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Geo-coding Australian electoral divisions - controversial?

I'd be interested in reader's thoughts on whether or not it is reasonable to add geographic coordinates to Australian electoral divisions, so as to provide a link on the page enabling users to traverse to a map centred on the Division,and so that the division turns up on maps which have a Wikipedia layer, such as google.

Elsewhere, User:Orderinchaos has asserted that there is something unreliable about pointing to the location of a Division, and that doing so somehow "erodes the credibility of Wikipedia in the wider world". She/he cites the changing boundaries of Divisions over time; the fact that some are now historic.

There seems to be no such controversy in other countries: 211 UK Parliamentary constituencies have geographic coordinates, without apparent ill effect. Personally I'm finding it very difficult to understand the demerit of adding a link to a map showing the rough location of the Division. What do you think? --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Australian electoral divisions can cover a wide area (mostly in the rural and regional areas) and having Geo-coding would be inaccurate as it only shows a location not an area. Bidgee (talk) 10:53, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

There's also the rather significant fact that electoral redistributions occur on a regular basis and there can be significant movement of electoral boundaries, especially in regional areas. This makes any coordinate data suspect. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The same arguments apply to most areas. Cities grow. Lakes shrink. Are you suggesting that coding of anything other than a point source is sufficiently unreliable that we should not be doing it? Are we better just leaving users to guess these things? --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Cities, towns and lakes don't shrink as much as an Australian electoral division which covers a much larger area then a city in a rural and regional area and then in most capitals covers a suburb or three. An area/district is total different to a city or a lake. Bidgee (talk) 11:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

How would this work in effect? To use the most extreme example, how would the Division of Kalgoorlie (map) be handled? Moreover, this would need to be maintained as the boundaries of electoral divisions are reviewed every few years and can be tweaked a bit even when the changes aren't huge. Nick-D (talk) 11:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I must admit I don't see the same problems with geocoding electorates, local government areas etc. as some of the other contributors here and I can see some benefits. Will it be perfect, no, but I don't think that is not able to be overcome. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 11:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand why size is important. Maps can scale. Is Division of Kalgoorlie more useful with or without the coord I've added? One click takes you to a rough location. It does not seek to define the boundaries, it merely gives you the general area. Absent that coord, at best, you have to traverse to some other page, such as Kalgoorlie, Western Australia or Western Australia (which oddly does have a coordinate). It still makes no sense to me. What is so special about these Divisions that they behave differently to every other large area coorded in wikipedia? --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Geo-coords maybe ok with say Division of Solomon but not ok with Division of Lingiari as it does cover most of the Northern Territory but also covers the Islands way off the NW Coast of Australia. This map shows how big the current divisions are with some of them rather complex (Such as the Division of Farrer). Bidgee (talk) 12:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Boundary changes are more pronounced in Australia because of our low population outside of the capital cities and major regional centres, which is most of Australia. I don't see any real benefit in providing coordinate data without knowing the electorate boundaries. All that coordinate data is going to tell you is that particular point was within the electorate at the time the data was added. Maps are more useful. As an example here are the coordinates of the office of the member for Port Stephens:32°45.7922′S 151°44.4032′E Now, tell me which of the following coordinates are in the electorate:

1. 32°45.6722′S 151°44.7392′E
2. 32°45.566′S 151°45.0495′E
3. 32°45.4606′S 151°45.3417′E --AussieLegend (talk) 12:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Picking up on AussieLegend's point, I concur that coordinates are more useful when accompanied by boundary maps, such as we see in the Berwick-upon-Tweed (UK Parliament constituency) article. But for me, in the absence of a map, coordinates are helpful. (Meanwhile, I haven't a clue which of the example coords is in the division - that's the whole point of getting a reliable set of coordinates added, so that I don't have to endure such guessing games. Clearly part of the solution is to get maps on the division articles. Why, though, would we wait to add coordinates? One or other will come first, but I see no argument for decrying the good in the hope that the best will come along. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Having done a trawl of a half dozen or more Division articles ... some have maps, many do not. Of the maps, there are at least three different styles from three distinct authors. Would some concerted action to standardise maps and ensure every article has one be out of the question? If maps are provided, does the utility of a coordinate taking the user to the rough centre point of a division make any more sense to you? --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:52, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the fact that you were unable to determine which of the coordinates was in the electorate demonstrates the pointlessness of providing coordinate data without maps. For the record, all four of the coordinates provided were in a straight line with the endpoints less than 1.6km from each other. The description of the electorate at Electoral district of Port Stephens should have allowed you to determine, with reference to the electorate information (including a map) that's linked from within the article, that one of the coordinates provided is not in the electorate. It's not one of the endpoints by the way. Clearly the coordinates weren't as helpful as you indicate.

