Talk:India/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 16:55, 12 April 2004

Aryan invasion theory and Hindustan

The India page needs to be clipped. It's 31 KB in length, almost the safe upper limit suggested by wikipedia for editing.(32KB) Nichalp 19:15, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)
Will someone tell that Lord Surya to stop playing around with the Aryan invasion theory?

Nichalp: You know, wikipedia is set up so that you can address me directly. I would, indeed, maintain that it is you who are playing, since presenting only one side of a contentious issue like the Aryan Invasion Theory is blatantly biased. Also, in your careless edits, you left it looking like "there are two views" 1) AIT/AMT and .... nothing. So, I would ask you reconsider your stance on the nature of my edit of the Aryan Invasion Theory, for as the name implies, it is not fact, and thus all relevant points of view should be represented.

I did not write about the Aryan invasion theory nor do I CLAIM to be an expert on it. Now you may have done your PHD on it, it's not my problem, you are free to contribute. I am not biased for/against the AIT. If you noticed, the previous edit that I made did not omit the 2 theories, only shortened it. (The previous edit was an error, I admit). However, the history on the main page is supposed to be BRIEF, get it? Your articles on the Aryan/non Aryan theories are certainly NOT brief. In a 5000 yr Indian history, the AT, need not be so elaborate, especially since it already has a pretty detailed article. Create an AMT article for the other theory. Anyone who is interested in reading it, may click the link(s). Its their option. I don't know why you have to get so agitated on the AIT/AMT, insisting a long para needs to be there on the FRONT page. Wikipedia has a very good way of adding new pages. Use this: [[]] to add your knowledge instead of it being on the front page. Nichalp 20:04, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

"There are two prevailing theories about the early history of India. One is the commonly accepted Aryan Migration/Invasion Theory, first propounded by the German historian Max Müller in the 19^th century . It avers that around 1500 BC, the influx of Aryan tribes from the northwest of India and to some extent their merger with the earlier inhabitants resulted in the classical Vedic culture. see Aryan Invasion Theory."

Didn't leave out the other theory? I think you may have forgotten this. Secondly, no need to be condescending about my PHD. My most recent edit added two lines or so to describe the other theory that your 'culling' left out. I was not debating AIT/AMT either, I was presenting both points. Note that I have not discussed it and I am quite aware of how to use Wikipedia. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:02, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

As for the name Hindustan, I don't know whether you have lived in or been to India, but it is commonly used. Hindustani is the term used for a mix of cultures that was achieved primariy in North India between Mughals(Muslims) and the local Hindu populace, especially in music, but also in arts like literature and painting (a blended language that is commonly spoken in India, mixing Hindi and Urdu, is called Hindustani). The song, "Sare Jahaan Se Acchaa, Hindustan Humara; Bulbulein hain hum iski, gulsitan humara" (Better than all other lands, our Hindustaan; we are singing birds here, in this our rose garden" is one of the most popular patriotic songs that Indians sing today. It's written largely in Urdu. Thus, I think you should avoid being so condescending in regards to my edits and instead reevaluate why I made them, while, by the way, maintaining the Wiki sanctity of NPOV. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:15, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

I am an Indian citizen and have lived all my life in the wonderful city of Bombay. Your lord highness does not take the opportunity to check my user page. You seem to take me to be a fool explaining what Hindustani means. You also fail to research more on my past edits. I NEVER, have edited anything regarding the term Hindustani. I don't know why you are telling me the difference. I did not delete the word Hindustan. Think, do you seriously feel that Iqbal's lines needs to be on the main page? In my latest edit, I don't think I deleted your continuity theory, did I? So how can you blatantly accuse me of a POV?Nichalp 20:04, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

" India was also known as Hindustan (the land of the Hindus) till its independence."

