Talk:Singapore

File:Singapore flag large.png

Welcome! This talkpage is to discuss the article Singapore only. Past discussions can be found within this archive. For discussion regarding Singapore-related articles and issues, please visit the talkpage of the SGpedians' notice board. Enjoy! =)

urban planning and taxonomical breakdown

As you can see from Wikipedia talk:SGpedians' notice board#Standardisation, I feel mentioning urban planning is very important...it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the Singapore article at all, and also the other reason is that there should be something of the sort "Singapore is divided into 5 urban planning areas", such that the reader can easily flow from the general to the specific in a form of taxonomy. Should this be in the Geography Section? Plus, we can avoid a huge mess of articles of Singapore places (as they all tie in into the main Singapore article hierarchially) in the first place. For example, if you look at the United States of America example, they *do* mention political divisions and mention how they break down, so I'm thinking we can do a parallel, just not as extensive. Any thoughts? I have a plan to create a hierarchial template, and maybe even an entire section for it? -- Natalinasmpf 17:41, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Some of you might want to check the SG Pedian's Notice Board Talk, I just proposed a new policy on creating and organising articles concerning Singapore there. -- Natalinasmpf 1 July 2005 22:51 (UTC)

Sports in Singapore

The article on Sports in Singapore is up. A part of it is taken from Culture_of_Singapore#Recreation_and_Sports. If interested, please help to review and contribute. Once ready, we would want to transfer the introductory portion here, as a section in "Singapore" article. Cheers, --Vsion 6 July 2005 06:41 (UTC)

No Jocelyn yeo? :D--Huaiwei 6 July 2005 09:47 (UTC)

Should be a subsection of the Culture section, rather having its own section. Would be less awkward (IMO). -- Natalinasmpf 6 July 2005 10:02 (UTC)

But that would mean a very big subsection isnt it? I personally feel there is space for its own page with so much emphasise on sports development here nowadays--Huaiwei 6 July 2005 10:19 (UTC)

Didn't we do that with the climate section? (Well before much of it was condensed). IMO, two or so paragraphs wouldn't be too large, unless we plan to have more as a lead-in? -- Natalinasmpf 6 July 2005 10:58 (UTC)

Hm....oh you are refering to the text in the Singapore page? Sory....I tot you were asking for this page to be merged with Culture_of_Singapore#Recreation_and_Sports! :D--Huaiwei 6 July 2005 11:20 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I meant. Since this is on the Singapore talkpage and all. ;-) -- Natalinasmpf 6 July 2005 12:08 (UTC)

Done, Joscelin Yeo added. Wasn't aware that she has 2 Asian Games Bronzes. -- Vsion 7 July 2005 04:33 (UTC)

Page too long

This page is good, but really too long. But I'm not sure where to snip. It would be no good if I saw away those important information which does not appear in any other referring pages. ;-) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 04:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I agreed that the page is too long, especially the politics section, as commented in "peer review". I'm summarizing and moving some content mainly to Politics of Singapore and Laws of Singapore. -- Vsion 06:00, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I was just wondering...was it really too long? Take the on-going nomination for Hong Kong, which was generally favourable despite it being much longer and having many subsections which were previously removed in this page for being "inconsistent" with other country pages. Some people have argued that Singapore is a country as well as a city, to justify more subsections, but that does not seem to have an effect. Have we actually tried too hard to shorted it? (oh btw, no one seem to have an issue with the international rankings part in Hong Kong...an idea which looks like it was inspired from this page! :D)--Huaiwei 06:59, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I think readability is more important than total length, and a single long section is indeed quite daunting for readers. Currently, the "Politics" and "Culture" sections are rather long; my suggestion is to reduce it (while preserving the content in another page) or split it into more sections which is lesser of an evil. As for the intl. ranking, removing it is just a temporary measure because of an objection raised in peer review. Hopefully, there won't be another reviewer who want it back. ;-) --Vsion 07:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Some more sections would be needed, e.g. Education of Singapore, etc.. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:41, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

