Talk:Harpsichord

Should we use material from the French Wikipedia?

If anyone can translate French to English, there is an excellent (huge) featured article on the French wikipedia which could usefully be translated to English in its entirety. The Italian one, while featured, is nowhere near as comprehensive as the French.

there are 2 copyright free harpsichord images on the french Wiki 212.234.182.154 15:53, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Harpsichord music

You might like to mention that the Harpsichord also gained some popularity in light Jazz music during the 60s, particularly in Britain. For example the theme tunes to the Avengers and Danger Man AKA Secret Agent TV programs from the 60s both feature Harpsichords. Also Lalo Shifrin sometimes featured harpsichords in his jazz recordings during the 60s.

Another influence from the 60's, at least for me, was the TV version of The Addams Family, wherein Lurch, the butler, was often seen to unwind by playing the harpsichord. I started a lifelong interest in this instrument because of this show. While this fact seems much too frivolous to put on the main page of this well done article, it is nice to be able to note it here in case it sparks the memory of other wikiuser of my age.MarnetteD | Talk 16:10, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How about talk of harpsichord music today? I know I have heard use of harpsichord in songs by Tori Amos and Suzanne Vega -- but this is certainly not in the style most associate with the harpsichord. Perhaps this is of significance, perhaps not. --Jacqui M Schedler 04:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

The article is about the instrument, not any particular style of music. Please add a line or two about it if you'd like to. It's always nice to have some connection to modern popular music.

Peter ^Isotalo 07:47, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

My listening skills when it comes to the harpsichord are not their best, but can anyone confirm that a harpsichord is used in the Massive Attack song Teardrop? Bennity 23:25, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

It is, but very likely a sampled harpsichord. The chords are piano, but there's a little melody played on harpsi that plays throughout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.76.207 (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

No More Modern References!!!

"In addition, the silver and small screen composer, Danny Elfman, often uses harpsichord in jazz and classic pieces in his composition, such as the soundtrack for Tim Burton's Corpse Bride which uses both genres."

It says classical. Start a new category for soundtracks if you want. Don't put modern references where it says classical!!! Why is it on Wikipedia there must be modern references for everything!!!

Certainly - harpsichord usage in a modern context is almost always by people who are using it simply as a sound effect or as a cheap way to create a centuries-old feel. This is a very musically insignificant area and only deserves a sentence or two of comment. In pop music it is just the harpsichord sound from an electronic keyboard and should be identified as such if it has to be mentioned at all. Perhaps just a little section on the occasional use of the harpsichord 'sound' in the regular musical context of pop music/jazz or whatever style. I certainly feel this topic belongs more in an article about the effects available by the player of an electronic keyboard - after all, using a midi violin sound would hardly constitute creating violin music, would it?

Re the name "virginal"

This is a short quote from the Discworld book "The Truth" by Terry Pratchett:

'Your friend Mr Tulip would perhaps like part of your payment to be the harpsichord?' said the chair.

'It's not a --ing harpsichord, it's a --ing virginal,' growled Mr Tulip. 'One --ing string to a note instead of two! So called because it was an instrument for --ing young ladies!'

'My word, was it?' said one of the chairs. 'I thought it was just a sort of early piano!'

'Intended to be played by young ladies,' said Mr Pin smoothly. '

While, of course, no authority on the subject, do you feel there might be something to this idea? Daniel Lindsäth 13:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Virginals are small harpsichords with their strings parallel to the keyboard. Having one string to a note is not a feature unique to virginals: many harpsichords only have one string to a note. As for whether they were intended to be played by young ladies, the answer is simply, no. They were small and suitable for home use so probably were played by young ladies a lot, but certainly not only by them, and that is not how they got their name.

hahahahahaha this is great! 169.233.52.4 03:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The singular term 'virginal' is incorrect. Like 'trousers', a single instrument of this type should be referred to as a 'virginals', as in a 'pair of virginals', which was the Elizabethan way of referring to both the instrument and its outer case.

