Talk:Vlorë

Vlora was known in ancient times for Aulona which later the name transform to Avlona, and then later Vlona (in ghek, albanian dialect), it became Vlora in tosk, albanian dialect. --Albanau 12:26, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Greek names

Even if Greek is not official language in the country, the Greek name should be added. Th edefence avedemy of UK states: [1] minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994). It seems that the city has a small 8.000 Greek minority.

Defense Academy of U.K. states that there is a 8.000 Greek community in the city (1994) [[2]], so what' s the problem about adding the Greek name?--Alexikoua (talk) 20:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Otherwise why we should keep albanian names in cities which haven't Albanian population, such as Ioannina? I'll inform the related articles about that as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexikoua (talk • contribs) 08:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

That's an interesting point Alexikoua. It makes sense that we should treat all articles in a standardised manner. Thanks for the info. Dr.K. (talk) 13:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Greek language is not an official language in Albania. Therefore, there is no need to include the Greek versions or translation of the names of Albanian cities. I am editing the article accordingly.--_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 06:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not about beeing or not official language. I see the name is added, however name's origin should be added in history section (according wiki standards). Off course the name's origin has to be added as the source states and not part of it and possible changing the meaningAlexikoua (talk) 08:25, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Foundation

Quoting from the article: "It was founded by Greeks in the 6th century BC and named Aulōn, one of three such colonies on the coast of Illyria, mentioned for the first time by Ptolemy (Geographia, III, xii, 2)."

This is a manipulation of the context and not a reliable source. We need modern historical sources. I am editing the article by removing this sentence and the respective category.--_Arbër ^{T •  ?} 07:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

My, it's not just the Greek names you are trying to eradicate. In fact, your agenda becomes quite clear: You want to "purify" every Albania article of anything "foreign". What a mentality. Aulon was founded by Greek colonists in the 6th century BC. It is common knowledge. What manipulation of the context are you talking about? Can you please explain? --Tsourkpk (talk) 15:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Why should the greek version of the name be included? Greek is not an official language in Albania and there is not any greek speaking minority in the city. Is there any city of Greece which has the Albanian version of the name? 79.17.174.224 (talk) 10:19, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Editing the name

The Greek toponym is inapropriate, since neither is the Greek language official in Albania, neither is there any indigeneous Greek speaing community in Vlora, nor has it any particolar historical value. For that matter the Italian term Valona whould be more apropriate, and besides this, the city has had little historical importance even in its brightest times. Also, due to the past expansionist policy of the Greek state and that of the present of some ultranationlist Greek circles, the sensibility of the Albanian people should be taken in consideration.Cajupi (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Greek language and change of history

The Greek translation of the towns name is not important. The town was not created by Greeks, as it stats in the article, because the town has no connection whatsoever to Greece. I as a citizen of Albania and a resident of Vlore feel extremely humiliated and vandalized by this article. As a new user i don't have the ability to correct this page and for this i will relay on wikipedia team. Thank you for your understanding (Alba-union (talk) 03:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)).

Welcome to Wikipedia!--_{A B X} ^{T • ៛} 13:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Greek name is irrelavant. The town was created by Ancient Greek, so let`s use Ancient Greek name of it and not the modern Greek. By the way let`s put the dutch name of New York, because it is created by dutch population. This is redicoulus. Greek should be used in names of Albanian towns and villiges, only where is a greek minority, or where there was a greek minority. balkanian (talk) 18:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi balkanian. Your suggestion about the name is great. I agree with you to use the Ancient Greek name. The Britannica citation mentions there is a Greek Orthodox population and some Catholics. So we can mention that too. Take care. Dr.K. (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no Greek population in vlore, i live there an i can guarantee that there is not even one single person with greek origins. but hey no wonder Wikipedia is not allowed to be used as source of information in universities, because of fake information that everyone uses.

{{editprotected}} There is no connection between vlore and Greece (see http://www.bashkiavlore.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=79 ) The neme in Greek name should be removed and the entire history text should be replaced by this text: "The History of Vlora

In ancient history Vlore was called Aulona. It was noted by many travelers and foreign chroniclers, as one of the main port cities of the southern Illyrian region, which flourished, in importance only behind Apolonia and Orikum. “The name of Vlores is one of the least well know geographic names of the eastern coast of the Adiatic that has remained since the ancient times. The city is on par with Durres, Shokdra, Lesha, and Ulqin, as one of the most important and ancient cities of Albania. These places would not have survived had not they been continuously occupied through the centuries. A good part of the population of these provinces have since their Albanian settlement, been able to resist the process of Romanization and enslavement, in which a large part of the Balkans peninsula took part in.” notes a study by Professor Shaban Demiraj.

According to archeological remains seen on the Vlore coast, in previous years Vlore was marked by noteworthy prehistoric residences, cultural and economic developments, and characteristic cities and urban centers. Like the “Caves of Velça,” “The Cave Writings of Lepenice” (a rarity in the greater Balkans) “The Cave of Spile” (in Himara) “The Mosaics of Mavrova” or “The Pitosa of Mallkeq” the Vlore region has numerous sites that showcase the independence and the continuation of the culture of the Illyrians through the bronze and iron ages. Other known ancient residences are the city castles of Amantia, Olympia, Kanina, Himara, Cerja, Armeni, Haderaj, Triport and Vlora (Aulona) itself.

