Talk:Sleep

Template:WP1.0

Functions: Restoration

"A sedentary non-sleeping animal is more likely to survive predators, while still preserving energy. Sleep therefore does something else other than conserving energy."

There's a shaky logic in that. It's assumed that sleep could not evolve as a mechanism to preserve energy because it's not the most efficient way to do that. That would be possible to prove if we knew of other energy-preserving strategies employed by animals who don't sleep. Do we? But traits don't necessarily evolve down the most efficient paths, they seem to follow the most effiecient paths available and some times evolutionary trade-offs are made. For example, bipedalism in humans is not a very efficient form of locomotion so it probably served some purpose other than walking- but the primary use of legs is still walking. So sleep could have been the best way to conserve energy while doing something else in addition to that, or it may have been the cost to pay for an other characteristic, or any number of things like that.

As about predation, it should be noted that predators sleep too. For the quoted proposition to fully stand to reason, it must be shown that all or most animals sleep at different times than their most common predators- otherwise sleep would not increase the risk of being eaten. Then again it is not clear to me at least that sleeping puts an animal in danger. If some animals are awake at the time of day that their predators sleep, that would give them more freedom to move around and search for food or mate. If those animals can sleep safely enough, sleep may even be an advantage to them (though that would be the sleep of their predators, rather than their own and it would be harder to show how predators themselves would benefit from that).

Please understand I'm not proposing that sleep is indeed an energy-saving mechanism. The argument about hibernating animals is strong enough I think. It's just that the logic of the quoted proposition above strikes me as, well, wrong. I guess the quoted passage needs a citation, then? Or even removal altogether? Stassa (talk) 14:08, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The entire section "Functions" needs be modernized and shortened. It should cite reviews and/or textbooks, not small basic research studies. It's been said that sleep is of the brain, by the brain and for the brain and I doubt that predator or prey has much to do with it. The needed rewrite will be a project for someone some day. (Maybe you?) - Hordaland (talk) 16:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Any argument that can't be tested experimentally is shaky to some degree. This argument has been used often in the literature, and seems strong enough to me to belong in the article, but I agree that it needs references.Looie496 (talk) 16:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Aha! There you are, Looie. You're the one who can re-write the entire Functions section! - Hordaland (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the sentence means that you could preserve energy by just resting (not moving, hiding), instead of actually sleeping. That would indeed reduce the energy consumption (compared to moving around or doing whatever else) but also reduce the risk of being eaten, because one can still be fully alert and be on the run if need arises. If you're sleeping you probably don't notice your predator until it's too late. So the sentence sais that the reason for sleeping cannot be energy consumption alone. --PaterMcFly (talk) 17:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Sleep latency

I would like to include the normal amount of time that it takes to fall asleep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.126.93.201 (talk) 03:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Interesting question. Find a good source and add it! My guess would be about 5 to 20 minutes.

(I'm adding a new section title, as this seems to be a new discussion.) - Hordaland (talk) 13:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Amusingly, there is already a Wikipedia article on sleep onset latency, although it isn't very useful. This link may be a reasonable starting point for research. looie496 (talk) 17:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What that latency article does point out, though not real clearly, is that sleep latency will vary according to the time of day you're going to sleep. For example (and there should be many sources for this out there), if a normal, healthy, not-sleep-deprived adult consistently goes to bed at 11 p.m., s/he will likely get to sleep quite quickly at that time. Trying to get some sleep at 8 p.m. or at 11 a.m. will take longer. But this varies widely individually, and taking a nap at siesta time (about 1-2 p.m.) will allow a much shorter latency than the nap times just mentioned. - Hordaland (talk) 10:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

5-HTP

I could swear I removed that sentence at some point. The statement that ingesting 5-HTP can cause drowsiness is false, or at least misleading. I have taken it, and I can tell you that its direct effect is to enhance wakefulness. The directions on some bottles actually advise taking it in the morning or afternoon, not at night -- and I'll tell you that if you do take it at night, you won't find it easy to sleep. It is true that if taken in the morning, it probably has a modest effect of making it easier to fall asleep at night, many hours later, but that isn't the impression given by the sentence currently in the article. (What I am saying here fits the pharmacology, by the way: serotonin levels drop during SWS and fall almost to zero during REM, so a serotonin agonist such as 5-HTP would not be expected to directly promote sleep.) looie496 (talk) 17:50, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

That's OR, Looie :-)

