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October 26

Umlauts

I have looked at all the pages I could find on umlauts, but I still do not quite understand how to pronounce an umlaut. My question is if anyone has a simpler way that I can understand to explain how umlauts in German are pronounced. Filosojia X Non(Philosophia X Known) 06:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philosophia X Known (talk • contribs)

My German teacher told me it had the effect of squashing the vowel, and you produced that effect by squeezing your lips and tongue so the space in the mouth was narrower. Does that help? --TammyMoet (talk) 09:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)sq

I learned that you should pronounce the vowel as you would normally, but shape your mouth as if you are saying a different vowel. For "ö", you would say "o" as usual, except your mouth (well in this case just your tongue) would be positioned as if you were saying "u". I don't know if that makes any more sense to you; it's not exactly how those letters are pronounced, but it's a good approximation when you're starting out. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I have to disagree somewhat with Adam Bishop on this. If you want to pronounce long "ö", you need to pronounce German "ee" (similar to English "ay" but without the "y" offglide a the end) with your lips rounded. Short "ö" is a slightly different vowel, which you can produce by pronouncing "e" (as in English "red") while rounding your lips. You can produce long "ü" by pronouncing German "ie" (English "ee") with rounded lips. Short "ü" can be produced by pronouncing "i" (as in English "stick") while rounding your lips. As for "ä", it doesn't involve rounding at all. In most dialects of German, "ä" is pronounced just like "e" in the same position (long "ä" like German "ee", short "ä" like short German (or English) "e"). However, in some southern German dialects, this is true only for short "ä" (which still sounds like short "e"). In these southern German dialects, long "ä" has a unique sound that is difficult to describe to an English speaker. It is somewhere between short "e" and "a" as in "apple". Marco polo (talk) 15:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Argh, yes, that's what I meant. Sorry! I think what I described is how to pronounce /y/ (as in French "tu")... Adam Bishop (talk) 18:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

No, Adam, what you described was the pronunciation of English 'u'. 'U' in French is very close to German 'ü'. None of these sounds are anywhere near German 'ö'. But you know this, anyway...:) --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 21:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Ä is just like the German E ([e:] when long, [ɛ] when short). Ö is [ø:] when long and [œ] when short. Ü is [y:] when long and [ʏ] and when short. If you can't pronounce the rounded front vowels, I would go like this:

[e͡ʊ] (first part stressed) for /ø:/ [ɜ] for /œ/ [i͡u] (first part stressed) for /y:/ [ɪ͡ʊ] (first part stressed) for /ʏ/ --88.74.4.198 (talk) 17:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I expect the OP doesn't know IPA. After all, most people don't. --Tango (talk) 18:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Tango is right, I don't know IPA, but I think Marco Polo's was the best, except for the fact that I don't quite understand what you mean by long or short, but it's okay. Filosojia X Non(Philosophia X Known) 03:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Do we have some recordings to which we could refer this person? - Jmabel | Talk 04:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Something here must be useful. What does this sound like? I have no sound card. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

English punctuation here

[...] Our forefathers dedicated an entire amendment to this cause for a reason, to protect the people.

What is the correct punctuation here? Comma, semicolon, or colon? -- penubag  (talk) 09:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Colon. Semi-colon is wrong. Comma is not wrong but doesn't have the same sense of emphasis. A dash would be another option. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

See colon.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

What you want is a colon, and I'm going to disagree with Richardrj and say that a comma would change the meaning of the sentence. With a colon, the meaning of the latter part of the sentence is, "the reason was to protect the people". With a comma, it would be properly read as, "it was dedicated for a reason and it was dedicated to protect the people". Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree - a colon means the reason was to protect the people a comma means that the reason for having a reason was to protect the people. The former is almost certainly what is intended. --Tango (talk) 18:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

@Comet Tuttle: he didn't say the comma would change the meaning, he said it would change the emphasis.

And for what it's worth, even with a comma the sentence can still be read as "the meaning is to protect the people". rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 18:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

You're correct on both points; as I wrote, I'm disagreeing with him, because he didn't say it would change the meaning, whereas, when read properly, a comma does change the meaning. It is possible to read the sentence, improperly, in the way you say; but if using ordinary rules of grammar, a comma provides quite a different meaning than a colon, not merely a change of the amount of emphasis. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I thought it as a colon but wasn't 100%. I didn't know about the hyphens though. -- penubag  (talk) 08:25, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Making Little Words From Big Words

Can you please tell me is there a word that describes the process of "making little words from big words". For example the big word is soldier, the little words that you can make are sold, die, old, red, rid etc.

Thank you for your help

DiscoverIT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.215.202 (talk) 12:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The big word would be called a "portmanteau word". --TammyMoet (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

We have an article on portmanteaus, of course, at Portmanteau; but I thought a portmanteau had an element of intentionality to it, whereas I doubt that "soldier" is a word that was created thousands of years ago by combining those short words because they had something to do with the concept of a soldier. I think the OP is looking for a term for a word puzzle of some kind? Whether that's true or not, maybe Compound (linguistics) is closer? Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I don't think this is what OP means. Soldier is not a portmanteau word for sold, die, old, red, and rid. What OP is talking about is called a variation without repetition (ordered subset of a given set) in mathematics. I don't know if there's a specific word for variations of letters of a given word that are words themselves in a natural language. A permutation of letters of a given word that is a word itself in a natural language is called an anagram. — Kpalion^(talk) 16:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Yep, portmanteau is not it. When you make up a related word by stripping false suffixes/prefixes off an existing word, that's called backformation (for example, archer --> "I'm gonna arch that"; unkempt --> "his hair is so kempt"). But that's not quite the same as what you've described, DiscoverIT, where it's based just on spelling rather than on morphology. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

• "Partial anagrams"? - Jmabel | Talk 05:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

My intention is "Making Little Words From Big Words" is being used in a word puzzle context / competition, what little words can you make from a big word. A big word for example is Christmas, little words (subset) that can be created (permutations) include mass, mast, am, rim, miss, Christ etc. etc. Basically you are creating numerous "partial anagrams" and that is the word I am looking for? DiscoverIT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.215.202 (talk) 14:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

How about calling them "hypograms"? —Tamfang (talk) 19:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

How many Czars?

Another user on another page said that she thought that "Czar" has the most spelling variations of any four character word using the Latin alphabet where all spellings mean the same thing. True or false? apologies to User:Deliriousandlost for stealing her question without permission. SpinningSpark 19:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

To give a completely uninformed opinion, it would largely depend on when you draw the line regarding entry requirements (and dialects?). Most words have a variety of historic spellings, though, if these are discounted as too obscure, some sort of transliteration is likely to give you quite a few, and Czar could be up there with the best, I don't really know. - Jarry1250 ^{[ In the UK? Sign the petition! ]} 20:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

And what do you mean by "the same thing"? There is the czar of Russia, and a drug czar, and they aren't really the same... Adam Bishop (talk) 21:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

OP means Tsar, Tzar, Csar and Czar all mean the same thing. Vimescarrot (talk) 22:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Tsar, Tzar, Csar, and Czar are all in current modern use (as much as in referring to to the past rulers), are all four characters, all have the same meaning, none are slang, all make use of the Latin alphabet (the Russian Царь is also 4 characters in the Cyrillic alphabet), and all are interchangeably used in other languages that use the Latin aphabet though different languages have their own preferred spellings. The preferred spelling in Spanish and Italian is Zar, Tsaar in Nederlands (though if part of a proper name is not changed from Tzar), and Tsaari in Finnish. King is a similar title and was used in Russia for a time but has word has comperable words in other languages of the Latin alphabet, most notably Rex in Latin and Roi in French. The Tsar of Russia and a drug czar are both rulers of their respective worlds. Words such as "read", "hear", and "tear" have alternate spellings with the same pronunciation, but have different meanings, and do not transcend English useage of the Latin alphabet. This came from the signature "Lord Spongefrog (I am the Czar of all Russias!)" that is used by User:Spongefrog. I mentioned this to Lord Spongefrog as something quirky to ponder as a distraction to a somewhat trying RfA, asking why if he is the ruler of Russia he is using the spelling most commonly used in American English. I never thought it would end up here. delirious & lost ☯ ^TALK 05:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I can't find any reference that csar is a valid spelling. The OED, Merriam-Webster online, and reference.com give czar, tsar, and tzar, and the OED also gives zarr, czaar, czarr, and ksar, which still gives 7 possibilities. For yogurt the OED gives yoghurd, yogourt, yahourt, yaghourt, yogurd, yoghourt, yooghort, yughard, yughurt, yohourth, yogurt, and yoghurt (12 spellings); however some of these spellings are rare or obsolete. The greatest variation seems to be with middle eastern and south Asian languages; the OED also has 9 spellings for purdah, 6 for jinn, and 5 for niqab.--Lesleyhood (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

See transliteration. BrainyBabe (talk) 08:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

'Honeypot' in German?

