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:Yes this can tell new editors hitting the talk page what items have been resolved - a useful tool. --[[User:Bigweeboy|BwB]] ([[User talk:Bigweeboy|talk]]) 23:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
:Yes this can tell new editors hitting the talk page what items have been resolved - a useful tool. --[[User:Bigweeboy|BwB]] ([[User talk:Bigweeboy|talk]]) 23:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
== Third and Fourth Sentences in the Lede ==

{{Resolved|}}
This thread is getting long and so I have created a subsection so we can move the discussion forward without confusion.--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Keithbob|<b style="color:#060;"><i>K</i>bob</b>]] • [[User_talk:Keithbob|<span style="color:#085;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 19:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

::::::If the lede is going to mention the ownership of the servicemarks then the body of the article should go into greater detail about it. However it's now the opposite - there's nothing in the article about it all. Further, it makes an assertion about the ultimate ownership of the trademarks that isn't contained in the source. It's not clear why this is so important that it need sto be in the. Neither the Maharishi Foundation nor the MVEDC have articles, so it's not really informative at all. I suggest moving the entire sentence to somewhere in the body of the article (and finding a better source). &nbsp; <b>[[User:Will Beback|<font color="#595454">Will Beback</font>]]&nbsp; [[User talk:Will Beback|<font color="#C0C0C0">talk</font>]]&nbsp; </b> 04:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Good points [[User:Will Beback|<font color="#595454">Will Beback</font>]]. I was wondering about that myself. We'll have to find a better place for these points, if they are needed at all, and if we keep them, a better reference. Do others agree? [[User:ChemistryProf|ChemistryProf]] ([[User talk:ChemistryProf|talk]]) 16:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

:I agree with Wills suggestion to move the trademark info to another place. --[[User:Bigweeboy|BwB]] ([[User talk:Bigweeboy|talk]]) 17:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that we move both of these sentences out of the lede and into the body of the article for the reasons Will has stated. Neither of them are developed as topics or subtopics in the article and are therefore out of place in the lede. Also, neither of them cites a significant 2nd party source. Wiki guidelines state:
*The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject should be established in the first sentence of the lead, if possible." --<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Keithbob|<b style="color:#060;"><i>K</i>bob</b>]] • [[User_talk:Keithbob|<span style="color:#085;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 20:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

:I've moved the "servicemark" materil to the "Teaching procedure" section, where it follows logically. &nbsp; <b>[[User:Will Beback|<font color="#595454">Will Beback</font>]]&nbsp; [[User talk:Will Beback|<font color="#C0C0C0">talk</font>]]&nbsp; </b> 21:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

::I moved the sentence regarding the 2006 report that TM is one of 60 related products and services, to the History section. Since this has been proposed previously [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Transcendental_Meditation#Use_of_Term_.22Movement.22] and there were no objections to removing the sentence from the lede.--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Keithbob|<b style="color:#060;"><i>K</i>bob</b>]] • [[User_talk:Keithbob|<span style="color:#085;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 01:53, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

:::Yes, Will, this seems to be the right place for the servicemark material. KBob, the information that many other techniques or procedures are offered by the same organizations that offer the TM technique may belong somewhere in the article, but I still feel uneasy about the reference. It is information from one teacher quoted in a newspaper. Anyone who has ever been interviewed by a reporter knows how frequently mistakes are made. I suggest we keep on the lookout for a more reliable source for this point. [[User:ChemistryProf|ChemistryProf]] ([[User talk:ChemistryProf|talk]]) 21:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

::::Yes agreed, let's look for a better source.--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Keithbob|<b style="color:#060;"><i>K</i>bob</b>]] • [[User_talk:Keithbob|<span style="color:#085;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 16:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

== Fenwick, Source Needed ==

{{Resolved|sentence without source removed--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Keithbob|<b style="color:#060;"><i>K</i>bob</b>]] • [[User_talk:Keithbob|<span style="color:#085;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 18:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)}}
The following sentence, currently in the article, has no reliable source at the present time. I have searched the book cited using the search words "transcendental meditation" and also "EEG". Neither search yields any copy relevant to the statement below. Can we find a source for this? If not, it may need to be removed from the article.
*"Peter Fenwick has pointed out that Transcendental Meditation researchers have documented the phenomenon of EEG coherence during meditation and that EEG coherence is also a byproduct of epileptic seizures, comas, and death."<ref>[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7dYV9UJszlUC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0]</ref>

::I remember seeing somewhere recently research showing a number of positive characteristics related to EEG coherence. I’ll try to find that reference. In any case, if this current sentence is not backed up by a reliable reference, then it does not belong in the article. [[User:ChemistryProf|ChemistryProf]] ([[User talk:ChemistryProf|talk]]) 02:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