The question comes up every Thanksgiving, doesn't it? Coturnix comments on it again, with links to comment sections from previous years, and to other blog posts. Does Tryptophan from turkey meat make you sleepy? Here. Short version: nobody knows; studies in several species are incomplete. - Hordaland (talk) 23:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's my OR against the article's unsourced statement :-). But see this abstract, the first I hit using Google Scholar. Anyway, I'm pretty skeptical about tryptophan myself, since it's a basic amino acid that comes into play all over the body. But 5-HTP plays the same role in the serotonin system that L-DOPA plays in the dopamine system, and so from a theoretical point of view it ought to be a pretty potent drug. Looie496 (talk) 23:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Sub-optimal image caption

"Two men sleeping in Tehran" is not the most descriptive caption that I could think of for the image in the introduction. Wouldn't "sitting on a bench" or "in sitting posture" be more relevant information than in what country they happen to be located? __meco (talk) 11:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

OK. The woman is identified by community or tribe, but the child isn't. I'll change the 2 men. - Hordaland (talk) 14:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I favor reverting the caption back to "Two men sleeping in Tehran", rather than "Two men sleeping in a sitting position". Because anyone (except blind readers) can see that they're sitting, it adds no information to the picture. The Tehran caption was educational for people like me who thought up until now that Tehran was basically a barren sand-filled desert filled with scorched-clay buildings and dark skinned people who wear turbans and ride camels on the streets. But if I came across the picture for the first time now I would probably say "Wow, look at all that green grass. This picture must have been taken in some place like Vermont!" Soap ^Talk/_{Contributions} 21:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

OK. It could also have been taken here in Western Norway except that, of course, here we have polar bears instead of camels in the streets. :-) - Hordaland (talk) 17:55, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Improper citing

This article constantly cites various authors et al. in the main article. Someone should cite the article in proper wiki format. Odin1 (talk) 08:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. You can edit almost any article on Wikipedia by just following the Edit link at the top of the page. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. Puchiko (Talk-email) 14:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

discontinuing stage 4?

There's a lot of mention that some "new standard" gets rid of stage 4, but it needs to be cited. Anyone? 83.146.14.125 (talk) 00:50, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Here you go.

- Hordaland (talk) 19:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I rewrote that section as it was really disordered. I also moved the picture so that it appears in the blank space on the right of the TOC, instead of squashing up the lead paragraph. 83.146.13.184 (talk) 15:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks good. Thanks much! - Hordaland (talk) 22:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Anthropology of sleep

I think that this section should be downsized due to the confusion between anthropological and biological sleep patterns, we ARE diurnal after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.21.63 (talk) 23:56, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

On this topic also see recent study: [1]. Among the OECD countries, French and Americans sleep the most. Koreans and Japanese the least, followed by Norwegians and Swedes. The Scandinavian Finland though is about average (so latitude might not have much to do with this).radek (talk) 19:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting stuff. Here's India's take on it

But self-reported sleep time isn't very reliable. Here's an American study report on that. It wouldn't surprise me if there are cultural differences making one country overestimate and another under. Maybe.

(And. Sorry to be picky but Finland is a Nordic country but not a Scandinavian one. It is, of course, as far north as most of Norway. The Scandinavian languages are germanic and closely related. Finnish is way different, related only to Estonian and Hungarian as far as I know.) - Hordaland (talk) 21:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

---

I would like to add on the subject of anthropology, the first paragraph looks like a load of bullshit to me with no sources, it claims that societies without artificial light tend to wake up during the night MORE than societies with artificial light. In my opinion it is the opposite because societies with artificial light tend to be distracted by things more easily, such as the sound of passing ambulances or electronic devices. Surely societies without artificial light should sleep more regularly because it is dark throughout the whole night and there aren't as many distractions to them... anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.5.170.126 (talk) 13:03, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

See the article segmented sleep for more information about sleep patterns in pre-industrial societies. I believe they are fairly well established and in fact you can see the same phenomenon in the poorest countries in the world today where, by and large, there is still no electricity or what electricity there is is too expensive to use more than absolutely necessary. Soap ^Talk/_{Contributions} 13:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

