Talk:Islamic calendar

Reason for prohibition of intercalation of months

Does anyone have a good explanation as to why this was forbidden by Mohammed? Was it to reduce the importance of the Kalammas?

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Why would intercalation be necessary? There doesn't seem to be any particular reason for that.

Conversions

What is the present year number in the Islamic calendar? 1379? A sentence in the text like the year 2000 in the Gregorian calendar was 1378 (or what?) in the Islamic might be good.

Of course, when does the Islamic calendar change years? Certainly this changes in respect to the Gregorian calendar as the Islamic months process in relation to the Gregorian. So maybe a page that said 2000 in the Gregorian was 1378 in the Islamic until Sept. (or whenever) and was 5709 (or whatever) in Hebrew until .... etc. with other calendars. Anyone know what these years are?

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The present year (beginning in 2001 AD) is 1422. This is larger than 1378, because the year always has just 12 lunar months and so is about 11 days shorter than the Gregorian Calendar year.

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The present year is 1430 AH and began in December 2008. Lunar years are either 354 or 355 days long, which means that they are 10-12 days shorter than the solar year. Riyadhrambler (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

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This article and the article July 16 both state that the first day of the first year of the Islamic calendar corresponds to July 16, 622. Is that July 16 Julian or Gregorian? (At the time, the Gregorian calendar now in general use had not been developed, and the only contemporaneous "July 16" was actually the Julian one, which would have been a week or so off from the Gregorian count, I think. --Haruo (talk) 05:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Islamic Calendar

Islamic Calendar is used only for Ramzan Fasting, Haj pilgrimage and Eid festivities. For all other purposes Gregorian calendar is used. Quran regards moon and the sun merely as sign for counting time and days as follows:

002.189 They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage....

010.005 It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.

At the dawn of Islam there were no printed calendars, no watches and the concept of hours and minutes developed in some 600 years later. The dates were counted by the year of elephants by watching moon and time by the movement of sun. According to old traditions the advice of Prophet Mohammed was as follows:

(1) Narrated Ibn 'Umar: The Prophet said, "We are an illiterate nation; we neither write, nor know accounts. The month is like this and this, i.e. sometimes of 29 days and sometimes of thirty days." (2) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet or Abu-l-Qasim said, "Start fasting on seeing the crescent (of Ramadan), and give up fasting on seeing the crescent (of Shawwal), and if the sky is overcast (and you cannot see it), complete thirty days of Sha'ban."

Around 9th centuries Muslim astronomers mapped movement of stars, sun and moon and found that the moon is about one fourth of the size of the earth and moves around Earth at an average distance of 238,857 miles, and completes one revolution around Earth in a little more than 27 days. And deep in West of Mecca the moon tends to appear a day earlier and deep in East a day or two later. As Islam had spread in different continents and the means of communications were not swift, it was difficult to determine as to when the new moon was sighted at Mecca. Therefore, Fatmid Caliphs and Imam prescribed a calendar in 10th century developed by the great astronomer Albairooni that dispensed with the need for actual moon sighting in order to maintain uniformity in Islamic world.

That calendar is still used in Egypt, Syria and most Arab world as also Bohra community in India and Pakistan and they do not see any need for sighting moon even for Ramzan. But Saudi bigots insist that the calendar should be adjusted every month based on moon sighting in Mecca. And orthodox Ulemas in India and Pakistan and North America insist that fasting and Eid must be based on moon sighting in their own country.

Bigoted Ulemas fail to realize that nowhere in Holy Quran the actual sighting of moon has been made mandatory and the Traditions (Hadiths) do not prescribe a categorical practice for all times to come and that advice was meant for Meccans of that time who used to count time and dates by movement of moon and sun and the calendars and wathces were not available to them. That is why in many Muslim communities the calendar is adjusted every month and at least two to three different sets are followed in different countries. The Muslims who do not believe in the monthly adjustment are in minority.

Shah N. Khan http://www.magway.net/paklink

The moon sighting should not be characterized as a misguided notion of "bigoted ulemas" or "saudi bigots". Numerous verses in the Qur'an (6:4, 3:32, 3:132, 4:69, 47:33, etc.) command muslims to obey the messenger (Muhammed). To muslims, the Qur'an mandates that the verbal and practical traditions of Muhammed are executable directives transmitted through Muhammed to the believers.

