New Age music and Gothic music have in common that while one specializes in "light" and the other in "dark", they both like to approach "beauty" in some way. Then Gothic with it's darkness can connect with the darkness of Industrial, yet they do not seem to share their way of appreciating "beauty", though they both could be considered "fun" by their fans.

Even long ago it was not simple, and now it's more complex. Take for example - American Folk Music. That's a big subejct. Much of that music descends from English, Scottish and Irish folk music, but of course in America influences come from everywhere so there is all sorts of other stuff too. If you forget about the words though and listen to bluegrass, then listen to East Europe gypsy music, or Irish Jigs, they all have in common certain characteristics that show clear descendence and trace the historical movement of the peoples.

But now, with instant worldwide connection, we've moved beyond the family model for relating genres.Parzival418 22:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

by the way, Ambient music is also being mentioned here:

• Talk: New Age music -that article is in the process of a major rewrite.
• Talk:Space music - plenty of different perspectives being discussed there too!

Parzival418 22:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the use of sockpuppets to falsely create the impression of consensus may result in accounts being blocked. --Gene_poole 23:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Gene, why are you adding this comment here? What action have I taken that would lead you to believe I might be a sock puppet? I am new to editing Wikipedia - only for around two weeks so far. Please look at my contributions list and I'm sure you will see that I have been writing sincerely and carefully. In this particular situation, I happened to agree with the previous editor I was replying to in that particular comment. That doesn't imply I am a sockpuppet. Isn't the point of Wikipediea to edit by consensus? If we can't have consensus because someone who agrees is immediately accused of being a sockpuppet, how can any progress happen?

If there is something about what I've written that bothers you, please let me know specifically what that is and let's discuss it.

Parzival418 01:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

New Vocabulary for Relating Music Genres

It seems to me we need a new vocabulary for discussing musical genres. We need a multidimensional model. Dr. Who used the word "metagenres" - that's a cool idea - I've never seen that word before. I've used the term umbrella genres, but I like meta-genre better.

Even beyond that though, we need more dimensions as I mentioned in my prior comment above:

The relationships between music genres is complicated - it's not linear, it's not like a family tree with parents and kids, siblings, cousins, etc.. There are more dimensions in music. I'd say it's more like set theory or topology, which is why so many widely differing forms and feelings can all somehow be connected.

If we think of each musical genre as a mathematical set, we could make descriptions that show inclusion and exclusion, or intersections and unions.

For example:

• Ambient ≠ Space music
• Ambient ≠ New Age
• Space music ≠ New Age

However...

• Some Ambient is Space music
• Some Ambient is New Age
• Some New Age is Ambient
• Some Space Music is New Age

etc...

I haven't this thought through yet, it's just a forming idea. Maybe this should be moved to... Talk:Music genre

Parzival418 22:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Musicology

Brian Eno didn't invent a genre, as someone states above. --Dr. Who 01:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I am a listener and a "fan" of everything I mentioned, so none should suspect that I am not neutral.--Dr. Who 00:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I mean that, as of February 2007, I have no business-related interests with this topic. I just love musicology.--Dr. Who 11:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Some clarification

As I told before, I'm too busy to come here and edit, I'm not interested, I never edited here (I added one link some months ago), and for sure I will not do in a near future. Dr. Who 00:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That's the fifth heading you've added to this talk page in as many days. All on the same subject. For someone who is constantly stating that you're too "busy" and "not interested", you've got to admit that something's obviously, erm, not quite right. Are you OK?! Gardener of Geda | Message Me.... 00:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Making questions in order to improve an article sounds so strange? I did just that here, no vandalism, no revert wars, no unverifiable claims.--Dr. Who 11:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

More enciclopedic tone. Dr. Who 23:02, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Spam

Every user is invited to remove spamming, self-promoting links and entries, see WP:AUTO, WP:COI, WP:SPAM. Thank you.Dr. Who 12:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Space Music is related to, but not the same as, Ambient Music

Today I changed this:

Space music is a thematic ambient music which focuses on, as the name would suggest, space, but also delves into psychological and spiritual themes as well.[13]

to this:

Space music has many characteristics in common with Ambient music, while not strictly a sub-genre. Space music focuses on, as the name would suggest, space, but also delves into psychological and spiritual themes as well.[14]

Gene immediately reverted my edit with the comment that it was an "unreferenced opinion". I restored the changed text tonight for good reasons as I will discuss here. Then, while I was writing this explanation, Gene reverted my edit again. So now, I am going to restore my new edit, but this time I will add an additional reference, and I will support my edit with discussion here.

