Talk:Egyptian hieroglyphs

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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Markh 12:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yogh (ȝ)

Obviously this is not the correct character to use for Egyptological alef. That character will be in Unicode 5.1. Should we keep yogh without comment until later? Evertype 07:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Use

Rktect 22:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Stele

the word is spelt stele not stela

From dictionary.com ... "ste·la (stl)pl. steles, also ste·lae (-l) An upright stone or slab with an inscribed or sculptured surface, used as a monument or as a commemorative tablet in the face of a building."

bv,bvmnbvmbn

Notes

Those three notes to a Tour Guide ... with all that had been written on hieroglyphs, to give references to that? — Just an opinion.--Barbatus 04:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Where did 'o' originate?

Just a question... I've heard reconstructed Egyptian on a number of occasions and there always seems to be an 'o' pronounced here and there. Since there is no 'o' in Ancient Egyptian, how do we know when to pronounce it? Such as names like Sobek or Poker (and later, Osiris), when was it decided to pronounce them this way and what was the explanation?84.250.246.42 09:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

In the New Kingdom many new glyphs were developed. It was one of the clues Champoleon used in deciphering Ptolomy and Cleopatra.Rktect 22:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

There must have been the 'o' sound in Ancient Egyptian they just did not write down vowels because they do not add much to the meaning of a word as you will see. Unfrtntly bth Ptlmy nd Clptr r Grk wrds so not very good examples and Osiris was written Wsir in Egyptian. I think much of the pronouciation comes from studying the Coptic language and ancient foreign languages which mention Egyptian names. Keith Hazell 22:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

In Egyptian there is a "U" which comes into use as in the Ninth dynasty of Egypt and becomes common in the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt under Akhenaten.

see also the "W" sound, but the "O" sound is Greek. See Gardiner, "Egyptian Grammar", p 27 Rktect 12:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

As a related question there is Egyptian refered to on page 27 as equivalent to Greek lambda, but in the Sign list as nt. I'm not sure if the leo in Cleopatra comes forth from some variant of as in /rw/ > rule > cruel > el Rktect 12:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Format Error

Please see the following section: Writing System→Phonetic compliments. After a number of hieroglyphs (and their explanation), the paragraph says

Finally, it sometimes happens that the pronunciation of words might be changed because of their connection to ...

Then, there is a major grammar/structure error in the beginning of the next paragraph. It starts as follows:

nouns; they are always accompanied by a mute vertical stroke indicating ...

I am unsure as to how to rectify the error. My first impression is to take nouns and make it a level 4 heading, then continue as it is.—Red Baron 21:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that - it was ancient vandalism, I have replaced the missing sections and it looks a little better now. Cheers Markh 08:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

determinative=ideograph?

Is it a convention to call a determinative "ideograph" in the field of Egyptology? pls revert my edits if it is so. But I feel that the very appearance of the word "ideograph" in the article could lead the readers astray. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 04:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

a must read

http://www.magtudin.org/Origin%20I.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.21.25.155 (talk) 00:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

Which bird is that?

Greetings,

Do you happen to know which bird is that?

Could it be a Shoebill? According to Encyclopedia Aarabiah the image of this bird was engraved on the walls of ancient Egyptian temples. Could you elaborate on this matter? Lior 07:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

This glyph corresponds to the mythological bennu. It is believed to be based on a type of heron. — Zerida 19:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

its listed as G31 Gardiner p 470 Heron, det in bnu (bynw) Phoenix, a very similar bird is det in snty Heron.Rktect 22:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

hieroglyphics = evil?

i heard that hieroglyphics were seen as evil fighting evil - that only the gods or those entrusted with them could use them.... & somehow that it protected evil by supporting it... someone verify/edit/ ?

Hieroglyphic (and its cursive versions, hieratic and demotic) was simply the standard writing system of the Egyptian language, and it was used for any kind of religious or civil use. The extant hieroglyphic texts include such "unmagical" things as trial records, geometry excercise books, private letters, commercial invoices... Legends about hieroglyphs being a mysterious magic writing arose in the hellenistic age, when the Egyptian language had switched to the Greek alphabet and no one in Egypt could understand hieroglyphs anymore. 194.176.201.29 08:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Phonetic complements

I would be bold and change this, but I'm an amateur.