Amantia was founded in the fifth century BCE and is one of the smaller southern Illyrian cities, is over 1000 years old and has many old mountain buildings and ancient antique stadiums built with large stone blacks. South of the city of Vlore is found the city of Orikum, which is the most ancient port on the coast of Vlore, and was founded as a residential area in the fourth to fifth century BCE. Orikum then became a fortified port, and an important Adriatic military base. In the second and first centuries BCE it was an important sea side work site, for building and repairing ships, favored by proximity to the pine forests of Llogara and the greenhouses of Selenica. In the second century BCE Orikum was destroyed by a powerful earthquake and lost its importance, having not gotten permission to rebuild. It was during this particular time in the bay of Vlore that another wharf city, “Aulona”, the Vlore of today first made an appearance in history. The ancient archeological symbol of Vlore is “The Girl of Aulona” a sculpture of a nymph 87 cm and carved by local masters with the limetones of Kanina that symbolize the grave clothes of the Illyrians. The name of the city - Wharf of Aulona first is noted in the second century BCE by the authors Lukan and the geographer Ptolemy. These facts are confirmed by the archeological evidences of a castle, and a large port that may have existed at the mouth of the river and at the lagoon of Narta. During these times, the port of Aulona must have moved, it appears that the commercial aspect of the port moved to JL and Kanina, became the administrative center of the military in the fourth century CE. In the fifth and the sixth centuries Vlore received an orthodox bishop who was dependant on the metropolis of Durres, but his presence in Aulona explains why the city became a more important place of residence. The past few years have lead to the discovery of the surrounding protecting wall and fortification in the center of Vlore as well as the discovery of some new existing archeological remains near the train station. The last archeological excavations in Kanina and Himara have given other evidence for the continuity of Illyrian culture through late antiquity and the middle ages.. In the sixth century CE and continuing in the middle ages, Aulona was mentioned in a list of important port coastal cities, with developed naval facilities that exported olive oil, salt, timber, olives, and the emerging markets of Aulona mirrored those through out the rest of Europe. In the neck of the river Vjosa, emerged the port of Spinarce, where trade developed as well as consular trade with Raguza and Venice, etc.

Medieval Vlore and its region fell under the Norman occupation of 1081, falling under Venetian occupation in 1205 and later under the domination of the Hohenstaufen Germans. During the reign of the Arberesh Kingdom after 1272 Vlore served as a center of cultural development, and as noted in several concurrent chronicles, there was a flowering of crafts, trade, husbandry and forestry.

The Arianit Family has played large role in the political, military and society of Vlore, most notably in the 11 th Century with the first of the Arianitas, Komnen Golemi Topise, until the 15 th and 16 th centuries. A noted individual of the 15 th century was Gjergj Arianiti, who organized the resistance against the Ottoman regimes in 1431-1432, in the mountains of valleys of Laberia. According to legend Gjergj Arianit was revered through out Europe. He allied himself with the Albanian hero Gjergj Kastriot Skenderbej, when Skenderbej married his daughter Donika, though Arianit remained independent in the South and middle of Albania. In the assembly of Lezha, on March 2, 1444, to face the dangers of the Ottoman occupation, Gjregj Arianiti stood by the Albanian rulers in their national campaign.

In the 15 th and 16 th centuries the ottoman regime turned the Vlore into an important Adriatic Port. In a Turkish census in the year 1520 there was listed 701 local families and 531 Jewish families. This is evidence for a peaceful and tolerant climate, at a time when elsewhere Jews faced savage persecution. Thus the city was host to 6300 – 6500 residences. Vlore was the base for the Ottoman attacks against the southern Italians in 1480, against the Himara insurgents in 1492 and served as a base for the Sultan Sulejmani against Corfu in 1537. And in this year was built the castle of the city, where today is located the Flamurtari stadium, and whose stones were taken from the castle of Jangeci in Zvernec and from the surrounding walls of Aulona.

In the 17 th and 18 th Centuries Vlora was on of the most important harbors of southern Albania, behind Preveza, because her bay protected boats from storms. In the port of Vlore was built a large depot for the storage of agricultural products and village goods which found there way there all the way from Berat, Gjirokaster and Myzeqe. In their exports, the city developed trade with Trieste, Venice, Vienna, Corfu, Istanbul, Izmir, Brescia, Bari, Manastir, Ioanina and Malta. In the port of Vlora, regularly entered, every week the Austrian Ship “Lloyd” and the Italian “ Puglia” which have done in the year 1904, respectively, 224 and 181 entrance and exits. Vlora exported 20000 barrels of olive oil, 11000 loads of olives, 1.5 million kilograms of salt, and 15000 units of wool, and 20000 pieces of leather, as well as a myriad of other agricultural products from around the region.