Gene - I ask that if you revert my edit again, please discuss your action on this page and provide references for your viewpoint. If you use "unreferenced" as a reason for changing my edits, then surely, you must have references to support your changes. Please provide us with your references.

The modified version is not any more or less "unreferenced" than the prior version, but now since you asked for references, I added a new one. Gene, while you may believe space music is a sub-genre of ambient, after reading your extensive comments about this on the various talk pages, I am not convinced that your approach is NPOV. Probably there is more than one valid POV on this subject, in which case we should explorre them all in the main article. But I don't see how we can completely limit space music to being a subset of ambient, or a synonym for ambient, when there are published examples of more than one person showing music that is space music but is not ambient.

For one thing, the citation that was already in the version you reverted to and that you retained actually contains several comments that opose your position. I am referring to this page: [15]. There we find these interesting comments that directly support my edit while directly opposing your position:

we are now seeing an overlapping of definitions as well. some space music can be called ambient. some droning guitar rock can be called ambient. some trance techno can be called ambient. where, then, can one draw some boundaries in an attempt to describe the state of ambient music as it exists today?

these forerunners of the ambient house movement were more or less accepted by the average stadium rock fan; it was not unusual to hear a Tangerine Dream instrumental space opus sandwiched between tracks by Yes, Emerson Lake & Palmer, or Genesis on prog rock radio of yesteryear. Tangerine Dream is by far the most famous of the electronic rockers. From 1973 to around 1986 they created textural soundscapes with the most advanced synthesizers and effects of the day, much of it customized for their rich timbral explorations.

Space Music This sub-genre of electronic rock doesn't see that much action, but fans of space music usually can't get enough of it. Space music is hard to describe. It tends to be repetitive and lengthy, built in gradually multiplying layers, very electronic yet not entirely 'thick' or inorganic. Once you hear a few examples, you'll figure it out. Klaus Schulze, who was briefly in Tangerine Dream before they were using synthesizers, is the most famous space musician.

To be sure, that particular reference is not the be-all authority on this. But it is a valid source and it is one that you chose to retain, even while you reverted my edit.

Here is another valid source, which I have added to the article: [16]. I know you don't respect Stephen Hill, but a large audience does, and he is part of history even if you disagree with him. His program is even listed in the articlle in the following paragraph. So if those statements are valid, his comments here also desrved to be cited:

Pink Floyd launched the first space probe in 1967 with "Interstellar Overdrive," an acid-drenched freakout framed by power-chord booster rockets. They inspired a legion of musicians to go beyond rock's four on the floor, verse-chorus-verse-guitar-solo-verse-chorus-goodbye structure. Among the first, and arguably the best to bring that psychedelic ethos into the electronic age was Tangerine Dream. While their 1970 debut, Electronic Meditation, sounded like Karlheinz Stockhausen meeting the Grateful Dead, their later albums essayed the sound that would be the template of space music.

If you are going to revert my edit again by saying it is unreferenced, please provide references supporting your POV that space music is a sub-genre of ambient (or is identical to it).

Thank you for collaborating on this interesting article.

Parzival418 08:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop claiming that quoted references support your POV when in fact they do nothing of the sort. This business of inserting your POV into articles is getting beyond bizarre, and your actions are skirting close to outright vandalism. If you continue you will be reported. --Gene_poole 09:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Gene, the fact the my POV is not the same as yours does not make me wrong and you right. I am editing in good faith, I just happen to see things differently than you do - and I supported my comments with references. This is now the third time you've responded to a good faith edit with a personal attack. I'm not going to respond emotionally to your actions. I am here only to improve the articles. Everyone who reviews our communications will easily see that my work has been sincere. Parzival418 09:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

References

Please note that this does not qualify as a reliable reference source as defined in WP:V. It appears to be the personal opinion of a music fan dating from 13 years ago. It is not an authoritative source. --Gene_poole 00:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Reference in Madagascar(2005) Animated Film

Getting ready to sleep, Alex the lion says "They forgot to turn off the ambience again". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.43.213.162 (talk) 03:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

links for self promotion should not to be included in encyclopedic content

Asmadeus, I agree with your removal of the self-promotional links. But one of the ones you removed seems to be a valid reference for the article. I'm referring to this one: Ambient Music Guide I took a look at that website and found it very interesting. It's not selling anything as far as I can tell and seems to be an extensive guide maintained by a devoted fan of the genre. The site includes some strong articles about the history of ambient sound and music, for example here and here as well as extended discographies and album reviews.
So, for now I am restoring this one link in that section. If you don't agree and decide to delete it again, I'd appreciate it if you would explain your thoughts here. Thanks Parzival418 23:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem - sounds good to me -asmadeus 05:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Can someone please identify/label this style of ambient music for me?

