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{{GA nominee|02:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC)|page=1| subtopic=Theatre, film, and drama|status=on hold}}
{{GA|19:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)|topic=Theatre, film, and drama|page=1|oldid=308732905}}
{{WikiProject Shakespeare|class=B|importance=Mid}}
{{WikiProject Shakespeare|class=GA|importance=Mid}}
{{dyktalk|8 August|2009|{{*mp}}... that one critic claims [[William Hazlitt]]'s ''(pictured)'' view of poets in '''''[[Characters of Shakespear's Plays]]''''' is "perhaps the most original, and surely the most heretical, idea in the entire range of his criticism"?}}
{{dyktalk|8 August|2009|{{*mp}}... that one critic claims [[William Hazlitt]]'s ''(pictured)'' view of poets in '''''[[Characters of Shakespear's Plays]]''''' is "perhaps the most original, and surely the most heretical, idea in the entire range of his criticism"?}}


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In short, I'm still hanging in there. You may not see a constant stream of changes from me, but rest assured I am continuing to work on this in one way or another. --[[User:Alan W|Alan W]] ([[User talk:Alan W|talk]]) 03:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
In short, I'm still hanging in there. You may not see a constant stream of changes from me, but rest assured I am continuing to work on this in one way or another. --[[User:Alan W|Alan W]] ([[User talk:Alan W|talk]]) 03:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
:I forgot to add Jeffrey's review for some reason. It will probably take a while to find reviews spanning each generation (if it is possible - it is hard to find reviews between 1860 and 1890 on most works). And feel free to make any changes that will blunt the Lamb closet play idea. I will see what I can find on later 19th-century reviews. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 14:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
:I forgot to add Jeffrey's review for some reason. It will probably take a while to find reviews spanning each generation (if it is possible - it is hard to find reviews between 1860 and 1890 on most works). And feel free to make any changes that will blunt the Lamb closet play idea. I will see what I can find on later 19th-century reviews. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]]) 14:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

{{Talk:Characters of Shakespear's Plays/GA1}}

Revision as of 19:34, 18 August 2009

WikiProject iconShakespeare GA‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Shakespeare, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of William Shakespeare on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
GAThis article has been rated as GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

I've added the project template with a rating as B-quality and Mid-importance. The quality is probably closer to GA than B, but as anything higher than B requires a process be followed I've set it accordingly. The priority for the project I've set to Mid, since the various articles on Shakespeare himself and on the plays there must take precedence. Please do feel free to change that if you disagree with my reasoning. --Xover (talk) 12:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some Suggestions

In the first paragraphs of the Essays section:

To say that Hazlitt was apprenticed in the theatre is misleading, suggesting that he was an actor. He had a lifelong love of the theatre and worked for some years as a drama critic, but I wouldn't think of that as the same thing as being "apprenticed in the theatre".

I wouldn't mention Edmund Kean in this context. He was an actor by profession, and it is not likely he would have sided with Lamb and Hazlitt's belief that Shakespeare's plays are better read than viewed on stage.

You say that Hazlitt approved of Schlegel's method. It would help if you could briefly state what that method is. It is also true that Hazlitt disagreed with what he thought of as a "mystical" element in Schlegel's criticism, even though, yes, you are right, he thought highly of it for the most part.

"The purpose of the work is to study the form of tragedy." Only to a small degree. The purpose was to discuss all of the plays, with emphasis on the characters. Hazlitt believed that the tragedies were the greatest of the plays and the four you mention the best of those, as you say. But it is misleading to state simply that the purpose of Characters is to study the form of tragedy. Hazlitt doesn't even spend that much time considering dramatic form. --Alan W (talk) 04:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think that in terms of expansion, Kean, Lamb, and Schlegel will each need their own paragraphs. That would fix the problem, no? Also, on the "form of tragedy" - I pulled that from Kinnaird. p. 173 and onwards "his overriding concern with tragedy", "Kean-inspired impetus of the book as a defense of Shakespeare's supremacy as a tragic dramatist", "Yet this statement of tragedy's moral power...", "Thus his fascination with the 'truth' of Shakespeare's mastery of 'passion' could still be felt as one with a faith in the transfiguring beneficence of tragedy...", etc. And the "apprentice in theatre" should have said theatre criticism. It could be further elaborated as Kinnaird does to say that he did so by attending plays. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, maybe separate paragraphs. It's a matter of separating and clarifying the ideas expressed. Clarifying, for example, that you don't mean that the book is only about tragedy or only about the dramatic form of tragedy. As for Kean, yes, Kean inspired Hazlitt in some ways; again, that inspiration just has to be distinguished from the belief that Hazlitt shared with Lamb, that Shakespeare's plays are experienced to the fullest by reading them, not by seeing them on stage. If Kean had anything to do with that idea, perhaps it was by reminding Hazlitt that, as good as Kean was, even he could not always rise to the demands of certain characters and situations. I think Kinnaird intimates as much on pp. 172-73. Anyhow, I will read on, and comment more later. --Alan W (talk) 00:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Coriolanus

