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:::Please, write it as in the source text, or at least in that perspective. (I never said that it should be whitewashed, I´m letting it out until you find some solution, whenever you have time). I am clearly (far from being alone) in favor of saying expressions like:(exemple) '''The Nazi regime''' instead of '''Germans'''. [[User:FkpCascais|FkpCascais]] ([[User talk:FkpCascais|talk]]) 14:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
:::Please, write it as in the source text, or at least in that perspective. (I never said that it should be whitewashed, I´m letting it out until you find some solution, whenever you have time). I am clearly (far from being alone) in favor of saying expressions like:(exemple) '''The Nazi regime''' instead of '''Germans'''. [[User:FkpCascais|FkpCascais]] ([[User talk:FkpCascais|talk]]) 14:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


::::You still fail to pinpoint how does "raped by some local Serbs" (in the articles) mean anything substantially different from "Women were the victims of indiscriminate rape [...] and some local Serbs used the occasion to exact private revenge." (in the source) except that it omits the revenge part (which is, may I say, fairly obvious from the context and largely irrelevant). [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user|talk]]) 14:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
::::You still fail to pinpoint how does "raped by some local Serbs" (in the article) mean anything substantially different from "Women were the victims of indiscriminate rape [...] and some local Serbs used the occasion to exact private revenge." (in the source) except that it omits the revenge part (which is, may I say, fairly obvious from the context and largely irrelevant). [[User:No such user|No such user]] ([[User talk:No such user|talk]]) 14:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:36, 21 July 2009

cleaned it up a bit Guinnog 21:15, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Germans in Hungary

The numbers of Danube Swabians livng in hungary now are cited from the German wiki article [1], but seems to be wrong (see discussion page there). According to the latest Hungarian census(2001), the number of all ethnic Germans (which is not limited to Danube Swabians alone) should be about 120,000 (1.2% of a total population of about 10 million). As such, I think it needs to be corrected, and/or if alternative sources exist, there should another sentence dealing with that and indicating the source, after the official census results are given. As for German mayors in Hungary, I am not sure about that, and this sentence (oddly enough) seems to apply to Romania. The mayor of a major city (Sibiu) is German (see there, and Klaus Johannis), as well as mayors of smaller towns -- see DFDR. There could be more discussion on the topic, but I will leave it here. 19:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


English sources for the English language Wiki

Sources for the English Wikipedia need to be in English. English readers should be able to read them, and Wiki editors should be able to check them.

Also, even without being able to read German, it is obvious that the German version is largely without in-text citations. The problem is carried over to this article.

24.130.11.114 (talk) 06:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you want neutrality move to Switzerland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.237.79.140 (talk) 10:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The mass rape

FkpCascais, you seem to have a problem that "some local Serbs" participated in the rapes, but not with "Red Army soldiers", and you claim that "this sounds very offensive". Like I explained, the source, written by a Serb historian, in the pages 54/55 says that "Women from the German minority were the victims of indiscriminate rape by Red Army soldiers [...] and some local Serbs used the occasion to exact private revenge." As far as I can tell, "and some local Serbs" accurately reflects the meaning of the original (we may not, remind you, copy and paste from sources), nothing has been cherry-picked from the source except for really relevant parts, and I don't have an axe to grind concerning the issue. Selectively omitting from the sources only the facts we don't like is called tendentious editing. The said events took place 60 years ago so I fail to see how anyone can be possibly offended. No such user (talk) 07:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Omiting the rest of the sentence changes much of the meaning. Do you have a problem writting that was in REVENGE? It also looks to me that way. I don´t know, needer care about Red Army soldiers (should I?) but I do about Serbs. The text you´re having as a source it is quite clear, so, if you can transmite the sense that sentence has in the source text, than OK, otherwise it sounds like simple offending (like some Serbs did it for sport). If you say that is not so important becouse happend 60 years ago, wy do you then care so much? FkpCascais (talk) 08:42, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
By using the kind of sentence you´ve wrote, you are inflaming hateriot between the two people, and transmiting it (exageratedly) to the next generations. Do you have some interess in doing this? I can tell you that I have been to Germany, have many German friends, and I like Germany and its people in their various aspects. It doesn´t really metter what I think, but I wanted you to know, so I have no interess in missinterpreting wrongly the German suffering in the past. But, as a Serbian, with familiar origins from the region, I can tell you that the way it was written, it doesn´t represent the common history and actuallity of both people. Serbian and German relations in the past have been much better that the ones imposed by pseudo-historians in service of the propagandas of the past regimes of both countries. Wy insisting in continuing with that policy? The sentence clearly doesn´t state what you say it means, and, if you really want to insist, I can tell you that then you should really have to think about including the reasons why (you and this historian say)those Serbs took revenge, becouse that would have than the same relation with the subject. What I can sincerelly tell you is that the Red Army soldiers joined with Partizans(not Serbs, as people) took revenge, but it wasn´t only against Germans... Hoping any of this is going to be necessary, Regards. FkpCascais (talk) 13:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


You were told twice what the original was. If you thought that the sentence does not reflect it, the answer is to rephrase it, not to remove it altogether. You accuse me for the second time that I have some agenda about it. I assure you I don't. I can not ever agree, however, that because something was done IN REVENGE makes it less wrong. Raping of women is never excusable. Further, I don't believe that being silent about past crimes leads in any way to reconciliation, as long as the story is told openly and frankly, without hidden agenda. The article is equally frank about "Banat Germans who served the Nazis gained notoriety for crimes against Jews and Serbs during the Banat (1941–1944) period. Led by the infamous 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen, they alienated themselves from their non-German neighbors." It is understandable, but never excusable, that some people wanted the revenge by all means. Sorry, but that removal is whitewashing.
If you want to know the background, I rewrote that section after I removed a worse inflammatory language [2] and then did some research myself, having found very the thorough and honest source [3]. It is certainly open to improvement, but it is not open to whitewashing. That is not a way to reconciliation. Even if it were, it is not a job of an encyclopedia (or journalist) to omit the inconvenient facts because they might ostensibly hamper a political goal. No such user (talk) 13:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And what are you talking about "the ones imposed by pseudo-historians in service of the propagandas of the past regimes of both countries." The source is written by a Serbian and a German historian and published by an Italian institute. Why should they have an agenda? Where do you see "pseudo-historians" or "propaganda"? No such user (talk) 13:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please, write it as in the source text, or at least in that perspective. (I never said that it should be whitewashed, I´m letting it out until you find some solution, whenever you have time). I am clearly (far from being alone) in favor of saying expressions like:(exemple) The Nazi regime instead of Germans. FkpCascais (talk) 14:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You still fail to pinpoint how does "raped by some local Serbs" (in the article) mean anything substantially different from "Women were the victims of indiscriminate rape [...] and some local Serbs used the occasion to exact private revenge." (in the source) except that it omits the revenge part (which is, may I say, fairly obvious from the context and largely irrelevant). No such user (talk) 14:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]