Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Belgium/Brussels naming conventions

I suggest we revive the discussion about the naming conventions proposed on this page. Please share your thoughts with other users, so we can finally bring the edit warring to an end. --Roofbird (talk) 15:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

If I may summarise:

• if English equivalent exists, use English; translations in infobox and first line are French-Dutch
• if not, use most frequent name in English usage, in title and throughout the page; but then other language goes first in the infobox and the first line.

 Agree I think this could keep peace. --Roofbird (talk) 15:15, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree to prefer English naming when it is common. Otherwise, take into account that the large majority of the population of Brussels speaks French (between 86 and 94% according to the latest local elections results, and the public acts (such as mariages and births)), and prefer the French name. Mro (talk) 15:56, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree, if there is a common English name then that should be used, if not then the most common usage of the two languages. This is in accordance with WP:PLACE and from that I'd also like to clarify that this is a motion against using both names (as WP:PLACE) and invented English and that this is a clarification of WP:PLACE rather than replacing it. Furthermore, the first in the infobox etc. should, as elsewhere on Wikipedia, be the language which comes earliest in the alphabet, so in all Belgian articles that would be Dutch, French then German.- _J.Logan`^t: 18:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid we have to drop the alphabetical order rule (although I think it is best): can you imagine how French-speakers would react if Brussel was put before Bruxelles in the Brussels article? An alternation (depending on which language is used in the title, de facto always French) is then a better (that is, universally applicable) solution, no? --Roofbird (talk) 18:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not so happy about the part "if English equivalent exists". Take Saint Gaugericus Island, I wonder if this obviously translated name is used in normal life, ever. Flagey Square, possibly the same. Let's skip that whole line, and replace it with "use the name that is most commonly used in English". The order of the names in the first line is not so important to me, I understand the argument that it's unexpected to see a different name than the one of the title as the first one. Markussep ^Talk 21:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

FYI, this page was actually designed to be the target of Template:Brusselsname, where appropriate:

I am, along with User:Hooiwind, who is on wikibreak, the author of this page. Part of the issue is that if we favour the "version most used in English", everything will always be in French and Dutch will get completely trampled. I like the idea of putting the Dutch first, then using French thereafter, because that is a reminder that Brussels is officially bilingual, but still preserves a reasonable solution. Having said that, I wouldn't mind a slight shift towards French from awkward double names.

Also, I created Saint Gaugericus Island, and that monstrosity is my fault. I have italicized easily on the guideline; judgement should be used in cases like this. I would think that in cases like this we should go to the next step, which is to favour French.

Another thing is that having both languages for things mentioned inline slows down the text. I wouldn't mind that just being English if possible, then French if not.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that I don't think any Flemings have really commented here yet, aside from my discussions with Hooiwind to get this into its current form (let me know if I'm wrong). It's not really a consensus if no Flemings agree. Thoughts? Oreo Priest ^talk 23:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

In december 2006 there was this proclamation of key people from Brussels.

We exist! 100 Citizens of Brussels from all Walks of Life and Origins

and among them several Flemings who are considering French as the "lingua franca" of Brussels. All the Flemings of Brussels don't share this opinion but it shows that a large majority of the inhabitants of Brussels are French-speaking. I am not a Francophone of Brussels, I am a Walloon. But I think that French should have a kind of priority and that is not (in my view), in contradiction with the officially bilingual regim of this Region. See also Commentaires sur l'Appel bruxellois (de Bruxellois flamands et francophones... José Fontaine (talk) 21:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC

In practice, that will be the case as English adopts the French name for most places and things. What about the alternation in the first line and infobox (depending on which language is used in the title, when not English)? Does everybody agree? And when English is used in the title, do we go alphabetically or for the order French-Dutch? FYI: I am Flemish (but obviously I can't speak for all of us).--Roofbird (talk) 09:02, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I think one Fleming out of four participants is enough to make sure any conclusions we reach are representative and fair, so that base is covered. Oreo Priest ^talk 15:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Specific sections

Given that we are in broad agreement about this, I'm going to break the discussion down into sections for clarity. Please comment on what you think of each step. Oreo Priest ^talk 15:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

