Talk:Centum and satem languages

Dacian and Romanian

Why not the Dacian suta (plural sute)? Why should be the Dacian language extinct? Romanian is by far more vivid and rich to be of Latin origin. Jacob Stirbu

The name satem (or correctly: satəm) is taken from Avestan for historical reasons. It was just an arbitrary decision.

The question why Dacian should be extinct is not clear. But it IS extinct! Romanian has got only few words from the pre-Roman substratum (i.e. from Dacian). But it is not a topic to be placed within the "Satem" subject.

--Grzegorj 11:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually Grzegorj, Romanian has a very large quantity of substratum words, the only real debate is whether they are Dacian---or Thracian, or Illyrian, et cetera. Alexander 007 04:21, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh... I am not a Romanist so I do not know the exact number. But A. Cihac in his etymological dictionary of Romanian gives 2350 Slavic words (of course all of them are borrowings), 1150 Latin words, 950 Turk words, 650 Greek words, 600 Hungarian words and only 50 "Albanian" ones (some of them may be Dacian, Thracian or Illyrian). Maybe later studies let scholars find more Balkanisms in Romanian. Nevertheless, 50 of the total amount of 5750 means ca. 8.5 pro mille (not even 1%). I would not rather say that it is a very large quantity...

--Grzegorj 20:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, your source was wrong. The cognates (not loans) between Albanian and Romanian alone number about 145 (I take this number from a Hungarian source that was discussing the issue). Add to that the words of unknown etymology/origin that are not found in Albanian, and your figure and your characterization is completely wrong. Alexander 007 20:30, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, I have cited a source from 19th century. Some of dark Romanian words may be Bastarnan or even Sarmatian. But please, even 200 Balkanian words give only 3% of all the vocabulary. So, it is not "a very large quantity", do not exaggerate. Compare it with the amount of native (Latin) words: they are 6 times more. And all the Romanian grammar is Romance with Slavic influence, not Dacian. So, we should forget Dacian. Dacian is extinct! Only some Dacian words may have survived. Just like some Gaul words have survived in French.

--Grzegorj 21:32, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

19th century etymological dictionaries dealing with Romanian are known to be outdated and full of errors. As a rule, they tend to have slighted any notion of a large substratum element, and in retrospect this tendency to underestimate was a tendency based on 19th century psychology rather than science. I agree that Dacian is extinct, and I agree we must not just assume a Dacian substratum. But there is a Balkanic substratum in Romanian, whether "Dacian", "Moesian", "Thracian", or "Illyrian". I may or may not have exaggerated when I said very large quantity, but note that I have in mind a figure around 300, and I consider that a very large quantity when one is speaking of substratum words. The linguist/Thracologist Sorin Olteanu in his LTDM site says there may be thousands [1]. I do not claim thousands, and I'm not sure how he arrived at that figure (I think he was considering Aromanian as well), but I do claim around 300; quite a number of linguists would agree. Alexander 007 21:41, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

What Jacob was asking was "Why not list Dacian 'suta' among the examples of words for hundred that show the Satem sound-change?". He wasn't asking "Why not change the artice's name to 'suta'?" To answer his question: we can't list Romanian 'suta' as Dacian because it is not attested as Dacian. Though not attested as Dacian, a number of current linguists are accepting that Romanian 'suta' is not from Slavic 'sto', but more likely from the substratum. Alexander 007 04:31, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Why not form Slavic? But the Slavic word for "100" was nothing else but *suta! During centuries the former short a developed regularly into o in Slavic, and short u developed into the ultra-short vowel marked with Russian "hard sign", ъ. So, the oldest attested Slavic (Old Church Slavic) word for "100" was sъto. It shows 100% accordance with the Romanian form. And I see virtually no reason for searching another source for the Romanian word.

--Grzegorj 20:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Despite what you see, and you are entitled to your opinion (nor am I diminishing this particular opinion of yours), current linguistic sources no longer assume a Slavic origin for sutǎ. See even the conservative DEX (it is online [2] ), which does not derive it from Slavic. Unless I'm mistaken (I haven't read the detailed studies), the problem is that by the time the Slavs influenced Romanian, they no longer had the word in the form *suta (unattested), so Romanians were not likely to get it from them. You seem to be interested in this, so I will pass on what linguistic references I can find on this topic onto your Talk Page eventually if not here. I would imagine though that "Slavic" (excuse the generalization) references would still assume that the Romanian word is a loan. Alexander 007 20:37, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

But it is not true what you say, be more exact for the future. "SÚT//Ă1 ~e num. card. 1) Nouăzeci plus zece. O ~ de pagini. 2) cu valoare de num. ord. Al sutălea; a suta. /<sl. suto"

So, DEX does derive the word from Slavic! So do I. Please give evidence that I am wrong, not trends.

