Talk:Scott Sonnon

PoV allegation

It is obvious this article is biased and written by a fan or a group of people affiliated with the man discussed. Therefore the POV tag has been added. User:59.177.4.2121:19, 24 March 2006

It is more obvious that this ongoing slagging of the individual is being conducted by the group (www.russianmartialart.com) wishing to defame him. It's obvious they're disputing this literal history in order try and somehow discredit the individual in question, as they have an obvious history of doing so just be doing a google search. — Preceding unsigned comment added by B-ham (talk • contribs)

Please do not speculate on other editors' motives, see WP:AGF and WP:NPA. The article reads like an advertisement, and quotes exactly zero external verifiable sources for any of this. It needs to establish the notability of the subject using verifiable reliable sources. And the adspeak has to go... I tagged it with a couple of cleanup tags to show the article is work in progress; that should give the article a bit of time so we can see if there is any hope it can be improved. Weregerbil 06:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

False, I originally wrote the article (but it looks like it was originally deleted and recreated since I last checked) and I'm not affiliated nor a major fan (though I do like some of his ideas). I mean honestly, you don't accuse fans of Shakespeare for writing the Shakespeare article. Furthermore, anyone can edit in criticism. Tyciol 20:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The sources used for various material on this page do not meet the standards for verifiability. The "sources" invariably reference either magazine articles written by minor media outlets who cite Sonnon as their only source, or are links to catalog pages for products that contain direct reproductions of material from Sonnon's website. There is also inaccuracy in some of the claims. One section of the article states that circular strength training is used as "the" conditioning method of the US Army; the cited source says CST is "an" official conditioning method of the US Army combatives school. If Sonnon's methods were endorsed by the US Army as their official PT system, that would imply widespread endorsement and adoption of his ideas by a reputable source, something that has not happened. Moreover, I not been able to find verification of this fact on any US military site, including the school of combatives. At this time, it appears that Sonnon is a minor figure in the world of commercial fitness products and a formerly major figure in American Sambo, and this article should be edited to reflect that fact.Soft helion (talk) 17:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Student of Systema?

The article says he studied under Alexey Kadochnikov, the founder of Kadochnikov Systema, therefore implying that he studied Kadochnikov Systema, and yet Sonnon himself says in this interview: "have no idea what any "Systema’ teaches and, frankly, I don't care" therefore he didn't study systema. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.17.135.140 (talk) 04:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

When Sonnon says this he is referring to Ryabko's Systema. He also makes it clear in the article that he in fact trained ROSS; which as we all know branched out from Kadochnikov Systema. The point he is trying to make is that his work is unique. However, the fact still remains he has a connection to Systema. --Mista-X 03:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I think 'as we all know' is a bit of an exaggeration, I doubt many people are versed in the lineage of various Russian martial arts. These is a similar lack of popular knowledge for pretty much any kind of fighting school descendency. Look at what a nightmare the various Japanese/Chinese lineage systems are to discern. Anyway, in an attempt to clarify this confusion... this 'ROSS' thing uses either the term 'System' or 'Sistema' rather than 'Systema' in the title, so maybe that is part of it? I will have to check how SS phrases this in the URL submitted by IP70, but perhaps he calls it ROSS more frequently than Systema if that is what he trained in as Mista has said.

Alright, I think I figured this out. Actually, I can't find anything saying he is a student of Kadochnikov (did this wiki article say that previously, are you referring to?). The martialist article 70 linked to does mention the name in this sentence: "in Russia there are as many "Systema" as there are "Russian Martial Art" systems: Kadochnikov, Belov, Spas, Skobar, Sobor, Buza, Golitsin, ROSS, RRB, Kolo, Rukopashni Boi, Ryabko, Sidorov, Slavyano Goretskaya Bor'ba, et cetera. In recent years this list has grown beyond what I experienced" As you can see, also bolded ROSS since that's what he does mention having been affiliated with (though he calls it "American Annex to the Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art"). On the wikiarticle for that he is also listed as the former North American director (the martialist article says he resigned over some kind of disagreement on ranking systems, specifics are a bit confusing to).

As for where Alexey Kadochnikov could come into things, the ROSS founder Alexander Retuinskih has Kadochnikov listed as one of 6 teachers who taught him (specifically "instructor of hand-to-hand combat") the other 5 teaching Sambo. This leads me to believe that while Kadochnikov's Systema is 'related to' ROSS, considering the partnership between these two ended in 1991 and Sonnon was licensed in ROSS 5 years later (1996) I don't think there is anything indicating that he studied under Kadochnikov or that Kadochnikov's Systema played any predominant part in his training (it looks like something studied to expand his knowledge in Sambo/Sombo). So... basically it's good 70 pointed this out, because if this was ever in the article at some point, it would be an unsourced mistake. Tyciol (talk) 23:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Is it propaganda?

