Talk:Karl Marx

Did Marx saw himself as a Communist?

Well, the question might be rather strange, but I ask it anyway. I read a line once that was described as a quote of a saying by Marx himself. It stated something like "I am not a Marxist". Unfortunately, I do neither recall the exact words of it nor where I read it, not even if it was credible in the context I read it.

From a biographical viewpoint I would find it interesting to know if Marx really thought himself to be a Marxist/Communist and not only as a practical philosopher. I would compare that question to the case of Machiavelli who wrote "The Prince", a "manual" for monarchs, while it is sometimes argued by experts of the matter that Machiavelli was in reality a Republican. Finding an answer for this question might provide another interesting information about the person of Marx himself that could be added to the article. 217.236.30.141 (talk) 18:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The famous remark by Marx to the effect that he was not a Marxist certainly does need context. In a nutshell, Marx came into conflict with the 'Marxist' wing of the French Socialists and said that if their politics represented Marxism, 'I myself am not a Marxist.' Marx was making the point that his thought was being misrepresented by people who he profoundly disagreed with. Inevitably, the phrase has often been reproduced without the context. You can read a full outline of this at: http://libcom.org/forums/thought/im-not-a-marxist As for the question of Marx considering himself a communist, there really can be no doubt on this point. Marx was active in communist politics and writing on communist theory long before he wrote the Manifesto of the Communist Party. In addition, the questioner seems to conflate Marxism and communism but it is worth bearing in mind that it is entirely possible to be a communist without being a Marxist. --The Cosmopolite (talk) 15:58, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

bettering the bio

I find the bio section rather poor, it is sketchy and poorly written, it fails to give a summary either way. Example: 'During the first half of the 1850s the Marx family lived in poverty and constant fear of creditors in a three room flat on Dean Street in Soho, London. Marx and Jenny already had four children and three more were to follow. Of these only three survived to adulthood. Marx's major source of income at this time was Engels, who was drawing a steadily increasing income from the family business in Manchester.' Now, we have not even been introduced to Engels yet, not knew anything about him (it isn't even linked to his bio) to the new reader these stuff throws them off. Anyone who knows Marx's life better....would you tidy this up? Diabulos (talk) 18:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree and question why there are seperate Biography and Career sections. I know of know other biography article on wikipedia which uses this structure and it is confusing to the reader . What is the difference between them? Surely a career is best decribed within the biography. I propose they are merged into one biography along the lines of.

Biography

-Early life in Germany

-Exile in Paris and Brussels

-Exile in London

Lumos3 (talk) 13:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Article avoids mentioning that Karl Marx himself was baptized a Lutheran

The article mentioned that his father converted to Lutheranism, but leads the reader to believe that Karl himself somehow remained a Jew. This is false. Karl's mother was baptized a Lutheran, and young Karl himself was baptized in the same church as his father, in Trier, in 1824 at the age of six. I edited the article to reflect this fact. It's funny. Many of the categories at the bottom of the page list Marx as being a Jew. Not one of them refer to the fact that he was a Lutheran, albeit a lapsed one, and only ethnically Jewish. ----Jacob Davidson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 15:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

henry george

Can we have a citation? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:52, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Missing link

Eleanor is not linked in the list of Marx's children (I can't do it because the article is locked). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.198.107 (talk) 14:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I've done that for you. Why not create an account? It only takes a couple of seconds.FrFintonStack (talk) 15:58, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Confused first paragraph

I've reworded the first paragraph as it contains a number of errors. Firstly, Marx used the term 'socialism' and 'communism' interchangably: it was Lenin who introduced the idea of socialism as a transitionary state. Secondly, and relatedly, it then presents the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' as the state form when communism is achieved. This is not the case, as firstly, in Marxist theory, there is no state under communism. Moreover, the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' would make no sense in this context as at this stage classes have been dissolved and there is thus no proletariat to rule. The dictatorship of the proletariat is the transitionary phase between capitalism and communism.FrFintonStack (talk) 15:03, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Historical materialism

The article states:

Critics have also claimed to have shown problems with the concept of historical materialism. At the base of historical materialism, they claim, is the view that the mode of production creates all historical events and changes