But previous nominations asked for them to be removed leh........sigh...........--Huaiwei 15:44, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Y ar? -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:52, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Aiyah half the folks think its too long, the other half thinks its too short. The thing is some think this should follow a "country format", while others think it should follow that of a "city". What the fish! :D --Huaiwei 05:32, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

How come all the boxes all are not in proper layout

We do have Education in Singapore - the greatest glare right now is we lack a Ministry of Education (Singapore) article. -- Natalinasmpf 21:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

politics of singapore

guys, the politics is obviously being written by people who have never been to singapore. power in singapore has been controlled by the prime minister - and there have been basically only 2 ( a father and a son) with one guy serving in the interim. the president is a ceremonial post.Kennethtennyson 05:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Republic of Singapore - Order of names

I'm not even Malay but Chinese-Eurasian and I don't know if it a small issue with anybody but it has irritated enough to write it here - of the 4 official languages, Malay is our NATIONAL language - the tongue in which we sing our anthem; the proper title of our President is in Malay, not to forget the line of Malay Sultans that came before the brits.

As a modern Republic, the country belongs to ALL it's citizens - I am acutely aware of the issue of Taman Melayu and the troubles of racial riots that came about in the 50's and 60's. But as a matter of respect and deference, I feel the proper Malay name of Singapore should come before the other tongues.

If I'm not mistaken, since this is the English Wikipedia, by convention, English names are given priority. It would be confusing if Malaysia was officially named as Persekutuan Malaysia instead of the Federation of Malaysia, wouldn't it? Johnleemk | Talk 13:34, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Gay communities

The article lists internet gay communities that have evolved in response to the ban on gay sex. Two of the cited articles have no page but two others link to something that has nothing to do with homosexual rights (Red Queen and Sambal). Could we fix this please? I'm not sure how to distinguish these the political counterparts from these terms.--Atlastawake 18:20, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Human Rights / Government Drug Relationships

I know that many singaporeans dislike me putting in new sections on the Singapore page about these very controversial subjects, but I beleive that the Singapore page is the most appropriate page for it.

What I am prepared to do is create a new article regarding these issues as long as I can create a new sub-section on the main Singapore page that is highly visable with a link to the new article I create.

These are very important issues, they are not POINTS OF VIEW, they are well documented facts by NGO's and Foreign Government Departments / Foreign Media outlets.

People should ignore their patriotism and allow factual pieces to exist within the page. They maybe hard to swallow but thats life.

Mattrix18 14:22, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Sign your posts! Let me tell you something. I don't enjoy being Singaporean. But hav you read WP:NPOV? What you want to add is a blatant violation of that. NSLE _{(讨论+extra)} 13:59, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

"well documented facts by NGO's and Foreign Government Departments / Foreign Media outlets"? I am not sure, but if this comment is made in contrast to government-controlled propaganda on domestic affairs, than I suppose that is just as un-NPOV as well?--Huaiwei 14:04, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

"What you want to add is a blatant violation of that." No it is not. I have referenced my works to outside sources. They are not my points of view, they are evidence based points of fact. Mattrix18 14:22, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The facts you are adding are already in the article. All you are changing is the wording, which is blatantly twisted in opposition towards the government. Johnleemk | Talk 14:29, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

No, I am expanding on what has already been said. A lot of the stuff in the first section is expanded on in the latter sections of the article and no one protests about that. If what I write sounds like opposition to the Government then that is your take on it. If you would like me to add some Singaporean Government Propaganda to what I have written then fine, ill do that. Mattrix18 14:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

That's not the point. Your previous edits seem to be just tacked onto the article and this makes it look somewhat arkward. Putting it in the Laws of Singapore article would be much better. And external links are generally pruned by other editors to avoid it growing out of hand, it would be better if it could be used in the Reference section. Btw, don't forget about NPOV! :) --Andylkl ^{(talk) (contrib)} 15:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

