User talk:MOBY

A brief overview of some of PVs interaction with me and others. . .

from Talk:Pierre Teilhard de Chardin:

This page doesn't detail much about Teilhard de Chardin's philosophy and important arguments about the role of consciousness in evolution. If nobody minds, I will add it to the article some time. Brianshapiro

It is obvious and clear from his own writings that Teilhard de Chardin was either a pantheist or that he believed in a form of cosmotheism.

(cur) (last) . . 20:26, 29 Mar 2004 . . David Gerard (- Vogelspam (I really doubt Teilhard de Chardin was a white separatist))

That is your own POV opinion. However, Cosmotheism is related to Teilhard de Chardin's ideas and ideals, and whether he was a white separatist or not.

Maybe everyone here should be calling your ignorant POV edits and biased POV reverts "Gerardspam"?

To place a link to "Cosmotheism" wherever their might be some tenuous association TRULY is SPAM. The Cosmotheism sites seem to promote particular forms of pantheistic attitudes and ideas, yet to declare all people who might have ideas that could be described as Pantheistic as "Cosmotheists" is likely declaring all Christians as ultimately "Roman Catholic". Though some Roman Catholics might have the arrogance to declare that is the case, treating a sectarian faction as if it were the ultimate manifestation of a particular set of ideas, is definitely a skewed POV. - MOBY 16:56, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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PV's initial resonses

To place a link to "Cosmotheism" wherever their might be some tenuous association TRULY is SPAM.

I agree, whenever the association is actually "tenuous", which it isn't in this specific case with cosmotheism, whatsoever.

The Cosmotheism sites seem to promote particular forms of pantheistic attitudes and ideas, yet to declare all people who might have ideas that could be described as Pantheistic as "Cosmotheists" is likely declaring all Christians as ultimately "Roman Catholic".

That is a false analogy, as the terms "pantheistic" and "cosmotheistic" are synomonous, whereas, the two terms "Christian" and "Roman Catholic" are not.

A correct analogy would be to declare that those that held "Roman Catholic" attitudes and ideas are "Christians", which is both accurate and proper.

Though some Roman Catholics might have the arrogance to declare that is the case, treating a sectarian faction as if it were the ultimate manifestation of a particular set of ideas, is definitely a skewed POV. - MOBY 16:56, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That is not the case with "Cosmotheism", whatsoever. Cosmotheism is Pantheism, and either/or terms are closely related to Chardin's own beliefs, hence the link to cosmotheism, and thus, this is NOT SPAM, David Gerard!

Cosmotheism, as it is being advocated, is NOT synonymous with pantheism. "Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts that there is a internal purpose in life and in cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or consciousness that binds all living beings and all of the inorganic cosmos, as one." This is a statement which evokes many interesting ideas… but the operative words here are "Cosmotheism is a religion" - Pantheism is NOT. Religion in the sense it is usually used is a specific range of ideas, beliefs, and practices by which people form a common community of devotion and purposes. Pantheism is a range of ideas, some of which Cosmotheists might embrace, and others they might reject. The words Pantheism and Cosmotheism can perhaps in some respects be used synonymously… but that is NOT the case with the particular site, and many of the ideas you seem continually trying to promote. A link on the page for cosmotheism, and perhaps one on Pantheism can be justified… but to put a link on the page of a person whose ideas might be somewhat similar in some respects, but to whom there are no particularly concrete links to this particular form of pantheism is truly straining for associations. Please do not interlace your comments in other peoples, in further posts, it makes it very difficult for other people to discern who is speaking and who is not. This is a talk page, and no one likes their comments ammended in such a way as to easily seem to say something that they do not. - MOBY 20:47, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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further attempt at dialog

Cosmotheism, as it is being advocated, is NOT synonymous with pantheism. "Cosmotheism is a religion which positively asserts that there is a internal purpose in life and in cosmos, and there is an essential unity, or consciousness that binds all living beings and all of the inorganic cosmos, as one." This is a statement which evokes many interesting ideas… but the operative words here are "Cosmotheism is a religion" - Pantheism is NOT.

Cosmotheism is Pantheism, and they BOTH ARE Religious Worldviews, whether you "think so" or not. PV

Religion in the sense it is usually used is a specific range of ideas, beliefs, and practices by which people form a common community of devotion and purposes.

