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Requests for enforcement

Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important information

Shortcuts

Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

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Jvmphoto

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Jvmphoto

User requesting enforcement:
MediaMangler (talk) 03:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Jvmphoto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jeffrey_Vernon_Merkey#Jeffrey_Vernon_Merkey_banned

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:
Not applicable

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):
Not applicable

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Block user account.

Additional comments by MediaMangler (talk):
User of account claims to be the permanently banned Jeff Merkey.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jvmphoto&diffonly=1&diff=next&oldid=320675527&diffonly=1

Discussion concerning Jvmphoto

Statement by Jvmphoto

The subject of a biography is permitted to correct missing data and add a photo. This Merkey-Hating Troll and his friends have made it their lifes mission to deface any contribution by Merkey and have him banned. Whether banned or not, the subject of a biography is permitted to add a photo (which has been requested for over a year) and add simple demographic materials. Removal simply demonstrates this users personal hatred and vendetta against the subject of a biography -- with the sole intent to deface and vandalize the content of Wikipedia and this persons biography. It is MediaMangler and his associates who should be banned. In the present case, reliable content was removed and MediaManglers actions are nothing short of vandalism. If someone wants a photo and accurate information on personal family, birthdate, and other info, biographies of living persons allow the content to be added and/or corrected. It should also be noted that review of MediaManglers edit history clearly indicates he is a single purpose account who came to Wikipedia solely for the purpose of stalking and harassment of the subject of this biography. His edits are almost totaly geared towards a pattern of harassment and/or defamation of the subject of this bio. Jvmphoto (talk) 07:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other editors

Of course I don't actually know who is using the Jvmphoto account. Various things said in the talkpage history of that account seem designed to bring Merkey into disrepute and therefore suggest that the account is actually being used by one of his critics. Further, the personal details which the account has attempted to add to Jeff V. Merkey are the type of privacy violations which a stalker might be expected to make. The personal attack that Jvmphoto immediately directed at me certainly reads like one of Merkey's classic rants, but with so many examples available that is easy enough to mimic. --MediaMangler (talk) 13:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Jvmphoto

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Suspected return of banned user on Sathya Sai Baba

Powergate92

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Powergate92

User requesting enforcement:
jgp T C 03:36, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Powergate92 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking#Mass_date_delinking

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

[1] date delinking with generic edit summary that looks like it could've been done by a script
[2] see above, but different article
[3] now edit warring over it after being warned (see below warnings)
[4] third article, done after warning
[5] fourth article, done after warning
[6] fifth article, done after warning

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

[7] Warned by Ryulong (talk · contribs) that the issue is contentious
[8] Warning by Ryulong (talk · contribs) mentioning there was an arbitration ruling over it

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
appropriate-length block based on enforcement: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking#Enforcement_by_block

Additional comments by jgp T C:
User engaged in mass date delinking on several articles and edit-warred over it even after being warned.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [9]

Discussion concerning Powergate92

Statement by Powergate92

I was not using an automated script you can look at my monobook.js and see. I was not edit warring as you see in the edit summary I reverted has edit "per discussion at User talk:Powergate92#MOS:UNLINKDATES" That is not warning that him saying that I was making "automated edits that are not labeled as automated" when I was not. In that warning he said "There were two separate arbitration cases about it." but then did not show me links for the "two separate arbitration cases about it" when I asked him "Can you add the links for the "two separate arbitration cases about it"? Also if it's "extremely disputed over its usage" then why is it still part of WP:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)?"[10] but he said "I'm not sure what has come about of it or why it's not mentioned anywhere on that page."[11] and then I said "If your not going to add links for discussions about it being "extremely disputed over its usage" then I am going to revert your edits."[12] and then 14 hours after I said that I reverted has revert. Now that I see a link for the arbitration cases about it I am going to revert my edits. Powergate92Talk 04:15, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs of me reverting my edits that were not reverted by other users:[13][14][15] Powergate92Talk 04:33, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re to Tznkai: How is reverting 1 edit, 14 hours after the discussion ended edit warring? Powergate92Talk 05:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other editors

Result concerning Powergate92

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

For cryin' out loud, I cannot think of a single topic that justifies edit warring less than this. It isn't even funny enough to be lame, its just ridiculous. Powergate, do not edit war. Edit warring includes what you were doing - "its not automated" doesn't make it not edit warring, - arguing with someone on your talk page doesn't make it not edit warring. I do not see a clear violation since mass delinking implies more volume, but that won't stop a simple block for edit warring if this stupidity continues.--Tznkai (talk) 04:28, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion is not "I'm going to do something unless you do XXXXXX" its the active attempt to form an agreement.--Tznkai (talk) 20:24, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

General cautions are sadly rarely effective in disputes that turn up at arbitration enforcement. We should look at what sanctions need to be applied to the article or to the editors involved in the conflict. Comment on that note is welcomed. (That said, I do concur with Tznkai.) AGK 00:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if I'm involved now, Powergate92 baited Ryulong into 3RR and got him blocked, I unblocked him. I absolutely agree with Tznkai here, this is unbelievably lame and needs to stop about five minutes before it started. Guy (Help!) 21:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cptnono

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Cptnono

User requesting enforcement:
Tiamut^talk 14:15, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Cptnono (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

[16] Commenting on editors not content
[17] Ditto
[18] Ditto
[19] Request from me that he stop commenting on editors and stick to discussing content
[20] Cptnono continues to comment on editors (more generally) rather than content
[21] Request from me (again) to stop speculating/commenting on editors' motivations
[22] Cptnono continues to comments on editors. Excerpt: If you have Palestinian stuff on your user page you shouldn't be editing here.
[23] User:Sean.hoyland defending User:Nableezy and calling for people to begin filing reports at WP:AE about problematic behaviour
[24] Another request from me to Cptnono that he stop discussing users
[25] Cptnono continues to justfy his discussion of other editors' motivations.