Hello. Is there an equivalent term in German for the term 'honeypot'? The use in this context is a tourist area that has become crowded. Are any of the terms "ein Honigbecher" or "ein Honigglas" used? Thanks in advance. --138.251.224.160 (talk) 20:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

None of the "honey" compounds work in German. There is the expression Massentourismus, but this is a generic term referring to the "tourism of the masses" and not the specific honeypots where they congregate. I am not aware of any proper term for such a magnet. Ooops, actually, Tourismus Magnet gets 60k hits, so it seems to be an option. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot :-) --138.251.224.160 (talk) 22:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Given the "underground" definition,[1] "a tourist area that has become crowded" sounds pretty funny. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I was only familiar with the "underground" definition until this thread. And last night I saw an episode of Drawn Together dubbed into German where the "underground" meaning of "honeypot" was translated with Honigdöschen. But that's not an established slang word of German, just a nonce word (which actually makes it funnier in German than in English). +Angr 16:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The only definition of "honeypot" I was aware of until recently was one not on that list. My former partner is from the North, and up there in the tundra you have to collect your urine and feces for pickup every day since there are no sewers or septic tanks. The pail you collect it in is the honeypot, and the truck that picks them up each day is the honey wagon. --NellieBly (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The one related to honeywagons and honeydippers was the one I thought of at first as well. It was mentioned in the Wiktionary entry but has been removed to the talk page as unverified. Rmhermen (talk) 21:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Given that ironic definition, if a spouse calls their mate "Honey", it might not be a compliment. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

October 27

Rolling Rs

I am unclear about what rolling Rs involves. If I can pronounce the words "Arthur" or "Rupert" correctly, does than mean I can roll my Rs? Or is rolling Rs more than this? 89.240.47.104 (talk) 00:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

There are a couple of things it can mean.

The way we used it when I was little and we played at making noises, was to describe the rolled r. If you visit that article, you'll see sound sample in the box on the right. Click on that to hear it. You make it by positioning your tongue and breathing out in a way that makes your tongue vibrate against the roof of your mouth. Sometimes people use them when they're speaking in a really over-the-top way: it sounds a bit like a cat purring. It's the rolled R used in Spanish.

When I was a bit older, I also heard it used to describe the R in French, but that isn't really the same thing. The French R is in your throat. 86.144.144.110 (talk) 00:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

86.144.144.110's comment is just right. "rolling your R" refers to the alveolar trill, the most prominent example is probably Spanish (in words like perro). It's formed when the body of your tongue is raised up a bit and held stiff, but the tip of your tongue is kept limp, so when air goes past it the tip of your tongue flaps back and forth against the part of your mouth that's right behind your upper teeth. A lot of people, myself included, can't do it. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The way I tend to think of it is more of a rapid-fire "d" sound rather than anything related to the "r" in English. I prefer [2] as an example of rolled r's, since it's the only word I can think of that actually uses that twice. The French "r" was best described by Dave Barry as "trying to dislodge a live eel from your esophagus" and can be found at this article. Québécois apparently sometimes uses the "rolled" variant, and at least according to our article it was historically correct. SDY (talk) 01:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that anyone rolls their R's any more prominently than the Scots. In Spanish there is the single-R which is lightly trilled, maybe kind of the way Indians say it; and the double-R, which is strongly trilled or rolled, and in some Spanish-English dictionaries is equated to the Scottish R. Just as the strong "j" and "g" are compared to the Scottish "ch" in words like "loch". Which makes you wonder why there is this apparent crossover in Scottish and Spanish, but that's another story. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The Polish word rabarbar ("rhubarb") is even better for practicing the alveolar trill. All Rs are rolled in Polish and this word contains three of them. Kpalion 194.39.218.10 (talk) 08:36, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Audio sample for rabarbar at Forvo. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:43, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

In Spanish, and possibly in Scots, the position of the 'r' in the word will affect its pronunciation. An initial 'r' will be rolled much more than an 'r' within the word. Thus the final 'r' in Arthur will be less rolled that the initial 'r' in Rupert. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 09:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Welsh pronunciation

I have a couple of questions about the pronunciation of Manawydan and Rhongomyniad in Welsh. For Manawydan, is the combination 'awy' the diphthong 'aw' followed by the obscure 'y' (schwa), or something else? Is there a general rule for the pronunciation of 'Vwy' combinations in Welsh, where 'V' stands for a vowel? And for Rhongomyniad, is the 'g' pronounced? I understand that 'g' is sometimes pronounced in the 'ng' combinations, and sometimes not. I am looking for the pronunciation in modern formal Welsh. --Iceager (talk) 06:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I would read 'Manawydan' as 'mana-wydan', so with a rising 'wy' diphthong (or alternatively, with semivowel 'w' and the raised pronunciation of 'y'). And there is no letter 'g' in 'Rhongomyniad': there is only the letter 'ng'. (I am not a native Welsh speaker however). --ColinFine (talk) 08:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

But note that Welsh does also have sequences of N + G, e.g. Bangor is B-A-N-G-O-R, not B-A-Ng-O-R. +Angr 16:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

As Manawydan is closely associated with Manaw (Isle of Man), I strongly suspect that the W goes with the A and not with the Y. Also, the Excalibur article says that the first element of Rhongomyniad is Ron, so this suggests that in this case the N and the G are separate. Ehrenkater (talk) 23:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions so far. At least one on-line reference[3] lists the English pronunciation as 'man-uh-wuh-dan' or /ˌmænəˈwʌdæn/. On the one hand, the syllabification suggests that the 'w' goes with the 'y'. On the other hand, I've read that 'y' is always clear (a high front vocoid) rather than obscure (a schwa) in the diphthong 'wy', as in tywyllwch, so the pronunciation 'man-uh-wuh-dan' suggests that the 'y' is a schwa, i.e., it doesn't go with the 'w'. Given that an Anglicized pronunciation will tend to reflect the vowel qualities more than the original syllabification of Welsh, the latter seems the better explanation. I'd like to be sure that they were working with the correct original Welsh pronunciation in the first place, though.

I also saw that Rhongomyniad is also called Ron (which may be the first element), which is why I'm asking the question. --Iceager (talk) 01:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I've discovered that "Rhon Gomyniad" gets a fair number of hits. Unless this is just a popular mistake, this strongly suggests that the 'g' is indeed pronounced. --Iceager (talk) 10:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Comic

In comics, when a character's speech bubble says simply "?" or "!", what is the character actually saying? jc iindyysgvxc (my contributions) 07:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

[Huh] ? [Oh, %#@!%] ! DOR (HK) (talk) 08:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

As far as anyone can tell, they're not saying anything. But it might be way of indicating they're expressing doubt or lack of comprehension (?), or something like amazement (!), in their facial expression, which might be relatively hard to draw. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:02, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The responses "Huh?" and "Hah!" seem to fit. I'm not so sure it's because of difficulty drawing facial expressions, but maybe it's because comics are drawn with space for the speech balloons, and you need to put something there... and a mere punctuation mark is funnier than a word. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

• I always take it to mean that the character would say something like "Huh?" or "Hah!" but actually is speechless. Incidentally, there used to be an entry in the Guinness Book of World Records for "shortest correspondence". The author of a new novel (I forget who, maybe Victor Hugo) wrote to his publisher to ask how it was selling. His letter read: "?" And the publisher conveyed the good news by answering: "!" --Anonymous, 23:18 UTC, October 28, 2009.

• He's "saying" it in his head and/or with his expression, and the punctuation mark merely punctuates it. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, it was Hugo -- I should have followed my own link to confirm it. --Anon, 23:20 UTC.

• Yes, it was Hugo, and it was his novel Les Miserables, the only one of his novels I have read. JIP | Talk 21:17, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I would like to agree with Jack, as comics don't always automatically come with speech balloons. The artist usually has to manually put them there and in this case they are probably there to convey something which could be more difficult to convey using a static image - i.e. a facial expression, or to add some 'flavour' to the existing image. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 22:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes even in animated cartoons. Go to about 6:15 of this one:[4] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:49, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Cultural differences make this question impossible to answer universally. In the UK, "Huh" is a rare equivalent to "?", with perhaps "Eh?" or "What the...?" etc. More fundamentally, I think that the questioner has got the wrong end of the stick here - the symbols are being used by the cartoonist because they want to avoid using a word. Choosing one to replace the symbol is the reader's interpretation, and that's what the artist wants in the first place. --Dweller (talk) 16:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I remember thinking characters were actually saying "gasp" when the dialogue boxes said *gasp*. So when my mother one day showed me she'd made a pie for dessert that night, I said "gasp." She thought it was pretty funny, but it could've easily come off as sarcastic. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 17:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

This is an example of the written word driving the spoken word, instead of the other way around. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:23, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

... Indeterminate (talk) 06:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I wondered about this a great deal as a child. But then later I realised I had been taking things too literally, and not treating comics as fictional enough to allow me to suspend disbelief. I knew it wasn't possible to say "!" or "?" without actually saying any words before that, but I didn't know it wasn't supposed to. This reminds me of some Finnish comic I once read (I forget which comic), where some man's wife is saying to him: Blah, blah, blah.... blah, blah, blah... do you have anything to say for yourself? and the man replies: Yes, I do. What does "blah" mean? JIP | Talk 21:17, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Chinese

Planning a machine translator, I'm looking for a set of three Chinese words (each of which can also be an "empty" word) which fulfill all of the following five conditions:

Let's mark those words by <X>, <Y>, <Z>, and let's assume that each bold English word below - represents the parallel chinese phrase/term. So:

1. The chinese sentence: I try <X> go, means (in free English): "I try to go".
2. The chinese sentence: I know <Y> he comes, means (in free English): "I know that he comes".
3. The chinese sentence: I <Z> <X> sleep, means (in free English): "I want to sleep".
4. The chinese sentence: I <Z> <X> he comes, means (in free English): "I want him to come".
5. The chinese sentence: I <Z> <Y> he comes, means (in free English): "I think that he comes".

