Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leonardo Ciampa

Leonardo Ciampa

Leonardo Ciampa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

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Vanity article for a non-notable composer/pianist/organist. Only independently verifiable facts about him are a few minor performances in the Boston area. Article has been tagged as needing citations several times over its five year history. Three self-published books do not qualify for notability. Grover cleveland (talk) 19:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: Mr Ciampa appears to be following this AfD discussion on his blog and has invited his blog readers to take part in this discussion. Grover cleveland (talk) 03:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• If he has that many readers, that would indicate notability, no? BonGens (talk) 09:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

There's no indication that Ciampa's blog has many readers. As for his Wikipedia article this page (http://stats.grok.se/en/200908/Leonardo_Ciampa) indicates the article is receiving very few hits aside from editors. Compare to Vladimir Horowitz who's been dead for 20 years: (http://stats.grok.se/en/200908/Vladimir_Horowitz)THD3 (talk) 13:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Then there's no problem of Ciampa's mention of the AfD on his blog, I guess. 66.30.117.55 (talk) 13:26, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• Mr. Cleveland is incorrect on many points. "Only independently verifiable facts about him are a few minor performances in the Boston area." Untrue. Most of the facts were easily verifiable on amazon.com, bostonglobe.com, as well as leonardociampa.com and faultbook.blogspot.com. "a few minor performances in the Boston area." Untrue. Major performances have occurred at Sanders Theatre, Harvard University, and important cathedrals in Europe including the Stefansdom in Vienna. All of these facts are easily verifiable on the web. To throw a "citation" tag after practically every sentence, without researching any of it, is a clear case of vandalism. 68.162.214.17 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC).

• leonardociampa.com and faultbook.blogspot.com are personal sites run by Mr Ciampa. "Consortium Internationale Compositorum", cited as a source and publisher for some of Mr Ciampa's works, "was founded in 2008 by Leonardo Ciampa and Andrea Amici.". Ciampa's books are all self-published. Wikipedia notabiliity requires "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." Nearly all the claims about Mr Ciampa in the article are either unsourced or originate, in one way or another, from Mr Ciampa himself. The exceptions are some Boston Globe articles that afford Mr Ciampa only minor mentions that do not meet the Wikipedia criteria for notability. Grover cleveland (talk) 02:59, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• "...some Boston Globe articles that afford Mr Ciampa only minor mentions ..." Untrue. This was a full-length article and documented an important premiere of an orchestral work in an important hall: http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=BG&p_theme=bg&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0F674A084B9BEB7D&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM BonGens (talk) 09:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• This article, which I have just paid $5 to view in the cause of Wikipedia, is a human-interest piece mostly about Ciampa's Italian-American background that says very little about the music and doesn't review the performance. The performance was scheduled to take place at the Strand Theater, whose mission, according to its website, "is to serve as a cultural and educational resource to artists and audiences regardless of race or cultural background, age, ability, gender, economic level, or sexual orientation." Grover cleveland (talk) 14:19, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• According to the 'Globe,' there were two performances, one at the Strand and the other at Sanders Theatre, Harvard University (an important hall). The Pro Arte Orchestra is a well-known, all-professional orchestra, by the way. 64.61.60.146 (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Delete. A vanity article which is primarily being maintained by an anon editor who is probably the article subject. Previous editors GiovaneScuola2006 and LorenzoPerosi1898 (both blocked as a sockpuppets) were most likely the subject as well. Grover cleveland's requests for citation were entirely reasonable and the hostile response by 68.162.214.17 was uncalled for. Further 68.162.214.17's use of the Ciampa's own website and blog do not meet the criteria for WP:Verifiability. Finally, Sander's Theater at Harvard is hardly a major concert venue. If everyone who played there and/or self-published a few books had an article in Wikipedia, the article load would increase ridiculously.THD3 (talk) 02:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Keep.I completely agree that Grover Cleveland's adding {{citation}}: Empty citation (help) to every other sentence constitutes vandalism and ill will in this instance. I don't think there is basis for doubt that Mr. Ciampa is a well-known performer and composer in America and Europe who has played everywhere that the websites say that he has. (By the way, the correct spelling is Stephansdom, not Stefansdom.) It seems probable that User:THD3 and User:Grover cleveland are sock puppets who consistently use the same turns of phrase, edit on the same pages, etc. BonGens (talk) 02:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

