Talk:Warsaw Uprising

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Featured? The article needs a lot of work to be done.

As per my edits, there is a huge amount of work to be done to meet the FA criteria. A small list of what should be done follows:

1. Add references where needed (about 40 sentences for now, and I haven't fully read two sections...).
2. Look through #W-hour and #Capitulation and correct all the untrue sentences, expand these section a bit.
3. expand #Eve of the battle (and Lead up to the Warsaw Uprising as well) to cover more political and military reasons and actions taken by the AK just few days before the Uprising, #Capitulation to include information about the AK leaving Warsaw, about Gen. Okulicki taking the position of Commander of the Home Army and the reasons of Bór-Komorowski going to slavery, shorten #Soviet stance (remove doubled information, write more about Berling's landings in Warsaw).
4. do the whole to-do list (e.g. include Cultural representations of the Warsaw Uprising into the main article, polish the style, copy-edit, remove red links, proofread and so on)

I feel the article doesn't meet the FA criteria for now. There were and still are bits of untrue statements -- e.g. the sentence stating it was Bór-Komorowski who signed the capitulation order in the presence of von dem Bach-Zelewski. In fact, it was not him--the act of capitulation was signed by Kazimierz Iranek-Osmecki, Zygmunt Dobrowolski and Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski. The article contains many such examples and they all need to be re-written or removed. --Teodor Jan Ranicki (talk) 16:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

You can start right away, feel free to improve the article. By definition, no WP article is "ready". //Halibutt 17:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I second Halibutt. WU has fallen behind our standards, and keeps on falling, despite our occasional attempts to improve it. Help from a new editor would be vastly appreciated! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

L-hour

I see in the talk archive some discussion about "W-hour" as opposed to "L-hour". Polish radio says "w" stands for "battle for freedom". Davies admits in a frustratingly patronising way that he's translated as many Polish words as possible into English. (He also contracts everyone's surnames to an initial letter because he thinks Polish surnames are too difficult for English readers. Paradoxically, I find this makes his book more difficult to read rather than less.) Anyhow, I wonder if his "L-hour" is "Liberation-hour"? I don't speak Polish, but an internet-based translation gives "Wybawienie" as meaning "Liberation". Any comments? DrKiernan (talk) 11:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, Davies, p.430, does says "L" stood for Liberation. I think this may be a fair but loose translation of "Wybuch". DrKiernan (talk) 08:51, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

It may not. "W" in the W-hour probably means "Wybuch", but I also recall seeing it could stand for "Wystąpienie"; however, both of these words do not mean "Liberation" ("Wybawienie"). I will have to look it up in some archives ("Polskie Siły Zbrojne", v. III "Armia Krajowa" should do), as neither Kirchmayer, nor Borkiewicz go into details in here; the Internet isn't a good source in here as well, as results in Google do vary a lot. Tomasz W. Kozłowski (talk) 13:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

My first thought would be w for wolność (Polish for freedom...). Second - wyzwolenie (liberation). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, I went to library yesterday and looked the whole thing up in some books ("Polskie Siły Zbrojne", "Studium Polski Podziemnej" -- google it for more information). As far as I see, and I have seen the original plan of Rowecki [Raport Operacyjny W-154], there was no information about what does the "W" letter stand for. However, Rowecki has mentioned the word "wybuch" (outbreak), so we can suspect it is what "W" means. There are two ways, then: (1) no specification of "W" was given and (2) the meaning of the letter was given in the interior correspondence and orders of AK, not in the correspondence between AK's Commander and Commander in Chief. Any ideas how to solve this problem? Tomasz W. Kozłowski (talk) 12:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Andrew Borowiec, who fought in the uprising, says in his book (p. 79) that "W" stands for walka meaning "combat". DrKiernan (talk) 09:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

• I've recently bought myself Przygoński's Powstanie warszawskie w sierpniu 1944 r. and he definitely says "W" stands for "Wystąpienie" meaning "outbreak" or "intervention" (military). Tomasz W. Kozłowski (talk) 15:08, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Weapons

Weapon list on 1 August: "300 machine pistols" and "60 submachine guns", is wrong, but I don't know what author understood under this terms. There was probably not one machine pistol in the whole uprising - most probably it refers simply to submachine guns, but what is 60 then? Pibwl ←« 23:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

You're probably right. I don't know much about firearms but I'm guessing that one of these (probably the 300) is supposed to be the Blyskawica gun which in the relevant article is interchangeably called either "submachine gun" or "machine pistol". It's possible that the 60 refers to RKMs - not sure what the English translation is but I think they were Light machine guns - maybe like an earlier version of the Soviet RPKs. That seems like a lot of RKMs though.radek (talk) 00:49, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Right, an equivalent of RKM is LMG (although LMG covers also somewhat heavier weapons, known in Poland as LKM, like Lewis gun, or UKM, like MG-34 ("universal machine gun")). The correct English term for weapons like Błyskawica and MP40 is submachine gun (a confusion might come from a fact, that submachine gun in Polish is "pistolet maszynowy"). Pibwl ←« 14:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I've changed this to "300 submachine guns" and "60 assault rifles", as estimated by pl:Aleksander Gieysztor and given by pl:Władysław Bartoszewski, but I don't know the makes. DrKiernan (talk) 08:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Seems probable. Only assault rifles available could be MP-43/Stg-44. Submachine guns were of course a variety of Stens, Błyskawicas, MP-38s/-40s and other less popular models. Pibwl ←« 01:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Can we get a ref for the number of weapons produced/captured during the uprising? I've added the refs for the vehicles and some other items; one of the captured SdKfz's even has an article on pl wiki: pl:Szary Wilk (transporter opancerzony).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I've removed Tiger tank - where did you find it? :-) There were certainly none on the Polish side - unless some miraculous source has been discovered recently, that I don't know about :-) (there was probably one PzKpfw-IV captured, but it was lost some hour after, in a stupid way, without any combat action, when a soldier just drove it accidentally towards the German side). And there was also Jagdpanzer 38 captured, which might be added, but it stood in vain as a reserve, until a building collapsed upon it. Pibwl ←« 01:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Tiger is mentioned here: "German Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger. One tank was captured on August 4th in Ochota district. It was pressed into service but was lost on the same day." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