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

from me, from me again, from Nableezy. For the extended discussion relating to all of these warnings, see here.

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Official warning be issued regarding I-P arbcomm case that notes that commenting on editors rather than content is unacceptable. It just sidetracks discussion on the talk page, wastes time, and impedes progress in achieving consensus. Cptnono's edits do fall under the purview of this case, as is indicated by the template at the top of Talk:Gaza War, but he is not taking heed of the special restrictions. A specific warning referencing the Arb comm decision may help him to understand that commenting on editors rather than content is unacceptable (Perhaps a reminder that WP:AGF and WP:NPA do apply to him too?) Requests to stop from the editors he is commenting about have not seemed to help. Maybe hearing it from an admin will.
Additional comments by Tiamut^talk:

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [26]

Discussion concerning Cptnono

Seeing as Cptnono says I stand behind my comments, it would be good to have an admin clarify if commenting on editors and their motivations is okay at I-P pages. If it is, I sure have a lot more to say. I've kept such thoughts (mostly) to myself, since my understanding is that by focusing on content and not contributors, we have a better chance of improving articles and a lower chance of pissing people off. Also, do admins agree with Ctpnono's statement that: If you have Palestinian stuff on your user page you shouldn't be editing here? Can I tell editors with Israeli symbols on their pages to take a hike from now on? Would I be immediately blocked for such a statement? Probably. Tiamut^talk 09:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I know it came across harsh but certain editors have not been responsible. Saying all was to far and I am happy to clarify that to some. I also do not believe there are any editors with Stars of Davids on the page. As a reminder, part of the reason that came up was another editor's assertion that Wikipeida is pro-israel. Furthermore, I wouldn't take offence if you said that editors who were editing in a biased manner should not be editing. We have to be neutral. I did not present the crticism with the intent to be malicious. I did it since we were discussing how to get the lock caused by other editors' edit warring lifted. I hope you understand that it was for the betterment of the article and not to attack anyone. I thought I made that clear so please understand that now if you didn't then.Cptnono (talk) 10:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Cptnono, but twice now you have used article talk pages to accuse first me, and then Nableezy of POV editing. In my case, you didn't cite any article edits I made, but instead focused on my user page content. In Nableezy's case, you harped on his lack of POV for taking a position opposed to yours on the issue of "the Gaza massacre". In both cases, you discussed (at length) our so-called motivations on the talk page, even after being asked to stop mutliple times. This is poisonous to the editing atmosphere and does nothing to help in the forging on consensus. Instead of discussing article content, the discussion falls into mutual recriminations or useless repetition (You are POV editing - No I'm not, please stop saying so - Yes you are - No I'm not stop it, etc., etc.) If you have a valid reason to suspet editors are engaged in POV editing, you can amass diffs and open an WP:AE case. Using article talk pages to issue unsubstantiated accusations is distracting and disruptive. And defending your right to do so after people ask you to stop is tendentious. Tiamut^talk 10:45, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And I stand by the accusations. I was overly crass with you which I apologized for but that doesn't change the fact that certain editors are only editing the page for a sole purpose. Many times this has lead to the railroading of content, skewing consensus to present information with a POV, and unnecessary reverts. You obviously did not deserve such a hard time but Nableezy clearly does deserve negative feedback (or constructive criticism as I said) from his history in my opinion and this is verified by several others criticizing him on related pages. I also think that I showed an obvious attempt to not attack him as a person but his editing. I was not attacking him personally like I did to you. In that situation I took a Wikibreak to chill out and apologized a day or so later. If you want this arbitration to be based off of that then say so but Nableezy should be able to discuss criticism about his editing. I presented links to another discussion bringing up the same charge. In this situation, you can ask me to stop all you want but it was a discussion that editors needed to be involved in and aware of. In regards to being disruptive, I was also making comments on how to get the lock lifted. I opened a few discussions. In two of issues I agree with what could easily come across against Israel. I wrote a draft. No one else was even trying. It is the exact opposite of being disruptive.Cptnono (talk) 11:04, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion ended awhile ago. I said what I thought needed to be said and went to bed before your request was even made here. I am not going to apologize since I was bringing up something in an attempt to better the article. Nableezy was showing that he was not willing to consider other options even though a few of us tried accommodating using the word "massacre" in the lead. He has still failed to show that it was used enough to deserve prominence over other terms but MrUnsignedAnon's new proposal could take care of that. So what is the point? Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users so I assume that is out of the question. I have no problem with an admin saying not do it again if it is considered disruptive. I'll bring it up in a different venue (a notice board or case like this) if I feel it should be discussed. I did mention this but thought your request that I stop and Nableezy's comment warranted a response. I should also have my name added to the people made aware of the sanctions on the topic. If an admin is going to admonish me that is OK. I would request that several editors on that page who's edit warring led to the lock along with anyone campaigning gets the same treatment. This discussion is about stopping my disruptive editing (which stopped over 24 hours ago) though and no one else's so that other stuff shouldn't be discussed in detail here. If an admin wants to tell me if I was wrong or not then I am willing to accept their judgment. Cptnono (talk) 12:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Response to "Comments by other editors" seciton.