A question regarding the following passage:

swt, "reed" - the t is the phonetic complement.

How is the t a phonetic complement?

reads sw, not swt in the first place. The t is an additional sound; it does not clarify the reading of sw. --Birdman1 ^{talk/contribs} 15:04, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree; this is not an example of a phonetic complement. I would just eliminate it. There are several other examples in the section that actually discusses phonetic complements. — Zerida 22:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Gardiner p 588 swt (M23), Ideo., a plant perhaps sedge or scirpus reed, p73 n 10; swt old indp. pron/, 3rd singular, sw pron. compound, he, it § 124.

See also:

• 14. Antonio Loprieno Template:Section:Book reference after authorRktect 22:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup clarity

26-Aug-2007: I have been analyzing the text, in an effort to improve the clarity of concepts presented. I have changed some linked phrases and added phrases to improve clarity. However, I think IMO, that more simple, generalized, overview statements should be added, because too many detailed examples are presented very abruptly, with little introduction for clarity of concepts. I realize it can be difficult to write smooth and clear intro sections about complex issues, so that writing could take a while to complete. -Wikid77 08:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Typesetting hieroglyphs

26-Aug-2007: Some writers had intended the hieroglyphic symbols to appear embedded within paragraphs; however, those symbols split to separate lines on some browsers. I specifically re-typeset the hieroglyphic symbols using various techniques:

• put text in HTML-divisions: <div> my text </div>
• indented by colon (":"), each paragraph containing hieroglyphs;
• indented by asterisk ("*") a bullet with hieroglyphs;
• indented by colon-asterisk (":*") for hieroglyph sub-examples.

Some hieroglyphic symbols are short, fitting within the interline spacing; however, some symbols are quite tall, causing an interline gap for fitting those tall symbols. I tried to shrink tall symbols by using small-font tags ("<small> tiny text </small>"), but the symbols would not shrink with font-size. Smaller symbols would be good to have. -Wikid77 08:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Repeating redundancy

26-Aug-2007: Ironically, I have had to re-introduce redundant wording into this article explaining redundant hieroglyphic spellings, despite the issue (above) to "avoid redundancies" for concise writing. On the contrary, during the explanations of complex Egyptian symbols, it is NOT the time to be close-mouthed and discreet. Although brevity can display an aura of sophistication in writing, clear descriptions of Egyptian writing do not require proof of author sophistication. Please repeat concepts (in other words, restate key ideas) in a variety of styles at each point, in an effort to clarify concepts to a range of readers, before adding more concepts in follow-on sections. I strongly recommend: "tell 'em what you plan to say, then tell 'em, and then tell 'em what you told them." Many people will find the information fascinating, but very confusing, so by all means, explain concepts 3 times, but with the final recap shorter. Bored readers will skip the recap sections, but others will gain insights there. Do I hear, "I copy that"? -Wikid77 08:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Foreign signsets used

This article needs a warning that it uses foreign letters, signs or other annotations that do not appear in the Latin or otherwise modern languages.

How are the hyroglyphics written into the text? Rhinocerous Ranger (talk) 22:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Boustrophedon?

Was the language written boustrophedon style? Chris (talk) 12:41, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

No. Direction depended on the layout of the writing surface - walls on opposite sides of a doorway might have writing in opposite directions. kwami (talk) 18:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Hieroglyphics - other meanings?

In Slavic and some other East European languages (perhaps influenced by Russian) the word Hieroglyph (Russian: иероглиф) is used to describe Chinese characters (in Chinese or Japanese). In fact, it's the only way to say a Chinese character in Russian. Is there this meaning in English or some other European languages? I know some people frowned when somebody referred to Hanzi/Kanji as Hieroglyphs. In my opinion, the word Hieroglyph should not be used in relation to old Egyptian language alone but in reference to any Logographic system. --Atitarev (talk) 23:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I've seen 'hieroglyphs' used to describe other similar systems, although the Egyptian sense is the most common. Actually, the Wikipedia Hieroglyph page describes other uses. YngNghymru (talk) 22:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Flamingo?