There are two problems here. Firstly is that the reference given does not refer the reader to any of these critics or the problems they identify, but to Marx's own Poverty of Philospohy. The second, which is rather more difficult to resolve, is that historical materialism is not Marx's concept; rather it was coined and formulated by Engels after Marx's death and later refined by Lenin. Therefore, criticism of the theory isn't that relevant to a page on Marx himself and would be better on one dedicated to Marxist thought. The confusion may derive from Marx's concept of dilectical materialism, which is superficially similar, but is less deterministic and teleological and with greater room for agency.FrFintonStack (talk) 17:35, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

the words "and Arab" in section Marx and antisemitism

In section Marx and antisemitism, the phrase: "the Jewish Question' influenced National Socialist, as well as Soviet and Arab anti-Semites" has been revised twice recently, making me think there is a low-grade edit war brewing. User:KingOtherstuff removed "and Arab" on December 5, 2008, saying "The word is not in the sources. Obviously it was added later on." Then User:Vision Thing added "and Arab" back on December 19, 2008. Is there a disagreement regarding whether the sources include the words "and Arab"? Can one of you defend your position? Thanks.—GraemeMcRae^talk 22:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I looked at the sources some of which are available online and although I think the sentence is basically correct, I did not find such a correlation discussed. I think the removal of the word Arab is justified. Marx can take credit for many things but not for that...

Come to think of it, the assoicaiton with the Nazis is also problematic. European antisemitism as a whole - yes, but to specifically make him responsible for the Nazis is overkill. I did find a reference in Muravchik, who discusses the Marxist origins of Fascism. Muravchik states that Marx advocated the extermination of "reactionary races" (see pages 164-165) and connects this to Hitler's policies. Muravchik found a speech of Hitler in which he addressed Marx "on the Jewish question" (specifcally) and then rejects it as insufficient. The association is problematic because Hitler hated Marx and all he stood for, so clearly Hitler would never admit to being influenced by Marx.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1893554457/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop?v=search-inside&keywords=marx+nazi&go.x=16&go.y=11&go=Go!#

In this letter Marx describes Lasalle as a Jewish nigger:

the Marx letter" http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm

Its Engels who talked about reactionary races. see the last line of this letter

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1849/01/13.htm

Telaviv1 (talk) 18:19, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

"In a letter to Engels, Marx referred to Ferdinand Lasalle as a "Jewish Nigger"." (Der Briefwechsel zwischen F. Engels und K. Marx) - So does that mean that Marx wrote to Engels in English, and not in German? I was under the impression that they wrote to each other in German, but maybe that is wrong. However, if this letter was originally written in German, then the translator to English translated the German word to "nigger". That seems unusual, as German doesn't have such a word. Just a question - it seems impossible to find accurate information on the Net on the source of that letter and if it was translated from German to English or not.Jimhoward72 (talk) 15:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Marx's death and his body

The article seems to lack how he died and where his body is. I don't have the knowledge about this, so it would be great if anyone can give any information about this. I actually am very interested in him.

--Malik Al Assad (talk) 04:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Karl Marx died of (probably) a stroke. As one Marxist said; he had spent a good deal of his life drinking beer and smoking heavily, it is hardly surprising he died when he did. Engles commented that Marx died quickly, without suffering.Johnwrd (talk) 20:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

First sentence

should say he was a German JEW, not just a German. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.34.140.221 (talk) 03:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Why? RolandR (talk) 08:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

No. Plrk (talk) 08:24, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it should simply say he was a member of the European Boureoisie...

He wasn't Jewish (he had been baptised) and was opposed to religion. Telaviv1 (talk) 08:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

At first I thought the poster of this was trying to make a petty insult, but then I stumbled across this biography of Marx.

http://www.notablebiographies.com/Ma-Mo/Marx-Karl.html

It says he is from a long line of Rabbis and was barred from law practice because if it. Williamrmck (talk) 14:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't notice that it then said that his father converted to Lutheran. But it should be noted that he is from a formerly Jewish family, even if it was before he was born. Williamrmck (talk) 14:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

That information is indeed noted, in the appropriate place, in our article. The disagreement was whether the first sentence, which currently states that he was a German philosopher, should instead state that he was a German Jew. Three editors have independently opposed this. Marx was baptised, and never identified as a Jew; to so describe him in the first sentence would be giving weight to this aspect of his family background. To describe someone as a Jew is not, of course, an insult; but it is frequently intended as such. RolandR (talk) 14:56, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

media

why this audiofile from a speech of Kennedy about Marx? (with an offensiv Background) thi has nothing to do with the person or the Work of Marx and it is not neutral! it is offensiv! you can also maybe take a audiofile on the site on Kennedy contains a bad joke about Kennedy...it makes no sense! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielkreuzner (talk • contribs) 15:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Statelessness @ death

This is misleading. Marx was born in what would become (after c. 1870) the nation of Germany, but did not live there as that nation-state came into existence. Having married a UK citizen and raised children there he may have been implicitly an imperial subject/british citizen. If he was explicitly denied or refused the later, that should be sourcable. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 01:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Marx was only married to Jenny Marx. The suggestion he was 'Stateless' at death may not be wrong. The children of Marx born in London would not have any 'Right' to British Citizenship. A Quirky point of English Law was that people born in England (even 'English' people), had no right to automatic citizenship.