SK: Thank you, Stellarkid. I think that is a perfect summary besides the gender. I also think it should be clear that I was a jerk a few weeks ago and felt my apology was in order.
NAB: I have also clarified my statement to "some" editors. I see it as the same concern of when as editor accused Stellarkid of "advocacy" (Romac) on Oct 5 and you asserted that I (or other editors) were making "strawman' arguments and engaging in "strongarming" which didn't raise eyebrows. I told you after you made those comments that you were coming across poorly (I used "poopey") which was surprising to me since we typically have a good rapport. I didn't expect those allegations from you.

If we need to bring up a discussion for arbitration enforcement regarding our differences we should do it. I see you were just almost blocked again for edit warring today and I think it would be a shame for either of us to not be involved in the consensus finding for the lead but if you want to keep it going we should do it in the proper venue. This discussion, however, was Tiamut jumping into a discussion and assuming I was attacking you when I was clearly trying to give you needed criticism. I have clarified the single comment that was out of line and stopped discussing it on the page. This discussion is also not about what would happen if someone said it about Israeli's, leprechauns, or anything else so any concerns with Israeli bias on Wikipeida should be brought up somewhere else. And like I said, I don't care what blood flows through your veins since editing neutrally is my concern.Cptnono (talk) 05:25, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NNMNG: Thanks NMMNG. I loled at "WP:be-passive-aggressive" and liked your phrasing in the first paragraph as a much better summary than mine. In Tiamut's defense, I flat-out called her a liar a few weeks ago. I have since apologized but that would be upsetting to anyone so if that is part of it that is understandable. Alternatively, I'm not going to speculate if other editors are gaming the system with this arbitration for enforcement since I can't be sure that is what is going on and if anything this is a reminder to not rock the boat so hard!Cptnono (talk) 12:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
NAB: ~~You~~ just accused Stellarkid of advocacy a few days ago. If you believe edits have been done solely to promote Israel you should tell me. That is my bad

And don't change the subject (me!) since I haven't shown up randomly to edit other articles in the topic. I also even explained to you the problem. I laid out perfectly clear that it appeared you were trying to WP:WIN and were given proposal that should have met all of your requests but you needed to have it asserted as a title which is incorrect (At least in a couple of our opinions). In regards to other editors with the colors, one who had never edited the article came out of nowhere and supported you and that has happened before. I agree with something that came from this enforcement: I should not have asserted that all editors with Palestinian, Hezbollah, or other colors should not be editing. I should have stopped at my previous comment of suggesting that they take a step back and reassess if they can edit or worded it similar to SK or NNMNG. I gave you a valid reason and I made it clear that it was not to hurt your feelings. I also did not launch into a tirade until it appeared that you were not willing to use administrative oversight. Yes you clarified it but initially that looked pretty bad. I don't see why we should not let other editors know when they are being viewed as editing with bias or gaming the system especially when there have been several cases of edit warring and such behavior. The concern was not to do it on the talk page and I stopped. I thought everyone should know since it was the charges impacted the specific article. If there is a next time I will seek administrative oversight instead of giving what I view as constructive criticism.Cptnono (talk) 00:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ah crap... RomaC said it a line below you. That is my bad. However your comments were about strawman arguments, strongarming, and questioning if I had a POV concern [27]. I don't mind if you feel that way. You can call me out at anytime and I should answer. As you suggest that can be continued on a user talk page if you want.Cptnono (talk) 02:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SK and Nab: I'm not offended and no striking out is needed. Nableezy can imply or make those charges if he wants. I deny it and will continue to say that people flying either flag need to watch out for bias. That isn't what this enforcement process is about so I'm find waiting and seeing how an admin feels and dropping it for now.Cptnono (talk) 06:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tiamut: I did not see your additional comment earlier. Just a quick follow-up: I did tell Nableezy why I thought he was being biased. Stellarkid also gave an excellent summary of why he feels your user page is not constructive to the project. These are not attacks to be mean. It is constructive criticism since editors feel you need to hear it. Per the whole principle of the arbitration concern: Do you want to discuss this in another more appropriate venue (particular user page, arbitraiton enforcement, whatever)? This is supposed to be my party.Cptnono (talk) 07:05, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cptnono

I stand behind my comments. The three sections below are a proper summary of any statement I could make (bold emphisis on a few lines not in original text)

"I will not agree with BashBrannigan's suggestion since it asserts as a title and it is against the manual of style (Title's need to be bolded in the lead). My solution was dumbing down the lead to the point that there is no mention of Israel's operational name and to be frank it makes them look pretty bad (which they deserve to some extent of course). Even with this, I still including the term massacre since people did describe it as a massacre. Some people have even used it as a title but it was relativity rare when comparing it to the multiple other titles out there. If Nableezy requires it to be asserted as a title then there is a huge roadblock and we will have to add several others (which is like BashBrannigan suggestion only we will do it per MOS).''Also, regardless of the two of us agreeing or not (since it isn't required to not edit war and it isn't either of our's decision anyways), there was another series of edit warring that caused the page to get locked. It was over another editor's cleanup of someone else's cleanup of someone else's cleanup of a poorly laid out lead and a few other portions of the article. (please see the handful recently added discussions to this talk page and the reverts with several editor's names mentioned in the edit history).Cptnono (talk) 09:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)"