To put it another way: near the equator it's dark 12 hours of the day, and everywhere else it's dark more than 12 hours at least some of the time. No healthy adult sleeps 12 hours, so there's going to have to be time awake during the dark. And it turns out that it seems that nature has made humans light sleepers, so that sleep during the 12 hours of dark is spread out over the time instead of being all at once with 4 hours of nothing beside it. Soap ^Talk/_{Contributions} 13:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Anthropology plays a part in human sleeping cycle, but the whole article does not mention once that humans are diurnal, leaving the reader to assume that everyone is at the mercy of the culture and other factors (such as artificial light). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.9.130 (talk) 06:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

serotonin and sleep

I'd just like to add a pointer to PMID 19209176, which contains a nice explanation of the relationship between serotonin and sleep. The basic story is that serotonin agonists have an immediate effect of increasing wakefulness, but a delayed indirect effect of promoting slow wave sleep. The increased sleep always comes during the natural sleep phase of the light/dark cycle, regardless of what time of day the drug is administered. Looie496 (talk) 17:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Caffeine addiction and sleep problems

The article says about caffeine: "It can cause a rapid reduction in alertness as it wears off." This is like saying that heroin can make the regular user feel unwell when it wears off. "No such thing as caffeine addiction" I hear you say, but would you be willing to go without it? People who do not consume caffeine (including myself) report feeling alert all the time, and fall asleep rapidly and wake up alert and refreshed. 78.151.148.89 (talk) 22:26, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Where does it say that there is "No such thing as caffeine addiction"? It's mentioned in the article Caffeine. I can assure you that there are troublesome withdrawal symptoms after less than 24 hours.

I agree that the sentence about reduction in alertness doesn't say much. - Hordaland (talk) 22:32, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Some Positions Better Than Others?

(that headline sounds more fun than this inquiry really is, sorry;p) Is it unhealthy to sleep in a non-horizontal position? Fx on a couch, leaned against some pillows? Or is it a matter of taste or is it completely irrelevant for the quality of sleep?62.107.24.213 (talk) 19:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Bed time

There is no artical on wikipedia solely dedicated to bedtime, and things to related to it. For instance, the importance of sleep at the correct time; how to deal with problems that children have with bed time, and what an approapriate bed time actually is. It could be very helpful. I would liek to create it myself, but would be very unsure what to put in it. Is there anyone that would liek to begin it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.240.134.84 (talk) 17:09, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. There is indeed an article on bedtime, you can find it at Bedtime. Please feel free to edit the article, but keep in mind Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a how-to guide. Be sure to use plenty of reliable sources and welcome to Wikipedia! Happy editing! Puchiko (Talk-email) 15:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Deeper sleep? More rest in less time

Is it possible to have even deeper layers "strata" if you would, of sleep? Could some people sleep only 4 or 6 hours a night and yet wake fully rested? It's happened to me before, sometimes when I've only slept 6 hours. The snare (talk) 17:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

The section: "Effects of food and drink/drugs on sleep"

The section has been tagged since last fall and now there's just a tag -- no content. Here is what the content looked like at one time.

We don't need a rambling, unsourced section, but just title+tag looks silly and shouldn't stay for months as a place holder. I'm removing it. We probably should have such a section, so there's a project for someone...

Forgeddabout it. The not-very-good content is still there - I must'uv blinked. - Hordaland (talk) 01:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Effect of food and drink on sleep section

There is a section titled "Effect of food and drink on sleep," but most of its contents are drug related. Shouldn't it be titled "Drugs affecting sleep?" PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 15:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Cause

I'm a layman on the subject, but don't we sleep because we are simply tired? I.e. physically fatigued, and mentally fatigued. The lede makes it seem that this is a mystery. --Jay(Talk) 03:38, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I changed "purposes" to "purposes and mechanisms"; maybe that helps? There are many unanswered questions. What's happening in the synapses? Why are some types of learning reinforced by sleep, much more than others? What does tired / fatigued actually mean? (Is a fruit fly mentally fatigued?) There are still many mysteries - it's fascinating stuff. - Hordaland (talk) 13:11, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

LSD and Sleep

I don't know much about psychology, or chemistry for that matter, but I've ingested LSD a number of times, and each time I find it almost completely impossible to sleep at all. The very idea is repulsive, and several friends have concurred about this. Does anyone know anything or want to research this and add it to the article? -Problematik —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.246.109 (talk) 04:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

That information belongs in the LSD article, not here. Sleeplessness is indeed mentioned in that article. - Hordaland (talk) 15:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Random sleeping images

Are all of the random images of sleeping people really necessary? I don't think that anybody needs to know what a man sleeping on a bench looks like; we've all seen sleeping people before. Still, although I hate to contradict myself, the sleeping kitten definitely WAS necessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.53.161.143 (talk) 07:20, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Even needed?

"Some say aliens abducts people when people are sleeping."

Is this even needed or relevant?