This was how the page looked after your revision as of 19:26, April 6th, 2004. I was not arguing with your taking out the Iqbal, which is why I never put it back in. I simply corrected what you left there. It reads basically that India stopped being referred to as Hindustan in 1947 whereas it has continued to be a popular and well-established name. Hence, I corrected you. Try to look back to the edits I was discussing. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

I'll add that I don't mind your streamlining of the page at the expense of extra material, but my edits were done in order to rectify gross errors that were left on the page in the wake of your culling. Slim is good, wrong is bad.--LordSuryaofShropshire 20:19, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

Well if you want really are willing to streamline the page, you would agree that all your superflous matter would be better suited in a sub article. (Plus in your previous edit you have added more data.) I'm sure the average reader is not interested in what Iqbal said on the main page of India.Add it in Hindustan, Iqbal etc. Culling is reqd to keep the page size within limits. Gross errors you say...? Nichalp 20:04, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

See above for why you're off-base. Once again, I have consistently been NPOV and simply corrected your edits when they violate NPOV or blatantly misrepresent information. I responded to you only when you condescended to obliquely reference my playing around with AIT. Lastly, I have lived in Mumbai too, (went to Cathedral), which is why it surprises me that you could have left such a woefully inaccurate statement about Hindustan, in your own carefully supervised edit, go. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:03, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

I think that you need to get back to your roots. Take a walk down the streets in India. 'NOBODY refers to India as Hindustan. Watch a cricket match, watch the news, or any Indian soap. Hindustan isn't referred to anymore. After India's independence India became a secular republic. This is why the term Hindustan was dropped. (I'm sure its mentioned in the ICSE syllabus.) As far as I know, my statement on Hindustan is accurate. I don't know who you know, still refers to India as Hindustan.

I was editing the length of the page, I admitted yesterday that I accidently omitted the line. You overlooked this point. But you have added unnecessary material to the para. These are only theories, there is no need to give an 6 line intro about it.

I did not drag Iqbal and Hindustani into this, you did.

You contributed a lot to the AIT, that's why I wryly mentioned the PHD.

I left the edits as it is on the 6th, presenting both facts.

I said you were playing around because you bloated the page, not for corrections.

PS I am interested why you are so encaptivated with the Aryan theories?

Nichalp 20:38, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

Nichalp: you know something? You started off this whole 'dialogue' with backhanded comments and an attitude that you know everything. First off, I've already quoted the section where you obviously leave out both views of the AIT. YOu just put ait/amt, not the continuity. If bloating means one sentence, then your idea of how much material is warranted on this page is lopsided.

Secondly, plenty of people I know in Mumbai, in Kolkata, call India Hindustan. When I was in Cathedral, we sang "sare jahaan se accha" whenever a patriotic event was in the offing. Politicians and musicians, students and the general North Indian populace all use the term Hindustani. I'm quite in touch with my roots, thank you very much. But my head isn't stuck in the mud, so my purview isn't relegated to a small stratum. Lastly, I did bring in Iqbal to make a point that Hindustan is a term still commonly used in reference to India. I'm quite aware we're secular, but Muslims and Hindus alike still utilize the term. Ever heard of JAI HIND? Everyone says that in India! Maybe you and your little coterie of Mumbai friends don't, but most Indians do. Lastly, your being smart-alecky about the AIT is only indicative of small-mindedness. I am not on either side mainly because I have strong opinions for both. I want a balanced page on my country to represent both views. You failed to do that, so I stepped in. This has gone on long enough Nichalp. I really couldn't care enough about your parochialism to answer any more of your posts. Jai Hind! --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:37, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

AFAIK, the term Hindustan is not that much used except that it is used by Advani and few others. Moreover, it is widely used in the context of Hindu-Muslim sentiments. I have also noticed that the term is bit popular among NRIs. --Rrjanbiah 06:02, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I too think the same. Hindustan is used more in the arts - songs, literature, films, etc. And NRIs come to view India mainly from Indian films, so that could explain something. Also the Pakistani media and govt. refers to India as Hindustan I guess. Jay 09:46, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You know, I must admit that, unfortunately, both sides of this argument are based on hollow anecdotes. I claim that I know plenty of people who use Hindustan, and I also bring up the point of the common term "Jai Hind". I have lived in India, visit there, and have friends from all over the country, so my perspective is not NRI, which is a cheap way of dodging a question. You, on the other hand, claim that only politicians use it and that as a term for the Indian nation its use is rather more of an artistic appelation. Who's right? Do you have polls? Do I? No. I think more research is neccessary before I denounce your viewpoint or before you denounce mine. Both are currently without evidence. Let us, then, gather some before continuing with vaccuous pronouncements of certainty. --LordSuryaofShropshire 13:18, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