Did Karl Marx ever marry a UK citizen? The only marriage I know of (and the article knows of) took place in the Rhineland to Jenny von Westphalen, a citizen of the Prussian Rhineland, on 1843-06-19, -- the marriage lasting until her death in December 1881. -- The suggestion that raising children in the UK can makes one implicitly a British subject sounds like a reflection of 21st-century sentimentality rather than any application of 19th-century citizenship laws. Do we have sources? -- On Marx's own attitude to the matter of his personal citizenship: he did make attempts to regain his rights as a Prussian citizen, see: Padower, Saul K., ed. (1969). "Letter 341: To Ferdinand Lassalle (in Berlin) London, May 29, 1861". The letters of Karl Marx: selected and translated with explanatory notes and an introduction. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall. p. 462. ISBN 0-13-531533-6. [Note 7:] In April, 1861, while Marx was in Berlin, he applied for a restoration of his Prussian citizenship; despite Lassalle's efforts, the application was rejected in November, 1861. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |chapterurl=, |nopp=, and |month= (help); Text "editor-link" ignored (help); Text "editorn-link" ignored (help) -- Marx himself explained his situation and attitudes in 1861: "... I have no passport except an old French expulsion pass of 1849. ... To have myself naturalized as an Englishman (as Freiligrath, Bucher, Zimmermann, etc, did) and to travel with an English passport, I also did not want. ... In 1845, when the Prussian government persecuted me in Belgium, I obtained through my brother-in-law an emigration certificate from Prussia. Under the pretext that I ceased to be a Prussian subject, I was, as is known, expelled by the Prussian government in 1849. Legally, however, all refugees living ten years outside the country also ceased to be Prussian "subjects." I have never let myself be naturalized abroad. Furthermore, pursuant to the decision of the Preliminary Parliament in 1848 -- a decision accepted as valid by all German governments at the election to the Frankfurt Parliament -- refugees, even those who, like Vogt, etc., had become naturalized abroad could again claim their right as German citizens and be elected everywhere to the Parliament. Based on this, I requested in 1848 that my Prussian citizenship be reintegrated. The then Prussian Ministry rejected the request, but dared to treat me as a foreigner only after the revolution was defeated ..." -- Padower, Saul K., ed. (1969). "Letter 336: To Ferdinand Lassalle (in Berlin) Zalt-Bommel,, March 7, 1861". The letters of Karl Marx: selected and translated with explanatory notes and an introduction. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall. p. 462. ISBN 0-13-531533-6. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |chapterurl=, |nopp=, and |month= (help); Text "editor-link" ignored (help); Text "editorn-link" ignored (help) -- Pedant17 (talk) 11:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Karl "Charlie" Marxs?????

In "Introducing Marx" the author claims that Karl Marx's real name was Charles is there any proof of this?

I think what he says is that in English the name would be Charles, rather than Karl. -- Pauric (talk-contributions) 23:39, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Languages

It would be interesting to know what languages, other than German, Marx spoke or wrote in. Sca (talk) 16:58, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

"karl marx looks like a homeless guy"

I just noticed this to the right of "The younger Karl Marx." Anyone how to remove it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Festivalfreak (talk • contribs) 22:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Quote Regarding his views on Russia

Man I am having the hardest time trying to remember this Quote of Marx, where he talked about the unlikelihood of a communist revolution in Russia, does anyone have it? It might help with the article, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.203.166 (talk) 14:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

There might be something useful here or here or here. Cosmic Latte (talk) 14:50, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

This is relevant material but we need to be careful. For one thing, Marx himself wrote in one of the later introductions to the Manifesto (the translation into Russion obviously) that he was actually hopeful for a revolution in Russia. More importantly, Marx did not consider himself a prophet. He made pronouncements based on the data that was available to him at the time. I think with Marx there is always a presumption that new data can change the pronouncement. Let's put it this way: if Marx didn't think a revolution was likely in Russia - he was right! No revolution in Russia occured or succeded during Marx's life-time! My point is that whatever quote we find ... what is the context? And how will we contextualize it? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:55, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Someone should carefully edit this article as it has been hacked intoCubFanAl (talk) 02:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Um, what? How does one "hack into" an article that anyone can edit in the first place? Cosmic Latte (talk) 02:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I assume you were referring to this? If so, I've gone ahead and fixed it. Thanks for pointing it out. Cosmic Latte (talk) 03:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Image:Marx outside the Bank of England