The Slavs were able to influence Romanian very early, even before their migration to the Balkan Peninsula. But some Slavic tribes were north-eastern neighbours of Proto-Romanians as early as at the very beginning of the Middle Age. And the form *suta may have survived up to ca. 800 AD. The evidence is the phonetic shape of old Slavic loans in Greek. I do not think that the first Slavic-Romanian contact was later that the Slavic-Greek one. So, I do not think that those who refuse Slavic origin of sutǎ are specialists in the early history of the Slavs. Of course, they may be right but only if they know another possible and more probable source. Frankly, I do not think that any such source exists.

--Grzegorj 21:47, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

You have quoted NODEX, and the bibliography does not indicate [3] that it is published by the Academia Romana, which is more official. The DEX, which the bibliography notes is published by the Academy, gives the source as unknown (Et. nec.). Alexander 007 21:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Negative view ("unknow source") means no view. Please show why the word cannot be of Slavic origin. I cannot see such evidence.

--Grzegorj 23:34, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

When the DEX states Et. nec., it indicates that the source of the word is unknown. This means that those linguists at the Academy (who are conservative, mind you, and in most cases they will rather say a word is from Slavic than say it is of unknown origin) as of 1998 did not accept the Slavic origin. Why? Well, I'm not in Romania, so I do not have much access to the references in question. The NODEX from 2002 does not seem to be published by the Academy, though it is a Romanian publication also, and it gives a supposed Slavic origin for the word. Alexander 007 01:14, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorin Olteanu: The reason why they reject, on good ground, the slavic etymology is the accent: while in slavic the stress falls on the final syllable (sŭtó), in Rom. if falls on the first, the word being pronounced sútă (like in eng. soóter). For other issues visit my site http://soltdm.tripod.com/index.htm

Polyphyletic or Paraphyletic or

If all Indo-Europeans fall into the two categories centum and satem, it isn't possible for both groups to be paraphyletic according to the usual meaning of the word. Does it have a different meaning for linguistics, did one or the other page mean polyphyletic, or is there simply a mistake?

Answer: Yes, you are right! And which is more, the view that the satəm languages are polyphyletic is only one of two possibilities that are under discussion. My opinion is that they are monophyletic. And e.g. close relation between German and Slavic is surely a result of secondary processes, not evidence for their relationship.

Because the matter has not been univocally solved so far, my suggestion is to delete the appropriate statement from the article. What do you think about it?

BTW. Some modern centum languages are formally satəm in fact. See French cent [sã] which has [s] in the place of the original (Latin) [k]. Even if it is a result of secondary development, the division into kentum (centum) and satem must be taken with caution.

--Grzegorj 11:55, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I remove the statement because I agree with you.--Wiglaf 07:34, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Centum languages with secondary palatalization of /k/ to /s/ are not in any way "formally satem in fact". In French cent /sã/, /s/ goes back to PIE

• /ḱ/, true enough; but in cinq /sɛ̃k/ it goes back to PIE */k^w/. And
• /ḱ/ shows up as /k/ in cœur /køːʁ/. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 21:42, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

It is not true at all. They are just 3 examples which can prove nothing. In fact, PIE *k and *k' merged long before Classic Latin times. *k^w was a separate phoneme but sometimes the labialization was reduced (like in quinque > cinq). There is no reason to get back to the PIE times hence French developed from Latin, not immediately from PIE. Latin lost the difference PIE *k' : *k and French was not able to restore it in any way.

The development of Latin [k] and [k^w] in French depended on the phonetic environment, not on its deeper etymology. Namely, [k] developed into [ts] and eventually into [s] before a front vowel (ex. merci from mercēdem, or cent /sã/ from centum /kentum/), into [tš] and eventually into [š] before [a] (ex. Charles from Carolus, chose from causam etc.), and stayed unchanged in other positions (ex. coude from cubitum [k], aucun from alicūnum etc.).

And, the process of changing of former (Latin) [k] into [s] before a front vowel is what caused the numeral "100" to begin from [s] in French, just like in satəm languages. Because we know Latin, the language from which French developed, we can say that [s] in French word for "10" is secondarily. But if we had not known the language which gave birth to French, we would not have been able to say whether French is centum or satəm. French is formally satəm because the word for "100" begins with [s] in this language. Of course we could count this language as centum but it is so only because we have additional knowledge.

So, if we had known that ex. a Dacian word for "100" begins with [s], it would not have been the ultimate argument yet that Dacian belongs to the satəm group. It is so because it might have been secondarily satemized just like French.

--Grzegorj 20:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Thracian

The Thracian corpus has preserved a number of Satem examples, but its classification as Satem is still being discussed. Sorin Olteanu states that Thracian was a Centum language till a later period when it became Satemized under Balto-Slavic influence. We have no idea what the Thracian word for hundred was, and some Thracian words don't show the sibilant. This article notes that it is only "perhaps" Satem, not definitely, so no problem. Alexander 007 07:07, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't have thought there was enough information on Phrygian and Thracian to say definitively one way or another. But there is evidence that some Anatolian languages were satem even though Hittite was centum, and Luwian seems to have been both: it kept *k and *k^w distinct but made a sibilant (spelled z, probably [ts]) out of *ḱ. --Angr/_comhrá 07:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Because of unsufficient data, it is hard to say anything on the above mentioned languages. It is however worth to mention that in each satəm language there are words with velars in the place of PIE palatals. For instance, the original palatals, as a rule, give velars in Slavic when the root contains an original "s". Just compare Lithuanian žąsis and Old Church Slavic gǫsь 'goose' (< PIE *gʹhans-i-).