One desired article was the flint from the stones of Drashovice that were prepared either as blocks or as shards. For export, animal furs and caps were the preferred articles for Istrien and Tristien and other alpine places. Vlore manufactured olives that were more ancient than those made in Italy and France was distinguished by their high production quality, and their oils. In the year 1900 Vlore was registered with over 100,000 olive trees

Through out the centuries Vlora has been known as an important patriotic heart of Albania, and the struggles for freedom, independence and prosperity have been in the spirit of every Vloniat. Vlore was the site of many wars against foreign occupations and struggles to spread Albanian education and was home to many patriotic societies. In the years 1908-1912 the club “Laberia” made a burning hearth for the struggle for independence and against the Young Turks. The head of this club was Ismail Qemali who opened an Albanian School in the neighborhood of Muradie (August 7 th 1908) and which marked an important occasion in the educational life of Vlore. But the most important incident in the city of Vlora was the one that happened on the 28 th of November 1912, when the sage and diplomatic old man, Ismail Qemali, together with other Albanian delegates from around the country, declared the independence of Albania and at the same time raised the national flag in Vlore. Thus Vlore became the first capital city in independent Albania.

In the 25 th of December 1914 Vlore was conquered by the Italians. After the expansion of the Italian occupation, there grew a resistance to their rule. In the year 1920, after the Congress of Lushnja, there was created the National Protection” Committee, headed by Osman Haxhiu, which organized war forces in the War of Vlore. The war of Vlore is one of epic glories of Albanians. Vlora was the “Thermopoli” according to Halim Xhelo. In the years 1920 – 1924 Vlore was included in the process of democratization of local people. Here was created the Federation “Atdheu” (1921) and the branch of the society “Bashkimi” (1922). A large role in these years was played by the magazines “Politics”, “National Protection” “Free words” “National Hope” etc, which were published in Vlore. In the Second World War, Vlore was made one of the most important bases for the National Anti Fascist Movement against the Nazi occupation. It kept a heavy load in the war and its contribution is well noted." wgicg is stated by the official government page of Vlore http://www.bashkiavlore.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=79

N Declined, no consensus yet, see {{editprotected}}.  Sandstein  08:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that, but this is not a matter for Wikipedia to decide. We have one of the best encyclopedias Encyclopaedia Britannica stating the following:

town that is the second seaport of Albania. It lies at the head of Vlorës Bay, which is protected by the mountainous Karaburun (peninsula) and the island of Sazan (Italian Saseno, ancient Saso). Of ancient origin, it was founded as Aulon, one of three Greek colonies on the Illyrian coast. It was strategically important during Roman times and in the 11th–12th-century wars between Normans and Byzantines. Later it was contested by Venetians, Serbs, and Turks. On Nov. 28, 1912, Ismail Qemal proclaimed there the independence of Albania. Vlorë was occupied by the Italians in 1915–20 and again in 1939. During World War II Sazan was used as a German and Italian submarine base. After the war the town’s harbour and submarine facilities were improved by the Soviet Union, which used the bay as a naval base until 1961, when conflict between the two states resulted in a Soviet departure. Vlorë’s population includes Muslims, Greek Orthodox, and a few Roman Catholics

Maybe Encyclopedia Britannica is wrong. Maybe they don't know what they are talking about. The problem is we trust them. We consider them a reliable source as per our policy enunciated at WP:RS. That's why we have to write in the article what they say. I hope this makes it clear. Thanks. Dr.K. (talk) 11:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

And since we are on the topic of reliable sources here is another one: Encarta from Microsoft.

Vlorë, also Vlora, Vlonë, or Valona, city and port in southwestern Albania, on the Bay of Vlorës (an arm of the Adriatic Sea). The capital of Vlorë District, the city exports petroleum (from the Kuçovë oil field), bitumen, olives, olive oil, and fruit. Industries include tannin extracting, rice milling, olive oil refining, fishing, and the manufacture of cement, soap, and dairy products. The city has a museum, a theater, and technical schools; the medieval Kanine Château is to the southeast. Beaches are nearby, and at the mouth of the bay is the island of Sazan (Italian Saseno), which was used by the Italians as a fortress in both World War I (1914-1918) and World War II (1939-1945) and by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a submarine base after World War II until 1961. The Greek colony of Aulon, founded at the Bay of Vlorës, dates from the 5th century, although the site is mentioned earlier. At times partly independent, the city has been held by the Byzantines, Normans (1081), Serbs (1345), Venetians (1417-1464, 1690-1691), and Turks (after 1464). Albanian independence was proclaimed in Vlorë in 1912, but the city was held by the Italians during both world wars and was known as Valona or Avlona. Population (2001 estimate) 77,691.

I hope this helps. Dr.K. (talk) 18:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you Dr.K., but wiki does not include double standards. The town maybe created by a greek colony, but this does not mean that the greek name should be added. Why don`t you try to add the greek name in Marseilles page, which is created by greeks? My proposal is that other names beside the official one, should be added only in the towns and villages where a minority exists or existed in the near past. 217.24.246.186 (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you anon. But Britannica clearly mentions there is a Greek minority there. So we have both elements, the history and the minority. Also look at the Corfu article. It has also an Italian language translation due to historical ties with the Venetians but no Italian minority at all and I'm not worried the Italians will come and claim the island. Anyway it's been nice meeting you. Dr.K. (talk) 15:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

