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Gibraltar Spain border crossings

Is there any point in a category for this as there is only one of them. --Gibnews (talk) 18:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Probably not? Be bold and get rid of it. --Cyde Weys 19:13, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

CFD cited by Cydebot not found?

Where was the CFD cited by this edit? I can't find any CFD related to this particular change or to any more general discussions about this sort of change. - 194.158.79.70 (talk) 19:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

That was a speedy CFD, so there was no discussion per se. It looks like the only thing that was changed was the dash, I guess to bring it more in line with how other categories are named? It's an extremely minor issue. --Cyde Weys 17:41, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I've looked into this, and I am really very sorry to say it appears you / CydeBot have not followed the speedy CFD process correctly and the current results are wrong:

You created a renamed category (Category:Andorra–France border crossings)

You deleted the original category (Category:Andorra-France border crossings)

But from speedy CFD#7, and the settled consensus it cites, you should have redirected the old category, instead of deleting it.

Could you undelete and redirect the old category, please? Thank you. 194.158.79.70 (talk) 15:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Did you see Wikipedia:CFD#Redirecting categories? This category merits neither of the criteria for having a category redirect, so I think I'll leave it deleted. --Cyde Weys 19:29, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, and CFD#7 says such renamings must conform to MOS:DASH—did you see MOS:ENDASH#En dashes in page names? The reason behind this is that category names containing a hyphen can always be typed easily on any device, but this is not true of category names with an endash which cannot be typed as easily or even at all on some devices. It would therefore be helpful, especially for those readers whose devices are not endash-friendly, to have the old category name Category:Andorra-France border crossings as a redirect which is easier to type. 194.158.79.70 (talk) 23:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

And did you see the reasoning on the CFD page, which states that categories don't conform to the same redirect guidelines as articles? Readers type in article names; they don't type in category names. --Cyde Weys 23:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Despite the differences, I don't see a real problem in following speedy CFD criterion 7 and MOS:ENDASH, and making a cheap redirect from the old category name that can be easily typed by everybody; based on my own experience and that of others, readers certainly do type in category names—that's partly why I'd like it undeleted and made into a redirect.

Also, for copyright compliance, what happened to the non-empty history of the category? It hasn't been attributed at all in the new category, either in an edit summary or elsewhere; the CC-BY-SA 3.0 and GFDL require the new category to have proper attribution. If it were undeleted and made into a redirect, the history would be available in original form without further work. If you really won't undelete the old category name, could you at least cite the history, e.g. on the talk page of the new one or via the edit summary of a null edit, please? 194.158.79.70 (talk) 01:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Anon, this is not Cyde's responsibility, really. Sure, it's his bot, but other admins use his bot to carry out administrative actions. It's me you can talk to about this issue since I activated the bot to have it perform this function. Prior to implementing speedy #7, we had a discussion about this, and I think the general tenor of the discussion was in favour of retaining redirects in cases like this. They have to be done by hand, though, and there's some debate as to whether we are going to convert categories to hard redirects rather than soft. I was kind of waiting for this debate to settle out on the hard vs. soft before I went and created the redirects, but if you're feeling the need for one right now I think it's OK to have one. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:12, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation, G. I managed to miss the prominent talk page notice that Cydebot was used by other admins, and should really continue this discussion with you and the others over at CFD, so I'll keep this brief here. I hope we do move to category hard redirects, and would be happy to await the outcome of the debate; I just miss being able to type these endash-renamed categories since my mobile device does not support typing endashes! 194.158.79.70 (talk) 09:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll defer on the first point to Good Olfactory, but Anon, what exactly are you referring to in the second point? What copyrightable content do you think is on that category page? --Cyde Weys 02:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

C, First, I am sorry I missed the very obvious notice on Cydebot's talk page (all questions about category changes). I should continue this discussion with G and others over at CFD. Sorry for coming to your talk page. Second, since you asked, I'll just add very briefly that I think it is a reasonable interpretation of CC-BY-SA 3.0 / GFDL that every page—including categories—should have a record of who originally created it, when it was created, and history of subsequent edits, i.e. after renamings, categories should keep full edit histories by merging any histories from under their original names. 194.158.79.70 (talk) 09:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

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