To somewhat repeat what Andy said, your wording is POV. Plain as that. You do not balance POV by adding more POV in the other direction. This article is also bloated as it is, so if you want to write about this (it goes without saying that this should be in a neutral manner) do so in the article Andy suggested. Finally, external links go in the external links section and nowhere else. That is policy. Johnleemk | Talk 15:10, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I still think it is a unique issue in regards to Singapore about its financial and moral support / links with Drug Lords. It is not something most other nations (especially democracies) have. Mattrix18 17:04, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, most countries don't have a intelligent design battle either - only the United States has it - what a unique situation. But it's not a general section, that every single country has, and therefore shouldn't an entire section. It can be mentioned in a section, as a link, as a single statement. THe fact that it is something that most other nations doesn't have excludes it from being mentioned as an entire section, because the format is, most countries have laws, politics, geography, and demographics, and law, but not individual sections for every controversy. Do you see what I mean? You should also assume we're not including it because we're being nationalistic or anything, there are other reasons, like format. -- Natalinasmpf 17:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Intelligent design is not a government policy. Thats the point. Mattrix18 17:38, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Uh, the decision of whether to teach intelligent design in schools is. It was only an analogy as well - first, this is an encylopedia article - the general hierarchy of things is from the most general to the most specific. A controversy like this will probably have its own article, perhaps if it really warrants it, be linked from the main Singapore page, but not have it's own section! -- Natalinasmpf 19:59, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The point is, I don't go adding every single human rights violation by the United States to the United States article....however, I might be keen to add it to the Human rights in the United States article - do you see what I mean? It's about classification and organisation here: what you are adding is very specific. This page is for very general things. You don't add an entire "section" for a country based on several incidents.......sections for countries include, law, politics, economy, etc. not every issue it has. -- Natalinasmpf 15:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Mattrix18, even if you want to highlight the issue of Singapore's supposed "sponsorship" of drug loads in Myanmar, I do wonder if you did your own due research for a more balanced viewpoint irregardless of your claims that you did. If you may read the Singapore envoy's article in the Aussie's paper The Age, he made it clear, that the Myanmar episode was actually the result of anti-govt propaganda grossly exagerated by Singapore's best friend Chee Soon Juan, a story he didnt manage to substaintiate even after the government challenged him to do so. If you are adamant about adding that kind of information, I would demand that you offer opposing views about it as well.--Huaiwei 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

First sentence...

...uh, I'm just popping by to do some research and am not an expert on Wikipedia or Singapore, but having the page start "Singapore (language variants) is a barbaric and blood thirsty ..." doesn't seem very mature, authoritative or neutral. Plus, "bloodthirsty" is one word. Is somebody working out some personal grievance here? This is NOT encycopaedic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.129.135.114 (talk • contribs)

It's not. People are upset over capital punishment in Singapore and seem to be intentionally vandalising this article. Thanks for pointing this out. Johnleemk | Talk 15:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't worry about it, the person they are bitching about is now dead and they should have given up by now...cos he hangs! he hangs! Comradeash 23:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe they shouldn't give up, some people find executing individuals for non-violent crimes a pretty horrid violation of fundamental human rights. Not saying it belongs on the Wikipedia article by any means, but taunting people who find offensive the recent execution with something like "...cos he hangs! he hangs!" really does little to forward the discussion... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.226.6 (talk • contribs)

Not everyone shares European Enlightenment conceptions of human rights. Some people think that community and security are more important than individual rights. You can lambast them if you want, but the assumption is worth highlighting for any useful discussion. I think this article would benefit from a discussion of the Asian values debate, in which the leaders of Singapore are major players. (I don't know how to sign this, but if I could I would.)

Trafficking heroin is hardly a non-violent crime. As far as I see it, it has some pretty violent side effects, ie. causing death, addiction, and whatnot. -- Natalinasmpf 03:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"some people find executing individuals for non-violent crimes a pretty horrid violation of fundamental human rights". Others like myself think drugs are extremely harmful substances which ruins lifes, perhaps more so than a serial killer can ever cause.--Huaiwei 04:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Heroin and illegal drugs fund terrorists, who grow narcotics to fund their causes. Tobacco and alcohol and the other hand, does not (although I am too against them). In this case, drug trafficking is a security threat. -- Natalinasmpf 12:02, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Very biased point of view "Singapore is a barbaric and blood thirsty..." has no NPOV. The effects of drugs are very serious. It does not only affect the person but people around him eg. family members or friends. They turn to crimes to buy more drugs, and are especially addicted and they suffer withdrawal symptomps. --Terenceong1992 05:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