P.P.S. The Corfu article has a Latin translation as well. Latin is a dead language and so are the Latins. Dr.K. (talk) 19:24, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If we agree that this is a standard, then is ok for me, to use the Ancient Greek name, the modern greek name is irrelevant however. There is not any Greek minority in Vlora, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, I just read it and I did not see the passage you are referring to. balkanian (talk) 14:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi balkanian, here is the link: Britannica Vlore, I just checked it again and says the same thing as I wrote. Alternatively we may want user:Sandstein to verify this for us. Take care. Tasos (Dr.K. (talk) 16:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC))

WP:NCGN is clear. English name should be used, which means contemporary native name if there is no another English form. Non English (non native) can be mentioned (up to 3 other names, modern or historical) in the lead sentence (in paranthesis), or in separate "Name" section as first after a lead. If historical names are added to the lead then it must be noted - archaic - like "(archaic Greek: .....)". "Name" section is suitable for places with many changes and developement of name in history. If there is "Name" section, the names in the lead are out. Probably this is such case, like many others in the Balkans - a lot of the geographical places with origins in ancient history. Why not use "Name" section here with description about how the name originated and how it was changing in time, without contemporaray non-English (non-Albanian) modern names in the lead? Zenanarh (talk) 07:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Tasos, "Vlorë’s population includes Muslims, Greek Orthodox, and a few Roman Catholics." is the only passage where the word Greek is used and surely it is used in a religion context. Otherwise, there would have been romans in Albania. Don`t you agree? I agree with the proposal of Zenanarh. It would be the best solution.balkanian (talk) 10:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That is standard per consensus that will be used for cities in Croatia. However we will make a separate list of non native (= non-English) modern names (in Italian, German,...) for all cities with links in the articles. We will have 2 solutions to choose from in every particular case:

1) in the leads there will be 2 names (only if historical then "archaic" added) and a link to a list;

2) no names in the lead, only a link to a list and "Name" section with historical names and story. So a lead will be like: "XY (see names in other languages...) is a city...".

We had discussion about some kind of standard and this appeared as the best sollution, completely in accordance to WP:NCGN, keeping in mind many changes of the names (rulers, occupators, relevant, irrelevant,...).

In your case here, you can add "archaic" to the Greek name in the lead, but it would be much better to clean up the lead and have "Name" section with name developement described. It increases quality of the article and avoids any misinterpretation. Zenanarh (talk) 11:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok balkanian and Zenanarh. Let's put the two names in the lead, the current and ancient Greek, and arrange the rest as Zenanarh suggests. No problem. Thank you Zenanarh for the clarification. Balkanian it's been a pleasure meeting you. Hope to see you around. Take care. Tasos. Dr.K. (talk) 14:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with second proposal of Zenanarh. balkanian (talk) 14:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I prefer proposal #1 of Zenanarh because this is the current standard for many articles. See for example Corfu and Marseille as the anonymous above mentioned:

Marseille, (English alt. Marseilles IPA: /mɑrˈseɪ/ — French: pronounced [maʁsɛj], locally [mɑχˈsɛjɐ] — Provençal Occitan: Marselha [maʀˈsejɔ, maʀˈsijɔ] in classical norm or Marsiho [maʀˈsijɔ] in Mistralian norm — Origin: Greek: Massalia / Μασσαλία) is the second-largest city of France and forms the third-largest metropolitan area, after

Dr.K. (talk) 15:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

They're both standard. Up to 3 names go in a lead (other native if there is one; or one used by significiant (numerous) national minority; or archaic). If more of it (more different archaic forms of name used by different settlers in different periods) or if something interesting (meaning of the archaic name, pronounciation, phonetic changes, graphic changes, etc...) can be written than "Name" section is logical choice.

It seems that you have archaic names here in discussion. If I've understood well there's no other native (Albanian) name and there is Greek minority, but nothing significant (modern Greek name is useless then). So just decide how many archaic forms you want to include or is there some additional information about archaic name/names you want to include. Zenanarh (talk) 09:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There is an Albanian Ghek dialect version "Vlone"; we could put that into the intro as well. So we can have two native names "Vlore" and "Vlone" and the archaic "Avlon" or "Aulon". Dr.K. (talk) 14:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I don`t think that "Vlone" is apropriate, because in Vlora district is used only the tosk dialect and in the Albanian standard form, it is called Vlore. By the way firs of all we need a reference that the name "Aulon" derives from ancient greek and not from another language.balkanian (talk) 13:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we have a deal then because here is a google book reference: Placenames of the World: Origins and Meanings of the Names for 6,600 Countries, Cities, Territories, Natural Features, and Historic Sites By Adrian Room Published by McFarland, 2005 ISBN 0786422483, 9780786422487 433 pages Quote:

The town was founded as the Greek colony of Aulon apparently from the identical Greek word meaning "valley".

Dr.K. (talk) 16:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

OK. The concret proposal is: Vlora (Albanian:Vlorë or Vlora, archaich form: Aulon)etc etc. OK? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 17:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I do not agree. The reference you get continues "...although possibly a reinterpretation of a pre-greek name". I would agree to add Aulon, without the Ancient Greek before it, as far as we do not know if it is Ancient Greek or pre-greek. Do you agree? balkanian (talk) 17:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

We are splitting hairs here. The reference continues to say:

or possibly a reinterpretation of an existing pre-Greek name

The key word here is

reinterpretation

reinterpretation by whom? Obviously the ancient Greeks. So even if we assume the ancient Greeks borrowed it, which is not what the reference says (because it only mentions "possibly", meaning not so likely, the ancient Greeks reinterpreted it, meaning they gave it a Greek version of what name existed before. So it is still a Greek version of the name.