The big problem with providing maps is that most are copyrighted. As the boundaries are subject to periodic change, sometimes within a short period (Division of Newcastle changed before the last election and is likely to change again before the next!) the most practical solution is to provide a link to the official website, as that always contains the most current information. I concede this isn't done in a lot of electorates. Adding the links should be a priority over adding coordinate data as referring to the official website is normally the first step in determining appropriate coordinate information, which isn't always a simple thing to do. Of course, all this depends on the availability and willingness of editors to do so. --AussieLegend (talk) 04:41, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, as Frickeg and I have already discussed seperately, all of Adam Carr's images are public domain. He has individual electorate maps up. It's just uploading them one by one would take a while and nobody seems too interested in doing it. Timeshift (talk) 04:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't use those maps as some are not correct. For example, the Paterson and Newcastle maps yjay are labelled as 2004 maps actually show the boundaries established for the 2007 election. --AussieLegend (talk) 05:05, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Just to generally concur with the consensus, the geodata adds little if anything to the pages, and maps would be fantastic - if anyone has the time to upload all 150. Anyone know the copyright status of the AEC maps? Frickeg (talk) 04:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that the AEC maps are usable for copyright reasons, but I think the best solution would be to put together SVG maps instead (based on Adam Carr's images, perhaps). That way they can be adjusted easily enough when boundary changes do occur. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:41, 12 September 2009 (UTC).

I should make it clear to AussieLegend that I did not humour his guessing game enough to play it. His aha! conclusions are thus void.

It is a nonsense on stilts to suggest that here is an article on a geographic area (and sorry guys, that is what it is), which usefully supports a map or two of the boundaries of the area, a link to the canonical source of information about the entity, but that we would deny users the ability to click through to a commonplace map to enable them to relate their understanding of the area gleaned from the article to the features displayed on the map. We do not purport with a single coordinate to define the boundaries of the area. Which of our users, do you think, is stupid enough to think we would, and so misconstrue such a link?

Wikipedia has just slightly more than 500,000 coordinates. I give you my assurance that a good half of them relate to areas, some smaller than your districts, some larger, but all areas, having boundaries, which are as often as not subject to change. What on earth is so different about these areas that they be treated differently?

And to the other weak argument: we more than have the capacity to change the link after a boundary change. A maximum frequency of once every five years is not exactly challenging. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The point of what you frivolously call a guessing game was to demonstrate how useless coordinate data is without maps. That you decided not to take the example seriously does not negate the fact that the example was a valid demonstration. It does, however, demonstrate your fixed mindset on this issue. --AussieLegend (talk) 02:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

One point you failed to address is not how we change the coordinates (mind you - who is going to do it? the AusPol project is understaffed and overworked already) but which ones we should use. Simply using the last or most current ones is chronically misleading to readers if the major events in that seat relate to a different incarnation of it which may have been in quite a different location. Orderinchaos 08:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Divisions should have no geo-coding. Timeshift (talk) 04:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Verifiability is what matters here. Cities have an official, gazetted, nominal location, irrespective of their sprawl. Electoral divisions do not. You can verify these two facts, and many more, at the Gazetteer of Australia Online. The inevitable conclusion: if an areal geographic feature has a nominal position according to the Gazetteer of Australia, you may give that position; if it doesn't, you may not, per WP:OR. Hesperian 03:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course such areas should be geocoded, as should any other area or point which can be shown on a map. There is clearly consensus across Wikipedia to do this (over half-a-million instances; including electoral districts of one sort or another in many different countries), and a single local project cannot override such consensus. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure verifiability trumps the lot. If it has a gazetted position, I agree it should be geocoded. But if no reliable source gives a nominal point position for an areal feature, how are we to decide upon one. I'm absolutely certain that any attempt by us to arbitrarily boil an areal feature down to a point position suitable for geocoding, would have us running afoul of WP:OR. Hesperian 13:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Side note, since a couple of people have asked the question: the standard for geocoding areas to a nominal point is to give the centroid. Not that it especially matters for WP purposes, since calculating the centroid would still be OR, but just in case anybody was curious. --GenericBob (talk) 14:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, the centroid changes every few years with electorates - in fact some have changed as many as 20 times - which one do we use? Secondly, how would said centroid be calculated from the electoral maps provided by the various Electoral Commissions? They don't give latitude coordinates for points. Orderinchaos 08:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

No, they don't. If you want to calculate the centroid of an electorate, you need more precise information (which does exist, it just isn't as readily accessible or user-friendly), and you need to do a bit of calculation (unless your geo software is nice enough to do it for you). As I've already noted, this certainly wouldn't meet WP sourcing standards - I mentioned it because commenters above seemed to be confused by the idea of assigning a point identifier to an area.