It's late here and I haven't time to comment much today. I will focus on one sentence:

"As he was treating the work with such an analysis, he slowly became a Whig in political terms and began to accept the monarchial governmental form; to Hazlitt, the problem was not the monarchy but corrupt ministers taking advantage of monarchs."

This assertion needs to be set in perspective by a broader view of Hazlitt's thinking on the subject. To Hazlitt, in most instances, monarchy was the problem. Hazlitt detested the idea of absolute monarchy, showing nothing but contempt for most kings. Of hereditary kings, he wrote: "Any one above the rank of an ideot is supposed capable of exercising the highest functions of royal state." —"What Is the People?" (The Champion, 1817). "We make kings of men, and Gods of stocks and stones.... We only want a peg or loop to hang our idle fancies on, a puppet to dress up...." —"On the Spirit of Monarchy" (The Liberal, 1823). He did grudgingly accept the governmental form of constitutional monarchy, however. In the same essay, "A constitutional king ... is a servant of the public, a representative of the people's wants and wishes, dispensing justice and mercy according to law.... All power is but an unabated nuisance, a barbarous assumption, an aggravated injustice, that is not directed to the common good." --Alan W (talk) 04:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about using the later works in that section. Perhaps down in the theme section? I would hate to retroactively apply his works back on it. I've only had a few instances of that, and that was only when he said something on Shakespeare and a source used it. If a source doesn't apply the later works, then it would be a problem with original research. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"What Is the People?" is not a "later work." It first appeared in 1817, the same year that Characters was published. But I didn't mean to suggest that you cite these specific works. The quotations just provide examples of Hazlitt's views on monarchy. I have never seen anyone, least of all Hazlitt himself, say that to him, the problem was not the monarchy but corrupt ministers.--Alan W (talk) 03:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another sentence: "The character Coriolanus needs to be played in an aristocratic manner, and actors failed in portraying Coriolanus correctly because of their own republican sympathies." Edmund Kean seemed to give a republican interpretation of Coriolanus, but John Kemble had not, and Hazlitt thought him more suitable for the role, as pointed out by Bromwich, p. 318. Hazlitt is talking only about the different ways Kemble and Kean played the role (plebeian vs. aristocrat), not actors with republican sympathies in general. --Alan W (talk) 04:17, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling

Was the original spelled without the "e" at the end of Shakespeare's name? :)--Thecurran (talk) 06:55, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. The article uses variable spellings here. Without the e appears to have been the original spelling, but it also seems to have been normalized to include the e in later editions. One example I found appeared to be the third edition edited by Hazlitt's son; but this could also have been a later imposition. Ottava, can you clarify here? --Xover (talk) 10:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, I notice Hazlitt inscribes the book to Charles Lamb. Is this worth a brief mention in this article somewhere? Do the relevant sources mention Lamb in connection with the subject of this article? --Xover (talk) 10:18, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not only were Lamb and Hazlitt close friends for over twenty-five years, more to the point here is that Hazlitt agreed with Lamb that Shakespeare's plays were best when read rather than viewed on stage, and Lamb was a specialist in the literature of the Elizabethan period; Hazlitt greatly respected Lamb for that. My feeling is that, yes, it would be good if mention of this inscription could somehow be worked logically into the article. There must be something in a secondary source relevant to this matter. --Alan W (talk) 04:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Immediate review uses the spelling. 2nd edition uses the spelling. Edinburgh Review immediately afterward did not. Shakespeare had something like 36 possible ways of spelling his name. Just be happy that only two show up. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 12:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's right. The spelling "Shakespeare" was not really fully established until later years. In Hazlitt's day the dramatist's name was still often spelled differently, depending on publishers' differing house rules. The first edition of the book this article is about definitely spelled it "Shakespear". As you (Ottava Rima) say, the contemporary Edinburgh Review, in its review of Hazlitt's book, spelled it "Shakespeare", which happens to be the spelling that stuck. --Alan W (talk) 03:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alan, I know my speculation and some that I've read, but do you know if it was done for political reasons? I've heard ideas behind it, but it would be interesting if you knew of anything off hand that was more definitive than just a few idle academics theorizing over the differences at the time (especially knowing the background of the Edinburgh Review vs, say, London reviews that referred to Shakespeare in other ways). Ottava Rima (talk) 14:32, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am no expert on the evolution of English orthography. But I doubt that the Edinburgh Review differed from the printer or publishers of Characters in political leanings or from Hazlitt himself in that regard. The editor of the Edinburgh was Francis Jeffrey, whose choice I am assuming it was to spell the name "Shakespeare". He and Hazlitt generally respected each other and were mostly on the same side politically. So I doubt that politics had anything to do with the difference of spelling. --Alan W (talk) 16:50, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mean ER vs Hazlitt, but more of Scotland vs London. The Scots had a strange habit of slipping in key spelling differences. But yeah, just seems to be speculation. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good point about Scotland vs. London. Could be. But, as you say, without anything to back up our ideas, it's just speculation. --Alan W (talk) 19:56, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Macbeth