Muslim #2379 states "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Observe fast on sighting it (the new moon) and break (fast) on sighting it (the new moon), but if the sky is cloudy for you, then complete the number (of thirty)." Muhammed did not qualify this statement with a time constraint, or say "unless you can calculate it's appearance".

Muslim #2391 states "Kuraib reported that Umm Fadl, daughter of Harith, sent him (Fadl, i. e. her son) to Mu'awiya in Syria. I (Fadl) arrived in Syria, and did the needful for her. It was there in Syria that the month of Ramadan commenced. I saw the new moon (of Ramadan) on Friday. I then came back to Medina at the end of the month. Abdullah b. 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) asked me (about the new moon of Ramadan) and said: When did you see it? I said.: We saw it on the night of Friday. He said: (Did) you see it yourself? -I said: Yes, and the people also saw it and they observed fast and Mu'awiya also observed fast, whereupon he said: But we saw it on Saturday night. So we would continue to observe fast till we complete thirty (lasts) or we see it (the new moon of Shawwal). I said: Is the sighting of the moon by Mu'awiya not valid for you? He said: No; this is how the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has commanded us." This practice demonstrates that different localities may begin or end a month based on the actual sighting at that locality. There is no requirement that all muslim regions are uniform with respect to the calender. Or, that every nation must adapt to meccan time.

Abu Dawud #2331 states "Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: Husayn ibn al-Harith al-Jadli from the tribe of Jadilah Qays said: The governor of Mecca delivered a speech and said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) took a pledge from us that we should perform the rites of hajj after sighting the moon. If we do not sight it and two reliable persons bear witness (that it was sighted), we should perform the rites of hajj on the basis of their witness."

There are no known utterences from Muhammed that prescribe, or support, computational predictions of astronomical events. Nor are there any prescriptions from Muhammed that moon sightings are only for meccans or Saudis. Modern dependence on computational methodologies is not consistent with the islamic tradition that religion should be simple, even for an uneducated, illiterate believer. While many scholars do support the use of computational techniques to ease the practice of the religion, there are no mandates by anyone that requires these techniques to be used. The same scholars that support computational techniques also support moon sighting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdullah PBA (talk • contribs) 05:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Define AH

Somehow "AH" needs to be defined before it is used, perhaps with a reference to the section of the article where it is explained fully. I was confused when I first saw AH. I'm not sure how to do this best. Bruce 20:11, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

It clearly means "After Hijra" Dr B2 (talk) 04:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Re: the picture in Islamic calendar

what is the importance of this image in Islamic calendar article.I think it has no relation with the islamic calendar.please remove it.--Moda yahia (talk) 16:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi.
Hmm, someone removed parts of the image caption at some point. The image is apparently an illustration of Muhammad prohibiting intercalation, and as such is used to illustrate the Islamic calendar#Annulling intercalation section. You're quite correct that as it was, it didn't make much sense.
Cheers, Amalthea 16:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I still think it is not important in Islamic calendar#Annulling intercalation.I think it should be removed.--Moda yahia (talk) 15:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

You'll notice that it wasn't me who restored the image this time, so apparently I'm not alone in thinking that it is a useful illustration. Could I ask you to start a discussion about it at Talk:Islamic calendar instead of removing it again?
Thank you, Amalthea 09:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree too, this image don't have any importance to add in this article, and for muslims it is very offensive to show prophet Muhammad in an image or statue, so i really want it to be deleted . Dr B2 (talk) 04:36, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Fictional intercalary month

What's this nonesense about abolishing a fictional intercalary month? There is no historical source that I'm aware of mentioning that Muhammad abolished an intercalary month. For all we know, arabs before Muhammad used a purely lunar calendar. The cited verse has nothing to do with intercalary months. The verse talks about switching holy months. You see, before Muhammad arabs used to switch holy months as often as they liked. So for example they would make the holy month of Muharram a normal month and make a normal month like Jumada holy for that particular year. So why is this versed cited here? I'm deleting the entire paragraph about intercalary month unless someone show me a reliable source which mention abolishing intercalary months (which is highly unlikely). Sci fi writer (talk) 21:00, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

