Template talk:Sustainable energy

Use of this template

See Template talk:Renewable energy sources#Template: Sustainable energy -- Johnfos (talk) 21:27, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion this template should not be used anywhere, as it is a massive violation of WP:NOR. In fact I am just going to redirect it to the Renewable energy sources template. 199.125.109.81 (talk) 13:26, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

In general, templates cannot be NOR. In view of your objections, I have renamed it to a more inclusive category. LK (talk) 15:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

It is when you include items that have nothing to do with sustainable energy, like flex fuel vehicles and hybrids. I still would not recommend this template be used anywhere because it is way too huge. These belong at the bottom of an article, not at the top. And it is such an eclectic combination of articles as to be useless. I would classify it simply as some of the articles you are interested in, and as such should only be used on your user page, not on any article. 199.125.109.81 (talk) 12:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

And before you start spamming it all over the place, please get consensus that the template is a)useful and b) properly designed. As it stands it is neither. However, what you could do, is redesign it so that it goes at the bottom of the articles, like the {{Peak oil}} template, and lose the goofy green colors. This is an encyclopedia, not a popular magazine. It needs to be useful, not hip. Using "green" for "green energy" is simply not appropriate. You will also need to restrict the articles linked to ones that are directly related to sustainable energy, although I would point out that renewable energy is synonymous with sustainable energy, other than, to some people, some forms of nuclear that do not currently exist. And creating a template that included renewable energy topics with nuclear topics is a recipe for a nighmare. 199.125.109.81 (talk) 13:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear 199.125.109.81, Please do not mass undo an editor's work, so as to impose your preferences. That is neither civil nor appropriate. I note that you object to the size of this navbox, but this nav box is small compared with the majority of navboxes on wikipedia. In my opinion, the contents are all related to sustainable energy, as I have mainly followed the links on the page sustainable energy to put this navbox together. But if you think some links should be removed, please do so and leave a reason here on the talk page. However, please be prepared that others may disagree with your and add them back. LK (talk) 15:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I will wait to see if others add them back. So far every comment on your template has been in opposition to it. If you can get it to the point that people like it, sure they will add it. But there is no excuse for you adding it. You are just spamming if you do. 199.125.109.81 (talk) 19:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Currently, most of the pages that this navbox is sitting on have no other navboxes, as such I think this navbox is useful, as having a navbox there helps people find other relevant articles. LK (talk) 15:12, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

That in my opinion is a complete misunderstanding of the purpose of a navblock. It is not a suggestion of "you might also like these articles", it is a list of closely defined articles to allow readers to flip back and forth between them. There is nothing wrong with every article not having a navblock, let alone any article not having a navblock. Large navblocks in particular are to be avoided like the plague, as they take up valuable real estate at the beginning of the article. 199.125.109.81 (talk) 19:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

In terms of format and usefulness I would compare this sidebar to Template:Recycling. However, there are a number of topics currently included that seem to be weakly related rather than sub-topics of Sustainable energy. I would suggest that conservation and transportation article links are removed, as though it can be argued that they are related to sustainability, they are not examples of sustainable energy.—Teahot (talk) 15:30, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. Your points are well taken. Although I recognize your concerns, and I understand why you make them, I would like to note that on the sustainable energy page it states that, "Sustainable energy sources are most often regarded as including all renewable sources, such as biofuels, solar power, wind power, wave power, geothermal power and tidal power. It usually also includes technologies that improve energy efficiency." And so I think the section on efficiency should remain. (BTW I did not write that paragraph, but the emphasis is mine.) However, I do agree that some of the articles are only tangentially related, and can be removed. (Recycling for example.) LK (talk) 17:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Well you can unwrite that highlighted section. Efficiency is important, but not a part of sustainable energy. Efficiency is important for three reasons. 1) If you have a limited supply of energy the quickest way to increase your supply is to increase your efficiency and use less. 2) It is stupid to waste energy needlessly regardless of your supply. 3) Efficiency in itself does not pollute more, it pollutes less, and is therefore good for the environment. So no, efficiency is not a part of sustainable energy, but instead is a part of any energy policy. Do you believe everything you read in Wikipedia? (Don't answer that - I don't want to know.) 199.125.109.81 (talk) 19:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