"Hindustan" in Government-Supported and Private Sector Industries

http://www.hindustancopper.com/ (Hindustan Copper, which, by the way, "Public Sector Enterprise under the Ministry of Mines, Government of India.")

http://www.hindcables.com/ (Hindustan Cables Ltd; Gov't of India undertaking)

http://www.hindpaper.com/ (A Government of India undertaking)

http://www.hindustan-motors.com (Hindustan Motors, which, by the way, produces a popular car called the Hindustan Ambassador)

http://hindustanpetroleum.com/ (HP Hindustan Petroleum)

http://www.hindustancollege.com/ (Hindustan College ring of South India)

http://www.hindustantimes.com/ (Hindustan Times; well-known newspaper)

http://www.hindustan.org/ (Indian community website)

http://www.hp.co.in/ (Hindustan Platinum)

http://www.hindbook.com/ (Hindustan Book Agency)

http://www.pencilsindia.com/ (Hindustan Pencils Ltd.)

http://www.hindustanglassbeads.com (Hindustan Glass Beads Co.)

http://www.hal-india.com/ (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.)

http://www.hccindia.com/ (Hindustan Construction Company)

http://www.hindpaper.com/ (Hindustan Paper Co. Ltd.)

http://www.hindustanradiators.com/ (Hindustan Radiators)

So, as we can see, Hindustan is far from being erased from the public sentiment. Even colleges in Chennai are called Hindustan, and government supported companies created post-Independence are called and have retained the name Hindustan. It is ingrained in the popular consciosness. I'm not going to list all the companies named after Jai Hind, or talk about Jai Hind College, or talk about the fact that Jai Hind is just as popular in India as God Bless America is in the States as a patriotic slogan, if not more so. --LordSuryaofShropshire 13:41, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)
Oh yes... and one more point... the Army of India's slogan and its most popular signoff for official missives and notices is "JAI HIND." It is the rally cry that jawaans use all the time. --LordSuryaofShropshire 13:49, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

LordSurya, you forgot about HCL (Hindustan Computers Ltd.). By the way I've just added most of the above names in List of Indian companies; too many red links though. Jay 06:18, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh cool... I didn't even know we had one of these in the offing... I'll sloooooowwly ;) start work on the nasty-looking red... we can add some household names like Godrej.... Tata is obviously uber-important, as well as people like Birla.... --LordSuryaofShropshire 15:43, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Hindustan in Popular Sentiment

I've got six words: "Sare Jahaan se accha, Hindustan humara" Who's going to argue that this isn't one of India's most popular national/patriotic songs ever, especially based on the Ravi Shankar melodic line? It's sung in schools, in functions, everywhere. 'Nuff said. --LordSuryaofShropshire 13:47, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

I REPEAT, Hindustan is not used to refer as India as a specific country. If you have Pakistani leanings, then that's not my problem. Any company is free to use any term as their title. It does not mean that its a substitution for the word India. Hindustan may be in the back of people's minds but it is never used as a DIRECT substitution for India, which is what you cannot understand. That's what I am trying to explain to you. What is your problem with the sentence "India was also known as Hindustan till independence?"

Jai Hind was coinded before independence. Unless you are a hippocrate like Bal Thackeray who insists on changing names, it would be foolhardy to change Jai Hind to something else.

Similarly sare jahaan se accha would be obtuse to change it to sare jahaan se bharat . Patriotic songs of past eras will never change lyrics, and you justifying them as a means of substituting it for Hindustan/India is ludicrous.

You and your clique of cronies are living in a time warp, going back to the 1940's where you believe that every one on the road out here uses phrases such as "I am leaving Hindustan to go to England" OR "Hindustan is Shining".

Have you travelled to places in India other than Bombay or Calcutta to justify the Hindustan angle all over India?

I said I wasn't an expert in Aryan theroies in my first reply, you overlooked past replies.

I REPEAT AGAIN, you brought the Hindustan(i) angle.

And why do you keep mentioning your school?