• Well, lycos.com has a reference to it here, citing this page. Christian Churches of God has a fairly POV article on the subject here as well. A book by the US Naval Observatory refers to it here, as do several others here and here. I hope that's enough. John Carter (talk) 21:20, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • FWIW, the wikia page is a copy of our article, in large parts at least. Amalthea 21:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
• There's also a bit about it at The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries and At-Tawba, but I haven't looked at the respective sources too deeply. Amalthea 21:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Muhammad himself stated in the cited verse from his farewell sermon (Islamic calendar#Annulling intercalation) that he is abolishing the intercalary month, "O People, intercalation is an addition to unbelief ..." For a discussion of intercalated months before Islam and their prohibition by Muhammad see al-Biruni, "Intercalation of the Ancient Arabs" in The Chronology of Ancient Nations, p.73–74 (written in 1000 CE), mentioned by Amalthea under the name The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries. — Joe Kress (talk) 22:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Another discussion is by S. B. Burnaby, Elements of the Jewish and Muhammadan calendars (1901) in Part II: The Muhammadan Calendar, page 367. He states that Arabs originally used a purely lunar calendar, but in 412 CE they adopted a lunisolar calendar containing an intercalary month named Nasi, which Muhammad prohibited in 632 CE. Burnaby's English version of the farewell sermon actually replaces "intercalation" with "the Nasi" indicating that Muhammad used the name of the intercalary month, "Nasi". — Joe Kress (talk) 01:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

The word "intercalation" is a mistranslation of the verse. The original arabic word in the verse is an-nasi' which means literaly delaying, not intercalation. All the quran commentaries that I'm aware of explain this word as refering to the delaying/switching of holy months, not to intercalation. Check for example the commentary of Ibn Kathir [1]. As for the Remaining Signs of the Past Centuries, I'll check the original arabic text because I don't think it mentions intercalation. Now you mentioned Sherrard Burnaby, this proves that at least one scholar believes in the existense of an intercalary month. But that still doesn't change the fact that the early arabic sources -especially the Quran commentaries- mention nothing about an intercalary month and explain the verse as refering to the switching of holy months. The problem with this article is that it presents the intercalary month as an undisputed fact, even though in reality the very existense of an intercalary month is supported by a small number of scholars. Sci fi writer (talk) 05:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

In E.J. Brill's first encyclopaedia of Islam NASI' is defined as an "intercalary month, intercalation, or man on whose authority an intercalation is undertaken". However it is also connected to "postpone". In addition to intercalation it may mean the "transference of the sanctity of one holy month to another, in itself not holy". The equivalent article in the Encyclopaedia of Islam has almost identical wording. In The Encyclopaedia of Islam article TA'RIKH (chronology) section "Pre-Islamic and agricultural calendars of the Arabian peninsula" these dual meanings are applied to Sura 9:37. One group of Muslim scholars "maintain that nasi' was a procedure by which an official (the nasi' ) connected with the Ka'ba cult at Mecca altered the distribution of 'forbidden' and 'permitted' months within a given year (or within two successive years)". Others, notably Muslim astronomers and modern scholars, "claim that the 'postponement' of the forbidden months was the result of the fact that the pagan Arabs intercalated a thirteenth month every two years; nasi' is thus in effect the old Arabic word for 'intercalation' (kabisa), a practice wnich was abolished with the revelation of the above-cited verse." — Joe Kress (talk) 06:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Joe for bringing this to my attention. So according to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, Muslim scholars believe that Nasi refers to the delaying of forbidden months while astronomers and western scholars believe it refers to intercalation. This could be a good basis for editing the article. Sci fi writer (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

This may be worth some attention: The Quran says there are 12 months in a year Repentance: (9-36):"twelve is the number of months with God." Now, this statement is only justified if the number of months used in a year, as used by the Arabs at the time, differed from twelve. Because the Quran didn't use to present evident facts to the people, only things which were especially worth a particular mention. On this basis, I personally would think that the intercalary month did exist at the time, as mentioned by several sources, especially since the Jews living in Arabia had a calendar which used the procedure of intercalation.Aster77 (talk) 17:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Editing the history section

After reading the article carefully, I've realized that the only section that needs editing is the history setion. The problem with this section is that it presents the intercalary month as a given fact. I'm changing this section to make it more neutral. Here's what I'm thinking of doing:

-The section mentions that the ancient arabian calendar was lunisolar. This is a POV. I'm changing it to show that there are two opinions: one that it was lunisolar, and other that it was lunar.