HOOTmag (talk) 10:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Infinitive "to" (your X) and complementizer "that" (your Y) do not really exist. These sentences would literally be said 我试着去 "I try go", 我知道他来了 "I know he comes", etc. Your Z would be 想 xiǎng, which can be translated as both "want" and "think". 我想睡个觉 = "I want to have a sleep", and 我想他来了 = "I think he's coming". (for "I want him to come" it would have to be a little different, maybe literally "I hope he comes"). rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 13:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Would the following analysis be correct (in most of the cases):

Chinese doesn't have one single word for "want", and doesn't have a word meaning "think" only. Instead, it has 想 (which means something like: "feel that...", or "feel like..."), and it also has 希望 (which means something like: "hope that..."), so that:

• "I think that..." is simply "I feel that..."
• "I want to...", is simply "I feel like...";
• "I want it to...", is simply "I hope that it...".

HOOTmag (talk) 16:51, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Not really. 想 does mean 'want' (only with a verb complement--"I want to do something"). 要 yào also means 'want', and can be used with nouns as well as verbs (as in 我要你的！ "I want you!"), and they can be combined to 想要 which has more or less the same usage. Neither one can mean 'want' with a sentential complement, though (as in "I want him to do something"), which is why I suggested 希望 (a native speaker might be able to offer a better translation. With a sentential complement, 想 is more like 'think' (我想他来了 "I think he's coming") and 要 is more like tell or force, although it can also mean 'want' in the right context. (我要他来 could be translated as "I want him to come", but the connotation is that you actually have the power to make him come, so it can be more l ike a command.) rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Does Chinese make any distinction between "I think that (you're drunk)" and "I feel that (you're drunk)"? HOOTmag (talk) 17:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Both would probably use 觉得 (我觉得你很老), which has more of a subjective/"feelings" connotations. Of course, there are other ways to get around saying it (changing the sentence structure a little rather than swapping words—for example, now that you've changed the sentence to "I think you're drunk", that could be said as 看来，你醉了 "it looks like you're drunk"), or 想 might be used in some other contexts. Unfortunately, there is rarely any one-to-one correspondence between Chinese and English words; they can be translated to and fro in many different ways. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

What's the sematical difference between 我想他来了, and 我觉得他来了, and 我覺得他来了 ?

Similarly, what's the sematical difference between 我想你很老, and 我觉得你很老, and 我覺得你很老 ?

HOOTmag (talk) 18:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

觉得 and 覺得 are exactly the same thing (one is in simplified characters, the other in traditional characters). 想 is more unmarked and is most often used for thinking about something factual (ie, "I think he's coming"), whereas 觉得 can be used in subjective/opinion situations (as in "I think that movie is really great"), although it still can be used for non-opinion things (as in “他今天晚上来吗？” “我觉得吧” -- "is he coming tonight?" "I think so"). But as always, the way you'd translate each one depends a lot on the context. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 19:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

So, "I think/feel that" (when referring to something factual), and "I want to", are (or can be) generally said the same way in Chinese, right? HOOTmag (talk) 20:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

No, that's an overgeneralization. The word 想 has both of those meanings, but in different sentential contexts—and it is far from being the only word that can express these, either. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Can you examplify what you mean by: "in different sentential contexts"? i.e.

Can you think of contexts in which 想 shouldn't be used for "I want to"?

Can you think of contexts in which 想 shouldn't be used for "I think that" - even when thinking about something factual?

HOOTmag (talk) 22:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

It's just like I said--the grammatical context (specifically, the complement that follows 想) helps determine how you would translate it. In a sentence where it's followed directly by a verb (as in 我想吃饭 "i want to eat"), it would almost always mean "want to...". In a sentence where it's followed by a full close (as in 我想他来了, "I think he's coming", and others), it would almost always mean "think that..." rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

So my original theory had been correct! Note that I'd asked about whether "I think/feel that" (when referring to something factual), and "I want to", are (or can be) generally said the same way in Chinese. You've just approved of my theory, providing that the word "generally" in my original theory is replaced by "almost always". Ok, that's what I'd meant by "generally"! HOOTmag (talk) 23:05, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

No, like I said, your idea was an overgeneralization. The 想 examples just from one word out of many different words that can be used to express this, and more importantly, they don't show that the two things are being said "in the same way"—they may sometimes use some of the same words, but the grammar is quite different. And this is just one, somewhat forced, example of overlap; in reality, there are many many other ways to say these things and get around it. There certainly is no "generally" or "almost always"; it's more like "sometimes, if at all". It is fine to observe that 想 can be translated in several different ways, but jumping from there to saying "Chinese generally doesn't make a distinction between 'think that' and 'want to'" is too much of a leap. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 23:19, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

You don't quote me correctly! Again, I'd asked about whether

"I think/feel that" (when referring to something factual), and "I want to", are (or can be) generally said the same way in Chinese".

Note that:

• By saying "or can be", I'd just meant that 想 is not the only possible word, and that if one chooses other words - then the phrase "I think/feel that" (even when referring to something factual), and the phrase "I want to", aren't said the same way in Chinese. However, these two phrases can be said the same way - i.e. providing that one chooses to use the word 想.
• By saying "the same way" I'd only referred to the Chinese phrase which means "I want to" and to the Chinese phrase which means "I think/feel that". However, I did not refer to the grammar, which of course is different, because "I want to" must be followed by a verb, whereas "I think/feel that" must be followed by a clause.

Again, my original theory had been as follows: If I choose to base the following phrases on the word 想, then the phrase "I want to" (which of course must be followed by a verb, as it must be so in English as well), and the phrase "I think/feel that" (which of course must be followed by a clause, as it must be so in English as well, the clause being about "something factual" as you had put it), are generally (i.e. "almost always" as you had put it) translated into Chinese by the same words (i.e. by 我想). What's wrong with that? If that's wrong then I'm still waiting for refuting examples.

HOOTmag (talk) 00:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

You're taking things backwards. I said that, in given circumstances, 想 is almost always translated as one or the other—not that those phrases are almost always translated as 想. Things do not go both ways. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 00:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, you don't quote me correctly! When did I say that those phrases are almost always translated as 想? I'd just said that "in given circumstances" (as you had put it, or in my words: when the phrase "I think/feel that" is followed by a clause about "something factual" as you had put it), both the phrase: "I want to" (which of course must be followed by a verb, as it must be so in English as well), and the phrase: "I think/feel that" (which of course must be followed by a clause, as it must be so in English as well), are (or can be) almost always translated as 我想 (why just "are or can be"? because the word 想 is not the only possible word for expressing the phrase "I want to" and the phrase "I think\feel that" followed by a clause about "something factual" as you had put it). Again, I don't refer to the grammar but rather to the very phrases mentioned above only. If you still think that I'm wrong, then please give me refuting examples which show that it's not "almost always" the case, i.e.

• Give an example in which "I want to" (followed by a verb) can't be translated as 我想.
• Or: give an example in which "I think/feel that" (followed by a clause about "something factual") can't be translated as 我想.

HOOTmag (talk) 00:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Hebrew transliteration

I know we've got articles that give the various schemes for transliterating Hebrew into the Roman alphabet, but how about the other way? For instance Modern Hebrew has several letters for the same sound (t, s, etc) so which one would you choose? More generally, are there established conventions for transliterating English or other names, places etc into the Hebrew alphabet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.1.77 (talk) 11:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Hebraization of English may help. --Lesleyhood (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes.

Hence, as for the first OP's question:

• k/q (when sounded, i.e. excluding the 'k' in "know" etc.) are always transcribed ק.
• s (when sounded, i.e. excluding the 's' in "island" etc.) are always transcribed ס (for the "s" in "us" etc.) or ז (for the "s" in "use" etc.) or ש (for the "s" in "sure" etc.) or 'ז (for the "s" in "usual" etc.).
• t (when sounded, i.e. excluding the 't' in "castle" etc.) are always transcribed ט.
• c (when sounded like 'k' or like 's') - see above for k and for s.

As to the second OP's question: No difference between Hebrew, Russian, Greek, etc. I.E. there are established conventions in many cases, mainly for well-known names (e.g. Paris, London, Moscow, Frankfurt, Jesus, Albert, William, James, Clinton), but when the name is unfamiliar and contains new unfamiliar consonants/vowels, then there can't be any "established conventions". Instead, the IPA method (rather than the Hebrew alphabet) is recommended, just as in Russian, Greek, etc.