(whoever wrote this comment should think that if those drugs were made legal, quality products could be produced that would induce less harm (yes there is harm, but doesnt alcohol and tobacco cause harm too, to users and those arround them) as well crimes to raise money to buy drugs would plummet as the drugs would become as cheap as chips)....ps. did u ever think that capital punishment not only punishes the criminal but others around him too (eg. mother who was not even allowed to hug her son.) how cruel and heinous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.23.157.187 (talk • contribs)

What? Texas practices the death penalty. A lot of country uses dealth penalties. As I see it, we gave him a fair trial. That is a democratic right, unlike I don't know, the United States that continues to hold people without trial in Guantanamo Bay? -- Natalinasmpf 15:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

A digression: I wonder if the guy who first synthesized heroin back in 1874 ever had any regrets about his discovery... :> — Kimchi.sg | Talk 06:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Singapore and the rest of south east asian nations that violate the basic and fundamental human rights of citizens of the Western world (as declared by the united nations, league of nations, and the most powerful countries on earth) will have the same returned to them one thousand fold over when it is invaded occupied and cleansed of the suit-wearing monkeys who run the dictatorships (why do u think the US is practising long-range (trans pacific) airforce bomber flights across to the northern territory, australia... to practice reaching another nation very nearby (hint: singapore, indonesia, etc)). it is hypocritical to hang a small-time drug trafficker (who was taking drugs OUT of singapore) using a rope made from the hashish plant, while those running singapore provide a haven for known drug LORDS from cambodia, and provide millions of dollars (or bannanas or whatever it is that is used over there) to these people to create the drugs in the first place. shame singapore, shame. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.23.157.187 (talk • contribs)

While my country may be slightly authoritarian, and in fact I defy many of the authorities, I stand by the drug laws and its penalty. It does not violate human rights to execute someone for trafficking heroin. Heroin is a security threat. Australia is a large nation - maybe you have the luxury of seeing your people get wasted, but we're quite smaller, and we cannot afford our only resource - skilled people - and thus allowing our port to thrive to be compromised. Drugs compromise this. If you remove Singapore, by the way, then you will seriously undermine support of the US of other ASEAN countries, and perhaps prevent reform in the long run - like I don't know, intervention in Myanmar. It is ironic - but hypocritical to hang someone with a rope used from hashish plant, because you can't use rope to get high. Financial aid to other countries is not funding the drug trade. It is financial aid. Get to your senses. -- Natalinasmpf 15:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Such a statement as yours, overloaded with blatant lies and assumptions and ignorance as it is, does not deserve to be over-glorified with anything more than a reply of one sentence.

P.S. Why do people who say this sort of thing never ever sign their posts? — Kimchi.sg | Talk 09:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Cos there is anger. And formalities and anger don't go hand in hand. - Mailer Diablo 11:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Drugs, Van Nguyen, etc.

It is blatant POV to keep any reference to drugs & Van Nguyen out of the article. It doesn't need to be huge, but it needs to be included. It also needs to be mentioned that tourists who did not intend to smuggle drugs have been hashly punnished by Singapore. Face it, such things are the source of much comment on the country. JeffBurdges 12:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. A warning should be written somewhere.

• Thank you, yes we agree about that. It should be summarised enough though as the article Singapore is quite cluttered, with the bulk of its content at its sub-pages. You may leave suggestions on how the text should be expressed here, and we'll be working on it after the page is unlocked. :) - Mailer Diablo 15:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

• A brief sentence - ie. an example of capital punishment in Singapore. In fact, we do already mention it. I see no reason to mention Nguyen - he's not of major political importance (ie. not a leader, or a founder), he's just a case. Unless it leads to severance of ties or something, I see no reason to include it, because, this is an encylopedia, and Nguyen is indeed notable, but not so notable as to be mentioned on the main page. -- Natalinasmpf 03:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