I have not heard about satəm words in Luwian but I have heard on such words in Lycian. However, notice that Lycian is known from inscriptions form V-IV BC, i.e. very young when compared with Hittite. Such single Lycian words as snta "100", esbe "horse" or sijeni "it is lying / recumbent" may be borrowings from a Satəm language close related to Phrygian (if it really was Satəm) or Proto-Armenian. Some scholars, like V. Georgyev, believe that some late Anatolian languages had mixed character and had two components: an older one, close related to Hittite, and a newer one, Satəm. Three or four satəm words are known from Hittite itself. The most reliable and most widespread opinion is that they are borrowings from early Indoiranian spoken by people who inhabited Mitanni once.

--Grzegorj 20:56, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Dacian

I added Dacian, because it was at least semi-Satem. Alexander 007 07:22, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

What does "semi-Satem" mean, and what's the evidence? --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 08:19, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It's a shorthand term I used to describe a language that may have had Satem reflexes only very irregularly (Phrygian) or as a later development. The evidence for Dacian being Satem rests on examples such as the ones I've listed here:Talk:Dacian language. Alexander 007

All right but please do not term (s)kazat(sya) Common Slavic! It is Russian, not Common Slavic ((s)kazat'(sya) in transliteration). The Common Slavic form was kazati (attested in Old Church Slavic) and sъkazati, with the meaning "show something with gesture", not just "show" (see Vasmer, Russisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch). The Old Church Slavic and Common Slavic medium voice was kazati sę and sъkazati sę. The PIE form with *k^w- is not very likely, see Sanskrit śāsati, śāsti 'he/she shows with gesture', but also kāśatē 'it shows up' < PIE *k'ōs-, *kōk'- or *kōg'- (as far I know, the reconstruction of initial *k^w- is based only on Greek tekmar 'sign' < *k^wek-).

--Grzegorj 22:13, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the form is Russian, not Common Slavic. The etymology from *kwek- (or *kweg-) is based on my AHD from 1969, and they may have been wrong, but I think Olteanu in his current LTDM site still gives an initial kw- (Read this, it may be of interest). Alexander 007 22:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

---

There is no evidence that Thracian and Dacian were separate languages. In fact, the ethnonym Thrax (Thrāix), Threēix is known as long time ago as in Homer's texts. Northern Thracians were known as Getai in classic Greeks' times. Other Getai / Getae were known from the Dnestr region (Tyragetae), from the Don mouth (Thussagetae) and from the northern shore of the Caspian Sea (Massagetae). So, they may have been an Iranian tribe which was Thracized. In the Roman times Dacians (Daci, Dakoi, Dakai, Dakes) show up for the first time and they are count within Getae (so, within Thracians).

The number of Daco-Thracian satəm words exceeds those which are centum. So, we have insufficient evidence to count them within Centum. The term "Semi-Satem" is ridiculous, because in Daco-Thracian there is a number of words with velars in the place of PIE palatals, for different reasons (not necessary borrowings from Centum languages), just like in other Satəm languages (no true Satem languages are known in fact). For example, Akmonia may be native, cf. Slavic kamy, gen. kamene 'stone' (a centum form in a Satem language), related to English hammer (originally "stone hammer"), Lithuanian akmuo and ašmuo 'stone' (centum and satem forms side by side!), Latvian asmens 'blade of knife', Greek akmōn 'anvil', Sanskrit aśmā 'stone, rock'.

Other Dacian and Thracian Satəm words are:

• Asamus, hydronymic, from *ak'm- 'stone', see above,
• briza 'a sort of corn', cf. Slavic rъžь, German Roggen 'rye' and the English word (< *(w)rug'h-)
• -diza, toponymic formant, from *deig'h- 'build in clay, in brick',
• Diuzenus = Greek Diogenes (*-g'-),
• -esp-, -ezb-, onomastic formant, from *ek'wos 'horse',
• Kozeilas, Kozaros, Kozinthēs, cf. Slavic koza 'goat', kozьlъ 'he-goat',
• Razea, Raizdos, Rēsos from *rēg'- 'to rule, to govern; king',
• Zantiala from *g'enH-t- 'clan, tribe; to give birth',
• Zoltes from *g'hol- 'golden, yellow'.

Other Centum words are:

• Anguron (now Iron Gate) from PIE *ang'- 'narrow' (however, see also Slavic ǫglъ 'corner' (Latin angulus)),
• argilos 'mouse' from *arg'- 'silvery, bright' (see Argessos above),
• Decebalus parallel with Sanskrit daśabala 'having the power of 10 men',
• Dekaineos also from *dek'm- 'ten',
• Peuci (Dacian), Peukē, Pecetum (Thracian) from *peuk'- 'to prick' (cf. Latin picus 'woodpecker', picea 'spruce')
• Trikornion, maybe of Celtic origin in fact, from *k'orn- 'horn' (however cf. Slavic *karvā 'cow', literary 'horned animal', also with k-, not with expected s-)

Most of them have parallels in other Satem languages.