"Ok, this is out of proportions. Bring it to Arbritation and let them decide after we made our points heard. Then we lock part by part arbritated. For eternal time untuched my editors. Mr Unsigned Anon (talk) 10:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, that is not how it works. nableezy - 07:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm OK with any administrative action or oversight. Nableezy is fresh off of charges of gaming the system and winning by shear staying power with allegations of campaigning. ( here and here I like him but agree with the concern. Nableezy's priorities are Palestine and not Wikipedia. I know those look like horrible charges to make but he was presented with a perfectly fine option and disregarded any "compromise" (we shouldn't be compromising facts). I would like to think that he is an alright guy (I really do like him) but his edits show that there is a sole purpose and that is Palestine not Wikipedia.[28] Cptnono (talk) 12:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)"*[reply]

"You made it clear that the discussion of edit waring did not involve me. You edit war on more than one Gaza-Israeli based pages. I full-on expect a negative response from you. I am doing it for constructive criticism since no one else has (including admins) when you need it. We can move this to a talk page if you want but I'm not calling you out to be a dick. I'm doing it since other editors perceive you as gaming the system.Cptnono (talk) 12:50, 10 October 2009 (UTC)"[reply]

*since inserting these comments from the talk page Nableezy has raised concerns that I was misrepresenting him. Nableezy clarified his "not how it works" comment with a comment about the process. This is an overview of my actions not his and the intent of using the statement was to show that I was happy to use other available methods to resolve the dispute.Cptnono (talk) 04:25, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other editors

I have to support Cptnono here. although I have only recently become involved in this article (and in WP) this accusation strikes me as terribly unfair. Cptnono has been trying to advance this article and maintain a NPOV. He has expressed his opinions on the talk page and never edit warred. I thought his opinions were carefully and deliberately spelled out and that they were dismissed, as were mine, and all others with a different viewpoint, out-of-hand. I noticed right away that editors who were in favor of removing "massacre" from the lede were reverted almost instantaneously by those who wished to include "massacre" in the lede. Warnings were put on the talk pages of the anti- folks. Requests to self-revert, ostensibly to achieve the same end as reverting, without the threat of 3RR noticeboard.

I see this action, and the one directly below it, against Shuki, as part of an attempt by certain editors to silence certain other editors. It begins when a small group of singleminded individuals come into an article and begin editwarring. They insist that consensus be achieved on the talk page, and then other like-minded individuals come in and refuse to cooperate on the article although they give a superficial appearance of doing so. Unwelcome, pov edits are made and insisted on, due to "lack of consensus" or other reasons. Then small things are blown up and an editor who was unhappy with a change is taken to some enforcement board or another, for lack of etiquette, too many reverts, or this board.

Can truth be a defense? In other words, is Cptnono correct when he claims bias? Take Tiamut for example. Tiamut has never been rude to me, though he has (in my opinion) a clear and demonstrated bias that effects his judgment.

These quotes prominently placed on his talk page, consider:

"I am a Palestinian. Hath not a Palestinian eyes? Hath not a Palestinian hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Jew is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that -- the villainy you teach me, I will execute; and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction." Tariq Ali's take on Shakespeare in the Khaleej Times
"It is not enough for the settler to delimit physically, that is to say with the help of the army and the police force, the place of the native. As if to show the totalitarian character of colonial exploitation the settler paints the native as a sort of quintessence of evil ... The native knows all this ... he knows that he is not an animal, and it is precisely at the moment he realizes his humanity that he begins to sharpen the weapons with which he will secure his victory. --From Frantz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth

First paragraph is a Palestinian's "take" on Shylock. In Shakespeare, the Jew is the victim of the gentile. In Tiamut's world, the Palestinian is the victim of the Jew. He talks of being wronged, and of taking revenge. "The villany you teach me", he says he will execute, and do one better. The Jews have taught the Palestinian villainy and the Palestinians, according to this, will be even more villainous in return.

Taking a look at the second quote, we understand that the "settler" of which he speaks is a Jewish settler (an Israeli). Referring to the settler as demonstrating "the totalitarian character of colonial exploitation," he claims that (all) settlers paint the "natives" as evil, suggesting that they are animals. Palestinians, knowing that they are not animals, "begin to sharpen their weapons..."