Nichalp 19:36, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)
Nichalp: You are completely out of line. I have been in many places all over India. Your excuses and rebuttals simply smack of denial. I mention my school because your "pakistan" comments are rife with 1) bigotry, 2( self-justifying indianess. I have already proven my point. Hindustan is in wide use all over the country, by people in the south and north, no one's stopped using it, and it is used in reference to all of India, otherwise South Indians wouldn't use it. Sare Jahaan se accha, Hindustan humara. If it weren't appropriate, people would have stopped singing it. Jai Hind. If it weren't appropriate, people would have stopped saying it. Your idea that somehow because it was coined before Independence and thus it hasn't changed is wrongheaded and nonsensical. If people had a problem with it they would have dropped it. It's in use, and you're turning rude and launching ad hominem remarks is merely indicative of your own insecurities, nothing to do with me. I don't know what your problem is, but Jai Hind! and I'm done talking with you because you've crossed lines of civil and intelligent discussion, ignoring salient points and pandering to what is obviously a huge issue on your own part. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:10, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

Out of line?, I need not waste my energy on the issue of Hindustan as you fail to comprehend the reality that is existant today. Comprendes tu, s'il te plaît! I have supported the crux of my point on Hindustan in my previous reply. You corroborate your views with tangential illustrations that are really obscure ... perhaps you'll find a better word for obscure. I have nothing against Hindustan, mind you, if you feel that I am holding something against Hindustan, your sadly mistaken. I wish you remain focused on the point instead of dragging South Indians and Jai Hind et.al. into the picture. It's the Pakistani media that's fuelling the Pakistan-Hindustan idealogy these days mind you. I haven't given excuses nor I am insecure. I have given apt examples to suppport my point, whereas you are the one groping about in the darkness searching for vague examples. Mentioning what you did in school is unwarranted in this context. Granted, people still recite "sare jahaan .." because it is a patriotic song, I think you misuderstand my point, and feel that I am saying that the term Hindustan is erased from public memory. How untrue! (See my previous reply on Hindustan). Of course I am aware that the term Hindustan will never be erased just like Peking, Siam etc. Take any school text book (except the history book) and search for the phrase Hindustan; let me know the results if you wish. Next, Its obvious that Hindustan is used for the whole of India, I don't recall me ever saying that it needs to be referred to as a part of India, so thats another point of yours being off key. Also take a look at 2 replies above by rrjanbiah & jay about the term Hindustan decaying. If you don't believe me, at least take a closer look at their opinion.

PS. Before you vanish with a huff as you threaten to, please enlighten me as to what your call sign means. Nichalp 16:23, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Nichalp: il n'ya pas du quois a mois. You are fond of high pronouncements but you'll note that I've listed plenty of companies and instances of governent sponsored use of the word Hindustan to describe the national interest. As it is, Hindustan is not used to refer as India as a specific country (your quotation) is off-base. Before you accuse me of groping in the dark, I suggest you look at my citations. Look, there's no point in further ratiocinating about the possible atavism of this term and its gradual atrophy since that is not supported by popular sentiment and its current use. I know plenty of Indians in India and abroad who will frequently make reference to the nation state as Hindustan. Your 'Pakistan' conspiracy theories are without subtantiation. I hope that, perhaps, this issue may be left an issue and not devolve into character attacks such as your unfortunately bigoted remarks about Pakistan and Advani.
My name means I am एक विदेशवाला हिन्दुस्तानि | --LordSuryaofShropshire 00:50, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)

Your opinion on Hindustani may be right. But IMHO, the term Hindustan is used in two contexts: 1. brandname, 2.to refer to India. As I said earlier, the second meaning is not at all or less used. The second meaning won't come into your mind, unless you read this type of historical articles or just heard __someone__'s speech. The first meaning is bit widely used. Yesterday, I talked to a guy from Hindustan College; I asked the reason behind the college name, he said 'it's just a name; again I asked whether it has any link to Hindustan==India, he immediately said "are you mad?". I know a tiny hardware shop named Hindustan workshop--which is run by a muslim guy. My *biased* opinion here is: if someone refers India as Hindustan, he must be a perverted politician or an absolute ignorant. This is my final word on the topic. You may continue your arguments with Nicholas or do some research. EOD. --Rrjanbiah 04:33, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So fine, it's used as a brandname for India. It's still referring to the country. Asking the opinion of one student from a college means nothing. Are you now being bigoted against Muslims? Also, your value judgement on people referring to India as Hindustan as being politicians or absolute(ly) ignorant are irrelevant to the discussion. People, whether stupid or not, still use the term. This includes movies, brandnames, and casual discussions by many apparently stupid Indians, whether living in India or abroad. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:55, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)