This text is currently in the article, right after the Fenwick sentence:
*Studies show that TM reduces the number of seizures in epileptic patients and normalizes their EEG. An experimental study that was done on the Transcendental Meditation technique and epilepsy found that the epileptic patients initially had abnormally low levels of 5-HIAA in the cerebral spinal fluid, which then increased to normal levels after several months of practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. This correlated with clinical improvements in these patients.<ref>Subrahmanyam S, Potkodi D. Neurohumoral correlates of transcendental meditation. Journal of Biomed 1980;1:73-88</ref>--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Keithbob|<b style="color:#060;"><i>K</i>bob</b>]] • [[User_talk:Keithbob|<span style="color:#085;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 19:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

:::I did find some scientific papers supporting the importance of high EEG coherence in execution of the higher functions of the brain. Here is just one example: Neuroimage. 2007 May 15;36(1):232-44. Epub 2007 Feb 27. "Human cortical circuits for central executive function emerge by theta phase synchronization." Mizuhara H, Yamaguchi Y. I vote for dropping both the Fenwick sentence and the related ones that follow it. [[User:ChemistryProf|ChemistryProf]] ([[User talk:ChemistryProf|talk]]) 03:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

::::Thanks, ChemistryProf, for finding that. I agree that Fenwick should be dropped unless it's in the context of a fuller discussion of the EEG research. I'd like to retain the following citation to research by Subrahmanyam, since it's relevant to the Persinger paragraph, in which he suggests that TM causes epilepsy. [[User:TimidGuy|TimidGuy]] ([[User talk:TimidGuy|talk]]) 15:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the following un-sourced sentence from the article, per the above discussion. If a reliable source is found. We can add it back in.
*Peter Fenwick has pointed out that Transcendental Meditation researchers have documented the phenomenon of EEG coherence during meditation and that EEG coherence is also a byproduct of epileptic seizures, comas, and death.<ref>[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7dYV9UJszlUC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0]</ref>--<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — [[User:Keithbob|<b style="color:#060;"><i>K</i>bob</b>]] • [[User_talk:Keithbob|<span style="color:#085;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 19:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

::::::Good work. --[[User:Bigweeboy|BwB]] ([[User talk:Bigweeboy|talk]]) 20:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this decision and also with the comment of [[User:TimidGuy|TimidGuy]] above. [[User:ChemistryProf|ChemistryProf]] ([[User talk:ChemistryProf|talk]]) 03:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

It is found in Rational Mysticism: Dispatches from the Border Between Science and Spirituality John Horgan, the book that it is linked to. P 116 [[User:Mozart&#39;s Left Ankle|Mozart&#39;s Left Ankle]] ([[User talk:Mozart&#39;s Left Ankle|talk]]) 18:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

:Thanks for pointing out the exact page of this book, Mozart. And welcome to the discussion page. --[[User:Bigweeboy|BwB]] ([[User talk:Bigweeboy|talk]]) 18:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

In case anyone cares, the only research that shows "coherence" of brainwaves that I've heard of has been done by MUM-affiliated scientists or students. I find it scientifically unacceptable due to COI (a replication by objective researchers would be needed to confirm).

During Dr. Glueck's study back in 1973 we found evidence that Alpha brainwaves are always exactly synchronized all over the skull. This might seem amazing, but the explanation is really quite simple. There is a group of cells, centrally located in or below the lower brain, that generates the Alpha frequency signal. This signal is conducted electrically by the large blood vessels in the brain prior to being picked up by electrodes attached to the scalp.

Indeed, for this reason there is no way that the Alpha signal can ever be unsynchronized. When the eyes are open, the large signals from optic processing drown out the Alpha signal, producing comparatively random activity that looks like desynchronization, due to the optic processing signals being so much higher in amplitude (much more of the brain is devoted to visual perception than to generating the Alpha signal).

So, mathematically, one can say that synchronization happens when the eyes are closed and disappears when the eyes are open, but true synchronization of functioning of separated areas of the brain has certainly not been demonstrated.

If one wanted to research this, EEG equipment is inadequate. Direct visualization of the electrical activity of the brain is required. This is possible with much more expensive (and much less common) laboratory equipment.

In any case, the effects on the brain of TM show no significant features in common with "epileptic seizures, comas, and death" (Alpha waves are not a significant feature). Confirm with any EEG researcher. If they did, one might expect these conditions to appear more often in TM meditators than in the general population. Trust me, that would be noticed!