Image:Marx outside the Bank of England.jpg showes a man on a demonstration in London who waves a flag which seems to show the portrait of Karl Marx together with a parole which is difficult to read. I don't think that this picture belongs into the article since it only represents the point of view of the man holding the flag. We don't know who and how relevant he is. To include the picture would turn the article into a soap-box for this particular man and the demonstration in which he takes part. The claim that this protest-march has been inspired by Karl Marx would still need a reliable source. --Schwalker (talk) 13:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

So what if it only represents the man's POV? The money of Marx only represents the GDR. The statue of Marx only represents that park in Budapest. The protest picture shows that a man who died in the 1880s is still relevant in contemporary society, which is perfect for the section Marx's influence. --Tocino 20:44, 4 April 209 (UTC)

We don't even know the man's name, nor the political party which he may be member of, and represent with his flag. Marx did not critisize finance, money or the banking system, but capitalism. On the contrary did he critisize his contemporaries, who tried to reform capitalism by the abolishment of money. That is why it seems possible that the flagwaver or his organization (who we don't know) actually only uses Marx' picture without having understood his theory. --Schwalker (talk) 09:33, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Career Section... Marx in London

In the last line of the last paragraph we read, "In his correspondence with Vera Zasulich, Marx contemplated the possibility of Russia's bypassing the capitalist stage of development and building communism on the basis of the common ownership of land characteristic of the village mir.[citation needed]" I do not know of a citation to support this via the correspondence with Zasulich, but this point is verifiable in Marx's preface to the Russian edition of The Communist Manifesto, published in 1882, which is directly quoted in the section on "Marx's influence".--Revihs (talk) 03:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Private Statement

This article claims to be on Karl Marx as a "philosopher, political economist, historian, political theorist, sociologist, humanist and revolutionary".

In its last paragraph, the article quotes from a private letter on a private issue, which was not intended for publication, nor refers to any of the fields for which Marx is considered to be relevant.

In accordance with Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Presumption in favor of privacy: ″When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic.″

Moreover, in a recently disputed version, the article claimed: "Lasalle's own writings are filled with similar language".

As far as I can see, the book by Lindemann does not claim that Lasalle had made a statment similar to that of Marx. This article should avoid to label Lasalle an antisemitist, which would turn him into a culprit just because he had been the object of Marx' statement , of which Lassalle probably even did not know.

Since there is much to say about the poltical differences between Marx and Lasalle, but this issue is totally private, I have removed both Marx' statement and the misleading comment on Lasalle. --Schwalker (talk) 19:10, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, no, but Lindemann says "Lasalle's own writings are filled with similar langauge" -- just that, in the very context we're working with as background. In any case, I approve getting rid of the private statement, since it carries undue weight, especially in light of the mainstream view of Marx as quite progressive-minded, including on Jewish emancipation and race, as my own reverted edit of his commentary clarified. PasswordUsername (talk) 19:27, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Marx is not a living person so BLP doesn't refer to him, but if removal of reference to Lasalle will settle recent dispute, I'm ready to get rid of it. -- Vision Thing -- 19:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

You're correct about that; I, though, said nothing about BLP. Undue weight is a separate policy. You deleted my additions balancing out your edit in the name of keeping the "consensus version" (an unofficial policy, btw) that was created in August 2008. (It's archived here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Karl_Marx/Archive_5#Marx_and_anti-semitism_edits). But I was balancing out what you added after the so-called "consensus version" was reached - (see http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Karl_Marx&oldid=235477337).

What happened to that? Either respect the consensus or not. You can't have it both ways. PasswordUsername (talk) 19:42, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I didn't add that part, it was added later by someone else. -- Vision Thing -- 19:52, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I guess that's alright. You were doing your darndest to police the version when not working on laissez-faire economics, but the negative edits to the set-in-stone consensus version just happened to slip your eye. No biggie: that sometimes happens to the best of us. PasswordUsername (talk) 20:10, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Did England make a true example study for Capital?