Hindustan in Popular Sentiment: Part Deux

लन्दन देखा, पैरिस देखा
लन्दन देखा, पैरिस देखा और देखा जापान मैकल देखा, एल्विस देखा सब देखा मेरी जान सारे जग में कहीं नहीं है
दूसरा हिन्दुस्तान, दूसरा हिन्दुस्तान, दूसरा हिन्दुस्तान

Four Major Cities

I replaced the four major cities, which someone cut out. They are not only the four largest but also four most well-known capital centers of India and if we're mentioning nations that surround India we should surely mention its major metropolises in the same breath. Also, there's no chart or section on the page which properly highlights them, so culling for size might be done differently. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:24, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

Largest India city is mentioned in the table. So is the capital of India. For other cities, please refer to the demographics sub heading. Agreed that it's not going to save much space, but it pushes relevent data from immediate focus such as the table. Plus I'm not done with the reduction of file size. I hope you do delete it and add it under demographics. {Nichalp}

My question is about four cities, not the largest. It is acknowledged that India's four urban hubs are Mumbai, Dilli, Chennai and Kolkata, so they should be mentioned. To talk about them is more important than mentioning every single neighboring body of water and nation external to India. --LordSuryaofShropshire 18:24, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Good edit.--LordSuryaofShropshire 21:14, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)

Can somebody write about Economic reforms in India ?? -kesava

Like the rest of South Asia, India has stagnated economically since independence in 1947, while countries in nearby South-East Asia and East Asia have made remarkable strides in wealth creation.

Actually, Sri Lanka started privatizing, and opening up it's market, in the late 1970s, and India was not far behind. Now, even the communist parties talk about how to make this transition well (though they're still opposed, in principle).

and India was not far behind.

Yeah, just 23 years. -- Gyan

But look at the impact the economic reforms made in the past 12 years(1991-2003) !! Living standards of the Bourgeois(or the Indian middle class) have been improving consistently. Education is receiving more attention. Chief ministers of the states are on a constant mission to attract more and more FDIs to their respective states. India (especially states like Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra and Gujarat) is undergoing a silent socio-economic revolution. -- kesava

Is the Indus Valley cradle of the ancient civilization mentioned in the article now part of Pakistan?

It comprised a large area, falling in present day India, Pakistan and even (IIRC) Afghanisthan. -- Arvindn

India used to be a great colonial master herself, the days of the Mauryas.

I'm not familiar with this: Who was a colony of whom?

In the days when mighty empires like the Mauryas, Guptas, etc. ruled present-day India, they colonised other smaller kingdoms not only in but also outside present-day India. Many of those empires included vast regions of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Myanmar, etc. The above are examples of North Indian empires. The Chola Empire (South Indian) colonised territories as far away as the delta of the Ganges and the Malacca Strait in SE Asia.

This took place between 500 B.C to 500 A.D. Later India was invaded by Mughals starting ~1000 A.D and the British starting ~1600 A.D.

Since Transnational Issues has grown out of its dark CIA past, it should be put on its own page. However, I think Transnational Issues of India is kind of cumbersome. Any ideas? - Eean

I hear the part about nonviolent indepence is incorrect. Anyone know anything about this?

The independence movement was largely, though not completely non-violent. (Most of the violence was directed against the Indians.) However, independence was mostly the result of the fact that after WW2 Britain was so weakened that the colony became more of a liability than a prize.

"Netaji" Subash Chandra Bose formed the Indian National Army to fight the British with the help of the Japanese & Germans (without much success except in creating more awareness about the need of independence) in direct contrast to Mohandas Gandhi's non-violent methods.

"The Republic of India, located in the south of Asia, is the second most populated country in the word and is the world's largest democracy with about a billion people and a thousand plus languages."

Whoa, a thousand languages is a *lot*.

I see a page here http://www.sanyal.com/india/indlang.html "325 recognized Indian languages" and here http://www.abhishek.mybravenet.com/languages%20of%20india.htm "India's schools teach 58 different languages. The nation has newspapers in 87 languages, radio programmes in 71, and films in 15."

Can anybody help sort this out?