HOOTmag (talk) 18:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Could you clarify what you mean by the "IPA method"? (also by the way I found the Hebraization of English article very confusing!) --rossb (talk) 12:35, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

IPA. HOOTmag (talk) 13:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes I know what IPA is. But what has it to do with transliteration from English into Hebrew? --rossb (talk) 13:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

When transcribing from English, the Hebrew writer would usually use the regular method (in Hebrew alphabet) as described above. However, when transcribing into Hebrew from any "exotic" language whose words are written in an "unfamiliar" alphabet and contain unfamiliar consonants/vowels, then using the Hebrew alphabet is not recommended, especially when one wishes to be precise, e.g. in professional literature (mainly in linguistics), so the Hebrew (professional) writer is likely to use the IPA alphabet for the specific foreign word. HOOTmag (talk) 13:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Fixing errors

I'm a user from Argentina and I know english well enough as to know how to read and write, and talk or write articles as I may need. However, as it isn't my native languaje, my writing is hardly as "nice" as it should be if I intend to write real good articles. Can you suggest me some web site where I can place a big text and detect errors with it, such as wrongly written words or expresions in an incorrect gramatical order? I know it won't be enough just by itself, but it would be helpful at some degree. MBelgrano (talk) 12:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Microsoft Word / OpenOffice automatically does grammar-checking, although it is often wrong. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 14:54, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

In my own experience the grammar checker in Word is very unreliable.

Our article on grammar checkers has a few links at the end. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:05, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

@MBelgrano: actually, since this is a wiki, you have a much better option that using a grammar checker. Wikipedia is full of native English speakers, all of whom will do a better job than a grammar checker. If you make friends with a good collaborator (or try placing requests at WP:Editor assistance or the Copyeditors' guild), then you could write your proposed articles/additions in your userspace--at a page like User:MBelgrano/Sandbox--and then have a native speaker look over it before you move it to the main article. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I thought it was Joel Spolsky who wrote once that his hypothesis was that the grammar checker of Word was so bad that nobody has ever used it and that it exists only in order to be a bullet point on a marketer's product feature list. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I find it to be useful as a reminder, but don't take it on blind faith. There is no substitute for already knowing how to use English reasonably well. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

There are websites where you can find an English-speaking e-mail pen pal who could agree to correct your messages. When I was learning Spanish, I had a Spanish-speaking e-mail pen pal, and I once served as an pen pal for a Russian learning English. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, MBelgrano writes better English than do a lot of native-English speakers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

http://lang-8.com/ ZS 03:22, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Filmology

The Wiktionary entry clearly states what a filmology is: "A 1950s–60s movement of theoretical study relating to film." However, in many of our articles (and probably elsewhere), the term is used as a synonym for "filmography". I'd be happy to hear your opinion on whether such usage is acceptable as a new contemporary meaning, or whether it should be disregarded as a misnomer. decltype (talk) 16:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks like it's being used incorrectly. It wouldn't be hard to clean up; based on this search, the word only appears in 57 articles and some of them are ones where it's used correctly, so there aren't a whole lot of replacements that would need to be made. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

-ology words are often bandied around incorrectly. The worst offender is the use of "methodology" instead of simply writing "method". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, like 'scientology' which was first coined as a term akin to "pseudoscience", but which is now used ... On second thought, I retract that objection. :) --Pykk (talk) 23:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Along the same lines is one of my pet peeves, "usage" vs. "use". rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Medial consonant clusters in Spanish

How many medial consonant clusters has the Spanish language? --88.77.252.209 (talk) 18:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Anunciar and avanzar have the same medial consonant cluster, but not anunciar and blanco. --88.77.252.209 (talk) 18:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I imagine quite a few. Just off the top of my head, s+nasal is acceptable (as in durazno, Porteño Spanish), as is stop+liquid (abreza), and probably many others. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 18:24, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I want a list of all medial consonant clusters in the Spanish language. --88.77.252.209 (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The study of what sounds may cluster in a language is called phonotactics (in Spanish, fonotáctica). So, you might be able to find a list of possible consonant clusters if you google "spanish phonotactics". rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 21:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

October 28

Welsh language

last week i made a journey to Swansea onto Llandovery. my schoolboy memory told me to say the double l as an 'f' which was markedly corrected by the station master as 'l'. the station Swansea was in south Wales about 80 miles south of Llandovery. The town itself had a Welsh spelling i could not pronounce. Is the pronunciation dependent upon region or its Welsh spelling? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slimeylimey09 (talk • contribs) 17:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The Welsh double l is neither the /f/ sound nor the /l/ sound, so both you and the station master were wrong. It's a voiceless alveolar lateral fricative, and an audio file of the sound can be found in that article. Here is a blog entry by phonetician John C. Wells describing how he would teach people to make the sound; it's worth a read. (It occurs to me, however, that the station master was right in a sense: Llandovery is the English name of the town, not the Welsh name – which is Llanymddyfri – and the English name of course uses only sounds found in English, so it begins with the usual English /l/ sound.) +Angr 17:47, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

i half understand that it is an effortless use of my voice to pronounce the 'll' sound and to relate the 'single phonetic segment' is like relating Beethoven or the Beatles to a sheet of music(my analogy). However i am still left with the original query of saying the original spelling of the town without incurring the wrath of the native Welsh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.234.72 (talk) 19:28, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. 'Llandovery' is an English attempt to approximate the sound of the Welsh name llanymddyfri, but it's not very close to it - in particular it omits a syllable. If you're wanting an indication of how to pronounce the Welsh, it would be /ɬanəm'ðəvri/, or in non-IPA terms 'llan-um-THE-vree' where the 'll' is as described by Angr above, 'um' is like - um - you know, 'the' is just like the English word 'the' when it isn't stressed (i.e. not like 'thee') - though it is the stressed syllable in this Welsh name. If that helps. --ColinFine (talk) 22:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

It seems here are two issues. First, the issue whether the 'l' can be a different consonant. In a language analogy, the answer seems, yes; 'l' (a lateral consonant) is usually affected by adjacent vowels (i.e. as a lateral approximants or even for something else). However, a segment of 'l' (double ‘l’) remains as a single phoneme 'l' and is usually a 'clear l' at a word initial (as an alveolar lateral fricative). To the second issue, the answer is again, yes. That is, the sound of “l” can still be varied based on adjacent vowels if the vowels are back vowels (or pronounced as such). In such case, the 'l' is 'dark' (a velarised alveolar lateral fricative). In Welsh, these phenomena seem like the same. Is this correct?--Mihkaw napéw (talk) 03:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

that is getting me there, thank you. listening to the sound bite the phonetic segment sounds like'Ahhh' which is similar to the 'l' in belt. the final question is the acceptable use or not of the English of the town llanymddyfri, and whether to use the English pronunciation when talking to the station master. thanks.Slimeylimey09 (talk) 07:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Mihkaw napéw's comments, the Welsh 'll', pronounced [ɬ], is certainly a different phoneme from the 'l'. Acoustically, it's clearly a fricative, so much so that speakers of languages that don't have the phoneme always use fricatives or fricative and lateral combinations to approximate it. One should not confuse it with the issue of a velarized (i.e. 'dark') 'l', which has a similar symbol, [ɫ]. Most varieties of English use both 'clear l' and 'dark l' sounds, but they are the same phoneme pronounced in different environments. Welsh 'l' and 'll' are distinct phonemes, where the former corresponds to the sound in English and the latter is non-existent in English and most languages.

By the way, the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary lists [læn'dʌv(ə)ɹi] as the pronunciation of the English name 'Llandovery', with an optional pronunciation where the [l] is pronounced [ɬ]. Since [ɬ] is not a native phoneme in English, however, this latter advice strikes me as odd, much like pronouncing 'Munich' with a German [ç] or [x] when 'Munich' is itself the English version of 'München' and shouldn't be pronounced with foreign sounds anyway. So my advice is, pronounce the English name 'Llandovery' as in English and the Welsh name 'Llanymddyfri' as in Welsh, to the best of your ability. --Iceager (talk) 08:46, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I imagine a fair proportion of the people who are likely to talk about Llandovery on a daily basis have no difficulty in producing a [ɬ], and are accustomed to doing so in other town names that begin with Llan- where there is no English name distinct from the Welsh name (Llandeilo, Llandudno, Llandysul, Llanelli, Llanfair Caereinion, Llanfairfechan, Llanfyllin, Llangefni, Llangollen, Llanidloes, Llanrwst, Llantrisant, Llanybydder, etc.). I bet for a lot of people in Wales, using [ɬ] in Llandovery seems perfectly normal, even though it isn't the Welsh form of the town's name. +Angr 10:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree - use the Welsh pronunciation of "ll" or you'll start upsetting people. Alansplodge (talk) 02:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

October 29

"Cntr + Alt + Del situation"

Is "Cntr + Alt + Del" also used as idiom or something like that? I have recent found in a magazine a term called "Cntr + Alt + Del situation". What is the meaning of "Cntr + Alt + Del situation"? --Waterrocket (talk) 04:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

On Windows PCs, Ctrl+Alt+Del is the combination of keystrokes you use to get out of the (frequent) situation when a piece of software hangs up on you and won't respond. So I guess it could be used in a metaphorical sense to mean a situation where you're not getting anywhere and need to get out of it, or something like that. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 06:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

We have an article on it. F (talk) 09:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I have found the ref. Here it is [5]. The paragraph is:

Indian firms expanded capacity, market footprint, acquired firms in high-cost regimes, increased exports as a component of the sales and profit, salaries and wages rocketed and there was an opportunity for every stakeholder at seemingly no risk. All and sundry began to think of themselves as world-beaters. Now that they have been beaten by the world it is time to reset the approach to avoid a Ctrl-Alt-Del situation.