Yet it is not the same, because it says "apperantly from the greek word...". What about this: Vlora (Albanian:Vlorë or Vlora, archaich form: Aulon, Ancient Greek: Αυλών) etc.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 17:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Dr.K. (talk) 17:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Names in infobox and lead

I see my edit of the names of Vlorë in the infobox and the lead was reverted. My idea was, in accordance with the general rules about infoboxes (infoboxes are supposed to present summary information), to move the alternative, not-Albanian names to the lead and out of the infobox. I think which name is relevant is another discussion. For now I'll move the alternative names out of the infobox and into the lead without any further edit (except adding that Valona is Italian). Markussep ^Talk 14:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Name

There were more than 3 names in the lead, so it was pretty nonsense to keep them al in there. So according to WP:NCGN I moved them all in a name section, as in the case of Durres.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

According to WP:NCGN, I don't see any reason why all those Italian names should be added, especially the "La Valona" one. I don't even think it's valid. And what language is "Avlona" in? It just sounds like the Greek name with latin characters. Unless of course the idea is to cram as many irrelevant names as possible so as to find a justification for removing the Greek name from the lead. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I think Balkanian changed his mind and does not follow our previous consensus anymore and that makes me really disappointed because I thought he would keep his word. There is no justification for removing the original ancient Greek name. Dr.K. (talk) 19:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I have added none of themBalkanian`s word (talk) 19:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

But you did use it as an excuse for removing the Greek name from the lead, which was your goal all along. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I don`t get you? I didn`t add any other name, exept greek and albanian, because I used it as an excuse...? Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Tsourkpk, after Balkanian's answer you should give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he was looking for an excuse after his explanation here. Let's use WP:AGF in this case because I believe him. Dr.K. (talk) 19:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

No, he's been obsessing over the Greek name of this page for months now, and is doing the same in other articles as well. I will revert back to the old version, and we will see just how good his faith is. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:49, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you are obsessed with the albanian names. Do not forget that Tasos and me made the final conclusion of the Greek name in this page, until there were added another 40 ones, and I had to create a name section. On the other hand, you reordered the names in Epirus...Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I already did. Dr.K. (talk) 19:53, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't mention it. Take care. Tasos (Dr.K. (logos) 19:57, 1 December 2008 (UTC))

I have just restored the names section. I don't see the point of removing relevant, sourced material. Avlona and Valona were both commonly used in English, see for instance this 1920 New York Times article and this 1940 NYT article. Markussep ^Talk 20:30, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Again on name

We have 2 choices: the first to add all the names in a history section and the second to add all of them in the lead. What do you think?Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with the current "Names" section? Markussep ^Talk 20:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Nothing wrong, some here want the greek name in the lead. Per WP:NCGN we should put the all in the lead, or leave a name section. I agree that a names section is betterBalkanian`s word (talk) 20:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Any archaic names, however, should be clearly marked as such in the lead. You could make a Names section for names that came up later on.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

hahaha, where did you read this?Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Previous consensus decided Aulon should be in the lead. Per WP:Consensus, that is a policy (and not a naming convention that is best treated with common sense and occassional exception) you need to have a new consensus established to have that change accepted and remain. Here, consensus did override WP:NCGN. Removing the ancient name would be against consensus.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I was a part of that consensus and the consensus was that only one name (the ancient greek one would be added). Now this consensus has no meaning, because there are 4 new names for the city. So this is not a point.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Please note that Wikipedia:Consensus#Consensus can change. The Greek name Aulon was never removed, and the "names" section is quite close to the lead. Given the relevance of names like Valona and Avlona (see the NYT articles I quoted above), I think they should be mentioned at least once. I'm happy with the current situation, any suggestions for improvement? Markussep ^Talk 21:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course Consensus can change. I was only referring to the fact that the anc. name should be in the lead (and I think should remain there). I think that the current sitiation is perfectly fine.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Please tell only one reason that the etymology of the name, and the ancient greek name, should be in both the lead and in the name section? If we keep the name section the etymology must be there as the first name of the settlement. But we cannot have the same name twice in a page. Read WP:NCGN:"Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead "(Foreign language: Local name; known also by several alternative names)"Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

What is the reason to keep the ancient Greek name in the lead? Modern Greek (what the local Greek minority would probably speak) is apparently Αυλώνας (Avlonas). Markussep ^Talk 21:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

No, there`s no greek minority, so the modern greek is irrelevant. The ancient greek name is the name when it was founded some 2 thousand and a half years ago.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

So the main interest of Αυλών is history and etymology? I don't think that justifies a special place in the lead for Αυλών, see for instance Vienna (Vindobona is only mentioned in the history section), Naples (Νεάπολις is mentioned in the second paragraph and in the history section) and New York City (New/Nieuw Amsterdam is mentioned in the fourth paragraph and in the history section). Markussep ^Talk 08:53, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