• • No a short list of notable cases is very worth mentioning. Really, all notable calses should be mentioned, but on Singapore's politics page, not all here. The reason for this is that wikipedia searching sucks so bad that you can't find the cases unless you hit What links here, which won't help n00bs. I say briefly mention the flavor of the month here, and mention all notable cases on Singapore's politics page. JeffBurdges 21:13, 2 December 2005 (UTC) BTW, all then otable cases should ideally link together, or to the section of the politics page.
    • Yes, mentioning on the Law page, not the main Singapore page. I mean, if you see Human rights in the United States they do mention case by case, which is the appropriate context for mentioning specific cases. Nguyen and Fay, IIRC are the only notable cases in Singapore's political system, as well as Took Leng How, who murdered Huang Na. I do not think we should mention specific cases on the main Singapore article, not because of the POV or anything, but merely because other country articles do not, and it is not notable enough considering we have limited space. Ideally one should aim for stable material to build on, not a list of cases that changes every month. If you really wanted to go for it, I suggest creating an article like "list of executions in Singapore", linking to it from the law page and the main Singapore page, which because being a link, one would be able to connect to. -- Natalinasmpf 03:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, I'd just like to say that, by removing any reference to "excessive punnishments for drugs" & Van Nguyen, you guys are bringing the trolls and vandals upon yourselves. The correct reaction when some pseudo-vandal posts a stupid paragraph is it delete it, but take the core of the complaint and provide a link to a wikipedia page which actually addresses that issue directly. In this way, you take the small contribution of the messmaker. If you don't do this, you just inspire more of them. JeffBurdges 21:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

As I see it, we already are mentioning it. Whether or not the punishment is excessive is point of a view - we may say, "it has been criticised as excessive by Amnesty International and whatnot", but we cannot say it indeed is excessive. We are an international port with a lot of international traffic, I don't consider a high capital punishment rate surprising. -- Natalinasmpf 03:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no justification for vandalism. Anyone is perfectly justified in removing text that flies in the face of Wikipedia's NPOV policy, such as the entertaining "indictment on civilization" text.

Also, no one has removed "excessive punishments". Singapore is in fact one of the few country articles on Wikipedia that mentions things like capital punishment and caning in its introduction section (unlike even Iran or North Korea), and yet no one is removing those.

As Mailer Diablo has said, we can work on how the page can be better revised once the vandals have left and the page is unlocked, especially the question of whether this article should provide a link to the Van Nguyen case. -- ran (talk) 21:30, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

No one is talking about "justification for vandalism". Your making a straw man here because you have no good reason for keeping the "flavor of the month" victim of a miscarriage of justice out of the article. Wikis were supposed to be about finding creative and subtle solutions to vandalism, trolls, etc., if you forget that your supposed to be smarten then them, you won't be.

Iran & North Korea are not currently treated in an NPOV way either. NPOV means giving both sides, not giving fewer and fewer sides until one side is happy. BTW, Wikipedia doesn't seem to have a problem with getting both sides of the story out of Singapore, as their government is quite happy to make its case publicly. JeffBurdges 23:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Country / state articles are not collections of "flavours of the month". We do not name specific cases of capital punishment in general country / state articles like United States, Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Virginia, Florida, People's Republic of China, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, Pakistan, Egypt, or Bangladesh, because in-depth discussion about the death penalty is too specific for country / state articles, which are meant to be overviews only. Nor should we mention a "flavour of a month" simply to deflect a brief spell of vandalism. -- ran (talk) 01:55, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