That is only your own POV "definition", and the essential thing that makes both COSMOTHEISM=PANTHEISM and vice-versa is the specific belief that "GOD" is the WHOLE of COSMOS, itself! PV

ALL definitions of ANYTHING must involve a POV, and your continually insistence that this particular form of pantheism is synonymous with pantheism, which is a term that can be applied to a wide range of ideas beyond this particular form, is MORE absurd than calling all Christians actually "Roman Catholics"… it is akin to calling all theists necessarily "Christians" it is a very strained and absurd definition. My own ideas tend to be pantheistic in many ways, and I actually think the term Cosmotheism is an interesting term with similar evocations, but the particular use of the term on the sites you are promoting can be equated to a particular sectarian faction of a much broader range of ideas. - Moby 22:04, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Pantheism is a range of ideas, some of which Cosmotheists might embrace, and others they might reject. The words Pantheism and Cosmotheism can perhaps in some respects be used synonymously… but that is NOT the case with the particular site, and many of the ideas you seem continually trying to promote.

Yes, just as in many other religions, there is a range of beliefs. But, the essential belief is that GOD is the WHOLE of COSMOS, itself. Many other ideas are related to this belief, and not the least of which is CONSCIOUS EVOLUTION, and this is related to our true Human purpose and place and meaning, within the COSMOS. PV

A link on the page for cosmotheism, and perhaps one on Pantheism can be justified… but to put a link on the page of a person whose ideas might be somewhat similar in some respects, but to whom there are no particularly concrete links to this particular form of pantheism is truly straining for associations.

Not really. The essential belief is CONSCIOUS EVOLUTION, which Chardin shares more with COSMOTHEISTS, than with many so-called PANTHEISTS, actually, Social-Marxist Pan-Atheists. PV

Please do not interlace your comments in other peoples, in further posts, it makes it very difficult for other people to discern who is speaking and who is not. This is a talk page, and no one likes their comments ammended in such a way as to easily seem to say something that they do not. - MOBY 20:47, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It is quite clear who or whom is actually speaking by the context. If you don't like it, don't speak with me. PV

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After a refreshing pause from an attempt at dialog with PV, where I simply observed his generally rude obstinacy, I eventually posted this at Talk:Cosmotheism:

A POV against many of PV's POVs

I have just joined with others in reverting a deletion of links that PV seems insistent on preventing others from seeing. Some people can't seem to get the hints that most rational human society, and maybe indeed the whole universe, is in some sense against their particular forms of bigotry, far more than they are in any way for it.

I am a rather patient person, and have simply observed without comment for several days now the attempts at honest dialog and commentary, and the attempts to disrupt and discourage it, that have been made on some of the pages that PV is inclined to promote his POVs. Hypocrisies exist to the extreme, when people strain to make positive and absolute associations with people who would likely be repulsed and revolted by their particular views and ideas, and seek to eliminate any direct criticism of such views as they are inclined to promote as "irrelevant", and unworthy of any consideration.

It is a certainty that labels are always limited in their application, and can be dangerously misused and abused by those who delight in manipulating others impressions and will in dishonest ways. The most absurdly obnoxious and pathetically narrow minded of bigots will often rely upon them and various connotations that they have, to try and make their own particular bigotries seem almost sane and reasonable. Sometimes they will succeed for a time, with some people who are ignorant of some important details, but where information is freely available few remain fooled for very long.

It is not an entirely original observation to say that when a person is inclined to interrupt others, and to break up or eliminate other people's coherent statements of their views, opinions, and expressions of facts, it usually reveals a marked lack of having many of their own. Such behavior is often manifest among those unusually obsessed with the idea of winning over others they like to presume are "inferior", and in making any efforts they can at seeming right rather than in making any sincere effort at being so. One who is not familiar with the actual progression of the attempts at dialog, as they have occurred, can become very confused as to who, or is not, actually speaking and what points are attempting to be made. That certain individuals insist on making such interjections as disrupt the flow of others expressions, to thoroughly ravage any attempts by others to make their points in a cohesive manner, reveals an extreme rudeness, and an extreme inability to even tolerate cohesive and rational dialog and argument. They say such things as if you don't like their rudeness, then "Don't talk to me", in attempts to mantain their own vain sense of superiority.