--Grzegorj 23:34, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, that's why I listed Dacian as Satem. Also, Romanian substratum words indicate satem-sound changes. One of the arguments against the Romanian substratum being "Illyrian" (as some may claim), is that Illyrian was most likely Centum (cf. Wilkes, et al.). So I have come to see the Satem nature of Daco-Thracian as a plus :) . "Semi-satem" is a concoction, and I would have used a better term, but forgot it on short notice. Alexander 007 23:42, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

However, Vladimir Georgiev and Ivan Duridanov would not agree that "there is no evidence that Dacian and Thracian were separate languages". Viewing them as separate languages on the same Indo-European branch seems likely, unless further evidence indicates something else. Given the uncertainty, it is best to list Dacian and Thracian separate. For example, many of your satem examples above are specifically Thracian (briza, -diza, Rhesos, etc., though Rhesos may also be Dacian, but I'm not sure; interestingly, there is a Dacian name Regalianus). Alexander 007 23:50, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Question

Where does Albanian fall into? At the beginning of the article it is stated that it's satem, and yet by the end of the article Albanian ends up being neither satem nor centum. The word for 100 in Albanian is 'qind' which is very close to the sound of k/c-int of centum. ~~Xhamlliku~~

Xhamlliku, Albanian 'qind' most likely is a loan from Latin 'centum'. This is what most linguists theorize, because 'qind' is not the expected form from PIE *(d)k'm.-tom.

Article needs some fixes

The Centum/Satem does not divided Indo-European into two dialects. The most accepted theory is that a sound change occurred very early in on area of the PIE and it spread to other areas. This explains why Indo-Iranian languages have complete Satem (the dialects in which the sound change probably occurred), Balto-Slavic has incomplete Satem, while the branches on the edge like Italic have no Satem changes.

For example, taken from Language History, Language Change, and Language Relationship by H. H. Hock and B. D. Joseph (1996, page 357), Father-in-law (PIE: *swek'uros): Sanskrit: s'vas'ura, Old C. Slavonic: svekuru, Latin: socer...Hundred (PIE: *k'm.tom): Sanskrit: s'atam, Old C. Slavonic: suto, Latin: centum...Notice that Old Church Slavonic has both /k/ and /s/ from PIE /*k'/.

Also, the sound change of the palatals to velars or sibilants may have just developed independently in the various branches of Indo-European, as this sound change occurs frequently across the worlds' languages. Any linguists want to work on this article?

At the very least someone should point out that this is only one of many isoglosses that lies between the various IE accents. Mallory shows 24 in a diagram taken from Raimo Anttila, and for the most part the "K-S boundary" doesn't even fall along the densest bundles. — B.Bryant 09:43, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I also can't vouch for the accuracy of the maps. Imperial78

I have edited the page which is more neutral in describing the sound change and at the end discussing the theories which the sound change is a part. Imperial78

Tocharian has no centum sound change, explain.

Dbachmann, how does Tocharian not have centum sound change? The palatals become velars. Also, it is likely that none of the centum languages form a node and the same with the satem languages. So, how is it that Albanian is not a satem language , when the term satem now just describes languages which have fricatives or affricates from the PIE palatals. There are no IE subgroups of Centum or Satem. Finally, I think you can keep the ad hominems to a minimum just because I didn't like your maps. Imperial78

Tocharian and Albanian

As far as I know, Tocharian is unambiguously Centum. The palatovelars and plain velars are merged. Keeping the labiovelars distinct is not a necessary condition for being called Centum, as merging the labiovelars with the plain velars could have happened at any time (it happened between Primitive Irish and Old Irish, for example). As for Albanian, I don't know much more about it than what I've read in Beekes, but it seems clearly Satem: the palatovelars have become the dental fricatives th, dh, while the plain velars and labiovelars largely merged. Beekes says the evidence that plain velars did not (secondarily) palatalize to s before front vowels while labiovelars did is "too meagre". So the strongest evidence is that Albanian is straightforwardly Satem. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 12:19, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, Albanian is mostly Satem, and for the purposes of dealing with Albanian, we can say it is Satem, no problem, but the mostly becomes essential when looking at the areal nature of Satemization (I admit, of course, that in no family was Satemization 100.000% complete, so yes, we can call Albanian Satem as long as the exceptions are noted). As for Tocharian, my point is that there is no evidence of any connection, areal or otherwise with the western Centum group. Tocharian simply melted all dorsal rows together, which really amounts to a 'null' status. Phonematically, you may as well call it Satem (palatovelars and velars collapsed), although of course the affrication is missing. I argue that evidence of labiovelars but not palatovelars at some stage is required for a Centum language. In the case of Tocharian, there possibly was such a stage, but we simply don't know. In Irish, even if we didn't have Primitive Irish, we could argue from the difference in treatment of gw and g that the labiovelars were, at some stage, separate. If we didn't have any such evidence in Celtic, I agree the situation would be just like in Tocharian. We do, however, have this evidence for Celtic, but not for Tocharian. dab (ᛏ) 13:26, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