And while we are at it, of coz the idea that this case should be highlighted for what is deemed as a "miscarriage of justice" is in itself disputable, and hardly NPOV. Mentioning it in the first paragraph is already unusual, considering plenty of other countries have the same sentencing for the same offence. Why do you need to push it further unless a cause is driving you to do so?--Huaiwei 02:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, whether or not Nguyen suffered a miscarriage of justice is a POV. There is a good case to say he deserved it, especially since he could have chosen another country to link to, and stay the hell away from us. I mean, carrying 26,000 doses worth of heroin (that 396 grams) is just asking for it...15 grams is already a lot, and usually only gangsters involved in organised crime carry that amount, but 25 times more than that is certainly particularly heinous. He wasn't just any drug trafficker but a big time drug trafficker. -- Natalinasmpf 03:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Argh! We don't even link the Human rights in the United States article from the United States of America article!! What are people supposed to use "What links here" everytime they read an article? Geez.. I'll go bitch about it. JeffBurdges 15:08, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh, they can use the category function. I think what it is that the United States article itself has to be pretty compact - it's linked at the bottom. -- Natalinasmpf 16:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I had the same problem with wikipedia search. Now I use google search more often; you can specify wikipedia as the site domain: such as the query "United States human rights site:en.wikipedia.org" [1] it should get what you want pretty quickly. The category function is also helpful as Natalina suggest. --Vsion 22:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Singapore, an indictment on civilisation

This is a simplified summing up of Singapore that a contributor left on the Singapore article page. Unfortunately it has now been blocked, however i beleive that this should be given some airing at least on this discussion page as a form of protest against this country and its governments practices. I'm just now hearing the Singapore PM describing their policies as following the rule of law, anyone who had even the most basic understanding of this term would realise that the excepted definition of it is the exact opposite to mandatorily hanging someone. Anyway this is what the article should consist of, for a while anyway (as it is of course the truth)as a form of protest. Perhaps in hope of shaming the country into changing its ways, although to date the country has not demonstrated that its capable of such action. it of course would take civility, morals, intelligence and most of all courage, all attributes Singapore seems to be most certainly lacking (especially courage). This is what should be on the page: Singapore is an undemocratic, uncivilised, boring nation that has no sense of justice. Singapore is basically, an offshoot of China, or as former Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam described, a rogue Chinese port, although to be fair to China it should be said that, Singapore's moral and social standards are somewhat lower. Its main purpose is essentially being conveniently located refuelling point between Australia and Europe, with most travellers wanting to stopover there for as little time as possible. Singapore is not respected by any western countries, most of whom rightly regard the country as being barbaric, lacking morals and having policies that suggest a lack of intelligence, education and general civillity. Therefor most view Singapore, in social terms as belonging to the third world and certainly not being on the same level as other western world nations. The government of Singapore are obviously unintelligent, uneducated,illogical, unelected people of an aninimalistic nature and subsequently are treated with contempt, disrespect and pity by other governments from the western world and other countries that are also more civilised than Singapore.

A major regret for Australia and it's fellow World War 2 allies is that Singapore may as well have been left to the Japanese after the war, as even the japanese militaristic wartime government would have been better than the current Singapore administration which is basically just a model of nepotism and inbreeding.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore"

The two comments in the edit summary go further to demonstrate my point. It is not not only in relation to one person, but all those hung in your country. Singapore has in fact got the highest rate of hangings, or any form of capital punishment for that matter, than anywhere else in the world per capita. Having a mandatory death penalty is not in line with the rule of law or justice in any way. As to the point about narcotics funding terroism, its completely not the point. Im certainly not arguing what he did was not wrong, but his conviction atumoatically attracted the death sentence, with no discretion being able to be applied by the judege (completely out of line with the rule of law), despite the fact that there were mitigating circumstances, eg he gave his full co-operation. Further, the punishment was massively disproportionate to his crime. People who recieve the death penalty for murder have actually killed someone, whilst it can be argued that the drugs may have cost lives, there is no direct proof of this, and more importantly his drugs nver even hit the street, so non one sufferred, this is akin to hanging someone not for attempted murder, but attempted manslaughter, a crime that doesn't even exist because it is not logical. the argument that this policy is somehow a detterent is also extremely flawed, your drug use rates are no lower than (an in some cases higher) than other countries such as the USA and Australia. In fact singapore has a very strong reputation internationally as being associated with druglords anf the drug trade.

Yor removal of comments like mine show that you either beleive in what your government has doen, which would be a very sad indictment on yourselves personally, or yu are in fact ashamed of yourcountries actions. In sincerely hope it is the latter.