When Marx was writing Capital, men like Darwin were pointing out that 'Islands are often note worthy for their ridiculous species of Animals, think of Galapagos and the biggest 'Island of all' Australia'. Perhaps Marx should have kept that in mind when studying the Island of Britain. Britain, with it's secure, privileged Middle Class, and it's chaotic working Class, bred for nothing more than to provide cheap labour and cannon fodder, could hardly have been a more ridiculous case study for economics. Could an Economic and social system like England ever have survived on the Continent? the answer has to be "no". Capital, should always be read in the light of it's 'inadequate guinea pig'.Johnwrd (talk) 20:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Most of Europe's working class were worse off than the working class in Britain at that time, mainly because countries like Germany and Italy were still catching up with Britain (which was, lets not forget, the mother of industrialisation) and in Britain the money was beginning to trickle down. People in Britain were better off by 1900 than they had been in 1800, before the Industrial Revolution, (not just the middle class who had worked their way up but the working class who found that food, fuel etc was cheaper and so took up less of their income). Life expectancy was up, education was mandatory (the three R's), Unions had been legalised and were growing in influence, the franchise had been extended repeatedly, and workers could afford to eat meat much more than previously (seemingly trivial but not so at the time), and in 1911 the old age pension would be introduced. Of course conditions were still terrible but one of the main reasons communism never flourished in Britain (and the more mild Labour party won instead) was because, in comparison to the conditions in many other countries, the people of Britain were well off. And in comparison to Russia the working class were virtually rich, (90% of Russians were serfs until the 1850s, whereas in Britain most people hadnt been serfs for 600 years).Willski72 (talk) 15:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

England was ideal subject for Marx's research for Capital as it was the world's first fully developed industrial capitalist society. Parker1parker (talk) 10:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Academic and placement issues regarding the first section

The paragraphs in the first section which attempt to outline much of his ideology seem extraordinarily out of place; the primary source here is "The Communist Manifesto" which, despite being one of the most widely read pieces by Marx, does not provide a particularly clear conceptual framework, and only serves to outline the ideas he was to vastly elaborate on (particularly in Das Kapital, but elsewhere as well). Thus it represents a very limited view of Marx's contributions to philosophy, sociology, economics, history, and social theory, and instead only presents the views of his work as a radical agitator (the Manifesto was written in the spirit of the 1848 revolutions, after all).

I would suggest moving this summation to other parts of the article in order to provide a more balanced perspective of Marx and Marx's work, one which can do justice to the important contributions he has made to academic discourse while at the same time stressing his importance in the development of Communism, instead of trying to squish the two together in a summary which leaves people with the impression that the ideas present in the Manifesto are all Marx contributed to academics. Anyone with me? Undeniably (talk) 07:04, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

No objection - but we have to keep a balance, between the academic marx and the activist marx. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, Picture?

Does someone else find issue with a picture of a guy playing a recorder as a picture of Karl Marx?

It was a vandal - I've reverted the changes. Please feel free to revert and warn any editor that does stuff like that.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the revert. I saw it last night when I referenced the Marx entry while working on another article and meant to figure out how to fix it this morning, but fortunately you beat me to it. For future reference, I'm new to Wiki editing (one of those "long time listener, first time caller" type situations) and have never done a revert before. Can someone tell me briefly how to do that or point me to the Wiki instructions? Thanks. EnRealidad (talk) 16:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

There's "STFU your MUM" written underneath the top picture of KM. I have issues with that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vecinadeblog (talk • contribs) 19:16, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

German?!

This article states that Karl Marx was a German philosopher, political economist, historian, political theorist, sociologist, communist and revolutionary But during (most of) his lifetime Germany did not excist it was either Prussia or North-Germany. --82.134.154.25 (talk) 11:12, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

The concept of being "German" goes back way before the birth of modern Germany. See Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation as an example of identifying as German hundreds of years before Marx, and the German Confederation that succeeded it in 1815.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 12:12, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

See the footnote on the word "German". Without that explanatory footnote on Marx's statelessness I would object strenuously to the oversimplification of calling Marx "German" or a "German philosopher...". WP:MOSBIO recommends for an "Opening paragraph": "The opening paragraph should have: [...] 3 Nationality & ethnicity - 1. In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. [...] 2. Ethnicity or sexuality should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." -- Pedant17 (talk) 05:08, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

The "jew" categories are bit overdone on the English wikipedia

I have looked on the German, Russian, Italian, Dutch and French wikipedia Karl Marx articles. In none of them was he in one of the "jewish" categories.