From one of the sites of advocacy of "Cosmotheism" one can find such statements as "My purpose is the Creator's Purpose" – This may be true of any individual, but is true of all individuals as well… and their own particular sense of their own purposes, and that of God's, are not therefore synonymous. Some people's primary purpose often seems to be to show others how stupid and bigoted a human being can become. It proceeds to "My path is the Path of the Creator's Self-realization", and "My path is the Path of Divine Consciousness", which again can apply to any individual no more than it applies to ALL individual's and ALL paths, something some people seem intent on ignoring or denying. And finally: "My destiny is Godhood". Most pantheists that I am aware of would totally reject the idea of mortals becoming "gods" let alone "God", and would vigorously assert that though God is indeed in all, and that all are in some sense "within" God, mortals do not ever become God, and cannot. The part may be entirely of the total and ultimate Reality, but never is nor can be the totality of Reality. Those who would insist otherwise are to that extent solipsists, rather than pantheists. I believe that most would assert that some mortals can and do become aware that their own existence, and that of everyone else's is to some extent, and for some reasons and purposes a portion of God's ultimate will and omnipresent being. Even so, some people are inclined to focus on the truths of love, and the love of truth, on honest and respectful communion with other souls and minds in a spirit of appreciation and generosity, and might be compared to brain cells and nerves, eager to form mutually beneficial connections, and some are more focused only upon themselves, their narrow concerns, and upon that which is to be excluded, ignored, and denigrated, often very improperly. These individuals can be more appropriately compared to cancer cells consuming an organ's resources while obliviously disdainful of the health of the whole organ or organism of which it is a part, or in a far more familiar and common analogy, to rectums. When the pressures of poorly digested facts and ideas are at work, there can often seem to be no end to the foulness that can emerge from them. One can refrain from calling any specific person a "rectal cavity full of bovine excrement", and still describe the metaphoric associations that are at work, in such ways as to make it plain as to whom, and to what ideas, such terms and metaphors most aptly apply.

I thoroughly expect that PV will break up my assertions with interjections of his own, and would be delighted if in this one instance at least he could actually resist his impulses to be rudely reactive, and actually prove me mistaken. - Moby 01:17, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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I am "Rudely reactive"? Hardly. LOL! :D

Was your rant above, Mody, really just lying and hypocritical and typical Psychological projection? Absolutely. This is quite typical of "SSEE" or "Malignant Narcissistic" mental pathologies.

-PV

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A response from an ally in rationality

Very thoughtful comments. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 01:44, Apr 9, 2004 (UTC)

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posting by PV here:

From one of the sites of advocacy of "Cosmotheism" one can find such statements as "My purpose is the Creator's Purpose" – This may be true of any individual, but is true of all individuals as well… and their own particular sense of their own purposes, and that of God's, are not therefore synonymous.

"Obviously, you just don't really understand what is meant by that Cosmotheist affirmation."-PV

It proceeds to "My path is the Path of the Creator's Self-realization", and "My path is the Path of Divine Consciousness", which again can apply to any individual no more than it applies to ALL individual's and ALL paths, something some people seem intent on ignoring or denying.

"Who or whom is actually ignoring or denying this?"-PV

And finally: "My destiny is Godhood". Most pantheists that I am aware of would totally reject the idea of mortals becoming "gods" let alone "God", and would vigorously assert that though God is indeed in all, and that all are in some sense "within" God, mortals do not ever become God, and cannot. The part may be entirely of the total and ultimate Reality, but never is nor can be the totality of Reality.

"Again, obviously, you just don't really understand what is meant by that Cosmotheist affirmation, either."-PV

I believe that most would assert that some mortals can and do become aware that their own existence, and that of everyone else's is to some extent, and for some reasons and purposes a portion of God's ultimate will and omnipresent being. Even so, some people are inclined to focus on the truths of love, and the love of truth, on honest and respectful communion with other souls and minds in a spirit of appreciation and generosity, and might be compared to brain cells and nerves, eager to form mutually beneficial connections,.

"And indeed, that is what Cosmotheists do".-PV

One can refrain from calling any specific person a "rectal cavity full of bovine excrement", and still describe the metaphoric associations that are at work, in such ways as to make it plain as to whom, and to what ideas, such terms and metaphors most aptly apply.

"Indeed, you had, and mostly to only your own self".-PV

Mody, was that really just lying and hypocritical and typical Psychological projection? Absolutely.

This is quite typical of "SSEE" or "Malignant Narcissistic" mental pathologies. [2]

-PV