Hi there, i'm totally new to this and so may just be getting mixed up with how i'm interpreting things. However, in the 'Logograms' section, where there's a representation of the glyph meaning 'flamingo' it says "the corresponding phonogram means "red"", but i can't actually see a corresponding phonogram-just the bird glyph and the determinative telling me it's a logogram. is the "red" phonbnmbmbogram missing? or am i just misinterpreting what's being said? Can anybody help me on this? Thanks Greebo cat (talk) 23:52, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

External Links

• • The Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic Alphabet Game A popular game designed to teach the user the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic alphabet.
  • Egyptology Games A must for the serious student wanting to learn the meaning and use of hieroglyphs.

Can these external links be placed on the Egyptian Hieroglyph page please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sw81245 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No, they are spam. See WP:SPAM and WP:EL. Ward3001 (talk) 17:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

link to polish Wikipedia

please add the link to pl.Wiki - [[pl:Hieroglify]] Derski (talk) 22:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Link to finnish Wikipedia

It would be very nice if someone could add a link to finnish Wikipedia - [[fi:Hieroglyfit]] DiamondClaw 19.07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Link to spanish Wikipedia

Also, there is no link to spanish Wikipedia - [[es:Jeroglífico]] Fedeluis (talk) 13:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Done, done, and done. That should've been handled by a bot. And we were missing French, which was FA. Don't know what happened. kwami (talk) 14:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Cartouche artifacts

In the "Cartouche" section, I'm seeing rectangular lines around the curves at the left and right ends of the cartouches. -- Beland (talk) 19:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Skara Brae

I recently came across the image of an inscription found in the Orcadian Neolithic village of Skara Brae which you can see here. The explanation provided there for its existence is speculative at best. Nonetheless the resemblance to say

is interesting. I have not been able to find an academically credible discussion of the subject and wondered if anyone could either point me to one, or perhaps other examples of extra-Egyptian primitive hieroglyphs? Ben MacDui 16:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Rosetta Stone

I was rather surprised to find this text:

The real breakthrough in decipherment began in the early 1800s by scholars as Silvestre de Sacy, Akerblad and Thomas Young. Finally, Jean-François Champollion made the complete decipherment. The discovery in 1799 of the Rosetta Stone by Napoleon's troops (during Napoleon's Egyptian invasion) provided the motivation to study the script, but the text on the stone was of almost no use in decipherment.

I think it's interesting to note that the articles on these scholars who provided the breakthrough mentioned here all state that their work all revolved around the text of the Rosetta stone! To suggest that the text was unimportant is patent nonsense and I've removed it, along with revising the wording a bit to make it flow. Any discussion? EthanL (talk) 10:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I am by no means an expert, but I agree with your assessment. Ben MacDui 12:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Determinatives

The determinatives used seem to me to have pretty much exactly the same purpose as Chinese radicals, such as disambiguating homophones and reinforcing the idea of the word. The description of the "papyrus" determiner put me very much in mind of the 言 radical. Could someone elaborate? 137.205.74.230 (talk) 22:54, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

They're both determinatives. kwami (talk) 22:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Photoshop or Rare/Deformed Glyph?

Take a look at the image with the black hieroglyphics. 2nd Column from the left, 5 down. Is that a real animal or a photo-shopped monster? Its very un-Egyptian looking! I suspect foul play but I leave this to you experts. Let me know please as I'm very curious.