This is the epitome of a battlefield mentality and I believe that editing I-P articles with such a mindset is not going to contribute to collaborative editing, but instead lead to editing warring and disruption such as this enforcement action and the similar one below. Stellarkid (talk) 04:36, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are so many things wrong with the above. To begin with the simple things, Tiamut is a she, Tariq Ali is not a Palestinian, and Franz Fanon was not writing about Israel, though some may feel his words apply to the situation. But the biggest problem with the above, and with Cptnono's comments about having Palestinian flags on userpages disqualifying somebody from editing, is that it is strictly an argument directed at the person and not the substance of that person's argument. People should not be making such comments, and any user making comments that any user with an Israeli flag on their user page should be disqualified from editing would be swiftly subject to at least a topic ban, and rightly so. nableezy - 04:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Cptnono was doing a bit of hyperbole about the flags. He did not limit himself to the flag of one side or the other. His argument was meant more abstractly as pointed out in the post below, by NoMoreMrNiceGuy. That Tiamut is a she, or that Tariq Ali is not a Palestinian ,or that Ferdinand's comments were not directed to Israel makes no difference. I was talking on a more abstract level. Tiamut expresses her bias very clearly on her user page, what she considers to be "settled" opinion, no pun intended. The trouble is in the area of I-P conflict, one has to be sensitive to the other side's view if there is to be collaboration. When one considers the other side "the enemy," there is little doubt that one will act upon it, whether in his editing, or in the manner in which he handles his "enemies," that is, by trying to get the "authorities" involved on his "side." Stellarkid (talk) 15:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He actually did limit himself to one "sides" flag. But we dont judge editors based on their political leanings or what they put on their user page, we judge them based on their article edits and their interactions with others. If you, or anybody else, has a problem with what is on Tiamut's user talk page dont look at it. Do you think it is easy for "the other side" to work with those who have boxes expressing support for Yisrael Beiteinu, a party that has called for forced expulsions of Arabs and has been called variously fascist, racist, and ultra-racist? Or users who have user boxes proclaiming that independence for Palestinians "has been achieved with the establishment of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan"? What do you think the reaction would be if I were to say "X user has an Israeli flag on their user page, that user should not be allowed to edit in areas dealing with Israel"? But this misses the point. Do not focus your attention on the user, focus it on the argument. If there are behavioral issues, focus on the actual behavior. Not "she has some words on her user page I dont like". nableezy - 16:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He did say something to that effect, see [29]. He specifically referred to the Star of David being on a user's page. It was a metaphor for activism on either side. It is unfair to paint him as Arabphobic or supportive of far-right in Israel as you are implying. I would think you would strike the above comment as inappropriate. Stellarkid (talk) 06:22, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You, again, miss the point. And I did not imply that he "Arabphobic" or "supportive of far-right in Israel". But, again, that is besides the point. To repeat the missed point, you should not be making comments on what you think are other editors motivations but on the edits that user makes. As much as I dislike those who continuously repeat the following phrase, I will write it down once. Focus on content, not on editors. We get it this time or will there be another response that completely misses the point? nableezy - 06:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is you who misses the point. It appears that content has been discussed for some 57(?) archived pages in less than a year. As has been demonstrated, the "massacre" question has been discussed almost that long. There comes a time when it is appropriate to ask if there are some editors who are purposefully impeding collaboration due to bias and POV. Stellarkid (talk) 16:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think what Cptnono meant when talking about Palestinian flags on userpages is that there are unabashed activists for Palestinian nationalism (or other political agendas), who care more about their political leanings than improving Wikipedia, and that if your activism is so important to you that you cover your userpage with your politics, maybe it would be better if you involved yourself in other areas of this encyclopedia.

Cptnono's main mistake was that he forgot about WP:be-passive-aggressive and said what he thought in no uncertain terms, which resulted in Tiamut filing this request (not on her own behalf but for someone with similar political leanings, funnily enough).

There's little doubt in my mind that this request (and the one following it) weren't filed because someone said something not so nice on a couple of occasions (as if the requester herself doesn't do that on occasion - proof to be supplied on request), but to silence active editors of perceived opposing political views. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NMMNG, Your post is a series of personal attacks based on my user page content rather than the content of my edits. I understand that my pride in my identity is offensive to you, but like Nableezy said, you are not forced to look at my user or talk pages. For someone so irritated by my political leanings, you do seem to go out of your way to interact with me. Perhaps it is not I seeking a WP:BATTLE?

The reason I filed this complaint is simple: Cptnono was discussing contributors and not content at Talk:Gaza War. He has done it before too. He was asked by more than one editor to stop. He did not. He continued to defend his right to speculate about the motivations of his fellow editors, even here.

You have done that too. Providing no diffs of disruptive activity (even when requested to previously mutliple times), he (and you) feel free to cast aspersions upon me and Nableezy because we have flags on our pages? Should every editor who has a flag on his page be banned from editing in related topic areas? Or is it just Arab ones that are verboten? Please point to disruptive editing patterns (filing a case here with diffs and everything). Otherwise, I would ask that you stop distracting people with unsupported accusations. Tiamut^talk 17:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My post was about user pages in general, not specifically about yours. I don't understand why you think everything I do revolves around you and frankly I probably lack the professional expertise to find out. I do not care about your identity nor your political leanings other than when they negatively influence the edits you make in this encyclopedia. I wish you'd stop repeately accusing me of an interest in you I don't even remotely have. Seriously.

I'd also appreciate it if you'd stop implying I am racist against Arabs like you did above or here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

She said you were exploiting "people's latent racism against Arabs". And you, as well as Cptnono, specifically said "Palestinian flags" and you said "unabashed activists for Palestinian nationalism", though you did throw in "(or other political agendas)" though I have yet to see you raise an issue with users promoting extreme right-wing Israeli agendas or any other supposed political agenda. And it can be easily demonstrated that you have "an interest" in Tiamut's edits, randomly showing up in the most obscure articles shortly after she had edited a page. No matter though, the point here is that people should not be commenting on what they think an editor's motivations are. If there is something objectionable in her, or mine or anybody elses, edits then explain the problem with the edits. It is not that difficult to understand. Many of us have made personal attacks, though this unabashed and tireless defense of those attacks is worrisome. I think all sorts of things about many users, such as you or Stellarkid or a number of others, regarding their motivations or "professional" nature of their time here, but I keep it to myself. nableezy - 18:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cptnono, where did I accuse him of "advocacy". I made comments about his edits. And I really dont care that you said that to me. You should not have said it where you said it and you are wrong and so many other things could be said about your comments, but me caring is not one of them. The rest of my response to NMMNG was about his comments that were directed at Tiamut. If you want to have a reasoned conversation about my editing my talk page would be a good place to start (mind the banner at the top though). This has been much ado over nothing, though it was exacerbated by some of your comments. Could somebody please close this out? Nothing is going to be accomplished here. nableezy - 02:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that this case should end with no action taken? Personally, I'm inclined to agree= I vehemently disagree with Cptnono's commentary but I don't believe that administrative actions here would really contribute to making things better. The Squicks (talk) 19:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Notification of the ARBPIA case would be fine (that is all Tiamut requested) and I think any editor who is edits in the area should receive that notification (I actually asked an admin to notify me) but it would not be the end of the world if that did not happen. nableezy - 20:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This thread is much too lengthy. I hope not one of you expect the administrator who reviews the complaint to read this discussion in its entirety. AGK 00:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This board doesn't seem to be very effective at all. If an admin popped in five days ago to simply say "On article talk pages, comment on content not contributors please," proceeding to give Cptnono notification of the Arbcomm case (something even he agreed should happen above), there wouldn't be a magnum opus to read here. Instead, the thread was left to languish for five days, people were allowed to make all sorts of wild speculations, and then the first admin to comment says he hopes we don't expect other to read all this. I don't like reading it either. Much of the "discussion" is a series of unsubstantiated accusations. Commenting on editors at AE without providing diffs substantiating commentary is also strangely tolerated here. What is this place? A kangeroo court? Tiamut^talk 01:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Cptnono