There's no reliable source saying it was Tiger. Probably it refers to the same vehicle, which, according to Jan Tarczyński "Pojazdy powstania warszawskiego", was most probably PzKpfw.IV (there is no material reference). However, due to its very short career, lack of combat usage, and probably even lack of "commissioning" as insurgent vehicle, it's not worth to be mentioned as insurgents' weapon. On contrary, two Panthers created an "armoured platoon" and were actively used. I have doubts if Jagdpanzer 38 deserves to be listed - it could be used, but it wasn't. Pibwl ←« 19:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

A question

I don't understand the sentence "It became obvious that the advancing Red Army might not come to Poland as a liberator but rather as "our Allies' ally."[8]" Could the editors make it clear? Vb (talk) 11:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Ally of our allies doesn't mean our ally. I am not sure how to make it more clear...? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

hmm, i try to make it clear. Poland was attacked in 1939 both by Germans and USSR. USSR attacked Poland on 17th september... They make us "knife into back" (i'ts my translation, i hope you understand it) because Polish army was still fighting. Next, nazis and USSR shared Poland between themselves. So, west Poland came into Nazis and east came into USSR. You know that nazis killed many Poles and Judes but the same happened in polish east teritory (just search something about masacre in Katyń). In 1944, when after Yalta Poland was sold to USSR by Churchill and Roosevelt we didn't know what Russians would make with Poland. And they made new Axis here. Red Army once again started to kill Poles, soldiers of Home Army etc. During the II World War we had two enemies. Sorry for my english, i hope you understand it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.54.176.34 (talk) 09:24, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear 80.54.176.34. Although the facts you presented are correct, your interpretation is correct only partially. I absolutely agree that Katyn massacre was an outcrying crime. I agree that Stalin had to take some measure to support Warsaw uprising. However, I cannot fully agree with your other points. Although Polish army was still fighting, it became clear that Poland was doomed: France appeared to be unable, or unwilling, to attack Germany from the west, the UK had neither army nor capabilities to deliver any substantial help to Poland. With regards to the Soviet "stub in the back", let me remind you that during pre-war period Soviet-Polish relations were between hostile to moderately hostile (not only due to the Soviets). In addition, in 1938-39 Poland vehemently opposed to any anti-Hitler pact where the USSR would participate. Although different point of view exist on that account, many reputable western historians think that that silly position of the Poles eventually lead to a failure of anti-Hitler triple alliance negotiations. Therefore, the Poles may be partially (note, I write "partially") responsible for WWII outbreak. Let me also remind you that eastern Poland, occupied by the USSR, was situated generally east from so called Curzon Line, and the Poles were a minority there (although a considerable minority). Therefore, I see no considerable difference between the seizure of eastern Poland by the Soviets and the seizure of Český Těšín with the surrounding area by Poland.You also forget that as a result of WWII the territory of Poland decreased insignificantly, as Poland acquired valuable territories in Silesia, Pomerania, East Prussia etc. With regards to killing of Polish civilians, although everyone agrees that that took place, no evidences exist that it was an official policy of Soviet authorities (as opposed to Nazis). Home Army was a paramilitary formation, not civilians, and I am not sure about who attacked first. You also forget about Polish military units fighting on the Soviet side.
Once again, I don't claim you are completely wrong. My point is that everything was not as simple as you are trying to represent.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

link to documentary film

Can be added link to documentary film Forgotten Soldiers? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UumKe0uwwM&feature=related It's worth to promote this film. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.175.187.5 (talk) 23:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

A complete failure

The Warsaw Uprising was a complete failure.Not only in military aspect, but also in political aspect.Former Soviet Union dominated Poland for more than 40 years, after the complete failure of this uprising.Too much destruction and deaths, for nothing good.Stalin, not Hitler or Poland won this battle; without any shoot.Please, I'm not a communist.Agre22 (talk) 05:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)agre22

Numbers of KILLED

again here we have revisionist pro-terrorist editors claiming Germans lost more dead than the Poles. GET REAL, Germans had the armor, artillery, and air power, futhermore EXPERIENCE, combat hardened troops. Poles had, next to nothing. These numbers of "permanent loses" ("KIA/MIA", as put on the article) 15 200 for Poles, 16 000 for Germans just arent real and need to be rectified and replaced with reality based numbers. 91.154.204.152 (talk) 04:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Berlingowcy

I probably didn't understand something but the info box looks a little bit inconsistent. Berlingowcy are listed in the casualties section, but aren't mentioned in the belligerent section, although, AFAIK, they weren't subordinated to the Polish Underground State. It is also not completely clear for me why Berling is absent in the commanders' list. --Paul Siebert (talk) 05:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)