While lack of sourcing is a reasonable objection to geocoding electorates here, changeability doesn't hold water. After all, the incumbent for the Division of Swan has changed (or changed parties) 19 times since the seat was created, but nobody seems to view that as a reason not to list them. It's not that hard to put an "as of $DATE" note next to such information and let readers form their own judgements. --GenericBob (talk) 14:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Just incase there might not be a lot of viewers over at the history wikiproject:

Please see this: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_history#Richmond_River_Massacres_and_Richmond_River_massacre and hopefully someone with more knowledge would be able to know what to do.Calaka (talk) 11:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Cut-and-paste move now fixed. Somno (talk) 05:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Nick-D (talk) 05:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Psephos and electoral results

Does anybody know where the root source of the stats can be found? It is being questioned at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Brian Booth/archive1 for being reliable and it would be easier to simply know where the historical electoral results are kept on paper or elsewhere. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 00:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Psephos is run by retired long-time Wikipedia contributor Adam Carr. Why don't you drop him an email? Hesperian 01:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I know that these are available in past parliamentary handbooks; I've been through some of the ones at the National Library to find designations for some of the micro-parties that Psephos omits. So my guess is that's where they're from. Frickeg (talk) 02:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Most are from Parliamentary Handbooks and the rest are from the publication series "Election statistics" and its predecessors (see eg [1], [2]), which is calculated to booth level back to 1984, and "subdivision" level prior to that time. 1993 onwards are available on CD-ROM free from the AEC, though 2004 and 2007 are basically the website on CD and not useful for bulk analytical purposes. Orderinchaos 08:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Help please

Help requested at City of Ryde - anon editor causing trouble. I've reached 3RR. Frickeg (talk) 04:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I think there's a clause in WP:BLP which says 3RR doesn't apply when you're reverting BLP crap like labelling someone a "Traitor". Rolled back and semi-protected for a week. Hesperian 04:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Adelaide get-together with GLAM sector; Wikimedians invited

Hi all,

Jessica Coates and Brian Fitzgerald from Creative Commons Australia will be in Adelaide for an Opening Australia's Archives workshop event this Thursday (ie. 17 September). I'm going to have drinks and dinner with them in the evening after their event is finished, along with other members of the GLAM sector. If any Wikimedians from Adelaide would be interested in coming, please feel free to join me - it will certainly be an interesting series of discussions and more opinions are always good.

Pru and myself were planning on organising a meetup for when they were here, but unfortunately we only got the notice that they were coming late last week, and it was far too late to organise anything of substance. My apologies for the lack of notice with regards to this, and hopefully we can organise a meetup-proper for sometime in October.

Details

SA meetup with Jessica and Brian from Creative Commons Australia

Date: Thursday 17 September 2009

TIme: 5.30pm for drinks; stay on for a meal after 6pm

Place: Belgian Beer Cafe, 265 - 276 Ebenezer Place, Rundle Street, Adelaide

If you're interesting in coming along, please email me to let me know (dbwiki@gmail.com).

Regards,
Daniel (talk) 02:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Given the obscenely short notice, the turn-out was fantastic; Jessica in particular was most impressed. A lot of good came out of it :) Thanks to everyone who came. Daniel (talk) 20:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

City of Brimbank

Appears to be a BLP trainwreck waiting to happen. Can someone look into this? (I would but I am not well atm.) Orderinchaos 08:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The LGA article looks okay at the moment (although there has been quite a bit of to-and-fro in recent days), but Brimbank Council dismissal, 2009 is another page that probably needs to be watched closely. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 21:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC).

David Tweed

It looks like there is a POV pusher on the David Tweed article. If any Australians would like to review the changes (see here) and note if there are any badly POV bits, that would be great. However, I reverted as I cannot see what they are specifically objecting to. The editor in question made his wholesale changes some time ago (made changes like altering the section title "Investment history" to "Investment strategy"), and is trying to revert back to them without any discussion. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 21:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Sydney

[3] Yes it was nominated for deletion. I reverted this edit as vandalism... Is that correct? Aaroncrick (talk) 05:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

User indefinitely blocked [4] -- Mattinbgn\^talk 05:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The largest island of all Torres Strait Islands

Hi, there's two articles about Torres Strait Islands which say

• Prince of Wales Island (Queensland): With an area of 204.6 km², Prince of Wales Island is the largest of the Torres Strait Islands.
• Moa_Island,_Queensland: This island is one of the Torres Strait Islands and is the largest of all Torres Strait Islands.