Except for some awkwardness in phrasing, which can always be smoothed out at a later time, the Hamlet and Lear sections seem fine to me. For the most part, so does the Macbeth. Since I am commenting on what I think are the larger issues at this time, however, I will quote one sentence here that I think is a problem. You (Ottava Rima, for those who haven't been following this discussion) wrote: "Before Hazlitt, Macbeth was seen as a crude play that lacked credibility because of the contradictions in Macbeth's character." You cite Kinnaird in support of this statement. But Kinnaird doesn't really say this. He says, "...perhaps none of Shakespeare's tragedies had been more often accused pf 'Gothic' crudity and barbarism." Kinnaird says nothing about prior criticism of the contradictions in Macbeth's character, just that the play had been often seen as crude and barbaric. The criticism of contradictions in Macbeth's character do, however, enter into Kinnaird's discussion when he notes that (Elmer Edgar) Stoll did make such a criticism of contradictions in Macbeth's character. But Stoll was writing in 1933! Kinnaird points out that, in Hazlitt's insistence on the underlying identity of Macbeth's character, it is as if he were anticipating Stoll's criticism and responding to it. So I think you have to revise your statement, which attributes this criticism of Macbeth's character to a time before Hazlitt, when it was really made more than a century later. --Alan W (talk) 03:56, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was basing the statement off of what Kinnaird says Hazlitt's defense was in the lines that followed after. You cannot defend something unless there were attacks on it. Kinnaird states: "We may best follow the line of Hazlitt's defense if we remind ourselves that the issues of the play's credibility is by no means dead today", which suggests that the ideas used by Stoll are the same statements Hazlitt was defending against because Stoll is using a very old argument. Does that make sense? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think that Hazlitt was arguing against some previous contention that the play was not very believable, yes. But I still also think that to assert specifically that there were contentions that the play lacked credibility because of the contradictions in Macbeth's character is going a little further than your source warrants. Kinnaird very pointedly brings in Stoll as the advocate of that idea, and that was much later. It may be that Hazlitt himself took note of the seeming contradictions in Macbeth's character and then shows that Shakespeare's genius was to preserve the character's unity among all its extremes. However that may be, I do not believe that you should state flat out that "Macbeth was seen as a crude play that lacked credibility because of the contradictions in Macbeth's character." Can you find an earlier source that says that? Johnson? Coleridge? Then fine, cite that source. But Kinnaird does not quite say that. --Alan W (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just looked at Hazlitt's chapter on "Macbeth" again. Even without Kinnaird's statements, Hazlitt's own commentary seems to support the idea only that the play was thought of before him as crude and Gothic. He himself points to Macbeth's character, to how Macbeth's actions result in part from his reaction to circumstances, and to how his character yet retains its essential unity. "The leading features in the character of Macbeth are striking enough, and they form what may be thought of at first only a bold, rude, Gothic outline. By comparing it with other characters of the same author we shall perceive the absolute truth and identity which is observed in the midst of the giddy whirl and rapid career of events." At this point, I don't think we have any definite sources that would support anyone before Hazlitt criticizing the play because there are contradictions in Macbeth's character—or anyone after Hazlitt either, until Stoll. If Hazlitt is defending his idea, the only thing we can see for sure is that it is against anyone's thinking that the character is not a unified one; but no one before then is pointed to as actually having said that much in such a specific way. --Alan W (talk) 04:25, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kinnaird's wording was very clear that Stoll was using the same arguments as those who Hazlitt responded against. However, I will remove the word because I would rather not argue over it. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:03, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind, I can't take it out - Kinnaird relies on the above in order to introduce why Hazlitt is defending against "contradictions" in Macbeth. The Hazlitt quote that follows is what Kinnaird is referring to and can only be understood by explaining why Hazlitt is talking about it. Not discussing this as Kinnaird put it would remove the ability to discuss Macbeth at all. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:08, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What Kinnaird says: "There was good cause for Hazlitt to be concerned with Macbeth 's unity; for perhaps none of the Shakespeare's tragedies had been more often accused of 'Gothic' crudity and barbarism. We may best follow the line of Hazlitt's defense if we remind ourselves that the issue of the play's credibility is by no means dead today; the issue has reappeared in Stoll's celebrated contention that the essential paradox in Macbeth—that so good and noble a man should become a murderer and a butchering tyrant—makes sense only as theatre, not as 'nature' or 'life'."