Unfortunately, this information cannot be added to the article due to OR. But it might help make the discussion here more informed. [[User:David spector|David spector]] ([[User talk:David spector|talk]]) 18:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

:From what I understand, brainwave coherence is now a phenomenon generally studied among neuroscientists, not just TM researchers. It's also turning out to be of interest to those in the new field of quantum applications to neurological phenomena. Some recent TM research has focused on broadband frontal coherence, not alpha coherence. This phenomenon is associated with reduced anxiety, emotional stability and other positive outcomes. As you say, there's no evidence that there's a causal relationship between epileptic seizures, comas, and death. Since no one here seems to have the time or the interest currently to put this statement found in Horgan's book in the larger context of EEG research on TM, then the consensus here seems to be that it can be deleted for now. But since it comes up occasionally, I think that we'll eventually need to include an EEG section in the article. [[User:TimidGuy|TimidGuy]] ([[User talk:TimidGuy|talk]]) 15:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:34, 7 September 2009

Archive 20Archive 23Archive 24Archive 25Archive 26Archive 27Archive 30

David Orme-Johnson

Resolved

Interesting to see that Will Beback feels that D.W. Orme-Johnson warrant his own Wiki page. It is linked to from this page. --BwB (talk) 23:44, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

He has been perhaps the main researcher on TM-related issues, and has often been quoted in the mainstream media about the topic.   Will Beback  talk  23:51, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Orme Johnson is widely cited in regard to TM research.--KbobTalk 18:18, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

New sentence lede-Footnote Fix

Kbob. The new sentence you added has been added as part of the ref. Seems the sentence was supposed to be in the actual lede or am I wrong on that.(olive (talk) 19:45, 21 August 2009 (UTC))

I never make mistakes :-) but just in case I will check now--KbobTalk 20:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
No, me neither, never, absolutely not.(olive (talk) 20:46, 21 August 2009 (UTC))
I had some problems initially when I added the refs but now it seems OK. If you see mistake please fix it. Thanks,--KbobTalk 20:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
Resolved

Resolved Template

Resolved

I am going to start using the Resolved template on the talk page. Its a helpful tool any editor can add or delete to a talk page. For more info see here. [1]--KbobTalk 20:53, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes this can tell new editors hitting the talk page what items have been resolved - a useful tool. --BwB (talk) 23:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Third and Fourth Sentences in the Lede

Resolved

This thread is getting long and so I have created a subsection so we can move the discussion forward without confusion.--KbobTalk 19:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

If the lede is going to mention the ownership of the servicemarks then the body of the article should go into greater detail about it. However it's now the opposite - there's nothing in the article about it all. Further, it makes an assertion about the ultimate ownership of the trademarks that isn't contained in the source. It's not clear why this is so important that it need sto be in the. Neither the Maharishi Foundation nor the MVEDC have articles, so it's not really informative at all. I suggest moving the entire sentence to somewhere in the body of the article (and finding a better source).   Will Beback  talk  04:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Good points Will Beback. I was wondering about that myself. We'll have to find a better place for these points, if they are needed at all, and if we keep them, a better reference. Do others agree? ChemistryProf (talk) 16:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Wills suggestion to move the trademark info to another place. --BwB (talk) 17:04, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that we move both of these sentences out of the lede and into the body of the article for the reasons Will has stated. Neither of them are developed as topics or subtopics in the article and are therefore out of place in the lede. Also, neither of them cites a significant 2nd party source. Wiki guidelines state:

  • The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject should be established in the first sentence of the lead, if possible." --KbobTalk 20:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I've moved the "servicemark" materil to the "Teaching procedure" section, where it follows logically.   Will Beback  talk  21:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I moved the sentence regarding the 2006 report that TM is one of 60 related products and services, to the History section. Since this has been proposed previously [2] and there were no objections to removing the sentence from the lede.--KbobTalk 01:53, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Will, this seems to be the right place for the servicemark material. KBob, the information that many other techniques or procedures are offered by the same organizations that offer the TM technique may belong somewhere in the article, but I still feel uneasy about the reference. It is information from one teacher quoted in a newspaper. Anyone who has ever been interviewed by a reporter knows how frequently mistakes are made. I suggest we keep on the lookout for a more reliable source for this point. ChemistryProf (talk) 21:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes agreed, let's look for a better source.--KbobTalk 16:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Fenwick, Source Needed

Resolved

The following sentence, currently in the article, has no reliable source at the present time. I have searched the book cited using the search words "transcendental meditation" and also "EEG". Neither search yields any copy relevant to the statement below. Can we find a source for this? If not, it may need to be removed from the article.