Cembalo traverso and Cembalo verticale

At Wikipedia:Music encyclopedia topics/7, it lists Cembalo traverso and Cembalo verticale, which I figure are probably types of harpsichords, possibly mentioned here but not under those names. (Or they might be other instruments; I'm not familiar with the terms). Can somebody identify them and, if appropriate, use the names here, so they can be linked? Rigadoun 19:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

This vertical harpsichord is a Clavicytherium (page on de: and fr: ) You can see such an instrument at [1] Gérard 17:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC) - At Wikipedia:Music encyclopedia topics/9, it lists Clavecin vertical which is the same.

The New Grove tells us that "cembalo traverso" is an Italian term for "spinet." I'll try to put these in soon if no one else does first. Opus33 05:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Nice SVG graphics

The french version of this article has very nice SVG versions of the diagrams. Would it be an idea to transfer these over to the english article ?

Not derived from the cymbalum

I'm moved this passage to the talk page:

In most European languages, the word for "harpsichord" is some variation of clavicembalo (Latin clavis "key" + cymbalum, an instrument similar to the psaltery). This word is also occasionally used in English, sometimes in the form clavicymbal or clavisymbal.

If you look at cymbalum, you'll find it says that it is a folk instrument of Eastern Europe. I have never seen it said anywhere that the harpsichord originates from the cymbalum, and I'd be very reluctant to put this in the Wikipedia without citing a reference source.

This edit, by Keenan Pepper, apparently derives from a wish to delete a former stub article on clavicembalo that merely defined what it is and redirected to harpsichord. But my impression is that clavicembalo is virtually never used in English. We don't normally provide a list of foreign synonyms (i.e. we don't include "pomme" in Apple or "uva" in Grape)), so it's not clear we should be discussing it at all.

I would also suggest that any further editing on this point be preceded by consultation of reference sources.

Opus33 17:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)\

My dictionary says that cembalo is derived from 'cymbalum (latin) from 'kymbalon (greek) from 'kymbe: ("container"). The harpsichord may well be derived from the cymbalum as it was an antique instrument, made as a container with strings attached to it. The strings were plucked by fingers. The instrument is depicted on several medieval paintings. See http://baptitou.free.fr/Estella/cymbalum/Index.htm . The folk instrument and the harpsichord have probably nothing in common, except that they both are derived from the medieval cymbalum. 80.164.17.212 22:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC) E Kristiansen

Use in popular music

I added a brief note on the harpsichord's recent use by session musicuan Larry Knetchel. As Peter Isotalo said above, "It's always nice to have some connection to modern popular music." Since millions of people were introduced to the harpsichord by Knetchel's work, I would appreciate it if my reference to him were not vandalized again. Cranston Lamont 05:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Poor old italians?

The article gives the impression that Italian harpsi's went nowhere, either historically or musically after the Renaissance - can this be right? And as for being 'considered pleasing but unspectacular' ... by who, please, and why should we take that opinion seriously? Was Frescobaldi chopped liver?

While it reads nicely to have a grand narrative of the 'development' of the harpsichord moving from Italy to Flanders to France and England, this is obtained at the cost of throwing away at least three-quarters of history, for example what happened in the Netherlands after Ruckers, or in France before the ravalements happened, or in Spain or Germany at any point at all ;-)

... and what's with Baroque harpsichord composers being numerous in "Italy, Germany and, above all, France"? Has anyone counted 'em? --Tdent 16:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello Tdent, I wrote this long ago and herely list my source. It's Frank Hubbard (cited in article) who says those things about Italian harpsichords; I don't think he meant to imply that Frescobaldi was chopped liver. The "grand narrative" comes straight out of the chapter organization of Hubbard's book, though the original is more nuanced than the summary.

For work on more advanced Italian harpsichords, I have found the papers by Grant O'Brien to be very intriguing: http://www.claviantica.com/.

It's clear that we need more than just the outline history we have now, and I hope there are people with professional level expertise who can take this on. I am just a Hubbard fan/channeler.