Hmm. From http://www.censusindia.net/results/eci11_page3.html

It may be important to note that innumerable mother tongues are returned at every census. For example, in 1961 and 1971 censuses the total number of mother tongues returned was around 3,000, in 1981 around 7,000 and in 1991, these were more than 10,000. These vast raw returns need to be identified and classified in terms of actual languages and dialects to present a meaningful linguistic picture of the country. This operations of linguistic identification of raw mother tongue returns or linguistic rationalization and classification, produced a list of rationalized mother tongues in each census: For example, the list produced in 1961 had 1652 mother tongue names, in 1991 it was 1576. These 1576 rationalized mother tongues were further classified following the usual linguistic methods and grouped under appropriate languages. The total number of languages so arrived at was 114 in 1991 Census.

Re India/Religions:

Does anybody remember anything about the (legendary?) early Christian communities in India? (Saint Thomas ???)

What's legendary? There's the current Mar Thoma church and the Malankara (which I believe are closely related but not the same). Try a google search on the above two names. (ps, it helps to put a date on a query. And it looks good to sign it.) Imc 22:10, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Could someone please add the official long name (likely "Republic of India/Bharat") in Hindi (in the Devanagari script) to the table or alternatively post it here? Thanks. -Scipius 19:44 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)

Done. With one problem. In the ending of the Devanagari name "ज&#2351", the vertical line in the letter &#2332 sdoes not exist. Instead the part to the left is joined to the last letter. But, I can't find the Unicode combination to represent this "half" letter of &#2332 -- Gyan

Thanks a bunch, Gyan. I unfortunately can't help you with your problem, as I can't even get the Devanagari fonts to display (it's all ???? in my browser, Mozilla 1.2.1). Any tips on how to get Westerners to see the correct fonts? Changing the browser's character coding didn't appear to work. Also, could you please add a romanisation of the name below the Hindi name, conform e.g China or Russia? -Scipius 21:49 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

I added the transliteration. Note that one letter in the second word doesn't have an equivalent sound in the Roman alphabet. So, it remains an approximation. I tested the page on 3 browsers on my computer: Opera 7,Netscape 7,IE 6 and it worked fine in all. Any font with a Unicode character set should do. Gyan 02:12 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to work in Mozilla for some reason, even though Chinese and Japanese unicode characters do show properly on other Wikipedia pages. Mkweise 02:58 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

Displays fine for me in Mozilla 1.2 / Win2k. It's going to depend on the fonts you have installed; the Indian scripts are much less likely to be installed by default. --Brion 03:58 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

OK, I installed a font from http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts.html#devanagari and now I see it. Previously I just had the XDVNG package, which is what most Sanskrit web sites use, but apparently it doesn't support unicode. I wonder whether I should add the font link to the page somewhere? Mkweise

In Unicode (which is what we use in Wikipedia, I presume) the Devanagari group has no separate characters for half-ज, etc. ज् must be converted to half-ज by the software that renders the text, e.g. browser.

Similarly I thought the spelling हिन्दी used in http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3AMaintenance (or for that matter http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3AMaintenance which cannot be accessed nowadays (by me) was wrong but the Unicode document says even this twiddling of ह and ि must be done by the software that renders.

Hence I have added ् (halanth, called VIRAM in Unicode) to the official name in India.

The boundary as shown in the map is not recognised by the Govt. of India and many Indians in general. The region in Kashmir under Pakistani control is viewed as part of India. The map shows the region under Chinese occupation. So what's wrong in having text telling the there is some region shown as part of Pakistan in the map but claimed by India?

Nothing. Checking the history log, it appears that the text that previously stated this got lost in the process of completing the template. Sorry about that, though the text was a bit too long as it was. I've added a new text below it, I hope it is to your satisfaction. -Scipius 21:49 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

And currently the Deputy PM (Prime Minister) does a lot of the job the PM is supposed to do (like signing treaties). So I think we should make a mention of him. -- Paddu 04:01 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

If so, then mention this particular function of the Deputy PM, briefly, in the Politics section of the page. The table is used for both the head of state and the head of government (or for a union of the two). I'm assuming that the Deputy PM is not in fact the head of government, though if his function is more considerable than in most political systems it should certainly be mentioned. -Scipius 21:49 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

I should mention that this isn't a formal transfer of duties. It just happens to be the current cabinet's arrangement. That's all. I don't think, as such, it has any place in a NPOV encyclopedic article. Gyan 02:12 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)

Official Languages

Isn't English an official language of India? It is not mentioned: Hindi is and also "14 nat. languages". English is not a native language but is official, isn't it? Marco NevesMarco Neves

In regards to the population of Muslims, I think it is questionable whether or not India has the second largest population of Muslims. No definitive figures exist in regards to the Islamic populations of India and Pakistan, but it is generally agreed that the two have similar numbers. Therefore, I think it is incorrect to definitively claim that India has the second largest population of Muslims. It might, but it might not.