PS, I realize that non-usage of the cuneiform "q" series by Hittite is a weak argument; they didn't use voiced vs voiceless either, and Semitic 'emphatic' stops are not equal to IE labiovelars. The Romans did still adopt Phoenician q for their labiovelar. Anyway, the main point there is that since Hittite doesn't spell its labiovelars as "q", there is no evidence either way. dab (ᛏ) 13:32, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

In Andrew Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin he argues that there is no Centum grouping, that Centum is simply a cover term for those languages that did not undergo Satemization. Under that definition Tocharian is clearly Centum by virtue of being non-Satem. But Sihler's definition of Centum (which he probably lifted from somewhere without citing his sources, something that irritates me no end about that book) of course doesn't have to be the only definition of Centum. As for Q in Latin, they didn't borrow Q to stand for their labiovelar, exactly; their labiovelar was spelled QV. And they probably didn't borrow it directly from Phoenician at all, they probably borrowed it from Greek qoppa, which was sometimes used in inscriptions to indicate a backed allophone of /k/ before /u/. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 14:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

agreed on both counts. I will correct the Latin labiovelar to qv. Yes, we should make clearer that while the Satem group is a result of "Satemization", the Centum group is often taken to equal "non-Satem". Since Albanian and Armenian are Satem on the surface, and that they may have been satemized secondarily not more a suspicion, Centum/Satem was indeed an 'either or' classification in Brugmanns time. It is precisely the 'outer' languages, Toch. and Anatolian, that require us to reevaluate the term. Still, logically, there was something like a "Centumization". Either, if there were three rows, a merger of k and k', or if there were only two rows, the (phonetic) creation of a labiovelar row. Clearly then, centum/satem cannot be a logical either/or term, because if the PIE phonology had survived in some remote pocket, it would be neither. Looking at the proto language of each branch, it is very clear that Italic/Germanic/Greek/Celtic were Centum, and that BSl/IIr was Satem. It is unclear whether Proto-Anatolian was either, and it is unclear what happened to Tocharian. If we apply Brugmann's "centum = non-satem" of course they will be centum, but that does not give any insight. Progress lies in the realization that centum/satem is a classification of "inner" dialects. dab (ᛏ) 06:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I think it is not even clear that Latin has labiovelar phonemes. Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation#Summary_of_phonemes gives gw and kw, but I suppose their monophonemic status is dubitable. I'm not sure about this, I suppose one has to decide from metrical evidence. dab (ᛏ) 06:08, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

According to Allen & Greenough's New Latin Grammar, qu, gu, and su counted as single consonants for metrical purposes. I'd hate to conclude on that basis that Latin had a phoneme /sʷ/, though. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 06:44, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Problem with Diachronic Map

This map is incorrect in what refers to the Iberian peninsula, since it reverses the geographical/linguistic areas. In Iberia the area presented in blue should be grey and the one in grey should be blue. In fact the one presently in blue was globaly the area of the Iberian language and Tartessian language (non-Indo-European languages), while the one presently in gray was in fact the one with Celtic and Proto-Celtic languages. See, for instance, this detailed map of the Pre-Roman Peoples and Languages of Iberia. This needs to be corrected. The Ogre 13:27, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The map (the upper) is just weird. There's no timestamp so I'm inclined to believe that it the present situation witch leads to some strangeness. No Portugese in Portugal. Norway and Sweden isn't covered. Scotland is excluded but Ireland is not. If you adjust for another time it won't wor either since Scotland and Ireland follow the same development. Someone really needs to correct these maps. The second, hypothetical, map have some inconsistensies too.. Like.. the areas overlapping the sea, while not covering land. Especially in Denmark and Sweden. It just looks really strang. -- Henriok 11:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Haplogroups and Substratum Hypothesis for Satemization??

Does anybody think we should put some information about haplogroups? Also I am perplexed that the "R1a" homeland and the "satem" homeland are identical. What is the current scientific opinion on the above? Also what caused the satemization of PIE? Is satemization equivalent to palatalization? Can we say that modern Romance languages were also "satemized". I remember there was a study that said that the "satemization/palatalization" of vulgar Latin is related to a substrutum effect due to the conquered people of Western Europe by the Romans. Could the same have happened with the "satemization" in the so called R1a (Kurgan) "homeland" (dark red on the map)? If so who were those people, North-Caucasians? Thank you and I would appreciate your insights. Also any good sources addressing the above issues would be appreciated i.e. (books by experts in both genetics and linguistics) --Kupirijo 19:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