Whatever gets changed, however, will involve major organizational problems, keep all those traditions straight. I believe that daughter articles linked from the main article would be the best approach. Cheers, Opus33 17:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Cembalo's edits

I'm quite concerned with the edits that Cembalo has been putting in this article. I judge that they are very much in violation of the policy posted at Wikipedia:NPOV, and also that since they are not including any reference sources, they violate Wikipedia:Verifiability. Opus33 23:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Edits revised

My contributions to the German harpsichord section have now been revised, both to be in compliance with a neutral point of view and to be verifiable. The stipulation regarding the presence of a German harpsichord design in Frank Hubbard's book can be verified easily. It is more difficult to trace the entire output of Hubbard, Dowd, and their followers, but the stipulation that this group of builders made few German-style harpsichords seems hardly in question. I would doubt that anyone would seriously dispute that assertion. The stipulations regarding the increasing use of harpsichords of German Baroque design by leading harpsichordists (Staier, Hill, Parmentier, and others) can be verified by looking at the World's Encyclopedia of Recorded Music, Supplement. I would argue that these performers are "leading" on the basis of the prominent lables for which they record, the extent of their record sales, and their importance in discussions of new directions in harpsichord performance in the major trade magazines (Goldberg, Early Music, etc.).

Images

Hello, Why replace those images? I thought the ones we already had were clearer. Opus33 16:12, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Controlling multiple choirs of strings

In this section there is a nice drawing of the push coupler system as featured by french and english harpsichords. Unfortunately the french system is to push in the upper manual, not draw the lower manual (I have heard about the latter but never seen it). Also the registers are in the wrong order, should be: a=8, b=4, and c=8.

As to the image: it is a modern instrument, which is not a correct historical copy (Zuckermann kit?). I think the article should be accompanied by a picture of a historical instrument too.

80.164.17.212 22:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC) E. Kristiansen

Moving history out

Hello, anticipating growth in the history section, I have made it a separate article and inserted a brief summary with link to main article. This is a bit tricky, since in my experience it's hard to keep the summary section short. I will try to transfer detail edits on history to the satellite article, with the goal of a short summary in mind. If this strikes you as not good strategy please discuss and we can consider going back. Opus33 15:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Modern usage (again).

This is a quote from the above "No More Modern References!!!" section, that I decided to respond to in a new section:

Certainly - harpsichord usage in a modern context is almost always by people who are using it simply as a sound effect or as a cheap way to create a centuries-old feel. This is a very musically insignificant area and only deserves a sentence or two of comment. In pop music it is just the harpsichord sound from an electronic keyboard and should be identified as such if it has to be mentioned at all. Perhaps just a little section on the occasional use of the harpsichord 'sound' in the regular musical context of pop music/jazz or whatever style. I certainly feel this topic belongs more in an article about the effects available by the player of an electronic keyboard - after all, using a midi violin sound would hardly constitute creating violin music, would it?

Actually there are several contemporary artists who have used real harpsichords in their music. Kate Bush did on the song “Oh, England, my Lionheart”, Björk used it for live performances, MTV Unplugged, among others, where it was played by Guy Sigsworth. The most notable is probably Tori Amos who played it herself and who used it extensively on "Boys for Pele" and the following tour (she also included it for her MTV Unplugged performance). Joanna Newsom and Isobel Campbell have also played the harpsichord (and not keyboards). With the possible exception of the Kate Bush song I don't think the instrument was used to create an old-fashioned effect, it was played as an instrument in its own right (and usually as the song's main instrument), giving its own flavour to pieces of modern music or used to rework pop-songs acoustically.

I think the statement that it is a musically insignificant area and that all harpsichord sounds in pop music are produced by keyboards and then only to create an effect is extremely vitriolic and uninformed, verging on offensive. I get the impression the (unidentified) poster seems to think all of pop music is “an insignificant area”. I feel that a moderately sized section on the use of (real) harpsichords in popular music would be useful for those people consulting Wikipedia who never listen to classical music (and I’m sure there are plenty of those) and who, through modern references, can still be able to get a notion of what it sounds like.