I guess there's some confussion there as the largest island is defenetly only one of them. Abarinov (talk) 10:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

This gives Prince of Wales as the largest. --Stephen 00:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Moa is the largest island in its group, and may have the largest population as a whole, but PoW Island is the largest in terms of area. I've updated the article to reflect this. Of a little more concern to me is that some of the sentences in the article are very similar to those found on this page: http://www.slq.qld.gov.au/info/ind/footprints/community/missions/tsi/i-m#moa], could be a copyvio, but which way? The possibly infringing text has been a part of the article since its creation in 2006, whereas the SLQ page only has a 2009 copyright on it. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 02:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC).

Stimulus package?

This school has been brought to you by the Rudd Government ...

I went looking for an article on the stimulus package and could not find one. The Americans have an article and so do the European Union but we seem to have been overlooked (except for a small mention here.)

Do we need an article? It has been one of the biggest news items of the year. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 10:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

It would be justified; it's worth something like $70 billion and has received acres of media coverage. Nick-D (talk) 11:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

We also have a mention at Late 2000s recession in Australasia#First Commonwealth Government stimulus package --Stephen 02:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Bass Strait Triangle

I'm not convinced that this is a subject deserving an article, although the term does appear to have been used in one book.--Grahame (talk) 01:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Yuk - that is like suggesting we all go back to those old arguments about keeping in popular culture sections in scientific articles - I would suggest it is better to keep it separate from the main article - and it has been mentione in more than just one book as a mention - also because there are nautical conservation zones that use the terms and names of features around Tasmania including bass strait - I would argue strongly to keep the article separate, rather than cluttering other articles with the content of the article being referred to SatuSuro 21:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/September 2009 attacks on Indians in Australia

another troll article YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 05:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Good ol Times of India mistakenly thinks Epping is in eastern Melbourne YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 05:26, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Dennis Ferguson

Well, he's moved back into Wikipedia. I've recreated the Dennis Ferguson article, which has previously been created and deleted many times before. Despite what we may think of Ferguson, I think I'm on solid ground to say that he's notable and an article is warranted. Previous articles, over many years, have been moved away from the 'Dennis Ferguson' title, as it was said that other articles about persons by the same name were about to be created. After many years, those other articles never materialised. Therefore, this article should not be moved, until sometime in the future when an article about a different Dennis Ferguson materialises, and a disambiguation page can be created.

On previous times when this article was created, those articles descended into chaos after they got filled with uncited and legally libellous claims about Ferguson, and slanderous opinion. I think a close eye needs to be kept on this article to stop the same thing occurring. It is currently fully referenced, and I propose that any unreferenced material that gets inserted into the article should be reverted. --Lester 06:59, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on it, as per before. It will be messy, though, as it will be heavily targeted over time. It is good to see that the recreation was done well. - Bilby (talk) 07:22, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Template:Australia state or territory up for deletion

{{Australia state or territory}} is up for deletion. Bidgee (talk) 08:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Whatever happened to starting a centralised discussion about Infobox settlement? --AussieLegend (talk) 11:43, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Out with the dust it seems. I'm getting rather sick of the deletion listings going behind our back! The only way I knew about the deletion was when I was undoing an edit on the NSW article! Bidgee (talk) 11:53, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

No doubt the cries of CANVASS will be heard, but you wont hear a mention of the organised campaign at IS to get rid of these templates. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 12:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

It was lovely of them to consult with us or at least let us know that this nomination was going to be made, especially after the fiasco last time! Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 13:01, 23 September 2009 (UTC).

I want access to his source there's what a couple of thousand Australian service personnel and Police officers in Timor Leste and the Solomons that could come home given the nominator is able to assert that there is no more provinces/states/regions envisaged, gee it could solve a lot the tension in these countries and possibly many others. Maybe we should raising him and his source a pedestal rather then questioning his nominations. Gnangarra 13:30, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Melbourne

A couple of editors are trying to push Infobox settlement into Melbourne. Need I say more. --AussieLegend (talk) 15:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

There's a discussion at Talk:Melbourne#IAP. --AussieLegend (talk) 16:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Template:Australia state or territory

Hi all,
I first edit the Australian state/territory infobox on 25/09 (that is, today) thinking that, in the same way for the many others I edited (France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Austria) my changes were going to be uncontroversial. It was then that an user reverted the template to the previous version, pointing me to this page for further discussion. I can only say in my defence that I didn't think a simple template could engender such heated debate…

you can see my revision of the template as it would normally appear here.

My reasons to prefer the new revision:

• it's undoubtedly easier to edit
• allows for more precision when dealing with time zones, especially useful considering their variety within Australia (some states use DST, some don't, etc...)
• automatically generates figures for density, based on area and population data
• plainly states, just below the name, whether the subdivision is a state or a territory
• nicknames and mottos are somewhat readable again
• automatically fills the ISO 3166-2 and the "website" field using the postal abbreviation
• this new layout looks better than the old one ;)

--93.45.59.26 (talk) 17:38, 25 September 2009 (UTC)