This item deserves special attention. I would rather suggest to dedicate a separate article to satemization, covering linguistics, hypotheses, archeology and genetics. In the Netherlands such an article, listed in the languagebox, was well received. By the way, I don't know about theories on the cause of satemization, except grammaticalization: it just happened. Rokus01 06:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

the "R1a homeland" is associated with the PIE homeland, not the "Satem" homeland. As it happens, Satemization was a "central" phenomenon, that is, it spread in ripples around the former PIE homeland, at a time when R1a had already been spread all over the place (think successive waves). Case in point: Norway has more R1a than Persia. Satemization is 3rd millennium, R1a (M17) is 10th millennium, that's an appreciable difference. Maybe there could be an argument based on microsatellites, I don't know, someone will have to look into that. dab (𒁳) 08:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

High occurrences of R1a1 among non-IE Lapps and anthropological evidence of pre-nordic races in Norway might point to a much more complicated history of R1a1 during the last 10.000 years. To assume the relation between R1a1 and PIE is one to one seems to me a little simplistic, or a romanticed view of National Geographic journalists. Somewhere in history IE males should have caught up (high concentrations of) this gene, probably during the expansion itself, otherwise Poland -having the highest rate- would definitely be the PIE homeland. There is no way of sticking staightforward to loose publications and accept OR, what we need here are facts, gathered from different disciplines. Then, let the reader decide. Rokus01 09:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

yes, yes, that hardly needs pointing out. "R1a=IE" is simplistic nonsense. There does appear to be some intriguing correlation between R1a spread and IE expansion, but it is of course far from trivial; there is far too much time between M17 and PIE to make it straightforward. dab (𒁳) 09:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Not so very mainstream

discussion continued from [4]

---

[the article at present has:]

"The presence of three dorsal rows in the proto-language is still not universally accepted. The reconstructed "middle" row may also be an artifact of loaning between early daughter languages during the process of Satemization. For instance, Oswald Szemerényi (e.g., in his 1995 Introduction), while recognizing the usefulness of the distinction *kʷ, *k, *ḱ as symbolizing sound-correspondences does argue that the support for three phonologically distinct rows in PIE is insufficient and prefers a twofold notation of *kʷ, *k. Other scholars who assume two dorsal rows in PIE include Kuryłowicz (1935), Meillet (1937), Lehmann (1952), and Woodhouse (1998)."

"Still not universally accepted" sounds pretty NPOV, as if acceptance is some kind of obligation imposed by Wikipedia. Also, it has a taste of tampering with the definition of "mainstream". I would rather call "mainstream" the agnostic definition of Britannica. So please tell me, if not even the existence of three dorsal rows is universally accepted, then how will you make me believe a sound shift based on such a theory will be? Don't get me wrong, I don't mind you mentioning such a deduction if with the proper reference from your bibliography (just for avoiding the impression of OR). However, adhering to such a view implying an early and separate two-way division has consequences that are certainly not mainstream, like reusing the definition of centum to a subdivision that experienced such a centum sound change and excluding others. You call it agnostic, but I doubt many respected scholars will be interested in keeping an almost obsolete definition like "centum" alive like this. Satemization is much more interesting! (I wonder why no separate article about this subject exists). And please, at least improve the statement on Tocharian: it is not typical centum to combine all rows into a single velar row, this is a feature of Tocharian only. Rokus01 22:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

• the "still" isn't intended as temporal, but in the sense of "all the same". Feel free to rephrase.
• the three rows implicate the two mergers, and are indeed constructed to account for them. there is no leap of faith between assuming three rows and assuming the two mergers as you seem to imply. I'm not going to discuss this further. Consult any introduction to IE linguistics.
• "implying an early and separate two-way division has consequences that are certainly not mainstream, like reusing the definition of centum to a subdivision that experienced such a centum sound change and excluding others" — you still show no appreciation of the basic phonology of the isogloss. It is absolutely straightforward that both centum and satem underwent phonological change, hence it is absolutely straightforward that in principle there could be cases where neither applies. the question is, does there happen to be such a case or not.
• "satemization is more interesting" is a strange statement. You might say "satemization is more obvious" because of the phonetic changes (assibilation), but it is pointless to consider it in isolation. "interest" is subjective, but fwiiw, I would consider the centum change more interesting precisely because it is less obvious.
• "it is not typical centum to combine all rows into a single velar row" — yes? I would never suggest such a thing. I'll try to rephrase for clarity.

dab (𒁳) 08:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Satemization

Dab, I call satemization interesting, because it implies important historic upheavels- tied to horse and chariot like theorized by Robert Drews- attested by a satem language changing process that originated in an (already Indo-Iranian) central steppe region and radiated to influence many other IE languages, leaving out some remarkabable exceptions on the fringes (like Tocharian). Secondary satemization has been theorized and described concerning Balto-Slavic languages (loosely linked to Germanic), and I am interested in gathering similar information published on Albanian (satem, nevertheless linked to "centum" Illyrian and especially Messapian) and on Armenian (satem, somehow closely linked to "centum" Greek features). Even Greek did not escape Indo-Iranian influence in an early stage, although it didn't receive enough to "satemize". Obviously, "satemization" drew new boundaries along natural barriers splitting up old communities. The impact of satemization can be traced back a lot easier than the changes implied by centum, of which most information is irretrievably lost. The mechanism has been repeatedly suggested or assumed, however, most information on this topic is dispersed and specialized. I think it will justify a focus but, since it involves a lot more than linguistics, rather in a separate article. Rokus01 20:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Sound changes