The words "by no means dead today" and "reappeared" are Kinnaird stating that contradictions aspect was used as a criticism.

The words "by no means dead today" are taken out of context. The context is that "the issue of the play's credibility is by no means dead today...." I grant that it is possible that the contradictions in Macbeth's character were already being seen as something less than credible. I just don't think that Kinnaird places more weight on contradictions in Macbeth's character than on other aspects of the play taken as lacking credibility—except in his forward-looking reference to Stoll. --Alan W (talk) 04:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kinnaird then explains, "There is, to be sure, a 'contradictory principle' at work throughout the play; but the contradictoriness of its sudden 'transitions,' whereby 'every passion brings in its fellow-contrary,' must be seen in the context of a primitive and violent world 'at the farthest bounds of nature,' where 'the action is desperate and the reaction is dreadful.'"

The quote from Hazlitt following the summary by Kinnaird is drawn from what Kinnaird says is Hazlitt's response to the argument Stoll puts forth, and Kinnaird states that Hazlitt is almost prophetic because his words directly match up and contradict Stoll's.

Yet, it is also possible to interpret Kinnaird as implying that no one before Hazlitt had specifically pointed to contradictions in Macbeth's character to the extent that Hazlitt did here. I think that critics of drama in the eighteenth century were more concerned about violations of the Aristotelian classical unities. (Kinnaird mentions that too, but not in the sentence that we are arguing about. You include that above to support your argument, yet it does not appear in your writing about Macbeth; if it did, I would have less reason to complain.) If someone before Hazlitt had specifically pointed out contradictions in Macbeth's character, Kinnaird would have no need to look forward a century for a full exposition of the thesis that Hazlitt appears to argue against. You argue as well as one could, I think, in favor of your point. Yet, my own feeling is that it is still a stretch to say flat out: "Before Hazlitt, Macbeth was seen as a crude play that lacked credibility because of the contradictions in Macbeth's character." It was seen as lacking credibility in a number of ways, including violation of the unities, its barbarism, and so on, and maybe contradictions in character are implied as part of that in Kinnaird's statement, but to make that bald a statement about it, to my mind, does not convey the the full sense of Kinnaird's argument. Well, maybe this is yet another of those areas where we will have to "agree to disagree". --Alan W (talk) 04:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC
I would rather not have to agree to disagree - I would like a compromise. I will try to dig up some stuff on Johnson (as I worked on the pages related to him and he was one of the key figures in mind when Hazlitt was criticizing the previous Shakespeare critics) and see if Johnson is explicit in saying there is a contradiction. I just want the Hazlitt quote to work its way in. If you can find a different way to preface/lead into the quote, then please do. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If there is any further question on the matter, I can either send Duncan Wu an email or just go across town and visit his office and ask him about his perspective on what the passage means. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would be very interested to hear Wu's take on this matter. If he should choose to invite the two of us to discuss this over a beer (I think you get my allusion :-) I would try to make it. I live only a few hundred miles away and it might be possible for me to get down there over a weekend. --Alan W (talk) 04:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll email him when I have a chance. I do not know if he is in town yet (the semester has not yet started). Ottava Rima (talk) 05:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That seems to work. Good job. See, I am glad I forced you to stick around and help. :) Before we know it, this article of ours could be FA level. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:10, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Merchant of Venice