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Shuki

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Shuki

User requesting enforcement:
untwirl(talk) 19:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Shuki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate it, and an explanation how they do so

[30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36] - these were the edits shuki was warned about on 10/7
[37] continuing changes after warning
[38] continuing changes after warning
[39] more edit warring (along with inappropriate commentary insinuating racism)
[40] continuing changes after warning
[41] continuing changes after warning
plus all of these from the user's contributions:
10:03, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Ma'on ‎ (Undid revision 318718235 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10:03, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Immanuel (town) ‎ (Undid revision 318716885 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10:03, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Beit Horon ‎ (rv OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10:02, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Alon Shvut ‎ (Undid revision 318718337 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10:01, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Efrat ‎ (Undid revision 318718628 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10:01, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Kiryat Arba ‎ (Undid revision 318718824 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10:00, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Avnei Hefetz ‎ (Undid revision 318719858 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10:00, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Ma'ale Mikhmas ‎ (Undid revision 318719976 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10:00, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Kokhav HaShahar ‎ (Undid revision 318720051 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
10:00, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Sha'arei Tikva ‎ (Undid revision 318720146 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
09:59, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Beit El ‎ (Undid revision 318720326 by Nableezy (talk)OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
09:59, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Alon, Mateh Binyamin ‎ (OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
09:58, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Barkan ‎ (Undid revision 318720575 by Nableezy (talk)OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)
09:58, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Ma'ale Adumim ‎ (Undid revision 318646193 by Dailycare (talk) unneeded edit, might construe all Palestinian settlements as holding same status)
09:57, 9 October 2009 (hist | diff) Adora, Har Hebron ‎ (Undid revision 318719523 by Nableezy (talk) OR, POV, emphasizing vague label over specific identity of the locality)

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy)

[42] Notification of sanctions by CIreland (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
[43] Warning by CIreland (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) "Shuki (talk · contribs) is notified of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles and the article in question watchlisted. I would be inclined to apply discretionary sanctions if the edit-warring over the order of adjectival phrases in the ledes of such articles continues. Involved editors may prefer to go to WP:AE for further reports."

Editor notified
[44]
Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
whatever action admins deem appropriate; ~~topic ban~~ editing topic ban, narrowly construed and excluding talk pages so the editor can participate in discussion seems most likely to help since warnings and notifications haven't.

Additional comments
This editor is edit warring over calling israeli settlements "villages" or "kibbutzes" first instead of the most common name: Israeli settlements. After being warned and notified of sanctions, shuki has continued this behavior aggressively. I went ahead and returned most articles to their consensus based state, however I will not continue to revert. This issue needs admin attention.
Due to shuki's concern's in [45] exchange, i have stricken and adjusted my suggested remedy. untwirl(talk) 22:11, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Shuki

Statement by Shuki

The only thing that I am going to say on this here is that it is plain 'weenie' and bad faith pre-emptive effort to gang up and silence me after I was merely notified of the existence of the I-P sanctions (and you might all need to admit that I am one of the most prominent I-P area editors who has not received this official notice until now because of simply not needing to).

A) There is absolutely no warning of sanctions as explicitly stated by admin Clerland.

B) The Untwirl user did not even bother to open a section on WP:AN3, instead went for the kill on this page.

C) The user Untwirl abused WP:AGF by not even giving me a week to digest the 'notification'.

D) I already announced last week that I plan on opening a DR later this week (because of G below).

E) I already started a pre-DR discussion at WP Israel in order to avert a mass edit war by multiple editors that Untwirl, unfortunately, could not resist joining in.

F) The discussion is already dominated by non-WP Israel members because...

G) last week and this weekend is a religious Jewish holiday around the world and

H) I am certainly expecting opposing editors to respect that.

