Talk:Comparison of Portuguese and Spanish

Personal infinitive

As far as I know, the fundamental difference between Portuguese and Spanish in what concerns the personal infinitive is that:

• both Portuguese and Spanish have sentences in which subjunctive is preceded by "que", but
• in Portuguese one can often replace "que"+subjunctive by the personal infinitive, whereas
• in Spanish we cannot do it because Spanish does not have the personal infinitive.

For instance:

1)

Es necesario que vengas acá.

É necessário que venhas cá.

É necessário vires cá.

It is necessary that you come here. (or, depending on the context: "It is necessary for you to come here.")

2)

Para que lleguemos temprano, necesitaremos apurarnos.

Para que cheguemos cedo, precisaremos nos apressar.

Para chegarmos cedo, precisaremos nos apressar.

For us to arrive early, we will need to hurry.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I remember of only one case in Portuguese where the infinitive cannot be replaced by the subjunctive, which is when making a more formal request. In this case, the infinitive is not personal. See:

Não fumem. (Don't smoke {a request}) -- imperative

Não fumar. (Don't smoke {a more formal request}) -- impersonal infinitive

Since the explanation in the corresponding section is hard to understand, we should improve it.

Maybe a previous version of this article can help us devise a better description of those differences. --Antonielly (talk) 16:15, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

We have two different versions of the article that contain both inaccuracies and useful info (that the other does not have): this and this. Let's discuss here how to integrate the best of both worlds. Since we all have good faith, the consensus we will achieve here through discussion will result in a great section :) .

My suggestion is that we bullet-list the good and bad features of each version. This way, we will be able to properly integrate the good features of both and overcome their problems. --Antonielly (talk) 13:55, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you in almost everything. The most important is that there is a personal infinitive in Portuguese, and there is not such a thing in Spanish. We should just give a few examples about personal infinitive to make the difference clear.
Second thing: personal infinitive is sometimes replaceable with subjunctive, some other times with indicative, e.g.:

O facto de estarmos fartos de discutir não beneficia ninguém. / O facto de que estamos fartos de discutir não beneficia ninguém.

A ideia de que temos de sair cansa-me. / A ideia de termos de sair cansa-me.

Now, as I was saying, we do agree on almost everything and I kept the information you had added. Why did you revert the edits? But never mind.
Third thing: I'm not sure (now) about a general replaceability with subordinate finite clauses. I had some examples against it some time ago. But is it necessary that we mention that? The earlier saying about "mandatoriness" of PI was related to II, not to finite clauses!
Velho (talk) 00:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Now I remember some cases where it seems impossible to replace the personal infinitive with a finite form (at least without major changes in the whole sentence). It can be replaced with an impersonal infinitive, but again only with some significant changes:

O hábito de fumares à janela prejudica o vizinho. [Personal infinitive. Literally, "The habit of [you] smoking at the window harms the [your/our] neighbour."]

O teu hábito de fumar à janela prejudica o vizinho. [Impersonal infinitive. Literally, "Your habit of smoking at the window harms.... etc."]

? O hábito segundo o qual tu fumas à janela prejudica o vizinho. [Indicative present. Literally, "The habit according to which you smoke at the window... etc."]

The third sentence is completely different and it is also quite weird, isn't it? Velho (talk) 03:30, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

"De" and "desde"

The explanation in that section is inaccurate. "Desde" can also be used in many cases in Portuguese to mean "from one place (to another)". For instance:

Ele teve de caminhar desde a estrada até sua casa porque seu carro se danificou no meio do caminho.

Another observation: There are many cases where "desde" is a synonym of "a partir de" in Portuguese ("a partir de" is more usual in many of those cases, but "desde" is correct too). For instance:

Os produtos desta loja custam desde 10 dólares. (Portuguese)

Los productos de esta tienda custan desde 10 dólares. (Spanish)

There are other cases where "desde" would be very weird in Portuguese as a replacement for "a partir de", to the point where I have strong doubts whether its use would be "correct", i.e., have the look-and-feel of a sentence pronounced by a native speaker (although it would certainly be understood by a native speaker). For instance:

*É possível aceder à Internet desde telefones móveis modernos. (would-be Portuguese)

In most sentences that comply to the "from [place/time 1] to [place/time 2]" pattern, "from" is more properly translated to "de", although it can be also translated to "desde". Translating it to "a partir de" would sound weird to a native Portuguese language speaker, although I am not sure whether it would be completely "wrong". For instance:

Aquela telenovela foi transmitida de 2 de Abril a 9 de Setembro.

Aquela telenovela foi transmitida desde 2 de Abril a 9 de Setembro.

Aquela telenovela foi transmitida a partir de 2 de Abril a 9 de Setembro. (sounds weird, but is comprehensible to a native Portuguese language speaker)

(Examine back again the 1st example I have pointed out, which also falls under this pattern.)

As a side note, "a partir de" is also potentially interchangeable with "partindo de" (much like "estou a fazer" and "estou fazendo" are equivalent), but "a partir de" seems to have grammaticalized over time. Therefore, replacing "partindo de" for "a partir de" would probably sound weird in many instances.