What does "Now that they have been beaten by the world it is time to reset the approach to avoid a Ctrl-Alt-Del situation" mean here? --Waterrocket (talk) 11:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I suppose it means "to avoid having to scrap everything and start over again from scratch". +Angr 11:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Ctrl-Alt-Delete (on Dos/Windows at least) is a soft reboot. Given that the term reboot has now been applied to a number of non-computer contexts to metaphorically refer to "starting anew", that interpretation is likely correct. -- 128.104.112.149 (talk) 22:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Short latin phrase

How would one say "I still believe [an idea]" in Latin? Thanks, --S.dedalus (talk) 06:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

credo , i believe (!?) is the verb. the conjugation i forget —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slimeylimey09 (talk • contribs) 07:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Credo is correct for "I believe". For "still", it depends whether you mean "I continue to believe in spite of opposition; I believe nevertheless" or "I started believing in the past and continue to believe now". The former is Tamen credo; the latter is Adhuc credo or more emphatically Etiam credo. +Angr 07:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Tamen is I believe normally placed second in the sentence, so Credo tamen might be a better order. --rossb (talk)

Hmm, my Latin grammar says it is "often postpositive", which suggests that at least as often, it isn't. +Angr 07:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I thought postpositive meant that it was second in the sentence? Falconus^{p t c} 11:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

It does; my point is that my grammar books says tamen is only often postpositive, not always postpositive. +Angr 11:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Lofty Latin

"Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur" or "Quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur." Which is correct, or are both wrong? SDY (talk) 08:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Videtur. +Angr 10:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I originally learned it the other way, started seeing variants, and wasn't real sure. SDY (talk) 11:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

This goes beyond what was originally asked, but what is the source of this quotation? Surely not Classical, with its odd mix of moods (should be either sit ... videatur or, better, est ... videtur), and the fact that 'dictum sit' is used instead of 'dicitur' or 'dicatur'?Maid Marion (talk) 16:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the mix of moods is a problem, it's "whatever may be said (subjunctive) in Latin seems (indicative) lofty". But you're right about dictum sit rather than dicatur, and I have my doubts about altum meaning lofty in the metaphorical sense. +Angr 16:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't have any reference books by me, but altum 'feels' fine to me in the sense of lofty or elevated. However, despite the title of the original question, I don't think that is what it is intended to mean in this strange quotation - I would guess that whoever cobbled these words together probably intended 'profound'. Maid Marion (talk) 17:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I've always heard it translated as "profound". --Tango (talk) 17:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The Oxford Latin Dictionary includes among the definitions of altus: "Rising above the common level, high, elevated, noble" and "Of deep wisdom, penetrating, profound". So that part's okay. And if we translate it "Whatever has been said in Latin" rather than "Whatever is said", then the tense of dictum sit is okay too. +Angr 19:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

FWLIW: A cursory Google search for all but the last word leads to a recent rash of unsourced blog entries, but also a BBC citation (probably word-play) as: "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur. Or 'Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.' " http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A218882 —— Shakescene (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

(undent) I mostly tend to translate "altum" as lofty since that's the way the root is used in English (q.v. altitude), whereas "profound" usually implies metaphorical depth. The entire point of the statement is that dropping these random pithy sayings of Latin tends to be done for fairly shallow reasons, so saying that it sounds profound may be misleading. The statement (obviously) isn't mine, so who knows what the originator was thinking. SDY (talk) 00:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I thought it came from Erasmus, but I have no evidence for that. (Nor does Google.) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/ in the Piedmontese language

So our article on the Piedmontese language states:

Some of the most relevant characteristics of the Piedmontese language are: [...] 6. The absence of the voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/ (as in sheep), for which an alveolar S sound (as in sun) is usually substituted. [...]

Whereas our article on the Lamborghini Countach says that "countach" is pronounced [kunˈtɑʃ] in the Piedmontese language (note the presence of the /ʃ/ sound). So, where's the error? Thanks! --Belchman (talk) 15:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know the etymology of "countach", but perhaps what the first article is trying to say is that where /S/ occurs in Italian (where it mostly comes from /sk/ + front vowel in Latin), Piedmontese has /s/ (e.g. the word for "science" starts with /S/ in Italian but - if my hypothesis is correct - /s/ in Piedmontese); Piedmontese might still have /S/ from other sources (such as loanwords from French?). +Angr 17:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I guess you're right. Thanks. --Belchman (talk) 18:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

is Piedmont not Italian, and sheep and sun English words? how can you make a comparison in their pronunciation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.0.125 (talk) 18:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The consonants are the same, that's how. Marco polo (talk) 22:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

As the phonations of Latin alphabet also slightly differ in languages, i think we have to see the IPA of the language first in order to know whether the phonetic transcription is correct. However, this alone cannot solve the problems.

For example, names like Holstein and Rothstein represent as /hɔlʃtain/ and /rɒθstain/ in the IPA accordingly, though the IPA /ʃ/ is the phoneme of ‘sh’ in the phonetic transcription. However, as to their environment, the IPA of both cases seem correct, i.e. the grapheme ‘s’ follows a back vowel and possibly a dark ‘l’ on the first case whereas the latter is an interdental fricatives.

That is, depending on the environment, a substitution of /s/ for voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/ or vise versa is possible. On the transcription of /ʃ/ in [kunˈtɑʃ], it does not seem correct as to its environment (an affricatives?). Nevill Fernando (talk) 02:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Where do you get those transcriptions for 'Holstein' and 'Rothstein'. Since you write 'θ', you are presumably referring to the English pronunciations rather than German ones: I would say that 's' and 'ʃ' are in variation in English for both those words, depending partly on how familiar the speaker is with German. --ColinFine (talk) 08:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Ares I-X

How is "Ares I-X" pronounced? I don't watch TV and the radio hasn't mentioned the flight yet, so I haven't heard it spoken. Is it "air-eez i eks"? No IPA, please. Dismas|^(talk) 17:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I would pronounce it "Ares One Eks". --Tango (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

That's how I've been pronouncing it in my head but if I get into a conversation about it, I'd rather not sound silly by using some other pronunciation when the other person has probably heard it in the news broadcasts. So, how do they say it on the news? Dismas|^(talk) 19:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

You can probably find out by listening to "America's Rockets (SD Podcast)" at feed://streaming.msfc.nasa.gov/podcast/ares/ARES_SD.xml.

-- Wavelength (talk) 19:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

BTW, it's "Ah-rees", not "Air-rees" - it's from the Greek name for Mars, not from the constellation. Grutness...wha? 21:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I for one have always pronounced the Greek god's name as "Air-ease", never "R-ease". +Angr 22:01, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

"Ah-rees" is probably technically correct, but "air-eez" would be the typical American pronunciation, at least. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Our article, Ares, says that in Modern Greek it is pronounced [ˈaris], that is a short 'a' (as in cat) and the 's' isn't voiced (ie. it's an 's' sound not a 'z' sound). That is nothing like how I would have pronounced it (which would have been roughly the same as the constellation), but we live and learn! --Tango (talk) 01:17, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to follow the Modern Greek pronunciation...the name "Ares" was probably imported into English (or at least intermediate languages like Latin) before Modern Greek as it exists now was around anyway. Going by the Ancient Greek pronunciation makes a little more sense, but I feel like a word like "Ares" has been around long enough in English that the standard English pronunciation can be considered "correct." -Elmer Clark (talk) 05:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

How would one distinguish between Ares and Aries (the Ram/constellation/astronomical/astrological term)? -- JackofOz (talk) 10:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

By spelling them out: They're normally homonyms. Though in conservative RP, "Aries" has three syllables ("AIR-i-eez"). (And yes, "Ares" as the god of war has long been assimilated into English.) kwami (talk) 10:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

For this and probably most "how do you pronounce this?" questions, one site I have found to be useful is http://howjsay.com/ . Make sure your computer has speakers. 20.137.18.50 (talk) 16:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

My old Webster's (ca. 1960) gives the preferred with the "a" rhyming with the a in "ale", and the secondary as the "a" rhyming with the a in "care", which makes things interesting given that east coasters stretch that particular "a" out a bit while midwesterners would make it sound like a short "e". One thing I was suprised is that I thought "Aries", the ram, was a homophone. But my old book says it's "A-ri-ez", and incidentally with the same two alternative pronunciations fo the "a" as with "Ares". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:26, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure the original pronunciation of Aries had 3 syllables, but I've never heard anyone give it more than 2. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:21, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

The audio recording at http://ia331428.us.archive.org/0/items/AresQuarterlyProgressReport7/QPR7_512kb.mp4 (about 5 minutes 15 seconds)

uses the pronunciation [ˈɛriz wʌn ɛks] at about 0:55 and at about 2:10. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Kara

my wife has asked this question. she would like to know the correct pronunciation of her name Kara, in both Gaelic and English. her ancestry is American Irish, as in Kara Kennedy as in the daughter of the late Ted Kennedy( not a blood-line but similar nationality). In England invariably pronounced as in car-rah, but in America car(rot)a(spoken soft and shortly). the name has various origins including Russian and Vietanmese. what would be the Gaelic? though i will always call her by what she knows and what i've learned to say. thanks--Slimeylimey09 (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Cara in Irish Gaelic means "friend" but as far as I know it's never used as a name. It's a masculine noun anyway, so it definitely has nothing to do with the woman's name Kara. The "a" is pronounced about halfway between the "a" of "car" and the "a" of "cat". +Angr 19:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I thought of former actress Cara Williams, although that was a stage name. In any case, she pronounced it "care-uh". "caa-ruh" would be more like the east coast pronunciation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Kara in some Slavic languages means "black". There was the Karageorge dynasty in Yugoslavia. That was pronounced "kah-rah". -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 01:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Except that those Slavic languages don't actually use it, and in compounds it was borrowed from... see tr:Kara. No such user (talk) 08:11, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

A possible endonym is /Kɶrə/ or /Kaːrə/.