I) If anything, I suggest that it is Untwirl who is now the next candidate to receive notification of Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Log_of_notifications for his controversial unilateral reverts on 10 October 2009 while a healthy discussion has already begun and for opening a false and misleading request on this page which has put an undeserved mark on my username, especially given my taking the lead in the attempt to resolve this conflict. --Shuki (talk) 21:35, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other editors

I dont think this is necessary, Shuki said that a WP:DR process would be started shortly over this issue and I dont think it would be a problem to wait on that before doing anything here. IMO this should be closed without any action. nableezy - 19:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, i missed that statement by shuki. could you provide a link, please? this is the user's last contribution and i don't see any statement that an rfc or dr process is being started. plus, all of those edits are after the notification and warning by an uninvolved admin. untwirl(talk) 19:37, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I plan on opening a WP:DR early next week. nableezy - 20:22, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

how does that statement on 10/9 justify diffs # 2-6 on 10/10? untwirl(talk) 20:28, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not trying to justify anything, I am saying that the best way forward would be an RfC on the topic which Shuki said would be forthcoming. That being the case I think it would be fair to wait on that RfC and see what happens. nableezy - 20:44, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

he was warned on the 7th. made many related edits on the 9th. said on the 9th he would seek DR. on the 10th continued on the same issue without seeking dr. you can't just say, "i'm going to seek dr next week" and then continue doing the same thing you have been warned about. i dont understand why you are defending this behaviour. untwirl(talk) 20:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment—actually this is a content dispute, and the editor who most clearly violated policy is not Shuki, as explained here (in reference to Nableezy). The user was notified in the past of the case, therefore I request that the enforcement be extended to include him as well, if action is taken against Shuki. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 00:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I have only now noticed that the user who filed this request did exactly the same thing that they are accusing Shuki of doing—a mass revert in the articles in question. This does not help matters, and the things I said in the linked-to post apply here as well. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 01:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your accusation of me violating policy was nonsense the first time you made it, it is no less nonsensical now. nableezy - 01:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ynhockey, I think your comment is rather unhelpful and misrepresents the situation. Nableezy's objectives and actions increase the compliance of article content with mandatory core policies. Shuki's actions decrease the compliance of article content with mandatory core policies. Nableezy argues by referring to core policies. Shuki and others argue using subjective emotional feelings about the meaning of words and people's intentions. Dispute resolution is the right course but it would certainly help if everyone could stick to just making policy based arguments and stop treating wikipedia as an ethnic battleground. If this AE request reduces the about of non-policy based actions/statements by editors then that is a good thing in ny view. Sean.hoyland - talk 03:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

if requested by an uninvolved admin i will happily self-revert. i was simply undo-ing the actions which shuki had been warned not to continue. untwirl(talk) 01:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion?

I think it is worth pointing out that in addition to the more general I-P case, there was a subsequent one dealing with the “Judea and/or Samaria” vs “West Bank” naming dispute. The underlying issue there was fairly similar – does WP follow the terminology used by the vast majority of real world English-language sources, even within Israel, to describe something; or does it use a minority terminology? As with this issue, it also spread itself across multiple pages. It would seem to me that WP rules are pretty clear on this, eg in respect of place names at least, per WP:NCGN – “By following modern English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called, instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called.” I was one of the editors who ended up being topic banned in that decision, when ArbCom decided to ban everyone they thought was involved in past edit wars over the issue, regardless of which “side” they were on, or what sins they may or may not have actually committed. In some cases, this was as few as 4-5 reverts over a two to three month period around the beginning of 2009, several months prior to the case even being heard (see this table). Anyway, I’m not commenting here in a bid to violate my topic ban, or in order to ask for User:Shuki to be clobbered, but because it seems relevant for the following reasons –

That decision does set a clear precedent that this kind of thing is, to say the least, frowned upon
Shuki should know this, because they were involved in edit warring on the West Bank issue along with everyone else at the beginning of 2009 (eg here, here, here, etc) and were lucky not to get caught by the decision (it was fairly arbitrary in terms of who it hit, and the grounds on which it hit people). That makes it doubly bad that they are continuing to do pretty much the same thing all over again, especially in terms of following an editor to multiple articles to make contentious changes
The West Bank decision also called for some sort of formal guidelines for the underlying West Bank vs J&S naming issue to be agreed. Oddly perhaps, this was not even included as part of the proposed decision at first, and even when it eventually was, it did not call for a wider I-P naming convention. Even though – ahem – some of us were calling for precisely that from the outset of the case, and had to repeat that point subsequently before even the limited provision was included in the final decision. It was fairly obvious all along that a related issue would just blow up somewhere else a couple of months down the line, as several people pointed out to ArbCom as their plans for dealing with the case became clear

Anyway, it seems the most obvious solution is to expand those guidelines to include the settlement point, as well as any other relevant disputed I-P naming issues, and for this to be done under ArbCom’s gaze, as before. As, perhaps, should have been done in the first place. --Nickhh (talk) 09:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just looked over the links in the above post (obviously did not read the total case) but see that a lot of established editors on WP were banned from editing in the area indefinitely. This seems to me to be handling an issue that should require scalpels with a butcher knife instead, and we see now that the underlying (larger) issues were not addressed. If the question of Judea&Samaria were the only issue it would be (mostly) fixed now. J&S is clearly only a symptom of a larger problem, one that will not be solved through the use of a butcher knife. Stellarkid (talk) 15:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support this proposed approach. I had a similar idea involving centrally agreed standardised content statements about these issues that could be deployed to the relevant articles to ensure global consistency and global consensus e.g. a statement about the occupation status of X would be a globally standard statement with a standard set of refs that has been agreed centrally. We can't keep having the same arguments over and over and over again. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure I agree. Guidelines perhaps, but "centrally agreed standardized content statements" "to ensure global consensus" only enforces a ~~possibly~~ probably false consensus and does not take into consideration that consensus can change with the facts. Further it is unlikely that a real consensus can be agreed upon when you have two groups so diametrically opposed. When Israel comes to an agreement with the Palestinians ("final status")- and vice versa - then an appropriate consensus can be made. Until then, it will be like the U.S. Republicans and the U.S. Democrats agreeing on a President, that is, either a false consensus or a forced consensus. Stellarkid (talk) 15:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that the statements would be static in nature. Consensus could change but the changes would be centralised as would be the discussions. It means you would have one ongoing discussion for one issue that evolves rather than many fragmented edit wars distributed over the project. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - I’m not sure Wikipedia needs to wait until a final status agreement for the real world Israeli-Palestinian dispute before a group of (hopefully) rational, well-informed and reasonably objective people here can come to an agreement about what certain things are currently called, or how they are referred to, in most English language sources; and then apply that agreement across all related articles. Those articles have to say something, and hopefully say something accurate – the choice is between agreeing it centrally, or fighting over it again and again on every individual page; not between whether people have the debate or not. Of course, that agreement can then be updated if and when the terminology in the outside world changes (not something that's imminent, I suspect, in any event). And the status of MEPP, or what either “side” - let’s assume for the sake of argument that they each think as a homogenous whole - involved in the conflict happens to think at any one point in time, actually has very little to do with it (a mistake ArbCom made when they figured the West Bank vs Judea & Samaria issue as if it was partisans from each side slugging it out). Each of them can argue what they like – it’s what the majority of uninvolved, mainstream international sources use at the moment that’s what counts. Anyway, I've said my piece I guess, and have no wish to be involved substantively, even if I were allowed to be under the slightly bizarre and unevenly applied punishment regime in force in this area. Perhaps this is better raised anyway at the arbitration noticeboard or something? --Nickhh (talk) 07:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Shuki