-The article defines Nasi as intercalation. Again this is a POV. I'm putting two definitions for Nasi.

-The article constantly refers to the "intercalary month". I'm changing this to "the Nasi" to make it more neutral.

-I'm not satisfied with the english text of the Prophet's sermon. It has the word intercalation in it but when I checked the arabic text of Ibn Ishaq's version I found the word an-nasi'. I can't change the translation beause that would be original research. So I'm removing the text of the Prophet's sermon but I will keep the reference to it.

The purpose of these changes is to make the article more neutral. Comments are welcome. Sci fi writer (talk) 18:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with much of what you wrote, but you have some misunderstandings as well, hence I reverted your preliminary edit, pending discussion. I agree that "annuling nasi" or even "nasi" is an appropriate section title. It may even be translated as "postponement" with both interpretations. I judge from the articles in the "Encyclopaedia of Islam" that roughly equal numbers of scholars, whether Muslim or Western, hold the two interpretations of nasi, hence the two views must be given equal weight according to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. The translation of the paragraph in the farewell sermon to which you object came from the Sahih Muslim collection of hadith, so certainly not all hadith scholars agree with you. Furthermore, Muslim astronomers, beginning in the second century AH, state that nasi means an intercalary month. Western scholars hold both views. Indeed, F.C. de Blois, who wrote the part of ta'rikh I referenced, holds your view. On the other hand, inscriptions survive which show that the pre-Islamic South Arabian kingdoms of Kataban (Oman) and Saba (Yemen) used lunisolar calendars featuring intercalary months that were obtained by repeating a normal month.

Many translations of the farewell sermon paragraph exist. The following was the original translation in the article before AMSA83 replaced it with the Sahih Muslim version:

O People, the unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calendar in order to make permissible that which Allah forbade, and to forbid that which Allah has made permissible. With Allah the months are twelve in number. Four of them are holy, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Shaban.

This can found in a few places such as ibn Muslim. Similar versions are from Quraan.com, from the Islamic Society of North America, and from The Importance of the Ahl al-Sunnah pp.216-217.

The translation by Burnaby could be used:

Certainly the Nasi is an impious addition, which has led the infidels into error. One year they authorise the Nasi, another year they forbid it. They observe the divine precept with respect to the number of the sacred months, but in fact they profane that which God has declared to be inviolable, and sanctify that which God has declared to be profane. Assuredly time, in its revolution, has returned to such as it was at the creation of the heavens and the earth. In the eyes of God the number of the months is twelve. Among these twelve months four are sacred, namely, Rajab, which stands alone, and three others which are consecutive.

This is similar to the Sahih Muslim version now in the article but is more nasi neutral except for the "revolution of time" sentence. These translations reveal two versions of this paragraph of the sermon, one short and another long. I need to review my sources to properly reword the sections. — Joe Kress (talk) 08:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm adding a more neutral version of Nasi, but it still needs more work. — Joe Kress (talk) 00:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Jahiliyya

Pease, take a look here. What do wikipedians think about this question? --Vermondo (talk) 19:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

An anonymous editor, 93.32.59.132, just added a direct prohibition of years "before Hijra" to this article as follows:

The years preceding the Hijra are not cosidered in this calendar (Muslims regard these times simply as the Jahiliyyah, i.e. "the age of ignorance"), and calendars calculating years BH are nonsense ["Christian dates before 622 AD cannot be converted into Islamic dates as no <BEFORE-HIJRA>- chronology exists" (Computus calendar conversion program).]