Alternatives are: /Kaːraː/ or /Kɶraː/. Is this correct? --Mihkaw napéw (talk) 04:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

in latin cara means dear one . Kara is also a derivative of Catherine. In Vietnamese Kara means friend. The accent is from New Jersey on the East Coast of the U.S.--91.125.80.207 (talk) 06:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

In what universe is kara, rather than bạn, the Vietnamese word for "friend"? 92.226.37.208 (talk) 07:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

In a parallel universe you don't live in. It's just the meaning not the actual word for. As my toddler would say "Bleh"--91.125.80.207 (talk) 07:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC) Kara

First name origins & meanings:

Latin: Dear Irish: Friend Italian: Beloved one Vietnamese: Precious Diamond or Dear Friend Greek: Pure Greek: Pure First name variations: Carah, Caralie, Careen, Canna, Carine, Carita, Carra, Karra, Caragh, Caera, Cara, Karan, Karen, Karyn, Kasia, Katja, Kasen, Kassia, Katoka, Katrien, Kaysa, Katarina, Katharine, Kate, Kathryn, Kathreen, Katheryn, Katrin, Kathy, Katie, Kate, Katina, Katrina, Karen, Karin, Karyn, Karan, Karon, Kari, Karrie, Karry, Karina, Caren, Carin, Caryn, Cari, Carrie, Carry, Cara, Katherine

Last name origins & meanings:

Indian (Gujarat): Hindu (Bhatia) name of unknown meaning. Polish: nickname from karać ‘to punish’. Czech, Slovak, and Hungarian: from a pet form of a personal name: Czech Karel, Slovak Karol, Hungarian Károly, vernacular forms of Carolus (see Charles). Czech: metonymic occupational name for a carter, from kára ‘hand cart’. Greek: see Caras. --Cookie8590 (talk) 08:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Did you get that from a first-name etymology or baby-name book (or website)? They always seem to copy each other's lists without attribution, and egregious errors are repeated as fact. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

As for Slavic languages, in Polish kara has several meanings. One is "punishment". Another is the feminine form of the adjective "black" but only in reference to a horse. It might be also the plural of karo, or diamonds (a suit of cards). It is never used as a personal name though. The only person of this name I ever heard of was the Turkish army general, Kara Mustafa. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:15, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if your wife predates the 1971 hit record "Kara, Kara" by Australian pop group New World. That was certainly pronounced "car-rah". Lyrics here[6]. Sorry - impudent question - a lady never tells! Interestingly, there was a small Australian warship called HMAS Kara Kara in WW2[7]. Perhaps it's a place name? Alansplodge (talk) 02:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

The things one reads on the Ref Desk. Yes, it was a place name - see County of Kara Kara, Shire of Kara Kara and Electoral district of Kara Kara and Borung. "Kara Kara" apparently means Gold Quartz in the local indigenous language. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

October 30

How does Admiral Masorin's name translate and is it Ukrainian?

How does Admiral Masorin's name translate and is it Ukrainian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.210.114.164 (talk) 01:58, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as he's born far away from Ukraine and the article doesn't mention any Ukrainian heritage I would think it's not. Rimush (talk) 10:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Ernestine

In the book I am reading there is a woman called Ernestine. Now I'd like to know how to pronounce that name. In my dictionary I couldn't find it. I found the pronunciation of Caroline, of Katharine and of Josephine–but that did not help me, because, according to my dictionary, Caroline rhymes with fine, Katharine rhymes with in and Josephine rhymes with seen. If there are different pronunciations of Ernestine in different countries, I’d like to know the British pronunciation, because the story is set in England. -- Irene1949 (talk) 11:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd be very surprised if it were not pronounced er-nəst-EEN. (Although, I suppose if one pron of Augustine is ə-GUS-tən, then Ernestine could be er-NES-tən. No, probably not.) -- JackofOz (talk) 11:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

They're not the most scientific places, but the baby-name sites seem to agree that it rhymes with seen, though they differ on whether the primary stress is on the first or last syllable (apparently it's from German, which doesn't help too much). Does anyone know an authoritative baby-name site? --Lesleyhood (talk) 13:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinions.

In German, Ernestine rhymes with the English word cleaner–and, Lesleyhood, I agree that that doesn't help much. -- Irene1949 (talk) 14:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The only time I've ever heard the name "Ernestine" pronounced was one of Lily Tomlin's characterizations, and she said it the way JackofOz indicates in his first sentence, above - except Lily said ER-nest-een, emphasizing the first syllable, as with Caroline, C/Katherine, and Josephine. Caroline is often, but not always, rhymed with "line", as in "Brookline". Sometimes it rhymes with "lynn", as in "Brooklyn", as C/Katherine does. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

You're probably right about the stress. In school I had to read My Love Must Wait, a book by Ernestine Hill, and my teacher always called her something between ER-nest-een and er-nest-EEN. I guess what I was implicitly denying (not that anyone suggested it) is that it's pronounced er-nest-EYE-n. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

To determine the apparent discrepancy between the various ways to pronounce "-ine", it might be necessary to study the word origins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I've met a person with this name. She pronounced it ER-nis-teen, rhyming with "seen" and with the same rhythm/stress pattern as Josephine. However, she's from the USA. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 23:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

My old Webster's (ca. 1960) says ER-nes-teen. It also has CAR-o-line or CAR-o-linn; KATH-er-in or KATH-rin; and JO-ze-pheen or jo-ze-PHEEN. The interesting part about the latter is the "z", since it's typically softened down to an "s". Hard telling why a mom would name her daughter Ernestine anyway, which is kind of a homely name; there are such better ones out there, like Britney, Courtney, etc. The "-ine" suffix is from French, and is shown with various pronunciations, so I think it has to be chalked as just another of those oddities about English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:19, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly ER-nes-teen in the UK at present but rarely encountered now. Alansplodge (talk) 02:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

It's one of those obsolete names, like Elmer, which probably ceased to be a popular name once Elmer Fudd became well-established. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

@ Baseball Bugs, you wrote: “Hard telling why a mom would name her daughter Ernestine anyway, which is kind of a homely name”–well, I think I can guess why the author of my book chose that name. I think that the title of the book–“The Importance of Being Ernestine”–is meant to be a parody on The Importance of Being Earnest , a comic play by Oscar Wilde. -- Irene1949 (talk) 16:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Some non-English names have their English exonyms and standards pronunciations. A good example is the names which have the ending ‘man’ in Europe (mostly in Germany) and in US. Because the letter ‘a’ does not represent the phoneme /a/ in English as in German language, the English exonym is /mæn/. I did not check the name origin, but it seems like such roots are neither of British nor of US English, other than the exonym /mæn/for ‘man’. I think, the names discussed above are just such analogy. Nevill Fernando (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC).

English - Meaning of "separatism"

This question isn't about other languajes but about english itself. It's not my native tongue, so some subtle details of it are unclear for me.

When I talk about a revolution of some centuries ago and/or the process that made a current country to get itself out from a larger empire and become a country on it's own, is it correct to denote such movement as "Separatism", or is that a loaded word? Does the word imply a taken position on whenever the process is considered legitimate or not, or is it a neutral one?. For example, the american war of independence and terrorist groups like ETA are completely different things, and from my perspective "separatism" sounds correct for the later but I'm not sure about the former. And if it is indeed a loaded word, wich other one should I use for denoting a process or intentions of gaining independence as a new country? I'm not sure about "Revolution" or "revolutionary" either, that sounds more correct being applied to a specific act than to long term things. But as I said, my knowledge of english is not complete. MBelgrano (talk) 12:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Separatism would be the right term. "Revolution" would be overthrow of the existing government. "Independence" typically pertains to a colony breaking away from the empire, so it's not quite the same thing as separatism or revolution, though it has some elements of both. The American Revolution was technically an independence movement, since it did not overthrow King George III in the process. The French Revolution was a revolution. Attempts to break Quebec away from Canada would be separatism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

There are the words Secession and Separatism (es:Secesión and es:Separatismo). The English articles appear to make the distinction that Separatism is the long-term movement and Secession is the goal or act. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:50, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

To add to the above, I believe separatism is neutral and general. The alternative not mentioned is nationalism: it implicitly refers to a "nation" (of which the Guardian style guide says "Do not use when you mean country or state: reserve nation to describe people united by language, culture and history so as to form a distinct group within a larger territory"[8]) however Nationalism as a concept or ideology is only about 200 years old so it might be straining to apply it to older movements.