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Abbatai

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Abbatai

User requesting enforcement:
Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested:
Abbatai (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2

Note: It is to be assumed that it is this sub-section that is being cited. AGK 23:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it:

[46], First revert made by Abbatai, along with unnecessarily rude and snide remark
[47], Second revert

Diffs of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required by the remedy):

[48] Warning by Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction):
Indefinite topic ban on Armenian-Turkey articles/year long block

Additional comments by Marshal Bagramyan (talk):
This user has had a long history of vandalism and disruption on articles relating to Armenia and Turkey, and particularly on the Armenian Genocide. He was blocked on two consecutive occasions for aggressively adding unsourced POV and revert warring on the Iğdır article. He recently just reverted me, sans discussion, on that article, removing the Armenian name for the town, even though I cited reliable sources on its relevance; he also re-inserted misleading information on Armenian Genocide on the same article. He was blocked for one week for incivility and as it clearly shows above, he clearly does not care about that rule.

He now has violated 1RR on the Armenia–Turkey relations article, and is once more adding POV and factually inaccurate information on the Armenian Genocide, without even showing an inclination to discuss or explain his edits. I believe more stringent action is needed, given his propensity to insult and revert war his way through articles.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested:
[49]

Discussion concerning Abbatai

Statement by Abbatai

Those users who blame me see wikipedia as a antiturkism propaganda tool.I should say that because of those editors wikipedia includes many antiturkish articles.I am just trying to be objective and make wikipedia objective.Also I never denied Armenian genocide.Just look at Igdir they remove citations that verify turkish massacres by armenians and they deny the massacres.I hope you will see their subjective and antiturkish thinking way.--Abbatai (talk) 12:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Abbatai's statement moved from another section.) AGK 12:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, you don't seem to have responded to the merits of the accusation that has been made. Rather, you simply have tried to discredit the persons who have filed the request. The most useful comments from you would be ones that would counter the evidence cited in this complaint. AGK 12:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other editors

Abbatai reverted twice within a short period of time, and in both instances without any apparent attempts at discussion with the other party to the disagreement. In light of the fact that he has previously been issued a warning with a link to the Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 discretionary sanctions remedy, I am inclined to agree that Abbatai ought to be sanctioned. The severity of the sanction would, however, depend on the context of the disagreement and on how positive Abbatai's behavioural record has been (on the article and in the subject area in question). I would welcome comment on this note. Additionally, I would welcome a statement from Abbatai and also other useful input.
Having also reviewed the disagreement that forms the context of this complaint, I would like to register my disappointment that on both occasions where Abbatai has changed the title of the "Armenian revolutionary movement" section, he has been reverted without any discussion—in one case by Kansas Bear and in the other by MarshallBagramyan (who filed this complaint). A wider shift from reversion to discussion and co-operation seems to be necessary for all involved in this dispute, and so (as, admittedly, but a preliminary comment), I would suggest that it may be the case that article-wide sanctions are needed to discourage unproductive conflict. At the very least, however, I think that Kansas Bear and Marshall ought to be formally notified of the A-A2 discretionary sanctions remedy (if this has not previously been done).
Again, comment on my remarks is welcome. Apologies for the excessive length of this post. AGK 23:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I intend to close (and act on) this complaint, in much the same vein as above, by Saturday evening (UTC)—absent any further developments. AGK 12:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result concerning Abbatai

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 ====Comments by other editors====
+Of course I don't actually know who is using the [[User:Jvmphoto|Jvmphoto]] account.  Various things said in the talkpage history of that account seem designed to bring Merkey into disrepute and therefore suggest that the account is actually being used by one of his critics.  Further, the personal details which the account has attempted to add to [[Jeff V. Merkey]] are the type of privacy violations which a stalker might be expected to make.  The personal attack that [[User:Jvmphoto|Jvmphoto]] immediately directed at me certainly reads like one of Merkey's classic rants, but with so many examples available that is easy enough to mimic.
+--[[User:MediaMangler|MediaMangler]] ([[User talk:MediaMangler|talk]]) 13:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 ===Result concerning Jvmphoto===