I do not like the article about Mr. Sonnon. IMHO I think Wikipedia is paying too much honor and fame to a normal guy. He is not an Olympic athlete, a famous actor, a scientist, a war hero. He is just a martial trainer.--jackjack 20:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

A normal guy? He's a world champion in two different martial arts, a multiple time USA National Team Coach, multiple time author, producer, Ultimate Fighting Championship conditioning and sport psychology coach, an inventor with multiple patents in strength equipment, a prolific publisher featured in many magazines and covers, an inductee into the martial art hall of fame and the fitness hall of fame. That's hardly normal. --B-ham 1 November 2007 (UTC)

All of those things may be true, but the notability criteria here requires reliable sources to substantiate those claims ... find some citations independent of the subject's own website, i.e., from responsible, main-stream publications ... see Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Citing sources if you are unclear about the concept of Attribution ... Happy Editing! —72.75.79.128 (talk · contribs) 21:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The references above did indeed have independent literary sources cited in the wiki before it was blotted out. I understand (now) that attribution must be independent of the wiki topic, but not only were those points erased, but all points even those with properly Wikipedia:Citing sources. Can it be repaired? --B-ham 1 November 2007 (UTC)

He is definitely not a world champion in two martial arts. The San Shou "title" is from a single fight in an event that doesn't seem to be recognized anywhere. To claim it as a legitimate world title is obvious self-marketing. The purpose of this wikipedia article seems to be to advertise Mr. Sonnon's website and services.213.243.171.56 (talk) 00:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

MENSA

The source on this is from the subject's website; so a better source is needed. --Mista-X (talk) 04:27, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I deleted all non-sourced claims, including the MENSA reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.89.255.141 (talk) 07:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the MENSA reference yet again. Why is this non-sourced information being added? Who is editing this page?MMAEditing (talk) 09:49, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The Mensa reference has been readded with an improved, third-party reference. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 22:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Place of birth

Category:Place of birth missing (living people) I noticed this tag here, I deactivated it (talk pages don't belong in this category) and whomever added it, please sign when you put things like that on the talk page. Tyciol (talk) 20:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Sonnon's master of sport

Russkisambofederation, Sonnon's own site says Honourable Master of Sport, which was awarded by the AASF. If you have information that proves the contrary over this, please present it before undoing my revisions with seemingly no forethought. HolJah (talk) 03:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

mthai66 (talk) I have information to the contrary. How would you like me to present it? —Preceding undated comment added 03:43, 5 December 2009 (UTC).

References/highlights

I noticed that a lot of these did have URLs for references. Some of them were not properly ref-tagged so I added those. Some of the ref tags are repetetive though, but I don't know how to do that special thing where you direct to the same source multiple times in a page. I notice someone did that a couple times so if you could also do it for the ones I added [ref][/ref] to that would be helpful.

There are a lot of different organizations listed in the article and in the 'career highlights'. In particular, the three halls of fame are listed in both. Since they are already listed in the highlights, would anyone be adverse to removing them from the 'training' section introduction? It's a bit repetetive, and while they are more recent events than the other highlights, I don't see why they stand out more than the other accomplishments so as to be specially mentioned, especially since it is in the same section. It is also strange because they are listed first, normally you would list the oldest events first and the more recent ones last. So, if somebody agrees then please remove that since it is already on the list (which someone arranged in chronological order, so it's easier to understand).

In general, despite the references, I know very little about these various organizations and teams which are listed. I turned them into links to encourage people who know about them to find references and to create Wikipedia articles for them. Keep in mind that they will probably be targeted for removal by deletionists so please only create an article after having acquired proper references which can be immediately incorporated to secure an article's future. If these terms do not warrant articles it would be helpful to redirect them to other articles (perhaps a 'list of' article) which mentions it in a short summary along with similar organizations. I just think it is strange that if these things are being used as sources of notability that they don't have articles themself.

I can understand that SS is perhaps more well known than any single one of these, but these things may have rich histories (perhaps they have articles in the language of the countries' specific origins?) and may be linked to other notable people in the martial arts or police/military worlds who similarly refer to them but have no article to link to. Tyciol (talk) 20:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Quotes

I wonder, is it harder to get a collection on 'Wikiquotes'? He has a lot of lectures on various articles/vids that could be quoted. I like what he said recently too: "suck it" heh. Tyciol (talk) 21:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)