If there is a section on its use in classical music, by both older and contemporary composers, why not one on popular music? It just seems that some people editing this article have decided, based on their own personal likes and dislikes, that pop music is not good enough to be included when in reality there are many artists who have written pop music directly for the harpsichord, music that is just as valid as Poulenc's or de Falla's. Nothingbutmeat 13:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello NBM,

We did have an article with thorough coverage of the harpsichord in popular music. It was recently proposed for deletion ([2]), and the proposal succeeded, so it is now permanently gone.

I suspect that any future article on the harpsichord in popular music will have to be based on printed reference sources, rather than (as the old article was) the aggregated personal testimony of people who listen to popular music. Maybe you know some good sources? Opus33 15:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello Opus33, thank you for the speedy reply,

I know there was such an article, it's a shame that it was deleted although I understand perfectly the motives for its removal. I wish I could have been part of the debate prior to the deletion; I still feel that this information has its place in the article alongside the other information on composers of harpsichord music. I fail to see why there should be a distinction where one type is considered relevant (and consequently included in the article) and the other is not.

As for the form of the article I can see how it didn't meet the Wikipedia standards, but surely that could have been resolved in a less drastic way. As for sources I would expect major dictionaries of pop music to carry such information either in entries on each individual artist or perhaps as a separate entry. Furthermore, the liner notes on album sleeves usually reveal if a harpsichord is played (as opposed to a keyboard). I am not 100% sure that counts as evidence on Wikipedia but I would imagine so (please, correct me if I'm wrong!). There is also interviews with artists talking about playing the harpsichord, if that's not a primary source I don't know what is.

So, the article could have been reworked instead of deleted but I suppose there is no point in arguing about that now. The question is: would a new article of higher quality be accepted or is there still some underlying resistance to including information about this use of the harpsichord? Nothingbutmeat 16:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello NBM, Re. "underlying resistance": well, I personally like classical music better than I like popular music, but that's hardly a criterion for deciding what goes into an encyclopedia. The more important criterion is that whatever we put in be based on authentic reference sources, prepared by professional scholars. (There are such scholars for popular music; see e.g. Robert Walser).

The main reason the old article got deleted was that it was filled with bits like "[fill in name of favorite band here] used a harpsichord in [fill in name of favorite song]". I agree with the deletors that it was bad to have that sort of stuff; it's not scholarly or reliable.

So my two suggestions are (a) visit your local library and grab a good book; (b) cite what you find in the text, using WP format: <ref>citation here</ref>. This will make it show up at the end as a footnote. My experience is that stuff done with this level of care does not get deleted. Cheers, Opus33 17:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I also agree that the form of the deleted article i.e "[fill in name of favorite band here] used a harpsichord in [fill in name of favorite song]", was in no way ideal, I'm simply saying that I feel that a section on pop compositions for harpsichord is not entirely irrelevant in an article about the harpsichord and harpsichord music. Whether anyone likes the music or prefers classical to pop or vice versa is, as you say, not a valid criterion for deciding what goes in. Nothingbutmeat 17:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

What is Figure 1, item 13?

A recent anonymous editor said that the thing labeled 13 in Figure 1 is a four-foot hitchpin rail, and that this is an error, since the instrument (according to the anon's view) must be a 2 x 8' instrument.

I'm out of my depth here, and wonder if people with more harpsichord expertise can help. Here are my questions.

1) Why is the instrument necessarily a 2 x 8' instrument? Instruments with the disposition 1 x 8', 1 x 4' were built in the historical era.

2) Why is #13 supposed to be a hitchpin rail? I would assume that any structural member strong enough to support a choir of strings would have to extend down to the bottom of the case; 13 looks pretty flimsy in comparison.

On the other hand, the only other likely possibility for #13 that I can think of is that it is a soundboard rib. Yet Hubbard and other people I've read are pretty emphatic that it's a bad idea to put a rib directly under the bridge, which is where #13 is located.

So if anyone can offer a positive identification of #13, I think it would help our article.

In the long run, I would like to replace Figure 1 with a simpler figure, depicting a single-choired instrument. This would be the best introduction for beginners, and we do cover multi-choired instruments later on. Opus33 16:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You are right about the error. I have already commented on that on the french wiki. As to your questions:

1) A 2x8 instrument is regarded as a simpler instrument than one with 1x8 and 1x4. Historically the 1x8+1x4 is older. Almost all early italian had this disposition.