DigiBullet 20:38, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

India today (According to the CIA factbook) has the third largest Muslim population in the worlld (As the article correctly claims now). I am not sure no definitive figures exist is a right claim. These governments do have a census system, and at least in India, one's religion is documented. So, there is a definite system in place to gather the statistics.Chancemill 08:36, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

&lt table &gt tag

can someone please remove the tag present on the top of the page near the flag?

Kashmir in the map

I don't think there's anything wrong with "originally of India", meaning allocated to India in the partition. -- Arvindn 12:33, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I personally would agree with you, but Pakistan claims that the acession to INdia by HAri Singh was forged and/or illegal, and that Kashmir was thus never legally part of India. Thus saying it was originally part of india inherently invalidates another POV. --Mishac 12:37, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

original could refer to pre-partition. current edit is fine though. --Rj 15:34, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

Mostly nonviolent resistance to British colonialism under Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru led to independence in 1947...

It would be good if the names of the other stalwarts like Patel, Tilak, Lajpat Rai & Rajaji were added here Bhanu 07:01, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

where did the word 'bharat' come from?

see List of country name etymologies. Jay 18:32, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As far as my knowledge into legends go, it is the second mention in the article (the-son-of-Dushyanta) that seems to be correct. Chancemill 15:10, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

hey thanks folks

shouldnt some mentioned be made of the many dead people during partition, and the migrations cross border between pakistan and india?

Definitely ! Although much of it can be covered in the article Partition of India. Jay 14:36, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thank you to the Wikipedia community for this article and for the open-use policy. I've used this particular article on my daughter's Web site [1]. (If I haven't given proper credit or have made incorrect use, I would appreciate being informed.) - Steve Smith

Thank you Steve for stopping by. I went to the link you mentioned. Looks good and proper to me :) Jay 14:36, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hindustan

Hindustan is a commonly used term in India. Since the government is secular, Hindustan is not an official title, like Bharat. However, "Sare Jahaan Se Accha, Hindustan Humara" and slogans like "Jai Hind" are far from having been dropped, and in fact are very much alive. In the interests of NPOV, we should not act as if this is not the case. Hindustan and Jai Hind have much more to do with the nation-state than land of Hindus. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:39, Mar 26, 2004 (UTC)

Map bait

The following line has been a long-time favourite of anon users, intentional troublemakers and righteous contributors :

"Map shows parts of Kashmir claimed by India, but controlled by Pakistan, as part of Pakistan."

It gets changed to :

"Map does not show parts of Kashmir belonging to India, but controlled by Pakistan, as part of Pakistan."

And then gets changed back and so on. Can there be a different way to word it so that it doesn't appear to be a bait. Something that keeps everyone happy. Jay 14:11, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What happened to the map? I don't see it on the page. Moncrief 06:05, Apr 2, 2004 (UTC)~

What about this: " The two sections of Kashmir that lie divided between India and Pakistan are shown as being part of the country that controls the region in question." or some such permutation... I know it's wordy, but you get the idea. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:45, Apr 2, 2004 (UTC)

How about: "Border with Pakistan shown based on Line of Control." Arvindn 03:18, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Much Better idea, Arvind. Nice. --LordSuryaofShropshire 03:46, Apr 3, 2004 (UTC)

Islamic vis a vis Mughal

Hi, - - Your contributions to India related pages are very valuable and positive. However, I wish you would follow convention and bring sensitive issues to the talk page first before editing the main page. Thanks. KRS 11:51, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC) - P.S. Re your edit in India- Islamic/ Muslim does not necessarily refer to the religion but to culture too. Islamic culture has influenced India a lot, so it is not right to refer to this influence specifically as Mughal. KRS 11:51, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

