Talk:Heracles: Difference between revisions
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→why did hera hate Heracles so much?: anyone game enough? |
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a weiner |
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Some information I have here says that The Apples of Hesperides is the final labor, and cerberus is the eleventh. Someone please look into this... what accounts for the difference in order? |
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:Try doing a search on google -- Cerberus is the twelfth on all the sites I found. There may be alternate versions, though. A lot of mythological stories have multiple variations. Maybe something should be added to the article about other versions... [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] |
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== why did Hera hate Heracles so much? == |
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why did hera hate Heracles so much? [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] 03:32, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC) |
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:Because she hated all of her husband's children by women other than her. I don't know why she seemed to hate him so much more than the others. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 19:14, Jan 20, 2004 (UTC) |
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I'm pretty sure it's because it was the first child with a mother other then her that she learned about.-[[User:Flyingcheese|Flyingcheese]] 01:18, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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Graves explains much of Greek mythology as stories justifying historical events; largely the replacement of an original "Triple Goddess" matriarchical religion with a patriarchical religion brought by invaders. Graves was a little strange so I don't know how well received his interpretations are today, but in a number of ways at least, they make a lot of sense. And he was certainly the most learned classicist of his generation. |
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In this particular case, Heracles is interpreted as originally a kind of male champion of the female Triple Goddess, of whom Hera was the "mother" form. After the defeat of the matriarchical society by the patriarchical, the priests essentially would have announced that Heracles was actually the victim of the Triple Goddess, not her champion—much as a political leader today might try to publicly rewrite his or her personal history, however well-known, in order to match changes in public opinion. So Hera became the enemy of Heracles, and his feats, formerly accomplished to prove his worthiness as champion, now became proofs of male superiority. |
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Hera's hostility towards Zeus and his (and his progeny's) dominance over her are generally explained this way by Graves. |
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--[[User:207.237.240.192|207.237.240.192]] 16:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC) |
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::Graves' version is a part of the story. Any modern text offers more preceptive insights than out current jejune attempt in this article. Is anyone game to give us a couple of paragraphs on interpretations of this complicated relationship? --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 08:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC) |
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== On Heracles' male lovers == |
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Far be it from me to start a dispute, but if you would remove the list of his male lovers from the section on his sex life, please give your reasons.--[[User:Haiduc|Haiduc]] 02:30, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC) |
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I didn't remove the list before (nor am I now), but it comes across as awkward (for lack of a better word) and somewhat POV; that is, it seems like its simply there to be scandalous. I'm not saying that it should be entirely removed; in fact, I think it should largely stay. I think that it could probably be shortened, though. I would recommend keeping the introduction to the list, and then (having already mentioned that they are numerous, the list itself becomes somewhat superfluous) limiting the list to the most important men, preferably with a short description of their importance in the Heracles myth(s).--MS |
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== hercules == |
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Is "Heracles" is another name for Hercules? |
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[[User:83.130.3.195|83.130.3.195]] 19:12, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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*Heracles is the Greek name and Hercules is his Roman name. So yes, they are the same person. [[User:CanadianCaesar|CanadianCaesar]] 7 July 2005 23:36 (UTC) |
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== Eclipse Date == |
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The September 7, 1251 BCE eclipse date for Herakels birth is contradicted by all the major sources including Jerome ([[Chronicon]]), Eusebius (Preparation of the Gospel) and Apollodorus. February 10 1286 BC is the most likely date for the eclipse when one night was turned into three. Jerome places the end of Herakles 12 Labours in 1246 BC (see translation of Jeromes [[Chonicon]] by Roger Pearse et al.) Eusebius along with Clement and Apollodorus place Herakles reign over Argos about 91 years before the end of the Trojan War (1183 BC). If Herakles was born in 1250 then he would be younger than Theseus who was 50 when he abducted Helen (according to Plutarch's Lives), which according to Jerome occurred in 1222 BC. The September 7, 1251 BCE date should be removed and replaced with February 10 1286 BC. Calculating back from when Herakles ruled over Tyrines in Argos at the same time as Eurestheus ruled over Mycenae in 1264 BC (Jerome, Eusebius, Clement and Apollodorus), Herakles would have been born at least 18 years earlier in 1282 BC. This shows that the February 10 1286 BC eclipse date is corroborated by these ancient historians and the only date that fits the historical facts.--[[User:Argyrosargyrou|Argyrosargyrou]] 16:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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(Eusebius in his Preperation of the Gospel quotes Clement saying that "from the reign of Hercules in Argos to the deification of Hercules himself and of Asclepius there are comprised thirty-eight years, according to Apollodorus the chronicler: and from that point to the deification of Castor and Pollux fifty-three years: and somewhere about this time was the capture of Troy.") User:Argyrosargyrou|Argyrosargyrou]] 16:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC) |
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I'm not sure if all of the speculation regarding the dates of Heracles' life should be included in the article, as it is just that, speculation. The application of modern astronomy to mythological figures is somewhat absurd. Moreover, trying to pin down a precise date for any event in Greek Myth is going to have serious problems due to the numerous, conflicting tellings and timelines that obscure any simple formulation of a mythological Greek "history." Going with that logic one might as well add that Heracles was believed to have paced out the Olympic stadium in 756 (a myth that someone should add to the article), which would have made him several hundred years old. It would be more helpful if it were simply stated that the Ancient Greeks believed he lived sometime in the 13th or 14th century B.C. rather than giving precise dates that would give the impression that he was a real person and that those events really happened at those specific times.--MS |
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A February 10 conception would place his birth in early November, but not necessarily the 4th. While ancient Greeks celebrated his birthday on the 4th of the month, remember ancient Greek months are not Roman ones. The ancient Greek calendar is essentially the same as the Jewish one - although different Greek states had different names for the months and started the year with a different month, they all followed the same lunar-based alternating 30/29 day month structure. [[User:Jess Cully|Jess Cully]] 10:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 18:38, 13 December 2005
a weiner