• The latter. And you should understand our current SGpedian's plight of "Damn if we do, damn if we don't". And you are fortunate to write such prose and your fellow countrymen making threats without consquence, if you do the same in Singapore soil you can expect officers from the Internal Security Department to come knocking at your doorstep the next day. - Mailer Diablo 15:23, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

• Removal of comments? Ironic. You removed my comment. Anyhow, in response, your criticism is evidently spiteful, not constructive - which is the best way to go around making a difference in protest. You know what? We are a sovereign country. We are a republic, with a tired political system yes, but we still have a lot say over our own laws, and we govern ourselves. If Lee Hsien Loong suddenly tried to run a law to bypass elections, I have no doubt democracy would prevail. Your so called "changes" are obviously hyperbole, do see WP:POINT, and they are obviously not true. Exaggerated yes, holding some semblance of truth yes, but not true. Many first world countries have a death penalty for serious charges, and we did give Nguyen a fair trial. The United States in dealing with suspects, on the other hand...you obviously don't get the potential for drugs to ruin things here, where Singapore, being a city-state with no natural resources, cannot allow people to run amok with drugs, and must be very spartan in this respect. Attempted manslaughter yes, but it poses such a threat to economic stability and stability of the country that I call it treason. -- Natalinasmpf 15:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

• To anons: Wikipedia does not support a policy of vandalizing country articles at every and any controversy. If you wish to complain about current events, please do so elsewhere. -- ran (talk) 16:01, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

• The introduction seems pretty civil, until I came to the bolded text. If it was the bold text you are attempting to add, then I would think it highly likely that it will be removed even by those who personally disapprove of capital punishment. I dont have the energy to read the entire text, but it is evident the same old points are being raised yet again, even thou they have been corrected before. The so-called "full co-operation" he gave to the government was simply false, and the "help" he wanted to give was of limited value. Lee Kuan Yew recently described the Australian press as "colourful", and for good reason. Sensationalisation seems to take precedence over fact, and I am left wondering just what kind of role the Australian media think they play. All in all, it just boils down to some people's opposition to capital punishment, and the believe that drug trafficking does not justify the sentencing, and both points are views which are difficult to sway for people on both sides of the fence. Anything new you would like to discuss here? That the United States is also an indictment on civilisation?--Huaiwei 17:32, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Rather than sensationalizing the plight of one family, why doesn't the Australian media sensationalize the plights of the hundreds, if not thousands of families that have been shattered by heroin use in Australia?

It sounds like a moral panic.--218.102.79.235 03:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding more recent stats, but here: [2]. In 1998, more than 600 Australians died from heroin overdoses. In contrast, the 2002 Bali bombing, "Australia's 911", killed 89 Australians; the 2005 Bali bombings killed 4 Australians. Also note that Nguyen knew fully well what he was doing; he went and did it anyways.

Let's say that instead of a drug trafficker, the convicted were a 2002 Bali bomber, with Australian citizenship, who tried but failed to detonate his bomb in a crowd of Australian tourists. Would the Australian media have fixated on whether this aforementioned convicted bomber were allowed to hug his mother?