The Dutch category listing was as follows (translated with google):

---

Marx | Atheist | Communist | German economists | German philosophers | German revolutionary | German sociologists | Historical Philosopher | eponym

---

The French categories (google translator):

---

Categories: People from Trier | German people of the nineteenth century | German philosophers | Philosophers of the nineteenth century | Political philosophers | Atheist philosophers | Marxist theorist and essayist | German economists | Classical economics | Sociologist | German founder of sociology | Communist | German Critique of Religions | Opponent of the death penalty | Members of the AIT | Stateless | German Journalist | Marxism | Karl Marx | 1818 births | 1883 deaths

---

The German one (google translator):

---

Categories: Reviews of | Karl Marx | Marxism | Capitalism | Socialism | Communism | philosopher (19. century) | Political philosophers | Economist (19.-century) | Classical economics | Kapitalismuskritik | Author | Journalist | Editor | revolutionaries | Young Hegelians | Student Corp. (19.-century) | German | births | 1818 deaths | 1883

---

All the other wikipedias that I mentioned have similar categories for that article.

The English wikipedia is somewhat unique with its habit to give the "jew badge" to people who aren't considered as jewish by any religious or worldly law.

Why the difference compared to the other wikipedias? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.31.188 (talk) 16:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:54, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

According to sources Karl Marx was born Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 13:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Correct. But he was baptised as a child and as an adult did not consider himself Jewish. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:59, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

But our article says, in relation to the father of Karl Marx, "…a year or so before Karl was born, his father—probably because his professional career required it—was baptized in the Evangelical Established Church. Karl was baptized when he was six years old." There is implication that the father (Heinrich Marx) did not exactly convert wholeheartedly. And we see that the boy (Karl Marx) did not undergo conversion until the age of six. Bus stop (talk) 15:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

We cannot make inferences. But if we were, I would infer that Heinrich wasn't so gung-ho about becoming a Christian - he chose to become a Lutheran in an area where everyone else was Catholic maybe as a little kind of protest about Christianity. His wife did not convert until after her parents died - not because she did not want to convert, but out of deference to her parents' feelings. People can have all sorts of reasons for doing and not doing things. One thing we do know: Heinrich was not shomrei mitzvot and did not maintain his ties with the Jewish community, and Karl was explicit that he did not view himself as a Jew or identify with other Jews. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:07, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

You say that "…Heinrich was not shomrei mitzvot…" Heinrich Marx need not have been "shomrei mitzvot" in order to be Jewish. Not being "shomrei mitzvot" would not cause him to be any less "Jewish." A large proportion of Jews for example in the United States today are nonobservant. They are nevertheless Jewish. Karl Marx was certainly Jewish until he was of age six. Whether he was technically Jewish after that can be debated. Christianity may maintain that a "lapsed Christian" is no longer Christian, but that is not necessarily the case with Judaism. Bus stop (talk) 16:57, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Knock-knock! I was just adding a fact. You come back with more speculation. Speculate all you want. Marx said he wasn't a Jew and no respected biographer or historian of Marx says he was a Jew. He wasn't a Jew. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:35, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

The categories relating to his Jewishness are correct though; beyond any doubt he was Jewish at least until the age of six. Perhaps I misunderstand your reason for saying that the father of Karl Marx, Heinrich Marx, was not "shomrei mitzvot." I don't see how this is applicable to the son's religious identity. Bus stop (talk) 17:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Why does the five year old Karl Marx have any significance? To answer your question, the point about shomrei mitzvot was in the same line as his hot having any ties to the Jewish community. The point is that there is no actual evidence of any Jewish sentiment on his part, and no evidence that marx grew up in a home that had ani Jewish influence. We can both speculate - we can speculate that Heinrich was an accomplished dancer or loved to cook. We just have no evidence. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Slrubenstein -- many would consider his Jewishness until his fifth birthday to be significant. I think editors should just report the facts that are supported by reliable sources. Readers can choose to dismiss those facts as not significant if they so choose. There are probably some readers who would find it notable that Karl Marx was born Jewish.

Concerning Karl Marx's father, Heinrich: his being nonobservant does not make him non-Jewish. And you are expressing concern that Karl Marx's childhood home lacked "Jewish sentiment." Bear in mind that the majority of American Jews today are nonobservant. Would you doubt that they are Jewish? And you are saying that you think I am "speculating" about something. Can you please tell me what you feel I am speculating about? Bus stop (talk) 23:30, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

(ec) What do you mean when you say Marx and his father were Jewish? Are you using a religious criterion, or an ethnic definition? In either case, if someone rejects this category, who are we to insist that it is applicable? RolandR 18:01, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

RolandR -- but Karl Marx was Jewish, at least until the age of five or six. Are you saying that the father, Heinrich Marx was not Jewish? The article says the opposite. Bus stop (talk) 18:13, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