The only objection to separatism is likely to come from people who feel it's too neutral (e.g. Americans will refer to the pro-independence faction in the Revolutionary War as patriots rather than separatists). --Lesleyhood (talk) 14:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The conflict of 1861-65 is still a tender subject among many Americans, so historically there's been debate over even what to call the conflict. See Naming the American Civil War. Southerners asserted a right to Secession whose existence Northerners denied. For many years, the official Northern name for the conflict was the War of the Rebellion, something that Southerners denied they had engaged in. Northerners also called it the War of, or for, the Union. Southerners preferred calling the struggle the War between the States, the War for Southern Independence or even the War of Northern Aggression (or Yankee Oppression), and disliked the term Civil War for what they considered its negative implications. Civil War is now the generally used term. "Southern separatism" might apply more generally to the sentiments, opinions and intellectual trend that led the Southern legislatures to enact Ordinances of Secession, and secessionism more specifically to the political movement that led there. Oddly enough, I think the War of Secession (or of the Secession, or for Secession) was used by partisans of both sides after 1865, but with rather different implications. [And I need to add the caveat that I'm using Southerner and Northerner here as loose substitutes for the partisans of the Confederate and Union causes, regardless of their geographical origins or identification.] —— Shakescene (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Quite a few southerners still call it "the war of northern aggression". War Between the States is a pretty neutral term, as it's unquestionably true. Lincoln called it a Civil War, and that's probably the most often used term for it. Milton Bradley once made a board game called "Battle Cry", and I have a vague recollection that it was originally called "Civil War", possibly changed due to P.C. Don't bet the family jewels on that, though. More research needed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

After WW1, President Woodrow Wilson used the term "national self-determination" for the same process you describe; with reference to the nationalities of the German and Habsberg Empires. You may find it a less emotive term and it has a good pedigree. Alansplodge (talk) 02:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Of course, as a historian and a Virginian by birth, Wilson was a sympathizer with the Lost Cause of Southern self-determination. The term has its own difficulties both ways: advocates of total independence see "self-determination" as a euphemism for continued political subordination, while those advocating a single uniform nationality (e.g. British, French, Spanish, Soviet, Chinese, Austro-Hungarian, American) always insist that everyone already has self-determination. But it really depends on the context whether "self-determination" is le mot juste; it might very well be the best neutral term in your particular case.—— Shakescene (talk) 21:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, this is off-track, so the complainers can "give it its independence" if they want, but since you bring up the "lost cause", I'm reminded of one of Rhett Butler's comments from Gone With the Wind, comparing the north and south: "They have factories, shipyards, coal mines, and a fleet to bottle up our harbor and starve us to death. All we have is cotton, slaves... and arrogance." While that may sound like a putdown of the south, it states a harsh reality - that in order to gain independence and win a war, it takes more than emotion; more than "believing". The northern army, initially at least, was managed by bunglers. (I once heard a history teacher say, "If Lincoln was such a great President, how come it took him 3 years to find General Grant?") But the north won in spite of itself, because it had the resources to outlast the south and to cut them off from external assistance. When it comes to separatism, independence, or whatever to call it, it's definitely important to "pick your battles". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Chinese Sentences Translation

These are Hakka Chinese sentences in IPA transcription. I don't know this IPA transcription. Can you somebody please convert these sentences into regular Chinese characters? 192.75.118.46 (talk) 16:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

[ a˦˦ mɔi˥˥ ɲja˦˦ mi˦˦ hi˥˥ tʰju˩˩ hi˦˦ tsɔn˧˩ lɔi˩˩ m˦˦ tsʰɛn˩˩ ]

[ kja˦˦ lau˧˩ tʰai˦˦ tsuk˧ tau˧˩ tsak˩ jɔŋ˩˩ jap˥ lɔi˩˩ kau˧˩ ]

[ hau˧˩ laŋ˦˦ ɔ˦˦, sui˧˩ tʰuŋ˧ kai˥˧ sui˧˩ kam˦˦ kʰɛn˩˩ pɛn˦˦ ɔ˦˦ ]

Two pronunciation questions

How are the following pronounced?

• Calne
• Jbara

Thanks! +Angr 16:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

As for Jbara, watch this. Oda Mari (talk) 17:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! Calne I found in the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary too. +Angr 19:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Angr, what did the dictionary say? I'm curious. Marco polo (talk) 01:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

/kɑːn/, as in The Wrath of Calne. +Angr 08:43, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

As for Jbara, could there have been more than one option? HOOTmag (talk) 19:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Finnish auxiliary verbs

I'm fairly sure I have asked this already, but I don't remember when and where. I thought I'd ask it here anyway, because this is a topic I've thought a lot about.

Finnish has a good deal of auxiliary verbs. Here's a list of what I can come up with:

• ehtiä: have the time to
• haluta: want
• jaksaa: have the energy to
• osata: be able to (know how to, have the skill to)
• raaskia: have the heart to
• saada: be allowed to
• uskaltaa: dare
• viitsiä: be bothered to, be arsed to
• voida: be able to (in a physical sense, i.e. not to be prevented)

Can English express all of these in one word? I know Swedish can express almost all of them:

• ehtiä - hinna
• haluta - vilja
• jaksaa - orka
• saada - få
• uskaltaa - våga

But I don't know what raaskia or viitsiä is in Swedish, and AFAIK both osata and voida are kunna in Swedish. How to make the distinction? Are there any other languages that can express all these? Are there languages that have even more auxiliary verbs? JIP | Talk 20:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd say that in the appropriate context, English can can correspond to ehtiä ("I can't go shopping with you today, I have to work"), jaksaa ("I can't cook dinner tonight, I'm too exhausted"), osata ("Can you swim?"), raaskia ("I can't tell him how stupid he looks in that shirt"), saada ("You can't smoke in the restaurant"), and voida ("Can you get this door open?"). Haluta and uskaltaa you've already glossed with a single English word. That leaves only viitsiä as unexpressable by a single word in English. +Angr 20:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Viitsiä would most often be expressed as orka (whose literal meaning is closer to jaksaa), and context would determine the difference. A near-exact translation is idas, which is somewhat seldom used today. ("Jag ids inte" - "I can't be bothered") Both Swedish and English have a slight ways to distinguish osata and voida. "Jag kan inte"/"I can't" being the broadest sense of being unable to do something (for whatever reason), whereas "Jag förmår inte"/"I am unable" carries a somewhat more physical sense. But I think Angr is right that mostly it's inferred from context. --Pykk (talk) 13:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

October 31

idiom as a noun

Is there a name for an idiom used as a noun in English? For example, "cruel and unusual" (used as a noun, meaning torture), or "breaking and entering" (used as a noun, meaning burglary), or "tom-ah-to -- tom-ei-to" (used as a noun, meaning identity between two objects or categories)? --Dr Dima (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I think these are examples of metonymy, and some of them of synecdoche. --ColinFine (talk) 00:41, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard any of those used as nouns. Breaking and entering is mostly a legal term, sometimes used in ordinary contexts but usually with its normal meaning, not idiomatically. 69.228.171.150 (talk) 07:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Cruel and unusual is mainly an adjective, and refers not just to torture, but *any* punishment that is inhumane (including excessively-long prison sentences, certain death penalties (hanging comes to mind) and dismemberment. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Stop... at a WHAMMY!!)} 19:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Words ending in "-ing" are often used as a noun. The homophone "braking", for example. A bit off-track now - hanging, when done the correct way, is actually more humane than the electric chair. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Not murdering someone is even less inhumane. What a concept!--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 14:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Russian dialects

Which Russian dialect is spoken in Kaliningrad Oblast? --88.77.244.107 (talk) 12:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Has it been Russian long enough to have a distinct dialect? Our Kaliningrad article says the Germans were expelled and replaced with Russians, so presumably they speak whatever dialect those Russians spoke, but we'd have to find out what dialect that was. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, modern Russian isn't really noted for having strongly distinct dialects. Asking 'which dialect' would imply a generally-recognized and well-defined set of dialects. I'm not sure there really is? It's at least not analogous to, say, German. --Pykk (talk) 02:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Various sources state that Kaliningrad was settled by Russians from different parts of Russia. According to this source, standard Russian is spoken there, with little trace of a regional dialect. This isn't surprising, since standard Russian would be the form that migrants from different parts of the country would have in common. Also, standard Russian is based on the central Russian dialect of Moscow, which is transitional between northern and southern dialects and thus comprehensible to people from all parts of Russia. Marco polo (talk) 02:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I saw that page too but it does say at the beginning "This work doesn't try, by any means, to give any kind of realistic picture of Kaliningrad, but a fiction created on one of the many myths that surround the city." (Still, other Google results also claim that they speak standard Russian.) Adam Bishop (talk) 03:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Proper Nouns

Hello. As a personal challenge I am looking for complicated proper nouns. Nouns that are uncommon and people are unsure if its a common noun and proper noun. For example, Xerox. Sadly, this is the only one I've found and I really could use some help. Thank You. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.85.1.189 (talk) 16:46, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

List of generic and genericized trademarks might help. These were all proper nouns on their introduction, but have since become commn nouns. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

There are also eponyms - words named after a person, many of which have such currency they are now considered common nouns (e.g., boycott, watt, diesel) - see Category:Lists of eponyms. Grutness...wha? 00:13, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

what is the meaning of this Chinese comment on my wiki entry?