I am moving this statement to this talk page for discussion because a blanket prohibition makes no sense. According to its article, Jahiliyyah means the time before the Qu'ran was revealed, which began in 610 CE, hence in 12 BH. Furthermore, Muhammad is said to have been born in 53 BH (570 CE) in [2]. www.understanding-islam.com uses both before Hijra and Jahiliyyah in [3]. An Islamic book [4] and a life of Abu Bakr [5] use before Hijra years. So some "before Hijra" years are in common use in Islamic literature. — Joe Kress (talk) 07:40, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course, some dates around hijra times are sometimes referred to as "this fact happened NN years before Hijra", but this is limited to a few decades, less than a century. In no book of history you will find, for instance, Roman Empire dates expressed like, say: "546 BH" or something alike. The problem is also linked with the fact that up to a certain time years were "full years" and not lunar years as in Islamic times, so years before hijra should be calculated in another way. I think that wikipedia calendar calculating such years in this way is quite nonsense. --93.32.52.197 (talk) 00:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Admitting that less than a century of years are sometimes identified as "before Hijra" was excluded by your first edit. So both of us agree that a limited number of years are identified as "before Hijra". However, "Jahiliyyah" (the age of ignorance) cannot be stated as the reason that more years are not so identified unless you provide a reliable source which explicitly links "Jahiliyyah" with years "before Hijra". The source should be in English because this is the English Wikipedia. "Full years" vs lunar years is a separate issue already discussed in the article under History concerning the meaning of "Nasi", and on this talk page immediately above, beginning at #Fictional intercalary month. — Joe Kress (talk) 21:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Pre-Islamic pilgrimage

This line

Other scholars, both Muslim[5][6] and Western,[7][8] concur that it was originally a lunar calendar, but about 200 years before the Hijra it was transformed into a lunisolar calendar containing an intercalary month added from time to time to keep the pilgrimage within the season of the year when merchandise was most abundant for Bedouin buyers.

is confusing to me. If the Hijra was Mohamed' move from Mecca to Medina (and presumably the beginning of Islam) then this change in Calendar calculation took place before the existence of Islam (or so it reads). Why then is there a reference to Pilgrimage in the same sentence when none could possibly have existed when this change took place? Did other types of pilgrimages occur prior to the establishment of Islam? If so, shouldn't there be a distinction made between that and the Islamic definition?Hschlarb (talk) 03:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The pilgrimage to Mecca or Hajj existed long before Muhammad. Indeed, according to Islamic tradition, it has existed since the time of Abraham, who built the Kaaba, its main focus, in some form, also according to Islamic tradition. The main purpose of the pilgrimage was to vist the Kaaba, to worship the idols around it, and to attend the annual fair held there to buy merchandise. Muhammad destroyed the idols, but otherwise continued to observe the pilgrimage. Of course, several Islamic elements have been added to pilgrimage, such as a visit to Mount Arafat in commemoration of Muhammad's Farewell Sermon, the Stoning of the Devil, and circling the Kaaba seven times (Tawaf). The annual fair now takes the form of Eid al-Adha. — Joe Kress (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. I see traditional patterns that move from religion to religion. Christianity converts Sol Invictus into Christmas. Islam converts a pilgrimage to a pagan site into something more focussed. Judaism must also have an equivalent. You got to go with what works.Hschlarb (talk) 02:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Muslims believe that Islam was created by God and the first muslim was Adam. The pilgrimage to the kaaba begun by the muslim prophet Abraham was corrupted over time into a pagan festival. The islamic pilgrimage isn't an adaptation from another religion, rather it is a restoration of the original muslim tradition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdullah PBA (talk • contribs) 04:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Days of the week in Urdu?

The days of the week should just be listed in Arabic (without Urdu translations). As much as I love Urdu, this is an English language article about the Hijri calender, which is in Arabic. Urdu is not even the most common language spoken among Muslims, so better just leave that to the Urdu article (the Persian as well). The Persian days of the week could go in an article describing the Persian calendar system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.75.198 (talk • contribs) 08:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup of article

I have eliminated most redundancies, some incoherences between the propositions presented in different sections, some factual errors, some dubious statements, and tried to improve style and readibility.Aster77 (talk) 11:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)