Talk:Aspic

Another contradiction

"Aspic is a dish..." "Aspic is an ingredient, not a dish" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.159.214.137 (talk) 05:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

addition

I added Cukor's 1933 film Dinner at Eight to the list of aspic in popular culture.

Contradiction/Mistake?

Aspic is made from gelatin. But gelatin is obtained from a protein found in skin, bones, and connective tissue. The article continues by saying that it is obtained from meat. However, your own article on gelatin itself says it is obtained from skin, bones, and connective tissue. This inconsistency needs to be addressed.

Merge

If there's a difference I don't see it. Although I always thought Aspic was only the fruity kind I can see now I was wrong. What's the commonest name for this kind of thing? Ewlyahoocom 15:30, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

No, the other two articles should be merged into terrine if anywhere as terrines are mostly stuff with a little jelly whereas aspic is mostly jelly wilth a little stuff. However, they are perhaps different enough from what people normally think of as a terrine that they should stand alone. I always thought aspics were savory, with meat or vegetables, as opposed to congealed salads which are fruity. BTW, my mother makes a mean tomato aspic.THB 06:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Merged into terrine? I'll have to assume you haven't looked at that article. Ewlyahoocom 09:44, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Pork_jelly may warrant a merger, but Head_cheese is defintiely its own beast. I'm removing that request for merger.JD79 04:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Could you please explain what you see as the significant differences between Head cheese and Aspic and Pork jelly. Here are some significant similarities. Can you guess which quotes come from which articles? Ewlyahoocom 06:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

...a gelatin (which would form from the bone marrow) containing any incidental meat which came off the head. The more modern method involves adding gelatin to meat, which is then cooked in a mold.

...is a dish in which ingredients are set into a gelatine, jelly-like substance made from a meat stock or consommé.... stock congeals because of the natural gelatin found in the meat... Almost any type of food can be set...Most common are meat pieces, fruits, or vegetables...Nearly any type of meat can be used to make the gelatin: beef, veal, chicken, or even fish.... may need additional gelatin in order to set properly...

... a mixture of leftover pig organs, such as trotters, ears and snouts... pickled in their own jelly. ... often prepared in a less grotesque version only using lean meat. ... placing lean pork meat, trotters, rind, ears and snout in a pot of cold water, and letting it cook over a slow fire for three hours... many alternate ways of preparing...such as the usage of celery, beef and even pig bones.... gelatine removed from the broth can be used as a jellying agent.

Head cheese and Pork jelly are probably the same (I would merge the Jelly into Head Cheese). And although Head Cheese is a kind of terrine, it's a unique kind of terrine with a unique preparation -- most terrines are made with ground meat, whereas head cheese starts by boiling the animal's head. Head cheese is DEFINITELY not an aspic. --216.220.248.74 22:44, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Just my 2 cents, but here goes:

Aspic has two classical definitions: (1) a "double" consomme which remains fairly stable at room temperature due to an excessive amount of protein. (2) a mold or form that is bound by a "double" consomme.

The first item was obviously the first to come about. A pig's head was simmered and the poaching liquid solidified when cooled. The meat and scrappings from the head were used in the heated broth to serve as soup but was soon eaten cold as well. Somebody came up with the great idea of customizing a form for this product so that it would look better on the plate. This gelatine bound mold was refered to by the name of the binder: aspic.

Now, the first liquid rendered from a pig's head wasn't perfectly clear. As culinarians found value in the protein rich stocks they were able to make, they decided to further enhance their presentation by clarifying them. This brought about the consomme and the classic techique of clarifying while still attempting to give back protein that was thought to be taken away in the clarifying process. The crystal clear "aspic" is the item we relate to clean, elegent, classic presentations. Because it was used in a number of different ways, it's texture had to be controlled after it was complete. In many instances additional gelatine had to be added to an aspic so that would have the strength to act as a liner on a platter... thus the introduction of additional gelatine. Those different aspic textures and flavors are also used to hold products together when molded.

There were and still are a couple ways to prepare an aspic mold. First, the ingredients, whatever they are, can be tossed together with a tempered aspic, molded, allowed to set and then presented unmolded on a plate or platter depending on the portion size prepared. Another method, calls for the mold to be coated with some aspic to create a hollow shell. The shell is filled with a salad or something along those lines and sealed with a layer of tempered aspic. Here you have a salad (?) literally enchased in aspic. The aspic gives the form without compromising the quality or texture of the salad.

The mold with the meat bound by gelatine is an aspic. But so isn't fruit bound in fruit flavored gelatine, or a tomato puree bound with gelatine, or a salad russe encased in gelatine. The term aspic is generic. The proper term that should be used to refer to the shredded and chopped meat bound by the liquid derived from simmering the pig's head is "brawn". A brawn is the the forerunner of what we refer to today as "head cheese".

That's enough from me.

Allan (chefgardemanger)

BTW, I have some info at the following address: http://www.gardemanger.com/aspic/aspic.html

Allan (chefgardemanger)

I grew up in Poland and can tell you that meat and fish aspic is not the same as pork jelly. Where the first two dishes are considered to be an entrée, and a somewhat of a delicacy, the pork jelly is in a much lower class, and would never be served at a dinner party. The purpose of making the meat and fish aspic is to entertain, and the purpose of making pork jelly is to preserve the leftovers for a later use.

-Agie

Discussion / decision??

It's great that a few individuals have contributed to this discussion. When or perhaps "how" does a decision come about as to what direction this page heads?

There is also a usage among tilers: 'aspic' means a certain type of cement used with ceramic and stone tile, as differentiated from laying such tile 'in mud.'

Historical Inaccuracy

The article states, "... and could coat cooked meat to keep it from spoiling by sealing it from the air."

This assertion is not supported in medieval cookbooks, including "Le Viandier". None of the medieval recipes I've seen for meat jellys make any mention about the preservation of meat. The usual emphasis is on presentation (the color of the jelly & the arrangement and variety of meats included).

Aspics may be used modernly to preserve meats, but this was not true during the medieval period.

--Doc 21:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe you are correct. The article is incorrect in stating that aspic can be used as a preservative. Aspic needs to be refrigerated because of its high protein content. Also, don't know how a decision is made to make a change.

Chefgardemanger