The matter here is right on target, and gives an accurate idea of Hazlitt's concerns, but I'm thinking that the manner of presenting it could use some work. It's a matter of general organization. I would start with the older, traditional view of Shylock; then proceed to Kean's revolutionary reinterpretation of that character and Hazlitt's championing of Kean's interpretation; and only then to a statement of Hazlitt's focus in Characters, with the extract from it quoted. --Alan W (talk) 02:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking of a similar thing when I was writing the articles. However, I did not know how much "background" I wanted to provide. Should we start such sections with a paragraph, perhaps 6-7 sentences, that describes the previous views? We could also limit it to sections like this where the revision of the character is important (as Shylock was a major reinterpretation). If we rework it, I would suggest taking the first sentence of the second paragraph and using it as a first sentence of a new paragraph that then goes into the previous views. Then follow it with a statement saying Hazlitt split from the traditional view and that will lead into the second paragraph. The long quote would be moved down as a third paragraph. The fourth would then talk about the ramifications of Hazlitt's support of Kean. That way we have past, immediate past, Hazlitt, and after Hazlitt separated into four different sections. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:38, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Something along these lines would probably be fine for this section, and I will keep your suggestions in mind when I try to rework it (not right now, as I want to finish reading the whole article first). I'm not sure that this scheme should necessarily be applied everywhere. But definitely some food for thought here. --Alan W (talk) 05:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Othello

Another case where it's mostly fine. Just a few things need to be tweaked, I think. For example, you start by saying, "The Othello essay is written with the intent to allow the audience to identify with the character Othello." Well, in part, but I think he also wants the audience to identify with other characters. Again, "Hazlitt refused to connect the characters within the plays to Shakespeare as a poet." In some sense that is true, but he does make the connection in pointing out what Keats would later call Shakespeare's "negative capability" (and Keats was greatly influenced by Hazlitt's thinking about this kind of thing, as you probably know). Something about Shakespeare's ability to put himself into the minds of others better than any other poet comes up a number of times in Hazlitt's writing. This is still connecting the poet to his characters in some way. Kinnaird or Bromwich or both say something about Hazlitt's pointing to great poets' (especially Shakespeare's) abilities to connect the reader's imagination with that of the poet himself by means of imaginatively embodied characters—something like that (it's very late here, and this is from memory). Not saying any of what I am remembering vaguely here should be used in any detail or even specifically, but I am just suggesting a direction to take in making some revisions. Again, I will do it after a while if no one else does first. --Alan W (talk) 05:55, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The beginning of that section is choppy and should be rewritten. If you want to have a go, feel free. As for the Keats part - I was wondering if Negative Capability should be mentioned. Unfortunately, it is looking forward, which would be problematic. However, it could be okay if we break it down and say something like Keats later clarified the idea and titled it "negative capability" or something to that effect. Anyway, I understand exactly what you mean. If you have a proposal for a reword feel free. My brain is unable to come up with a good way to phrase it right now (too many reviews at GAN and FAC to think about one of the most complex poetic concepts). Ottava Rima (talk) 14:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, just suggesting a general direction; no absolute need to use the actual term "negative capability". But we'll see. Right now, while you and Xover, as your GA reviewer, are looking at specific sentences and so on, I'm still trying to absorb the article in a more general way and set down further suggestions as I've been doing. --Alan W (talk) 04:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There could be a section on influence - ramifications of various ideas and concepts. There can easily be three or four paragraphs built on the various influences with a paragraph devoted to Keats's use of Hazlitt in the idea of "negative capability" (as the concept did shape literary criticism from the 1960s onward with Bate's analysis). Ottava Rima (talk) 00:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm feeling now that anything about Keats and negative capability, while we shouldn't rule it out, should remain for now on a back burner. As you mentioned earlier, it's a somewhat complicated topic, and, also, we don't want to go off on a tangent. The most important thing now is to convey what is significant about this particular book. And I'm still mulling over all of that, even reading more to get some background, to the extent that I can. --Alan W (talk) 02:50, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just Wondering...