KRS- If you didn't realize, I'm not denying Islamic influence. Indeed, I was trying to be specific. Mughals ARE Muslims, so there's no confusion. But there are differences within Islamic culture, such as artforms and dress, etc. THe Mughals are a particular branch of Islamic culture. So I appreciate your deferential and political tone with me and the gratitude for contributions, but I would ask that you try to get in touch with the subject matter. Do some research on Mughal culture and you'll realize I'm not denying Islam, I'm cleaving to tenets of an encyclopedia, those of accuracy and giving as much info as possible. Hindu culture? Or Bengali / Tamil / Gujrati / Kashmiri Hindu culture? Makes a big difference buddy. --LordSuryaofShropshire 23:37, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

LordSuryaofShropshire, I was not trying to be politically correct in appreciating your contributions before going on to a touchy issue. Coming from different backgrounds there is bound to be a difference of opinion. In spite of that some common ground of truth can hopefully be arrived at.

I still have a difference of opinion with you regarding Islam and Mughal. Maybe I don't know much about music, so I will not get into a war over that. If you mean to say that Hindustani music is specifically influenced by the Mughals, I wouldn't know for sure. But I do know that in the field of architecture, Islamic culture in various forms had its influences, the most glorious of which, of course, is the Mughal. So it is incorrect to attribute all Islamic influences as Mughal.

BTW, one politically correct piece of advice(not in a deferential or condescending tone:-)), it is generally considered bad form to delete comments on your talk page. KRS 15:45, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So what you're basically saying is that you agree and you disagree. I will first address Mughal/Islam. You obviously didn't understand anything I wrote. I was merely clarifying that the group of MUSLIMS who affected Indian art were MUGHAL. That's why the art is called a miniature of the MUGHAL tradition. But that immediately implies Muslim. As I said, I'm quite aware that much of Hindustani (by which I mean north Indian) culture is heavily Islamically influenced. But there is a difference between the Islamic cultures of say, Turkey and Persia. They are affected by their immediate local and adjoining cultures. If you look at the India page, you'll note that I wrote Muslim in parentheses. Do you have a problem with my mentioning that they are Mughal?

Secondly, I believe it is bad form to disregard my request for open, NPOV discussion on the India: Talk board (look at the India Page History) and instead post on my discussion board. I am under no obligation to keep non-essential messages on my board. I believe, personally, that things that relate to me, such as requesting me to quiet down, or speak up, or to talk about arranging a large project, are certainly to be kept up. However, discussion of one specific topic (i.e. Mughal=Islamic or more) that is crucial to one article should be done in an open forum. I will, however, place your message on the India talk board so that the record is kept alive and available for later viewing. --LordSuryaofShropshire 16:30, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

Summarizing

This page could be reduced slightly (only slightly) be cutting a paragraph or two off the history section and summarizing the culture section into a length that does not need subheadings. Any info contained here should be at Culture of India too. This page is supposed to summarize that one. --Jia ng 00:29, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

@@ Line 106: / Line 106: @@
 :Your opinion on Hindustan'''i''' may be right. But IMHO, the term Hindustan is used in two contexts: 1. brandname, 2.to refer to India. As I said earlier, the second meaning is not at all or less used. The second meaning won't come into your mind, unless you read this type of historical articles or just heard __someone__'s speech. The first meaning is bit widely used. Yesterday, I talked to a guy from Hindustan College; I asked the reason behind the college name, he said 'it's just a name; again I asked whether it has any link to Hindustan==India, he immediately said "are you mad?". I know a tiny hardware shop named Hindustan workshop--which is run by a muslim guy. My *biased* opinion here is: if someone refers India as Hindustan, he must be a perverted politician or an absolute ignorant. This is my final word on the topic. You may continue your arguments with Nicholas or do some research. EOD. --[[User:Rrjanbiah|Rrjanbiah]] 04:33, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
+:: So fine, it's used as a brandname for India. It's still referring to the country. Asking the opinion of one student from a college means nothing. Are you now being bigoted against Muslims? Also, your value judgement on people referring to India as Hindustan as being politicians or ''absolute(ly) ignorant'' are irrelevant to the discussion. People, whether stupid or not, still use the term. This includes movies, brandnames, and casual discussions by many apparently stupid Indians, whether living in India or abroad. --[[User:LordSuryaofShropshire|LordSuryaofShropshire]] 16:55, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
 ====Hindustan in Popular Sentiment: Part Deux ====