-Knowl <(Go to my user page to play WIKI RP! Its FUN and educational!) (talk) 12:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure doesn't look Egyptian to me. I don't have Gardiner with me, but I doubt I'd find it there. kwami (talk) 20:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I looked around Google images for a while last night and it looks like this is part of one of the sarcophagi in the British Museum. However, the entire thing is covered in writing so unless someone had a very detailed collection of photographs from every angle it is hard to verify if this is real or not. The user who uploaded it is an anonymous IP from the Ford Motor Company. It might not be malicious; maybe just a FARK leftover that someone mistook for the real thing. Its a shame really because aside from the one suspicious glyph its a very good photo compared to the one that was previously in its place. -Knowl <(Go to my user page to play WIKI RP! Its FUN and educational!) (talk) 21:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Well done for looking. Ankhnesneferibre was an obvious search argument and I think it was that one which enabled me to find firm evidence. I have preserved the amusing image in this blog posting. — RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 06:12, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha! Nice! Now the only mystery left is what this thing is. Alien VS predator reference? Godzilla? The ghost of LBJ? Someone posted on my talk page claiming it was their doing, but never said what it was. -Knowl -<(I am questing for Knowledge!) (talk) 09:37, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

What posting on your talk page? You are not by any chance referring to this edit are you? — RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 10:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Small change

Unless im mistaken the translation of the Jackel actually means 'Anubis' which is the Jackel headed god so i made a slight ajustment there

there was something else i wanted to do too but i forgot —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boves (talk • contribs) 10:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Strange wording

I'm not an expert, but I have noticed some passages that seem inconsistent, but I'm not sure how to remedy some of these instances of bad wording or internal logic.

Under "History and evolution", it is claimed that "simplified glyph forms developed, resulting in the hieratic (priestly) and demotic (popular) scripts". The article Hieratic, though, emphasises (citing a scholarly source) that this script is not derived from hieroglyphs, instead being a parallel development.

Under "Decipherment of hieroglyphic writing", the article says "[...] an attempt by an Egyptian intellectual to rescue an unrecoverable past". In the face of the results of modern Egyptology, it is not very fortunate to call the Egyptian past "unrecoverable", as it has obviously been recovered to a considerable extent.

It also says that the hieroglyphs were the inspiration for the Semitic alphabets; however, according to article pointed to, strictly speaking, it was rather the hieratic, not the hieroglyphic script that provided the immediate inspiration. This imprecise statement needs fixing and the article on hieratic should mention that hieratic was the model for the alphabet.

Under "Spelling", the article says "Furthermore, the Egyptians were perfectly content to include older orthography ("historical spelling") alongside newer practices, as if it were acceptable in English to use the spelling of a given word from 1600 in a text written today." The comparison with English is the worst you could come up with, since English is famous for its historical spelling - basically, what is described there is indeed current practice in English!

I have also deleted some paragraphs from "Etymology" that, besides sounding as if they rather belonged to the Simple English Wikipedia, or had been copied from somewhere else, did not belong to the subject of the section. Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

WikiHiero syntax

I have recently noticed that the glyphs on the Rossetta stone face the right, that means that the Rossetta stone glyphs would be read from right to left, not left to right, so is there a way to "flip" the gliphs when using the WikiHiero syntax? Oh, and is it possible to manually make the gliphs smaller like pictures and thumbnails? Buɡboy52.4 (talk) 22:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

It is a convention that the hieroglyphs are written left to right. Wikihiero doesn't allow right-to-left righting, as far as I know Markh (talk) 00:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

using WikiHiero

how do you use WikiHiero, like on your use page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Imperfect.dark (talk • contribs) 08:25, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Looking for some help

I'm hoping someone here might be able to point me in the right direction.

For the article Lod, a city in Israel, I'm trying to find the first recorded use of a name for the city. The first person to write about it was apparently the pharaoh Thutmose III, who, in 1465 BCE, drew up a list of towns in Caanan. I have found this page that mentions Lydda in this context (if you search for Lydda, you'll see the entry).

Does anyone know what this means? Is it saying that this was the name Thutmose III used for the town, and if so, exactly which symbols made up the name, and do we have any idea how it would have been pronounced? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Egyptian hieroglyphs

How egyptian hieroglyphs were finally decoded? Two explanation.