That`s what I am saying, if there is a name section, there is no possibility that one single name to be added in the lead agaian. WP:NCGN:Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first lineBalkanian`s word (talk) 11:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, Αυλών clearly doesn't apply as local official name (the criterion to mention an alternative name in the lead when there is a names section as well). BTW what's missing now, and recommended by WP:NCGN, is a link to the names section in the lead. I would like to know from the Αυλών supporters why they think Αυλών should be in the lead. Given the proximity of Greece and the presence of ethnic Greeks in and around Vlorë (8000 in '94 according to the Sandhurst study quoted above), the modern Greek name can also be mentioned in the names section IMO. Markussep ^Talk 12:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The study you`re refering is not speaking about the town of Vlora, but about the district, so cannot be an source about the town.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the figure in the Sandhurst study is about the district, it says "... important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara ...". Since Himara is part of Vlorë district, IMO this indicates that the city (or a small area around the city) is meant. Markussep ^Talk 14:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see! But there are plenty of references that in Vlora there is no greek minority, I think there`s a problem with this study. Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Could you show me some of those references? Markussep ^Talk 17:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

[3]Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

202 Greeks in the whole Vlorë district, that's quite a difference. Maybe a difference in definition (Greek ancestry vs. self-reference as Greek or speaking Greek as first language)? Anyway, I see your point. Markussep ^Talk 18:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The 202 number is based on a census (1988-9) that is directly questioned for its results by Sandhurst. One of his very arguments questioning the 1989 totalitarian census, is that in Vlore lives a community of ca. 8000 persons... So, the right chronological order is: i. 1989 census (under communist regime Albania), ii. Sandhurt's report questioning the census' results, excactly saying: In contrast, Albanian governments use a much lower figure of (1989 census') 58,000 which rests on the unrevised definition of “minority” adopted during the communist period. Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora...

I still don' t see a real reason not to believe this report, provided that there are no opposing views so far. Off course the 202 number (about Vlore district) is fully rejected today , because it ignores the concentration even in Himara area, which is recognized by Albanian sources today too (but not by the communist regime at 1989).

I can' t really see a problem about this research, his argument was just to question unreliable resutls by a non-democratic regime.--Alexikoua (talk) 21:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The 202 number was reused by the Albanian government in 2007, and the 1989 census also gives numbers of Greeks for northern districts, so I don't think that minority village criterion applied. Do you have more recent references stating that there are Greeks in Vlorë? Markussep ^Talk 21:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The text mentions about (forced nad unforced) movement of the minority people. Suppose some of these people born in minority areas that were moved to other areas, (farther north)retained under conditions the minority status (the report states something about pro-communist and anti-communist minority member). Albania didn't conduct censuses based on nationality since 1989, so except some reports, there isn't a reliable related statement.

The numbers of the minority's 'Union Human Rights Party' which participates on the local and parliamentary elections, could be of some help. Usually minority parties have high levels of concentration among minority member, so it could be a good indicator about minority's numbers. (on the other hand the party has faced negative criticism by popular Albanian mass media, it is difficult to consider that a ethnic pro-Albanian could vote that, making it a better indicator)

Unfortunately there is no analytical report on any Albania election per district, just national data. I have just found a minor report on 1996 elections where in Novoselë, a municipality north of Vlora, (which means farther north of the so called minority zone), the minority candidate won 1819 votes [4]] P. 96 Can. no. 5, electoral zone 113.]. Another more argument that makes the '202' obsolete.Alexikoua (talk) 22:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, the mayor of Himara (in Vlore district which the 1989 census states) is from the minority, suppose he had won with more than 202 votes in order to become mayor in a ca. 7.000 pop. municipality. Considering also that ethnic pro-Albanians are a bit difficult to vote him (on 9 May 2008 a fanatical murdered one of his relatives in Himara, so suppose they don' t like him much), this event opposes the 202 argument too.Alexikoua (talk) 23:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess we can conclude that there are Greeks in the vicinity of Vlorë, and there is discussion about how many. The issue here is whether the modern Greek name should be mentioned in the "names" section (I see no major objection against that) and whether the ancient Greek name should be mentioned in the lead (I see no good reason for that). What's your (plural) opinion on this? Markussep ^Talk 11:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I made this point before and I will make it again. Let's look at the Marseilles intro:

Marseille, (English alt. Marseilles IPA: /mɑrˈseɪ/ — French: pronounced [maʁsɛj], locally [mɑχˈsɛjɐ] — Provençal Occitan: Marselha [maʀˈsejɔ, maʀˈsijɔ] in classical norm or Marsiho [maʀˈsijɔ] in Mistralian norm — Origin: Greek: Massalia / Μασσαλία) is the second-largest city of France and forms the third-largest metropolitan area, after

The naming conventions are not written in stone. I had agreed with Balkanian on a compromise following the Marseilles pattern. Apart from Marseilles this seems to be the pattern in other articles as well. Let's look at Corfu. The Latin name is there even though there is no Latin minority there. Last time I checked the Latins were not even around anymore, in any place. Dr.K. (logos) 11:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The difference between the Marseille and Vlorë articles is that Marseille has all the alternative names in the lead, and Vlorë has a names section. I think the Marseille lead is clogged up with names and pronunciations beyond readability, and not a good example of how the Vlorë article should be. Therefore a names section, as in several other articles (Bratislava, Pécs, Prague) and supported by the WP:NCGN guideline, would be better in this case IMO. Noone is suggesting to remove Αυλών completely. Markussep ^Talk 12:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Tasos, thats what I am saying: We agreed that the Greek name would be in the lead, because there was no Names section. Now, we should agree that all names will be in the lead or all names would be in the Names section. This is how WP:NCGN guides us.
Alexicoua, please see here the results of2007 elections in Vlora, PBDNJ, the party of minorities (i.e. greeks, vlachs, serbians, etc_) won only 772 votes. So your argument cannot be real here.Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