Singapore is helping to protect Australian lives, and this is what Singapore gets. -- ran (talk) 18:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you apply to be the executioner? It is absurd that Singaporeans want executions while nobody willing to be the hangman - ain't Singoporean blood thirsty? Instead of simply hang Nguyen, hang, drawn and quartering him would even gartner more support from Singapore electorates, with his quartered body should be displayed at Orchid Road, Parliament House, Merlion with his head displayed at Changi Airport's passport control as deterrent. Any volunteers? --218.102.79.235 03:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Why would Singaporeans be considered bloodthirsty if they believe the death penalty can help reduce crime rates, but dosent want to have any direct role in it themselves? Its the typical NIMBY attitude, and Singaporeans are generally content letting the state deal with such things themselves. Bloodthirsty? Meanwhile, hang, drawn and quartering him sounds pretty interesting. Do you do that in Australia as an example for us to follow?--Huaiwei 06:58, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Protect Australian lives? You murderers cannot cope with freedom- hell, you fine people for chewing gum and execute people instead of attempting to rehabilitate them. Your rationale and your country is sick.--69.231.237.71 04:14, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course the death penalty is saving Australian lives, why do you think 47% Austrialians support the execution [3]. Because hundreds of Australians die each year of drug abuse and millions of lives are affected. [4]. Why do you think John Howard didn't apply further diplomatic pressure? Because he is pragmatic and know the real consequences. Afghanistan has drastically increased its heroin production and the drug problem is becoming worse. What did the occupying forces from western countries, including Australians, in Afghanistan do to stop it? Singapore is doing its best at its borders to stop the trafficking, hope other countries are not just standing and watching. --Vsion 04:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Execute people instead of attempting to rehabilitate them? Makes me wonder why Singapore needs the courts then, since we might as well just send everyone to the gallows instead of wasting so much taxpayers money on trying them? No rebabilitation, you say? So what in the world are Drug Rehabilitation Centres doing in Singapore? To be staffed by individuals like yourself?--Huaiwei 06:58, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Eerie content premonition

How was it that I knew, before I even visited it, that the Wikipedia entry on Singapore would be controlled by the Singapore government's agents and sympathisers? Wulfilia 18:38, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia controlled by neither the government of Singapore nor the Australian media. If you have any suggestions for how Singapore-related articles may be improved, please make them, instead of making accusations about Singaporean Wikipedians that you yourself know to be untrue. Wikipedia is not a venue for flame wars. -- ran (talk) 18:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs an ability to monitor IP address ranges. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would love to be notified whenever someone with a Singapore IP address modified the article. JeffBurdges 21:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

As I see it, it seems that Singaporeans would be one of the more people who would have information on the subject, but you seem to treat such edits with suspicion. Furthermore, most of the content comes from non-anonymous editors. Much of the content is simply a neutral reflection, and that yes, one cannot deny we're doing well in certain things, as much as some warhawk Australians might not to admit. You realise that many of the information is in fact, a criticism of our country, especially when we document activism and government. -- Natalinasmpf 02:51, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Singaporeans dont seem to have it good. When we speak up for the government or its policies, it is considered a reflection of how dominating and influential the government is. When we speak up against it, it is considered "normal", and should be encouraged. So in other words, Singaporeans dont have the liberty of speech to even say one thing good about their government without being branded as a government lackey or agent by open-speech advocates. So for all the positive things this government has done, they do not deserve any praise, for hawkish foreigners apparantly think these are secondary compared to the "human rights abuses" on one of their own citizens.

Anyhow, you dont need much "investigations into IP ranges" just to see who has been contributing to this page. As Natalin mentioned, most major Singaporean contributors are doing so with a registered username. Any other anonymous contributor has their IP clearly displayed. Plenty of people would love to be notified when Singaporeans edit this page. Well...says who? Who are these folks, if any? How is it no one have actively shown he cares after month and months of contributions to this page, most of which are Singaporeans or who are familiar with the country to give a more level-headed commentary on it?--Huaiwei 03:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Most of the recent vandalism came from Australia and none from Singapore, so why would anyone want to watch for edits from Singaporean IP's in particular? Though personally, I don't support focusing upon IP addresses from any particular country, since vandals can attack Wikipedia from anywhere in the world. -- ran (talk) 03:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

double standards?

I see a breakdown of the different types of Malay identities, the different Indian nationalities, the breakdown of the various Chinese dialects spoken. So why is the part about the different Eurasian european ethnicities being edit out? Is it irrelevant?

Is it? Show me a diff. -- Natalinasmpf 15:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Are they significant enough in number to show a breakdown?--Huaiwei 18:13, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

content list for this talk page

I'm wondering why, since we already have so many sections, that this talk page doesn't seem to have a content list like all the others. Where did it go? -- Natalinasmpf 03:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

It looks like the {{todo}} template is blocking it somehow. -- ran (talk) 03:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

It went awol for a while, I think it's back now. :D --Vsion 06:07, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

lol!--Huaiwei 06:52, 3 December 2005 (UTC)