Which variant from theese sound changes is correct for satemization:
1) k' > tš > š > s and g' > dž > ž > z
2) k' > ts > s and g' > dz > z
3) k' > h' > š > s and g' > gh' > ž > z
4) k' > h' > s' > s and g' > gh' > z' > z
5) some other
š is for Sanskrit and Lithuanian, and s is for Avestan and Balto-Slavic (except Lithuanian). h' is soft unvoiced h and gh' is soft voiced h, s' is soft s, z' is soft z'.
Attested changes are tš > š / dž > ž (Latvian), h' > š (Russian), ts > s (Spanish). Change š > s is doubtful, 'cause I don't know the real attestation of such change. Latvian also has attestation of change g' > ģ; ģ is pronounced as [d'] (~ eng. during).
For example, the numeral '8', originally *aki-tam, where aki - 'eye', Lith. 'akis'; tam - 'that'. So '8' - 'that with eyes', i.e. 'eyed', as we see, the number has two holes like eyes. ;) But how we can get astam (Old. Latv. astam-tas 'eight') from akitam? Roberts7 18:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Spanish does not have anything to do with satemization. The history of number 8 does not have any bearing with PIE. So what is the question? Rokus01 22:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Spanish was only example of attestation of ts > s change, nothing more, this change is attested in other languages too. Number 8 is only example, where the satem-centum change occured. The question was how to get /s/ form /k'/, the change from /k'/ to /s/ can't be dirrect as from ts > s, so which were intermediate sounds between k' > ? > ? > ? > s ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Roberts7 (talk • contribs) 14:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

I think you will find this link interesting. http://soltdm.com/langtdm/phon/palatala_e.htm. Theta in Thracian is probably the sound you are looking for. Thus equating the word Grecian = Thracian (according to this theory) If you believe in a greco-thraco-phrygian group (http://soltdm.com/langmod/romana/grecrom.htm) which I think I do, then there is a source of satemization from the north of Greece. It seems that satemization in my opinion is an external influence from the North East of the Black Sea, since we see a gradient of satemization even like "centum" languages such as greco-thraco-phrygian (that includes ancient macedonian by the way). Even Slavic (which according to new genetic evidence) originated in the Ukraine and NOT in the baltics did not escape satemization since it was closer to the North-Caucasian/Pontic source. --Kupirijo 00:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Gosh. Roberts, what are you talking about? Number "8" with "two holes" appeared in Europe only in Middle Ages, what does it have to do with PIE at all? Besides, the word for "eight" comes from PIE *h₃eḱteh₃, *oḱtō, so -> Lithuanian aštuoni, Latvian astoņi. Now, as for your question, the most likely intermediate stage between the palatized velar and sibilant is an affricate, so, for example, ḱ -> ts -> s. The change ḱ -> ts, by the way, is attested even in originally non-satem languages such as Luwian. However, when establishing regular sound correspondences, you don't have to mention every single intermediate stage in the phonetic change, so there is no problem with writing ḱ -> s. Remember, it is just a sound correspondence, and not necessarily the full sound change. KelilanK 19:22, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, if we state that s < ts < ḱ (for Latvian & Slavic & Avestan?), but š < tš < ḱ (for Lithuanian) (Sanskrit has ś < ć < ḱ ), then what is common form of ḱ sound for Proto-Balto-Slavic language? As also how this ḱ was pronounced? There is really impossible to palatalize the k sound, the only existing platal versions of k are ķ [c] (actually palatalized t sound), č [tʃ] (again palatalized t only stronger than ķ) and c [ts] (also affricate (nonpalatal) from t sound), Polish has also ć [ʨ] (intermediate sound between ķ and č). Can you try to pronounce f.e. the word *aḱsis 'axis'? The only variant is [akjs^jis].
By Lithuanian linguists Latvian s is usually considered to be developed from Lithuanian š (such opinion is propagated in all linguistic books about Latvian ethymology and in many other Lithuanian articles like this), because it's easier to state that Latv. asara < Lith. ašara "tear" than Latv. asara<asrā<atsrā<..<aḱrū, but Lith. ašara<ašrā<ačrā<..<aḱrū. I don't know any real attestation of such s < š and z < ž sound change. Roberts7 23:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

questionable material deleted

The existence of this feature in Northwest Caucasian languages is significant, since they represent the language family that is geographically closest to the supposed Indo-European homeland in the southern Russian steppes, which, added to the poor vowel system and glottalic consonants apparently shared between PIE and NW Caucasian, hints at an early Sprachbund [5].