English name/easily anglicized

• Example: Halle Gate

This section seems good to me. I think the keyword here is easily. (English-)French-Dutch in the title and infobox I think is most appropriate. Oreo Priest ^talk 15:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 Agree --Roofbird (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's be very careful with anglicized names, and not invent names that aren't used in real life. "Leopold Park", well maybe, but "Halle Gate" no, and definitely not "Law Street" or "Brussels-Chapel train station". Bottomline: let's only use that kind of translated names if they're commonly used in reliable published sources. Markussep ^Talk 16:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree about Law Street, but strongly defend Brussels-North, Brussels-South, Brussels-Central, Brussels Town Hall (or better Town Hall of Brussels), Luxembourg station (instead of Gare du Lux); and even Flagey Square (because translation is so obvious). Question is where I draw the line; have to think about that for a sec. :-) --Roofbird (talk) 16:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC) Maybe it's because we'd also translate city gates, squares, stations etc in Greece, Russia, China... where the indigenous language is unintelligble for us. --Roofbird (talk) 16:55, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

No English name

• Example: Ixelles, Sint-Jans-Molenbeek

I think this should be strengthened to read If the subject has no English name or cannot be reasonably anglicized. That way we avoid monstrosities like Saint Gaugericus Island. Oreo Priest ^talk 15:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 Agree But I don't think Saint Gaugericus Island is a monstrosity; it makes it clear after which saint it was named. As a bad translation example, I would use "Mount of Arts", "Artsberg", "Artsburg", "Mountain of Arts" or "Arts Mountain" for Mont des Arts or Kunstberg. --Roofbird (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, we disagree there, because I think it's awful. Try looking for it in Google Books, you won't find it. "Arts Mountain" is nice too, or "Koekel Mountain Basilica" ;-) Markussep ^Talk 16:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I simply love nor hate it. J'adore Coockle Mountain Basilica though. ;-) --Roofbird (talk) 16:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should add that if one name is overwhelmingly used in English, even if easily anglicizable, then that name should be used, eg. Place Flagey. Having said that, I'm not sure that's necessarily a good idea. Flagey Place would probably be just fine, and more neutral. Oreo Priest ^talk 15:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Difficult question. On the one hand, we need some consistency (so either all squares should be "X square" - better than "place"), on the other hand, we should follow common usage, and on the third hand (ahum) we should keep neutrality. I think "Flagey square" would be best. That means  Agree --Roofbird (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

First line and infobox

Common practice is to bold only one name in the first line, and give alternatives in brackets and in italics. In this case, we can give the alternative name more emphasis by bolding both. However, I think the first name should be the same as the title, because that's what readers expect (and probably that's why Westermarck's swaps were reverted so quickly). We could use the reversed order in the infobox. Markussep ^Talk 16:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It is already common practice for articles on Brussels to bold both official names (when no English equivalent exists), we should definitely keep that (as you say). I really like the alternation, it draws the attention to the fact that both names are correct and serves as a good compromise (without annoying the reader, since the title follows a few words later). If it weren't for that, there is really no compensation at all for a French-all-over policy and we can expect disgruntled Dutch-speakers to come up sooner rather than later accusing us of an unfair preference for French (and they would be right). The alternation is symbolic, but at least we have something at hand to defend a French title (and the use of French inline) and keep people from opening this discussion again. --Roofbird (talk) 16:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Things mentioned inline

I would prefer choosing just one name, corresponding to the way we name articles. So Halle Gate, and rue Neuve instead of rue Neuve/Nieuwstraat. Having two slows down the text and makes it harder to read. If there's a lot of opposition to this, however, I could live with the double names where appropriate. Oreo Priest ^talk 15:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 Agree for Halle Gate, do not agree for rue Neuve/Nieuwstraat. We should use both (but please no "New Street"). I don't think it slows down the text so much, double streetnames are just one of those things that belong to Brussels. Convenient is also that many names are bilingual and used on maps and signs ("Boulevard Anspachlaan", "Rue Beekstraat" etc). --Roofbird (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I also prefer using just one name inline. But, if for instance both names are commonly used in English, let's allow both to be mentioned at the first occurrence only, and a single name in the rest of the text. In that case, don't separate them with a slash, but put one in brackets: rue Neuve (Nieuwstraat). Please let's not use things like "Boulevard Anspachlaan". Markussep ^Talk 16:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Things like Boulevard Anspachlaan are very common though... I'd think of it as the ideal solution. --Roofbird (talk) 16:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Alphabetical or majority-minority

For clarity, let me put this in another section: When an English title is used, should the order be French-Dutch or alphabetical (and historical, to those who care) Dutch-French? --Roofbird (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Existing consensus

Looks good as is. Oreo Priest ^talk 15:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

 Agree ;-) --Roofbird (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we should invite more people to join this discussion, at least WP:BELGIUM. Markussep ^Talk 16:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)