If all and only Greeks would vote for that list (and I don't expect many Serbians around Vlorë, Vlachs?), they would be 2.5% in Vlorë (and 31% in Himarë, 42% in Finiq, 55% in Livadhje, 59% in Dropull i Poshtëm), that might be the best estimate we have (on total population about 3,000 then). The question is: is the modern Greek name relevant enough to mention it in the Names section? I propose to move Αυλών from the lead to the Names section, and to add Αυλώνας to the Names section. OK? Markussep ^Talk 15:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with Massalia?? I don't think it would be a problem adding all names in the lead, besides, we're not giving phonetic alaphabet as in that article. Just make sure all names will be relevant enough.--Michael X the White (talk) 16:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

By the time I get to the Mistralian form of the Provençal name I've lost track of the sentence, that's wrong ;-) The advantage of the Names section is that there is room to discuss the origin of the name(s). For relevant names we have Vlorë, Avlona, Valona (both formerly used in English), Αυλών, Αυλώνας (if there's agreement on that), and an alternative Albanian version seems to be Vlonë. Markussep ^Talk 16:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

2007 election results makes the '202 Vlore district' argument seem more like science fiction. However, I agree that the numbers given by election, give us just a blur image. About the name, I believe the best solution will be Greek:Αυλών , and not the dimotiki version Αυλώνας (something similar with Ioannina and the dimotiki version I{J}annena, the archaic form remains the official name in Greek).

What I believe and looks really weird is that we note the name Αυλών as ancient Greek only... Well, the city was under the (medieval Greek speaking) Byzantine Empire when it felt to the Serbian one at 1345 (together with Canina and Orikum) and it was called Αυλών, by byzantine sources too. So, Αυλών is the name in Ancient, Koine and medieval Greek... (and in my view, modern too) Alexikoua (talk) 18:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't see why having a distinction between ancient or more recent Greek.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

On a name section, or in the lead?Balkanian`s word (talk)

Wherever decided. Unless if you see the names corresponding to different historical eras, in the sense of the "ancient" name refers to the ancient colony, and the modern Greek name refers to the current state of the city, if you see what I mean. Don't forget that there is no ancient, koine and modern really; it is one, unbreakable and continuous language for thousands of years.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, lats put the both in the names section. Do you agree?Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok Balkanian. Let's put them there if that makes you happy. Dr.K. (logos) 20:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Lead

I have recently done a bit of investigation, and discovered material that changes the current consensus of keeping the Greek name out of the lead. First and most important, a number of English language sources refer to the city by its Greek name, Avlona [5]. Thus, many of wikipedia's readers are likely to encounter the city's name in the Greek form. Secondly, i have found a reliable source here that speaks of 8,000 Greek inhabitants as of 1994 [6] (..."thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994)...") on page 7. Also in Vickers and Pettifer here [7], page 188 ("The 4000 strong Greek community in Vlore..."). In light of these new findings, and combined with the fact that city was founded as an ancient Greek colony and all archeological sources refer to it by its Greek name, I think that re-adding the Greek name in the lead is fully warranted per WP:NCGN. --Athenean (talk) 21:16, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Google Search:38,700 of Avlona mostly greek or copied by wiki. Google Search Vlore: 1,870,000 Even Pettifer who is a strong supporter of greek minority, says "perhaps". And it is not at all clear if he is talking about the city or the district. Also Thessaloniki was once populated by many Israelites, but it is no more. No greek name in Vlore, no neogreeks living there. --Sarandioti (talk) 21:28, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

what are "neogreeks"? Google searches are useless because they include all kinds of junk (e.g. commercial, or nationalist, websites). What matters are reliable sources, such as books. My google books search shows that numerous reliable sources refer to the city by its Greek name. Your objections are therefore irrelevant, as is your argument about Thessaloniki. --Athenean (talk) 21:31, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

He is quite sure about the city (no district off course). It says perhaps, perhaps they are more than 8,000.Alexikoua (talk) 21:36, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

you know what neogreeks are, just translate it in greek. It is a popular term I believe. Even your "source"

says "perhaps", "maybe", etc. Find something CONCRETE and maybe we can re-discuss this in the future. And you cant say that google search is irrelevant. No one searches for Avlona except greeks. You cant add a name based on fictional numbers based on "perhaps". --Sarandioti (talk) 21:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

No point in discussing with someone who refuses to understand wikipedia rules. I have also shown not one, but two srouces. Your objections are irrelevant. I am adding the Greek name, as it is fully warranted by WP:NCGN. --Athenean (talk) 21:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Vickers says there were 4,000 in 40's (shes is sure on that in p. 188), sounds reasonable if they numbered 8,000 in 90's unless Albanian authorities have a nice hobby on 'deleting' minorities.Alexikoua (talk)