I added a paragraph about James Legge to the wiki entry for "Huntly, Aberdeenshire", and a few days later received the following totally mysterious message in Chinese. Legge had a 50-year role in Chinese studies.... so perhaps this person is telling me something of interest? He is clearly referring me to the Chinese wiki... but other than that I have no idea as I do not read chinese. Can you tell me what the message says? thanks.....

from Peter2006son已经在2009年10月31日 (星期六)建立了Wikisource的 User talk:Maz59页面，请到http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User_talk:Maz59 查看当前修订版本。

这是新建页面。

编辑摘要： 歡迎用戶

联系此编辑者：

邮件：http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:%E7%94%B5%E9%82%AE%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7 /Peter2 006son

本站：http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User:Peter2006son

在您访问此页之前，将来的更改将不会向您发通知。您 也可以重设您所有监视页面的通知标记。

              Wikisource通知系统

-- 要改变您的监视列表设置，请访问 http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:%E7%9B%91%E8%A7%86%E5%88%97%E8%A1%A8/edit

反馈和进一步的帮助: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:%E7%9B%AE%E5%BD%95 maz59Maz59 (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I can't read Chinese, but did you happen to view a page on the Chinese wikipedia for the first time? You get a welcome message (to your e-mail, your Wikipedia talk page, or both) whenever you do that. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Google Translate came up with this:

from Peter2006son have been in 2009, 10 Yue 31 Ri (Xingqi Liu) established a Wikisource to User talk: Maz59 page, go to http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User_talk:Maz59 view the current revised version.

This is a new page.

Edit Summary: Welcome to the user

Contact the editor:

E-mail: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:电邮用户/Peter2006son

Site: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User:Peter2006son

When you visit this page before, the future changes will not give you notice. You can also reset all of your monitor notification page mark.

Wikisource Notification System

- To change your watchlist settings, visit http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:监视列表/edit

Feedback and further assistance: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:目录

Hope that helps. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Pachakutiq, Pachacútec, Pachacuti

I'm giving thought to requesting a move for the Pachacuti article into what I consider a more-appropiate title of "Pachakutiq." Now, in the title I include the 3 most common names that this Inca emperor is commonly called. Pachakutiq is, technically, his real name as that is the Quechua form of writing and saying it. Pachacútec is the way that people refer to this person in Spanish, though I think I've seen some English publications that mention the emperor as "Pachacutec" (Same word, but without the accent). Lastly, "Pachacuti" is generally the term by which the Inca emperor is called in English. However, the problem I have with "Pachacuti" is that it really doesn't reflect the real name of the person in question. "Pachakutiq" is his real name (though it must be said that the Quechua writing system, as I'm sure most of you know, was not developed until more-recent centuries), and it sounds better than "Pachacuti" (which, if you really come to think of it, sounds quite silly). However, before I request the move, I would like to hear the more knowledgeable opinions from the Reference desk/Language group. Perhaps I am incorrect in my thoughts, and maybe it's just me who sees the name "Pachacuti" as incorrect and silly. As always, thanks in advance for the language help.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 19:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

In this context not really a linguistic question, but just one about Wikipedia style, which says: "For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article, unless those spellings are idiosyncratic or obsolete." Does that help? --ColinFine (talk) 00:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

It sort of helps. I guessed it would be a linguistic question since it deals with what the better name is for a person in the English language. I'm not sure if "Pachacuti" would be an idiosyncratic term (according to the way I understood the definition, it does seem to be "idiosyncratic" or "peculiar"). What do you think, based on the definition of the word "idiosyncracy," is Pachacuti a peculiar term in comparisson to "Pachakutiq"?--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 12:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

November 1

The study of borders

Is there a word for an interest in (the study of) borders? I am fascinated with borders, enclaves and exclaves, overseas territories, and tripoints. I'm not as into the countries themselves, rather, where one ends and another begins. Is there a term for this interest? --Codell^Talk 02:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, as you may have noticed in the Border article, it mentions the study of borders but does not give a name to it. I put [borders study] into Google and the second that came up (after an entry for the Borders bookstore chain) was the wikipedia article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

"Liminology" has some results on Google that seem to deal with the study of borders of various kinds. The Greek word for "border" escapes me but I suppose you could form an -ology from it. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

How about Quadripoints? They're cute. Bus stop (talk) 03:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't get the same result for "borders study" in Google. The Greek word for border is Σύνορα, so would "sunoraology" be correct? I like quadripoints too but no international ones current exist so I didn't include it in the list. --Codell^Talk 05:10, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually I know at least one quadripoint: China, Mongolia, Russia, and Kazakhstan. I think it would be sunorology in English phonology.174.3.111.148 (talk) 09:07, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I would considered the study of borders a subfield of political geography. I've long been interesting in the topic but cannot think of a term for it. Also, I'd recommend against the term "Quadripoint". It would be nice to have an English term for such things, but as far as I can tell "quadripoint" is a neologism created by Wikipedians, via a translation from some German term, iirc. In short, it is a term that little usage outside Wikipedia, as far as I can tell. The books I have that focus on the history, quirks, etc, of political borders tend to use the word "shape", as in "The Shaping of America", or "How the States got their Shapes". I'm skeptical about their being a non-arcane non-neologistic word for it. Pfly (talk) 09:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Mongolia and Kazakhstan do not touch so technically it's not a quadripoint. "At present there are no generally recognized quadripoints involving four different countries", but you can look at subnational ones like Utah-Colorado-Arizona-New Mexico.80.123.210.172 (talk) 10:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Surely it should be synorology rather than sunorology - the Greek upsilon is regularly transliterated as y in Latin and hence in most English derivatives. --rossb (talk) 17:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it should, although Google has no evidence of "synorology". Adam Bishop (talk) 18:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Meaning

What is "Stype"?174.3.111.148 (talk) 08:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

From the context given in the article, it would appear that Stype is a person who wrote about ancient history (antiquarian). --TammyMoet (talk) 09:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

It's actually a typo for Strype, John Strype to be precise. An "antiquarian", by the way, is basically any early modern historian, who did not use the critical techniques of modern historical study (they didn't necessarily study ancient history, they could have studied their own contemporary history, like Strype). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Russian translation

I moved Party of Belarusian Communists, after noting that ru wikipedia article had been moved and there's a reference that the party changed its name recently ([9]). But just after moving, I recalled that 'Mir' can also mean 'world'. What would be a good translation into English of the name 'Белорусская партия объединенных левых "Справедливый мир"'? --Soman (talk) 10:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty has translated the name as "Belarusian Party of United Leftists — A Just World". --Cam (talk) 18:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

grape variety pronunciation

How is the grape variety 'TANNAT' pronounced? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.76.21.59 (talk) 12:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

FWIW: The French WP states that the term originated in the Occitan language. Maybe there is a linguist online who has a grasp of this language / dialect? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

What does Sjt. Prefix stand for in English.

Hi

I am from India, and had read a book about Ghandhiji (Father of the nation, India). In that i had found prefix before names. The prefix was Sjt. Could you tell me what does that mean.? 117.204.116.132 (talk) 12:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you.

It seems to mean Sergeant, the army rank. Tinfoilcat (talk) 16:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Though that is more commonly abbreviated "Sgt." (for obvious reasons). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

"Serjeant" is an alternative spelling, as in Serjeant-at-Arms. --Tango (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Here's a discussion about the use of "Sjt" vs. "Sgt". -- JackofOz (talk) 18:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Recording Spanish Internet Radio Talk Shows in MP3 format

Hi,

I have never used an ipod. I am studying spanish and listening to spanish internet radio stations.

Is there a way to record the shows and replay them, ideally on something like an ipod that I can take with me on the bus or when I jog.

Thank you for your help. I really appreciate the services provided by Wikipedia. It is where I look first for information.

Ramona Whyte —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.231.224 (talk) 18:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Strange english sentences to latin sentences

Hello, I have in a frenzy of interest, gone "all over" google to find an effective latin sentence translator that doesn't give me a bunch of mangled words. I've failed completly, therefore I ask you nice editors to please translate these following weird sentences for me:

• Fireball, fly
• Special water orb, rise
• Homing (A lá Sidewinder missile)

Thanks in advance

81.228.157.244 (talk) 19:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Um... Clarification: are you telling a fireball to fly, and a special water orb to rise? The last one makes little sense to me in English, so I couldn't translate it. I am somewhat doubtful that Latin had a word for fireball, but you never know (I'm going to use "ball of fire"). I'll give those first two phrases a shot, assuming that they mean what I suspect they mean.

• Pila flammae, vola.
• Orbis precipuus aquae, consurge. Falconus^{p t c} 20:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, it's just some fiction related terms recently orbiting my head, I also used ball of fire in my somewhat dog latin attempt with the help of wiktionary, somehow I wasn't satisfied with pila incendo, vola. 81.228.157.244 (talk) 20:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)