  • "Peter Fenwick has pointed out that Transcendental Meditation researchers have documented the phenomenon of EEG coherence during meditation and that EEG coherence is also a byproduct of epileptic seizures, comas, and death."[1]
I remember seeing somewhere recently research showing a number of positive characteristics related to EEG coherence. I’ll try to find that reference. In any case, if this current sentence is not backed up by a reliable reference, then it does not belong in the article. ChemistryProf (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

This text is currently in the article, right after the Fenwick sentence:

  • Studies show that TM reduces the number of seizures in epileptic patients and normalizes their EEG. An experimental study that was done on the Transcendental Meditation technique and epilepsy found that the epileptic patients initially had abnormally low levels of 5-HIAA in the cerebral spinal fluid, which then increased to normal levels after several months of practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. This correlated with clinical improvements in these patients.[2]--KbobTalk 19:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I did find some scientific papers supporting the importance of high EEG coherence in execution of the higher functions of the brain. Here is just one example: Neuroimage. 2007 May 15;36(1):232-44. Epub 2007 Feb 27. "Human cortical circuits for central executive function emerge by theta phase synchronization." Mizuhara H, Yamaguchi Y. I vote for dropping both the Fenwick sentence and the related ones that follow it. ChemistryProf (talk) 03:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, ChemistryProf, for finding that. I agree that Fenwick should be dropped unless it's in the context of a fuller discussion of the EEG research. I'd like to retain the following citation to research by Subrahmanyam, since it's relevant to the Persinger paragraph, in which he suggests that TM causes epilepsy. TimidGuy (talk) 15:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the following un-sourced sentence from the article, per the above discussion. If a reliable source is found. We can add it back in.

  • Peter Fenwick has pointed out that Transcendental Meditation researchers have documented the phenomenon of EEG coherence during meditation and that EEG coherence is also a byproduct of epileptic seizures, comas, and death.[3]--KbobTalk 19:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Good work. --BwB (talk) 20:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this decision and also with the comment of TimidGuy above. ChemistryProf (talk) 03:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

It is found in Rational Mysticism: Dispatches from the Border Between Science and Spirituality John Horgan, the book that it is linked to. P 116 Mozart's Left Ankle (talk) 18:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the exact page of this book, Mozart. And welcome to the discussion page. --BwB (talk) 18:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

In case anyone cares, the only research that shows "coherence" of brainwaves that I've heard of has been done by MUM-affiliated scientists or students. I find it scientifically unacceptable due to COI (a replication by objective researchers would be needed to confirm).

During Dr. Glueck's study back in 1973 we found evidence that Alpha brainwaves are always exactly synchronized all over the skull. This might seem amazing, but the explanation is really quite simple. There is a group of cells, centrally located in or below the lower brain, that generates the Alpha frequency signal. This signal is conducted electrically by the large blood vessels in the brain prior to being picked up by electrodes attached to the scalp.

Indeed, for this reason there is no way that the Alpha signal can ever be unsynchronized. When the eyes are open, the large signals from optic processing drown out the Alpha signal, producing comparatively random activity that looks like desynchronization, due to the optic processing signals being so much higher in amplitude (much more of the brain is devoted to visual perception than to generating the Alpha signal).

So, mathematically, one can say that synchronization happens when the eyes are closed and disappears when the eyes are open, but true synchronization of functioning of separated areas of the brain has certainly not been demonstrated.

If one wanted to research this, EEG equipment is inadequate. Direct visualization of the electrical activity of the brain is required. This is possible with much more expensive (and much less common) laboratory equipment.

In any case, the effects on the brain of TM show no significant features in common with "epileptic seizures, comas, and death" (Alpha waves are not a significant feature). Confirm with any EEG researcher. If they did, one might expect these conditions to appear more often in TM meditators than in the general population. Trust me, that would be noticed!

Unfortunately, this information cannot be added to the article due to OR. But it might help make the discussion here more informed. David spector (talk) 18:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

From what I understand, brainwave coherence is now a phenomenon generally studied among neuroscientists, not just TM researchers. It's also turning out to be of interest to those in the new field of quantum applications to neurological phenomena. Some recent TM research has focused on broadband frontal coherence, not alpha coherence. This phenomenon is associated with reduced anxiety, emotional stability and other positive outcomes. As you say, there's no evidence that there's a causal relationship between epileptic seizures, comas, and death. Since no one here seems to have the time or the interest currently to put this statement found in Horgan's book in the larger context of EEG research on TM, then the consensus here seems to be that it can be deleted for now. But since it comes up occasionally, I think that we'll eventually need to include an EEG section in the article. TimidGuy (talk) 15:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
  1. ^ [3]
  2. ^ Subrahmanyam S, Potkodi D. Neurohumoral correlates of transcendental meditation. Journal of Biomed 1980;1:73-88
  3. ^ [4]