BonGens, if you're going to accuse me of being sockpuppets with User:Grover cleveland, you should have the guts to back it up via an administrator. Otherwise, you should delete the claim.THD3 (talk) 11:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. Ciampa is a famous musician. If someone wants to claim that he's lied about places he's played and things he's done, that's ludicrous. Are the Pro Arte Chamber Orchestra and Lavazza Chamber Ensemble also lying that he's performed with them? 66.30.117.55 (talk) 13:38, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

And another user with almost no edit history mysteriously shows up!THD3 (talk) 13:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• Delete. Claims for notability are not supported by reliable external sources. Fails WP:MUSIC. LK (talk) 04:09, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Note. I am recusing myself from all further discussion of this article and removing it from my watch list. In the past 24 hours, I have been accused of sockpuppetry, had my real name and physical location listed, and Leonardo Ciampa has tried to contact me personally. This is not worth my time (especially considering that the article receives so little traffic) and it's definitely not worth the aggravation and lost sleep. Life is too short.THD3 (talk) 14:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• Keep given the six interwiki links (de:Leonardo Ciampa, es:Leonardo Ciampa, fr:Leonardo Ciampa, it:Leonardo Ciampa, la:Lionhardus Ciampa, pt:Leonardo Ciampa). They can't all be wrong. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:54, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen this argument in an AfD before. A few points:

• Notability requires coverage in independent reliable secondary sources. Interwiki links are not reliable sources, and they often are not independent of each other. None of the interwiki links, as far as I can tell, cites any sources not in the English Wikipedia article, and none gives any reason for Ciampa to be notable beyond what is in the English article.
• If a user is capable of creating a vanity articles in English, he is equally capable of creating vanity articles in other languages, especially given the easy availability of translation tools on the internet.
• Since English is the biggest Wikipedia and has the largest coverage of many areas, many other Wikipedias proceed by copying and translating articles from the English Wikipedia. I have noticed this in the field of classical music (where I am an active editor).
• Other language Wikipedias may have different criteria for inclusion from the English Wikipedia. So, even if Latin Wikipedia, say, is "not wrong" in having an article on Ciampa, it doesn't mean that English Wikipedia needs one.
• In sum, I really don't think the existence or nonexistence of interwiki articles is a valid argument for (or against) an AfD. Grover cleveland (talk) 15:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. As a composer and author, Ciampa is notable enough. High profile organist gigs cement notability. Binksternet (talk) 16:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• If you have reliable sources that he is notable as composer, author or organist, could you add those to the article? Then I would be happy to withdraw the AfD. As of now, I don't see any sources for this. Cheers, Grover cleveland (talk) 21:46, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• You apparently think the Boston Globe article is deficient. I think it suffices. The whole article is about Ciampa and his Sicilian suite, including the punning title which reads "His Suite Smells Of Success", yet you complain of it being "only minor mentions" unworthy of Wikipedia. I disagree—it is enough to establish notability. Binksternet (talk) 00:35, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

• I just don't see how it meets WP:MUSICBIO or WP:COMPOSER. Grover cleveland (talk) 00:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Strong Keep. I recently heard Leonardo play his own works which were inventive and musical. I also heard him improvise. He invited the audience to submit a hymn for his improvisation. All was quiet and so I volunteered “Lift High The Cross” for he tune. He did a masterful improvisation, starting with a minor variation on a melodic fragment of the tune, progressing through several other variations and ending with a very busy fugue. His technic is outstanding and his composing style is mature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.173.23.178 (talk) 21:17, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

— 72.173.23.178 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Strong keep. The malicious campaign by Grover Cleveland is highly unfortunate, and unhealthy for Wiki. Leonardo Ciampa is an extremely well-known performer and composer. (He has been reviewed numerous times in the Globe, by the way -- Richard Buell, Ellen Pfeiffer, et al.) 64.61.60.146 (talk) 14:56, 12 August 2009 (UTC)