No, I am asking what you mean when you say he was Jewish. My father is an optician; that doesn't make me an optician. RolandR 19:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

RolandR -- I am just assuming that the sources in the article which say he was Jewish are correct. Bus stop (talk) 19:42, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Jews are Jewish for life -- the issue here is not his Jewishness but Wikipedia policy as to what one may say about another when that person denies something. This is not a forum for discussing Judaism, for if it were, it would necessarily follow Jewish law -- but as we can all see, it does not. God demanded from Jean-Marie Lustiger, among others, an answer as to why he didn't sit in a succah and why he didn't put on tefillin each morning, but the majority of people on this planet, past + present, would disagree with this, despite the fact that I and some others see it as indisputable, objective fact. If Wikipedia were my diary, Karl Marx would be labelled as Jewish, but Wikipedia is not my diary. So while Bus stop is correct in stating that Marx was Jewish, he might be in violation of Wikipedia policy -- I don't know. Perhaps Bus stop himself will comment on my comment about his comments. :) DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 22:04, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

(un-indent) I don't think one need prove Karl Marx was Jewish at death in order for him to be included in the categories that the person opening this thread refers to. I should think that simply having been Jewish as a child satisfies the requirement that these categories require. Did not his childhood launch him on the trajectory that was his life? If we are to attach any significance to conversion, and Baptism, then of course we attach significance to his prior state. I am not saying that he was not a Jew all his life. But we know for sure that he was Jewish prior to Baptism at age six. Why the other Wikipedias may not include Karl Marx in the same categories is something I cannot answer. They would have to speak for themselves. Bus stop (talk) 22:36, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

It would be just as incorrect to include him in a category of Baptists, despite his baptism as a child. The fact of his birth to formerly Jewish parents, and of his (presumably non-voluntary) baptism at the age of five, were of no relevance to Marx, and therefore of no relevance to this article. I repeat my question: what do you mean when you say he was Jewish? (Maybe we should have a category for the people Isaac Deutscher described as "non-Jewish Jews?)RolandR 22:54, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

RolandR -- the mother of Karl Marx was Jewish at the time of the birth of Karl Marx. That is one of the two ways a person acquires Jewish identity. The other way (which is not relevant to this situation) is conversion. Bus stop (talk) 23:13, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course conversion is relevant, as Marx converted to Christianity and was brought up in a Christian household. It is true he was not a Christian prior to the age of 6. Clearly, any philosophical or political tracts he wrote as a five year old can be viewed as the work of a Jew. Um, did he do anything of signficance before he was baptized? Let's face it: Marx has an article in Wikipedia not because of his achievements as a five year-old, but because of what he wrote, almost entirely after 1846. When he was a Christian. Slrubenstein | Talk 07:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, you say that he "was brought up in a Christian household," but I think some doubt is cast on that. This article says that Marx's father converted, "probably because his professional career required it." Also, the Heinrich Marx article (on the father), says that Heinrich "converted to Lutheranism in order to be permitted to practice law." I think that casts doubt on how Christian the household was that Karl Marx grew up in. Are not both these articles citing practical rather than religious reasons for conversion to Christianity? Was Karl Marx a practicing Christian? Our article makes no mention of it. What we know is that Karl Marx was a Jew prior to the age of about 5 or six. And it was the Jew who grew into the giant of the twentieth century that we know as Karl Marx. Did Christianity have bearing on the adult that Marx grew into? I don't think our article on Marx makes mention of it. The inclusion in the categories, which is what the original question in this section was about, needs no more justification than that as a boy he was a Jew. Whether or not his father had to convert himself and his family to Christianity for practical, career-oriented reasons, should not cloud their Jewish background. This is not a black-and-white issue, and I don't presume to know clearly the relative inputs of the respective religions to the man's psyche. But it seems premature and un-thought out to consider removing Marx from Jewish-related categories, as is suggested in the initiating post of this thread. Bus stop (talk) 15:14, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I have not yet deleted any of the categories, so I guess i agree with you. Should they be cut? Not so long as the discussion is just between the two of us. Let's see if any others chime in with strong feelings about this, I think at least several people should agree to deleting them before they are deleted. howefully our dialogue will give other editors enough to make a decision on. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand your comment above, Slrubenstein. Who do you agree with? At the top of this thread, you agree with the IP proposal to delete the category, and that seems to be what you have argued so far. Do you now think that the category should be included? And if so, why? I think that it is mistaken to describe Marx as a Jew, or as a Christian. He was an atheist for all of his adult life, no-one has argued that his purely nominal Jewish or Christian family background had any effect whatsoever on his writings, and it would be at best meaningless to include either of these as a category. I would delete the category. Bus stop comments that Marx was not a practising Christian, so this category should not be included. But nor was he a practising Jew, so in facr he is apparently arguing against his own conclusion -- unless he insists that Marx was erhnically or culturally Jewish; in which case he must justify this usage of the term. RolandR 18:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