Although I am able to see the inaccuracy in the current text of that section, I do not know how to fix the section myself. The reason is that I can see some individual instances where Portuguese and Spanish differ but I am currently not able to detect the overall pattern of difference. Suggestions? --Antonielly (talk) 18:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Ehem

"Galician, which is often cosidered a dialect of Portuguese". This is very funny, Vímara Peres (Galician) established the County of Portugal. --213.60.88.213 (talk) 17:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

That is correct, and I don't think that anyone in Portugal thinks that Galician proceeded *from* Portuguese. We are actually taught in school that what we speak is almost entirely derived from Galician, and we generally refer to Galician-Portuguese often. The paragraph you cited however is based on the fact that the Galician dialect spoken in Portugal - Portuguese - has due to several factors remained and affirmed itself as a national and cultural language, hence the use of it as a reference. In other words, saying the opposite is equally correct (that Portuguese is a dialect of Galician), it just depends on the angle.--85.138.217.123 (talk) 02:04, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Translation of this article to the Spanish Wikipedia under Deletion discussion

Hello: The translation of this article to the Spanish Wikipedia (Diferencias entre el idioma español y el portugués) is under Deletion discussion. (It's only an unfinished translation of this article. I'm one of the translators and I'm really astonished...). If somebody wants to participate, you can do it here. You can also learn about the arguments (in favor or against) just in case somebody arguments against this article in the future. Thank you very much. --Mario Huerta (talk) 20:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I originally didn't like this article, then I didn't like how long it was -- then I went looking for "e" in Portuguese and "ie" in Spanish and found a very nice job! I'd have voted to keep the article. Next time, do the translation completely and then drop it in complete. And message me.
I've had to interpret between Mexicans and Brazilians, so I wouldn't overdo the "degree of mutual intelligibility." I've heard plenty of Brazilians go sure, sure I speak Portuguese, so I can speak Spanish, and they can't. I've had to interpret for them so they could talk. The languages are similar, but that doesn't mean that just because you know one, you can understand the other. -- Rico 04:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

"Ir a" versus "ir para"

The article currently says: "European Portuguese distinguishes between going somewhere for a short while versus a longer stay, especially if it is an intended destination, in the latter case using para instead of a. [...] This distinction is not made in English, Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese, and the Spanish para cannot be used for this purpose."

It is simply false that Spanish para cannot be used for this purpose. Constructions like ir para España are common in many Spanish dialects (try googling for phrases like ir para, voy para, voy pa etc.). I don't know whether the meaning contrast cited for European Portuguese exists in any Spanish dialect, but I would not discount the possibility. 63.80.102.4 (talk) 23:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Ir para is also used in Brazilian Portuguese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.116.212 (talk) 08:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Original Research

This article cites nothing. Its very explanatory and interesting, but would better belong in a textbook than here. It seems to be synthesized by its authors, and not based on reliable third party sources. WP:NOTTEXTBOOK Can something be done to improve this article to make it encyclopedia? Probably needs to start with citing sources. Ehlkej (talk) 02:02, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

"Going to" future

An anonymous user (IP: 187.3.67.116) left these comments as a hidden reference within the article. I moved them here to the discussion page with the relevant text.

The other is when you are referring to the specific moment where an imminent action not yet begun was cancelled. In this case, the use of a is equivalent to rumo a. (The imperfect tense of estar plus a gerund would have been used had the action already started.) For example:

Ontem eu ia a ler o livro quando de repente tocaram à campainha. (Portuguese)

Yesterday I was going to read the book when suddenly the doorbell rang.

I'm really sure that would be better do not use a before ler; another thing is that there is not à before campainha, because the portuguese verb tocar is not an indirect verb (using it with that meaning), so you do not need to add a preposition a after the verb, making something that we call in portuguese as crase: it's happen when a preposition a is put before an article a (a + a = à); for me, it sounds better: Ontem eu ia ler o livro quando de repente tocaram a campainha. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FMSZ (talk • contribs) 16:10, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The à is actually correct, but the first a is completely wrong. FilipeS (talk) 17:58, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

"Todo" and "tudo"

The use of "todo" + singular noun is acceptable in both languages. For example:

Todo humano tiene derecho. (Spanish)

Todo humano tem direito. (Portuguese)

Why is it excluded from the "Todo" and "tudo" section? Tterrag (talk) 21:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Further, the distinction in meaning between "todo" + "singular noun" and "todos os" + plural noun is actually the same in both Brazilian and European Portuguese. In other words, the difference is not regional at all.

"todo" in this case is every, and "todos os" is "all the" or "all of the"

therefore todo insecto/todos os insectos is actually every insect/all of the insects

One usage may be more popular in a particular region, but the phrases are syntactically different, and as explained above, actually acceptable in Spanish as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.116.212 (talk) 08:06, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, to my ears both sentences sound awkward and non-idiomatic. Do you speak any of the two languages? FilipeS (talk) 17:57, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Few changes

Spanish has more sounding than just that, to learn Spanish you have to go in-depth the Spanish pronunciation which shows loads of allophones and extra sounding :D It should be added nasalisation is done in many Spanish dialects as all Spanish vowels nasalise when in contact with a nasal consonants, in some dialects the nasal consonant is dropped as in Portuguese in others it is not.