"this feature" is a three-way dorsal split. the glottalic theory isn't widely accepted and i suspect that this supposed sprachbund isn't, either. Benwing (talk) 04:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The material is sourced. It could be rephrased to comply to NPOV policy. I don't have any idea why a scholarly view should be widely accepted for being encyclopedic, or please find sources that reject the theory convincingly. Rokus01 (talk) 07:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You seem to completely misinterpret the WP:NPOV; read it and you'll see that fringe scientific opinions do not bear inclusion. Read glottalic theory and you'll see that it's no longer widely accepted (if it ever was). Benwing (talk) 05:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

removal

The existence of this feature in Northwest Caucasian languages - a language family that might have reached geographically to the Indo-European homelands -, added to the poor vowel system and glottalic consonants apparently shared between PIE and NW Caucasian, may hint at an early Sprachbund as substantiated in 1995 by Marek Zvelebil in his Neolithic creolisation hypothesis. Likewise, linguist Peter Schrijver speculates on the reminiscent lexical and typological features of a family of languages featuring complex verbs, of which the Northwest Caucasian languages might have been the sole survivors.

I have removed the text highlighted above, for the following reasons: a) The "Neolithic creolization hypothesis" is completely unrelated to Kortland's view as expressed in his paper(reference 1), so that while the first sentence is talking apples, the second is talking oranges. It would be confusing to keep the two. b) This article is ultimately about just one aspect of Indo-European phonology, not about the prehistory of Indo-Europeans, so that one reference to a hypothesized Sprachbund should be more than enough.KelilanK (talk) 12:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

You are right about B (this might be better somewhere else), though you have to understand that as soon as geographic distribution becomes important, this will need some contextual information or footnote, also here.

Concerning A: Apples and oranges together make fruit. Likewise, working on an encyclopedia involves compiling related information. As long this compiled information tegether doesn't intend to create new arguments and SYN, like here, this is perfectly valid.

• On this basis, I would like to hear your arguments as to why you think Kortlandt's Sprachbund proposal involving NW Caucasic languages does not belong to the same category as Peter Schrijver's research on reminiscent "NW Caucasian"-like influences on languages in Western Europe, and the Neolithic creolisation theory that describes the prehistoric conditions towards the hypothetized sprachbund that might have facilitated this feature in more detail.

Rokus01 (talk) 14:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The Neolithic Creolization Hypothesis favors the "Broad homeland" hypothesis, the idea of a vast dialect continuum and is essentially based on archeology. It does not necessarily involves contacts with the Caucasus area - perhaps even on the contrary, it may be incosistent with the idea of a particularly close contact with NW Caucasian as opposed to multifarious "hunter-gatherer" groups. Kortlandt's view, on the other hand, is strictly grounded in linguistic typology and shared phonological features. His paper makes no reference to to the NCH, and it would constitute original research to merge both hypotheses into a single "applorange". As for the mention of Schrijver's research, it could be readded after a bit of rewriting, sure (i.e., it should be restated briefly), but I still think that we shouldn't give undue weight to these theories in an article about something as specific as the Centum-Satem isogloss of IE. Having a reference to Kortlandt's paper in passing would do, methinks...KelilanK (talk) 14:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it was not my intention to merge different underpinning hypotheses. Kortlandt wrote his piece in advance of NCH and clearly based himself to the Steppe theory, while Peter Schrijver took into consideration a kind of Neolithic Non-IE(!) "Wave of Advance", that might have reached the Caucasus as well as western Europe: basically to identify the linguistic substrate. NCH would in my interpretation be compatible to both. Instead, the key question that should emerge here is: Did this particular type of substrate work on PIE, or separate on each evolving branch? Schrijver suggests that the process may have been local in western Europe. This requires a little tweak, from "a language family that might have reached geographically to the Indo-European homelands" to "a language family of which the Northwest Caucasian languages might have been the sole survivors, that would have reached geographically to the European homelands as well as to western Europe where, according to Peter Schrijver, such kind of languages featuring complex verbs left a local lexical and typological reminiscence." Rokus01 (talk) 15:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Greek-Turkish graphic inaccuracy

Gosh (gulp)! The second map has the line running right across the middle of Turkey. Now, I presume that Wikipedia is not redoing the work of Mustafa Kemal and Woodrow Wilson and that no zealots are trying to start a war here. The line runs along the coast of Turkey and all parties are interested in keeing it that way, so why don't we be also? Can someone produce another map redrawing that line?Dave (talk) 05:05, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

PS. Ever listen to the radio in 1943? Along with the fishies who swam and swam all over the dam and the mares eat oats and does eat oats but little lambs eat ivy is one that goes "now it's Istanbul not Constantinople .. why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turks!" sung to the tune of "puttin' on the Ritz." The map is so small scale it may not make any difference but I would say - in fact I definitley will say - definitely - Istanbul is a Turkish city and has not been Greek-speaking Constantinople since the Parthenon was blown up as an ammunition storage dump. Can we come up to date here? It does say "modern."Dave (talk) 05:18, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Tocharian graphic inaccuracy

Although Tocharian "ain't been blue" on our map it needs to be. The discovery that it is centum is part of the reason why the isogloss can't be viewed as a nodal split of Indo-European. Whoever corrects the other map should correct this one also.Dave (talk) 09:09, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Dravidian

In the second map, Southern India is shown as "Satem". Actually, it speaks non-Indo-European Dravidian parlance.