2) #13 must be a malplaced 4' hitchpin rail. This is a rail that extends from the cheek to the spine, and to which the soundboard is glued. The hitchpin passes between the 4' and 8' bridges. If it passed just under the bridge it would render the soundboard immobile. The hitchpin rail is "flimsy" and does not extend down to the bottom or connect to any other structural member. In some italian harpsichords there is *no* 4' hitchpin rail - rather the hitchpins are just fixed in the soundboard with a drop of glue!

Ribs sometimes cross the bridges (on some italians), but they are usually undercut where they pass the bridge to ensure the flexibility of the bridge (and soundboard).

On the french wiki #13 is called "boudin" which is hitchpin rail.

Maybe the best way to show the structure is a 3D view of an early italian harpsichord?

Erik Kristiansen 80.164.17.212 19:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Incubus.

Removed this line from the popular music section: "Rock band Incubus uses a harpsichord for their song Aqueous Transmission on the 2001 album Morning View." The Aqueous Transmission page mentions the Chinese instrument pipa being used so it would seem the person who added the sentence mistook it for a harpsichord. I also suppose that this is the kind of information that is considered irrelevant. Nothingbutmeat 15:43, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Shove coupler

Figure 4 is meant to show the french shove coupler. I have never seen a french (or any other historical) harpsichord where you draw the lower manual to engage the upper manual. Rather the upper manual is pushed to engage the dogs on the lower manual. Do anybody know a harpsichord with a draw coupler? Anyway the figure should be corrected, as the push-system is the typical featured coupler system. E. Kristiansen 80.164.17.212 20:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello, EK, Hubbard (1965) says both kinds existed, but the shove coupler was was more common. You're right, we should change the figure and I hope a person with the right expertise will take it on. Opus33 21:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Quote

don't get me wrong, i love the harpsichord. but, does anyone know who it was said the harpsichord sounded like ' two skeletons copulating on a tin roof'?Toyokuni3 (talk) 14:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. I think it was Thomas Beecham. --RobertG ♬ talk 15:03, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

A Google search certainly supports the idea that it was Sir Beecham. But it also introduces doubt as to the exact wording and as to whether he was the first to say it. Willi Gers07 (talk) 20:55, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a reference to this in The Collector. A woman who irritates the artist GP is viciously put in her place when she brings up the quote. First, the instrument being played on the record at the time was not, in fact, a harpsichord. Second, GP was no fan of Beecham. PDAWSON3 (talk) 01:24, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Merge

I wonder whether "contemporary harpsichord" is a term in general use? (Googling casts doubts on it.) In any case, that article is only a few paragraphs, which doesn't seem to warrant splitting off the content from this article. I suggested a merge which I am happy to do myself if people agree. --RobertG ♬ talk 07:57, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, a merge is definitely in order. --Jashiin (talk) 09:02, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

No, a merge is not in order, but a renaming might be. This article (harpsichord) is quite long enough as it is, and there is much to say about the modern use of the harpsichord outside the period instruments movement. Even if the term "contemporary harpsichord" is not in common use, the concept is certainly worthy of its own article, whatever it's called. Willi Gers07 (talk) 17:41, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by "concept"? The article in question simply describes the history of harpsichord music in 20th century. I am not aware of any special, widely spread new playing techniques (i.e. analogous to string piano or prepared piano); if there are any, they may merit their own articles. But simply creating a separate article to describe the history of the instrument during a particular time... I mean, isn't that what this article and History of the harpsichord are? --Jashiin (talk) 17:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

No, Merge is for sure not the way to go with this article, it is a very valid article given the number of performers who dedicate themselves to playing contemporary harpsichord these days (and books written on the subject, Larry Palmers Harpsichord in America springs to mind). Whilst it should be noted on the history of harpsichord page, of course, it merits its own page. I think the article should detail more information about the modern type of harpsichord, such as the Neupert & Pleyel. --24.203.229.110 (talk) 19:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)