As usual, Ottava, you're working like a house afire, now that this is up for GA. :-) I noticed that in Background, you changed "pirated" to "unlicensed". Why? "Pirated" is the stronger word, it is perfectly correct here and in common English usage, and, more to the point in this context, that is exactly the way Duncan Wu, your source, says it: "It went to a second edition in 1818, and later that year was pirated by Wells and Lilly in Boston...." (p. 212). --Alan W (talk) 04:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Someone was going around literature articles and changing pirated to unlicensed and then attacking the creators of the page for using the term. That person was doing that at multiple GAs. I wanted to preempt that individual so that he does not "destabilize" the page via a edit war. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah! I understand. Well, I guess I can live with "unlicensed" for now. We have bigger fish to fry, or some such appropriate expression. :^) --Alan W (talk)

Others

The one glaring omission that occurs to me as I read this section is the complete absence of the character of Falstaff. Neither of the Henry IV plays nor The Merry Wives of Windsor is so much as mentioned here, and they are most remarkable, to Hazlitt at least, as containing the character of Falstaff. Kinnaird calls his "six-page sketch of Falstaff" a "masterpiece". Falstaff is barely mentioned in another context in the section "Themes", and even then only in a direct quote of Hazlitt's text, but not here. Maybe there should even be a separate section on the plays he appears in. --Alan W (talk) 05:20, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find enough information to really go into Falstaff. If you think that you can put together two or three paragraphs on him, please feel free. I agree that he and others should be mentioned. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reasonable enough. It's on my to-do list, along with reorganizing the Othello section (though I haven't looked at it today, and I see that you have been furiously working at making modifications for GA purposes, so I don't know what it looks like now—actually, it now seems that you have not touched that section in a while). Just be aware that (I say this in view not only of what I've directly responded to, but after noticing talk about FA nomination) I do not seem to have nearly as much time to spare for this as you and Xover do. I am enthusiastic about contributing to make this the best article possible, but, as the old expression goes, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I am very busy with work, and in addition have numerous personal matters to attend to in my life these days. This is a welcome respite from the turmoil, but, still, the fact remains that I have only so much time to spare. --Alan W (talk) 03:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Five minutes here or there, casual glances, or anything really is more than enough. Don't feel too obligated. Plus, you have already aided quite a bit so you will be involved in the whole process by default. There is no time constraint for this. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 03:14, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Themes

A lot of good stuff in here. But I think there is a bit too much, and it is somewhat repetitive and could be boiled down and here and there modified somewhat. Kinnaird and Bromwich's ideas about this book, as about Hazlitt's thought in general, are very subtle, and I'm still trying to grasp much of what they say. Maybe I can make a few changes once I do, to the extent I can. --Alan W (talk) 03:14, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Critical response

Something of a jolt to see the only illustration a picture of William Gifford, Hazlitt's arch-nemesis! You say that the book was well received. Yet of contemporary reviews you mention only those that panned the book. My immediate thought is that something of Francis Jeffrey's review should be mentioned too, and it would be good if a picture of Jeffrey could be found to counterbalance that of Gifford. At least Jeffrey was one of those (and he was an extremely powerful and influential critic) who liked the book.

Also, it's quite a leap from those contemporary reviews to Herschel Baker, a hundred forty-five years later. I'll think about smoothing out that gap. A lot of what you do include, though, is very good.

One more general thing I'm trying to figure out how to deal with is a pair of partly opposing facts: while Hazlitt agreed with Lamb that one gets the most out of Shakespeare's plays by reading them, not seeing them, still, the fact remains that Hazlitt loved the theatre and thought highly of specific actors' interpretations of some of the characters, such as Kean's of Shylock and Sarah Siddons as Lady Macbeth; and there are others. Hazlitt, really, was very broad minded and got what he could out of both ways of experiencing Shakespeare's plays. Lamb, for all the delights of his own writing about Shakespeare, was, I think, a little more one-sided in this respect. This doesn't always come through; Hazlitt does not always really simply agree with Lamb. Keeping all this in mind and maybe using those thoughts to make a few modifications of some sentences here and there is another thing I would like to do.

In short, I'm still hanging in there. You may not see a constant stream of changes from me, but rest assured I am continuing to work on this in one way or another. --Alan W (talk) 03:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot to add Jeffrey's review for some reason. It will probably take a while to find reviews spanning each generation (if it is possible - it is hard to find reviews between 1860 and 1890 on most works). And feel free to make any changes that will blunt the Lamb closet play idea. I will see what I can find on later 19th-century reviews. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]