That was a personal comment and just rude. Please try an be WP:civil. LK (talk) 19:37, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I would also like to note that several non-profits and other organizations define sustainable energy as any technologiesthat increase the amount of energy available for future generations, including increased efficiency etc. For example Invest, an technologically orienteered nonprofit organization states: "Our Definition of Sustainable Energy: Any energy generation, efficiency & conservation source where: Resources are available to enable massive scaling to become a significant portion of energy generation, long term, preferably 100 years.. " [1] LK (talk) 19:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Efficiency and conservation are important parts of any energy policy, but are not unique to sustainability. Anyone who includes them in a definition of energy is stretching the definition of energy - they are not a source of energy, but if you use them you have more energy that can be used for other things. We used to call that negawatts. There may be an article about it. 199.125.109.81 (talk) 06:20, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, the book Sustainable energy by J. W. Tester, et. al from MIT Press, define sustainable energy as: "As dynamic harmony between equitable availability of energy-intensive goods and services to all people and the preservation of the earth for future generations." And states that "The solution will lie in finding sustainable energy sources and more efficient means of converting and utilizing energy."

And,the book also suggests another well know definition: "development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs".

Since that academic book from MIT press is a reliable source, I believe that its clear that sustainable energy is about more than just renewable energy sources. LK (talk) 20:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, anytime someone puts two words together, I tend to look up the meaning of each word and come to my own conclusion as to the meaning of the term, I guess. If I was writing a book on Sustainable Energy, I might put in a grandiose expectation of sustainable energy, but I would not write "the definition of sustainable energy is a dynamic harmony between equitable availability of energy-intensive goods and services to all people and the preservation of the earth for future generations." Also, as pointed out, efficiency is not unique to sustainable energy, but is a part of any energy policy. 199.125.109.81 (talk) 06:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Is this template appropriate?

Since there has been some controversy over this, I would like to call for an RfC to settle this issue. Questions:

• Is this template, Template:Sustainable energy, appropriate and/or useful?
• Should this template be displayed on the pages that it links to?

Thanks, -LK (talk) 20:32, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• I think it is useful. The main question off-wiki and possibly here too may be how to prevent apologists for the petroleum industry and their familiars arguing that "sustainable" should mean "slightly less damaging". Flexible-fuel vehicle is a dubious inclusion in my view. Ben MacDui 08:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
• Weak Support It is useful but needs trimming to be fully appropriate. The template should include examples of sustainable energy but not related topics, such as transport and conservation. Other templates already exist for these associated topics. The second point seems moot as the point of such a sidebar template is that it gets displayed on the pages it links to, otherwise it may as well be a category (a good argument for limiting the number of included links).—Teahot (talk) 09:05, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
• The only place it is useful in its present form is on a user page. One can simply not make a list of a huge number of articles and think that it is going to be useful. Articles simply do not have the space for huge infoboxes, and they contribute nothing. It could be cleaned up, have the colors replaced with neutral colors like on {{peak oil}}, and used at the bottom of articles, however, but that is up to the discretion of whoever is working on the article, and should not be automatic just because the link is on the navbox. Using green for green energy is fine for a popular magazine, but not acceptable for an encyclopedia. It is just plain goofy. 199.125.109.98 (talk) 12:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

• Not useful. I echo some of 199.125.109s comments. One can simply not make a list of a links for a large number of articles and simply think that it is going to be useful. The front end of articles simply do not have the space for large infoboxes, and they contribute little except clutter and distraction in articles which already have a large number of links in the text. However, we already have the compact "Renewable energy sources" template, shown to the right, and this has served well on many renewable energy articles. There is no way that this should be replaced by the new "Sustainable energy" template. And no way that we should have this and the new template as well on any given page. Johnfos (talk) 18:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
• Not particularly useful. The various types of use of energy (passive solar/solar thermal for heating, for example) are also parts of Solar energy - why include them twice? Conservation and efficiency is an important part of anything economical and sustainable, not only power. This template is less focused than "Renewable energy sources", less coherent in content, and takes more space on a page. MaxVT (talk) 14:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• In conclusion, there are two editors who find it could be useful in some articles, but more who consider it to be of little use. I would suggest not re-adding it to any article that it has been removed from. The issues of trimming it remain, for example, removing conservation and transportation. As an aside, I still think that green is too goofy a color to use, but then, it is also highly likely that I will simply remove it from any article I see it on. 199.125.109.129 (talk) 16:05, 26 July 2009 (UTC)