I used to listen to a college station late at night and the stuff they played was mostly noise like people around you in a busy late night diner, then a lot of delayed and echoed noise with people talking, then there was traffic noise mixed with all sorts of layered "daily noise". What exactly is this style called, and what bands can I look to for this style? Thank you! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.5.21.7 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 15 April 2007.

It seems that you are talking about musique concrete or background-incidental music, that are musiccal forms strictly related to ambient music (before the rave age crap).Doktor Who 10:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

software for creating ambient sound

This was removed in the main article as a section. It's not about the ambient music genre so it does not belong in this article and was removed.

It could be an interesting separate article if someone wants to start it - or maybe there already is an article like that.

Here are the links I removed, in case you want to use them to start the new article:

• fLOW: ambient soundscape generator
• SEELEWASCHEN: ambient sound environment

This one was in external links:

• Sound Borb Ambient Music and Sound Generator

--Parsifal Hello

thank you parsifal for this useful information.:-) Doktor Who 10:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Paradoxes and hoaxes

This article is full of paradoxes, musicological non-senses, hoaxes; it has been mostly edited by trolls and some good faith editors having no academic background in musicology. A background in music technology, or a professional affiliation and expertize with the media (radio, zines, websites) HAS NOTHING to do with musicology and academic-reliable methods to deal with this topic.Doktor Who 10:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ultima Thule Ambient Music

I have restored the link to the article on the abovenamed ambient radio show, which was blanked without explanation by Doktor Who. UT (which I co-produce) has been produced for nearly 19 years, is broadcast on major radio stations in 3 major Australian cities every week, and is downloaded by tens of thousands of listeners via iTunes every month - including other WP editors who have contributed to the above article. These facts are easily verifiable in numerous reliable third party sources, including high circulation newspapers in Australia and the UK (specifically the Sydney Morning Herald and The Independent), the websites of the radio stations that carry the show, the iTunes portal, the UT website, and numerous other online sources. If anyone believes it should not be listed in this article, please provide sources demonstrating that the above is untrue before attempting to remove the link again. --Gene_poole 15:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Varese

I remove the reference to Edgard Varèse from the history section. First of all, he used theremin only in one piece (Ecuatorial), not "extensively". And none of his works can considered ambient, in my opinion. -- DaveSeidel 13:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Use in the movies

I think that much more useful than a list of "notable films that include ambient music" would be a piece on the history. To my mind, ambient music is incredibly common in movies now, and it would be great if someone could find a piece to reference that tracks its increased use over time (if I'm right about this). It's not just certain filmmakers who employ composers who have been branded as ambient; I'm talking about the pervasive use of this kind of score, and especially in certain kinds of scenes. Tempshill (talk) 15:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Definition of ambient

I think the opening definition needs some reworking. Ambient is more than just music in which sounds is more important than notes, because that would make it the same as noise music. I would just go ahead and edit it myself, but I can't think of a better definition. It's not always either background of foreground music. What else could we put in? 68.145.228.129 (talk) 02:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the definition, as described by the 2 opening sentences, is entirely acceptable, and about as broadly accurate as its possible to be. The second sentence clearly qualifies the first - ie ambient is music where sound is more important than notes, and which is typically atmospheric or environmental in nature. Both statements are supported by reliable cited third party sources, and I don't see that either is controversial in any way. --Gene_poole (talk) 03:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

TAGS

Many unsourced POV assertions, see WP:NPOV. Lacking citations for many assertions, see WP:VERIFY. As a result of the preceeding issues article subject to WP:OR status. Potentially a very informative article if the sourcing issues are addressed. Currently expresses many views which are unverified. Do not assume readers have prior specialist knowledge of the subject area. Many mischaracterizations contained within, for example: stating that Brian Eno was influenced by Miles Davis does not mean it is then accurate to characterise In a Silent Way as ambient music. Also, there is a list entitled Notable musicians and works in chronological order, and a sub-heading stating influential works. This is confusing. A list of known, and verified, ambient musicians/composers would be acceptable, as would a list musicians/composers who are known, verifiably, to have influenced ambient music.Semitransgenic (talk) 15:56, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Article's quality

The article's quality showcases a remarkable improvement in last 8 months, I fully agree with the definition now, thanks to you all contributors.--Doktor Who (talk) 12:30, 8 June 2009 (UTC)