And it may be worth noting that even the Hebrew article does not include Marx in the category of German Jews. RolandR 18:48, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I am just sticking to facts. Marx was born a Jew. he was baptized at 6. He did not identify as a Jew, nor as a Christian. But Judaism is a racial and national category and not just a religion. There were Germans who considered him to be of the jewish race. Also, Jewish authorities are I believe divided as to whether baptism means that one is no longer Jewish. There are multiple points of view here, and you should know that Wikipedia deals with views, not truths. You ask me what side I am on. I thought I made that clear as day:I am on the side of further discussion. If others do not care to join the discussion, then I would say there is not enough weight to change the status quo. If many people register their opposition to these category links, well, I won't stop them. But the tags are not clearly wrong, they just represent one point of view. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:21, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

RolandR -- you refer to Karl Marx's "purely nominal…Jewish background," but if someone is nonobservant they aren't "nominally Jewish" but rather they are Jewish just as an observant Jew is Jewish.

To find Karl Marx's "family background" we would look to Karl Marx's mother and father. I've perused the Heinrich Marx article as well as this, the Karl Marx article, and I find nothing other than that Karl Marx's mother and father were Jewish. Bus stop (talk) 23:58, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

According to Judaism, Marx is Jewish. So have that in the article and it will be no different than anyone else who was Jewish but preferred to ignore or deny the ramifications? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 17:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

{undent} If judaeism is a religion Marx was not Jewish. He was an atheist. If being Jewish is an ethnic identity then Marx was Jewish. Either way this is a whole heap of debate over something of almost no relevance. Simonm223 (talk) 14:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Some would say this has a lot of relevance to how one reads Marx's essays On the Jewish Question. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

And others would disagree. If you can find a reliable source which makes this argument, it should certainly be mentioned in the article. Enzo Traverso, who discusses the essay at length in his book The Marxists and the Jewish Question, does not advance this argument. RolandR 16:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Simonm223, Atheism is very commonplace among Jews (just as it is among any group of people). Judaism posits the existence of G-d. But a person remains a Jew even if his faith falters. Different religions are different. What applies in one religion doesn't necessarily apply in another religion. Bus stop (talk) 15:37, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

What do the sources say? If the sources say "Marx was Jewish" then we have the category, if they do not say this, we can't. This entire discussion above shows an almost complete lack of referenced, verifiable citations and far too much personal opinion. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

As an additional comment, it is amazing how few articles are in the Category:Caucasian. If we are going to classify biographical articles by race, why not start with adding this one? Tim Vickers (talk) 00:13, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

theroists, marx, durkheim and weber

each of the classical theorists worried about the consequences of the division of labour - Maex in terms of alienation, Weber in terms of rationalisation and Durkheim in terms of anomies. can someone elaborate on this please... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.92.26 (talk) 19:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

There is a lot said about rationalization and its relationship with modernity to be found in the classical sociological texts, as well as in the work of Adorno, Bauman, and Habermas. But this is not a forum. --Tomsega (talk) 08:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

But these views can be discussed either in Capitalism or Modernity. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Herman Arnold Acosta

Why is Karl Marx named Herman Arnold Acosta in this article?121.97.56.2 (talk) 05:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Awful "Notable Ideas" section

The notable ideas section of Marx seems wholly insubstantial to convey to readers the essence of Marx's study and what he is actually notable for in academia. Instead of "notable ideas" it currently seems to be "those ideas of Marx most familiar to a high school or college student with a brief knowledge of his work".

Therefore we currently have:

Notable ideas Co-founder of Marxism (with Engels), surplus value, alienation and exploitation of the worker, The Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital, materialist conception of history

Where I would propose:

• Dialectical Materialism
• Historical Materialism
• A Critique of Political Economy (surplus-value, mode of production, relations of production, commodity fetishism)
• Ideology (as in ruling class ideology)

I would reject the idea of Marxism as one of his notable ideas as Marxism is the name given to his notable ideas, he didn't place these ideas into a specifically coherent ideology which he named Marxism. And of course in a discussion with French socialists who refereed to themselves as Marxists we see a scepticism I think around the use of the term. --Charlesbrophy (talk) 14:40, 16 December 2009 (UTC)