If you add it Athenean I will consider your action as edit-warring. And no one is interested in your OR conclusion Alexikoua. In the same fashion, Arvanites who were 200,000 in 1830 today should be about 2 mil.--Sarandioti (talk) 21:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Athenean you argument is totally ridiculous and baseless. You are using vague sources with weasel words like "perhaps", no matter if they are vickers of pettifer. There are no greeks whatsoever in the city of Vlora. Nobody but greeks, refers to Vlora as Avlona. Stop pushing your nationalistic POV.--I Pakapshem (talk) 21:55, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Vaugue sources? who? Vickers? Petiffer? If you agree, I will be happy to make a nice Vickers clean up on Cham Albanians. (this madness must stop)Alexikoua (talk) 22:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

So now we are basing edits on Petiffer's "perhaps"?? Great logic, really. This shows you desperation to find evidence about minorities. --Sarandioti (talk) 22:02, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Stop spamming, and read my reply. --Sarandioti (talk) 22:04, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Suppose this mean u believe in Vickers (she is sure). But your albani fanatism doesnt let you admit it.Alexikoua (talk) 22:06, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems as if you don't understand proper English. In this case, wether it is Vickers or Petiffer or even God himself the wording of your citation is totally vague and unreliable. Jut because Vickers and Pettifer are good sources for one article, it doesn't make them good sources for every article. This is totally flawed logic. Your and Athenean's nationalistic tag team editing has gone to a new level. The maddness must truly stop. You are makind tendentious and arbirtray edits without any sort of consensus, just because you are grasping at some vague source straws. --I Pakapshem (talk) 22:10, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

What I have to say on that?

Jut because Vickers and Pettifer are good sources for one article, it doesn't make them good sources for every article.(Pakapsem)

Why too much fanatism? Did we declare war? Its a clear academic approach by 'rs' authors, dont see everything black-red.Alexikoua (talk) 22:13, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Sara-logic: If a source backs my POV in a particular article, then it is a good source for that article. If it doesn't back my POV on another article, then it is a bad source for that article. How trite. --Athenean (talk) 22:15, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a PERHAPS people!! Do you understand that?? Even Pettiffer doesnt say anything concrete about it, he just says maybe. And now you make perhaps=definitely. Does that make sense?? --Sarandioti (talk) 22:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

No Athenean, that's how you reason. It's about how reliable the particular citation is. You pathetic attempts at reasoning your changes are the only trite things here. Alexikoua, the only fanatism here is show by you and Athenean. I don't know wether you declared war or not, but you are certainly edit warring and pushing your extreme nationalist POV in every Albanian related article there is. --I Pakapshem (talk) 22:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The "perhaps" means it is perhaps 8000, perhaps more, perhaps less. Not perhaps there are Greeks, perhaps there aren't. Trite indeed. --Athenean (talk) 22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a weasel word. Perhaps there are 80 greeks, or even 8 greeks. Does that warrant the adding of the greek name then? Totally and utterly ridiculous nationalistic POV pushing.--I Pakapshem (talk) 22:30, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Name consensus

Now that the disruptive editors have been sidelined, I would like to re-open the debate on whether to include the Greek name in the lead, as a result of new evidence I have found. Specifically:

• First and most important, a number of English language sources refer to the city by its Greek name, Avlona [8]. Thus, many of wikipedia's readers are likely to encounter the city's name in the Greek form. This by itself is sufficient to warrant inclusion of the Greek name in the lead
• A reliable source that speaks of 8,000 Greek inhabitants as of 1994 [9] (..."thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994)...") on page 7. A
• Another reliable source that speaks of 4000 Greeks in 1944 [10], page 188 ("The 4000 strong Greek community in Vlore...").
• The was founded as an ancient Greek colony and archeological sources refer to it by its Greek name.

In light of the above, I think that re-adding the Greek name in the lead is fully warranted per WP:NCGN. --Athenean (talk) 21:16, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Is the modern Greek name (nominative case) Avlon or Avlona? Apart from that: from what I see in the Google Books search above, Avlona is used in old English books (pre-1920) and in historic context. I think this means it's a relevant name, so it should be mentioned somewhere. Currently, it's mentioned in the names section, which is recommended by the WP:NCGN guideline if there are three or more alternative names. No need to put Avlona in the lead IMO, but that's not explicitly forbidden by the guideline. I don't think Avlon should be in the lead, like it is now, I'd say either all alternatives in the lead, or none (only in the names section). Markussep ^Talk 11:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, there aren't three or more relevant alternative names. The only other relative alternative name besides Greek is Italian. The Macedonian and Serbian names are completely irrelevant and I have removed them. They were spuriously added by User:Balkanian`s word precisely in order to manipulate WP:NCGN so as to keep the Greek name out of the lead. --Athenean (talk) 19:30, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, we have ancient Greek Αυλών/Avlon, Avlona (which language is this?), Italian Valona, and modern Greek (check?) Αυλώνας/Avlonas. I don't think we should have both a names section and a list of alternative names in the lead. Since the names section is more than just a list of names (it gives some etymology as well), we should keep that. So I conclude we shouldn't list alternative names in the lead. Markussep ^Talk 20:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree.