Talk:Messiah Foundation International

Google

How strange. I looked up Messiah Foundation International on Google, but in all the 5 pages I looked through, the link to the Wikipedia article wasn't there while just the other day I saw it on the first page. Does anyone know why? Thanks. Omirocksthisworld (talk) 21:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC) edit: Sorry, I see it now. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omirocksthisworld (talk • contribs) 21:09, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Seperate Article For Younus AlGohar

I think because Mr. Younus AlGohar is the founder of MFI, we should have an article explaining him, his messege, his devotion, accomplishments, credits, history etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karenroon (talk • contribs) 01:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think its a good idea and it will give a more insightful look into MFI as a whole. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 01:52, 11 September 2009 (UTC))

Notability

Hi. I was wondering why this article is not considered notable. Should we add more sources? Suggestions anyone? (Omirocksthisworld (talk))

- I've added more sources now. Does anyone have suggestions on anything else that needs to be done to make this article notable?(Omirocksthisworld (talk) 23:06, 20 October 2009 (UTC))

Conflict of Interest

Hi. Could someone please explain how there is a conflict of interest about this article? I thought conflict of interest means trying to promote yourself/someone you are associated with. Please let me know how it seems to be biased and how we can improve it? Thanks.(Omirocksthisworld (talk) 22:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC))

Greetings, the article does indeed give the impression that it is written by people wanting to promote MFI. Some attempt has been made for a semblance of neutrality, but the overall tone of the article is quite pro-MFI. Further, the intro doesn't really focus on the fundamental aspects/beliefs of the MFI. Another issue of concern is the use of lengthy quotations directly from MFI texts, which is basically letting the "MFI voice" dominate the article. Tell you what, I can take a chop at NPOVing it in the next couple days. In the short term, you can help me by turning all those external links into proper footnotes. I'll go footnote your first couple external links by placing <ref> </ref> tags around them. Please follow that format to turn all the ELs into footnotes, and that'll help push this article into compliance. I appreciate your interest in helping bring the article into proper WP neutrality, and submit that a properly neutral article will, in the long run, better serve MFI's interests by avoiding any semblance of self-promotion in a neutral setting. MatthewVanitas (talk) 23:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay great, thanks for your help. I'll try to help with those footnotes then. I too think it would be good to explain the teachings of MFI in neutral language instead of directly quoting their text, so I'll get right on that.(Omirocksthisworld (talk) 00:30, 10 October 2009 (UTC))

I feel that the overall tone of the article is relatively unbiased now. Does anyone have any objections and/or suggestions? (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 07:33, 22 November 2009 (UTC))

There have been no stated objections to the removal of the NPOV tag in six weeks or so. Therefore I've reverted the IPs continual addition of the tag. I will be leaving the IP a message re edit warring. If this continues I am happy to semi-protect the article to prevent further edit warring. Mjroots (talk) 07:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Great thanks for your help! (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 07:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC))

Semi-protected

I've semi-protected the article for a period of time. IPs and newly registered editors will therefore be unable to edit the article. If the NPOV tag is to be attached to the article it should be stated here what the points of contention are, and a chance given to editors to address the points raised. As noted above, there were no objections raised in six weeks to the removal of the NPOV tag. Re-tagging the article without giving reasons as to why the article should be tagged is not constructive, and will be deal with as vandalism. Mjroots (talk) 15:19, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

• They have been using the wikipedia to promote their Organization. They should not have an article on Wikipedia.--116.71.19.15 (talk) 09:07, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

How so? I wrote the article and I did attempt to keep it as neutral and informative as possible. I focus on what claims they have made, their beliefs, controversy, and their coverage in the media as well as their expansion. If however you feel that there are parts to the article that seem promoting or otherwise biased, please be specific.

You have said in your edit descriptions that the organization itself is a terrorist organization and/or promotes terrorism, however there is no evidence I have found that suggests so. In fact, on their official websites there are press releases by Younus AlGohar mentioning MFI's strong opposition against terrorism and specific reasons why. (Omirocksthisworld (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 23:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC).

While I agree that the article does lean too heavily on pro-MFI sources for 2/3 of its length, none of the people (one person?) raising objections have yet made a coherent case besides random insults (in Urdu?), and accusations of "terrorism". The claim that "they're terrorists and shouldn't have a Wikipedia page" is rather odd, since we have the pages Al Qaeda, Irish Republican Army, FARC, etc. The MFI doesn't "have" their own page, there's a page about them, which in fairness does need to be pulled more towards the middle.

This article could be substantially improved by incorporating material from major media outlets or academic researchers, and also by incorporating a "criticism" section where any legitimate complaints about the group's behavior (even more so than their beliefs) could be recorded and footnoted to reputable sources.

To posters complaining of "terrorism": please explain your reason for this label, maybe you're actually right and that needs to be in the article, but it doesn't do us neutral editors any good if you don't provide reliable information that can be acted upon. MatthewVanitas (talk) 23:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be good to add more information on criticism from reputable sources. Maybe it could be merged with the "Persecutions" section? Or perhaps the title should be changed from "Persecution" to Criticism? edit- actually, I think it should be part of the "Controversy" section. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 00:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC))

• If you can easily search on google, that what status MFI and younas the dirty soul actually have.--Asikhi (talk) 06:14, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you realise that nobody cares about your sectarian quarrels? Please refrain from insulting people and provide actual information footnoted from reputable sources. What is so hard to grasp? I don't have any more opinion on your religion than I do of the religion of native tribes of the Amazon, but you're certainly not doing your group any credit by hanging about insulting people and refusing to provide any actual substantive content. Are you simply not able to provide such information? MatthewVanitas (talk) 06:22, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I am currently working on finding proper sources criticizing the organization. It is rather difficult though, because most of those criticizing MFI are not reputable. These criticisms are found mostly on Islamic sites and do not have any references to any MFI content that they claim is controversial. For example, Yoginder Sikand wrote a book with three chapters dedicated to MFI and also wrote an dissertation about the group that was posted here. Among his claims were that Younus AlGohar is a billionaire and a hypnotist, as well as stating that "[MFI] even threatened that this might lead Pakistan to civil war." Perhaps people, reading this, would get the impression that MFI is a politically motivated group. However, I checked the references that he provided and they were all deadlinks, each sending me to a Yahoo page that did not exist. I will continue to look for criticism or issues brought up about the beliefs of MFI by more credible sources. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 06:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC))

That's great, Omnis. Though I still think the article has a pro-MFI stance, I do really respect your sincere work on the article, and your taking the moral high ground despite the lack of courtesy shown by some other editors. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your support. I understand what you mean when you say this article seems pro-MFI without a proper criticism section. I'm still looking for credible sources, but I have looked through forums and comments made on MFI YouTube pages for common issues raised. Here's what I've found:

• The "divine signs" on the Moon, Sun and Black Stone have been met with skepticism, as many say that these images are not enough to support the claim that Gohar Shahi is the awaited messianic figure. Some say that the images are too sketchy to be attributed to any person. One commenter stated that images were haram in Islam.
• MFI uses various prophetic traditions to support their claims about Gohar Shahi, but particularly among Muslims the authenticity of the traditions used are often disputed upon. This, possibly, is due to the fact that different sects in Islam give preference to different prophetic traditions and narrators. Some Muslims say that the concept of Imam Mehdi was not mentioned in the Quran, though MFI also uses references from the celestial books of the major religions to support their claims.
• MFI has been opposed because of their belief that the Black Stone is for the salvation of the entire humanity and should be possible to access for people of all religions, not just Muslims. They have petitioned for the government of Saudi Arabia to allow non-Muslims to revere the stone.
• Generally most criticizers of MFI comes from South Asia, perhaps due to the fact that many MFI members originate from that area. They have been criticized for being "pro-American" (as Younus AlGohar often says that the United States would be a supporter of the Messiah) and working against Islamic countries. This is perhaps due to the fact that MFI often releases material speaking against Islamic terrorism and urging western governments to be more proactive against it. MFI has also stated that Pakistan is being taken over by the Taliban and that Mulla Omar is the Anti-Christ. MFI says that Islam today is not the Islam established by the Prophet Muhammad, which has angered some. They have been accused of working for the CIA, though this so far is unfounded, and MFI states that they are not affiliated with any government.
• One subject of controversy is the two main groups attributing themselves to Gohar Shahi: Anjuman-e-Safroshan-e-Islam and Messiah/Mehdi Foundation International. Although both have been established, so it seems, by Gohar Shahi himself, they have very distinct beliefs about Gohar Shahi. Anjuman considers itself part of Islam and respects Gohar Shahi as a Sufi Saint. MFI, however, considers itself an interfaith organization and propagates Gohar Shahi as the Imam Mehdi, Messiah, Kalki Avatar, and the Awaited One. MFI claims that ASI disrespects Gohar Shahi by confining him to Islam when they believe that Gohar Shahi is for humanity regardless of the faith they belong to. ASI, however, says that MFI is against Gohar Shahi and are the agent of the Jews.
• Some were interested in how MFI funded itself. This is because MFI does not take donations or fees for offering spiritual healing or hosting programs. Perhaps because MFI takes no fees, it might be speculated they have government support, or "work for the CIA". However, in this interview Younus AlGohar states that members work and give up time freely to MFI, as well as contribute a monthly sum.

These are, however, just comments and speculations. I am still collecting cited sources, and a section on this topic should be up within the next few days.Omirocksthisworld (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC))

• • MFI wasn't founded by His Holinss, only ASI was founded by His Holinss, the above user is saying lie. MFI is a terrorist organization, that's why many countries have lounched an FIR against MFI. Younas the dirty soul is mastermind of it. You can easily trigger it by searching on google.--116.71.25.129 (talk) 08:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes, many FIRs have been registered against MFI members in Pakistan. I'm sorry but since when is Pakistan "countless countries"? MFI has recorded recent FIR's reported against their members here. Most of the prominent Pakistani officials of MFI were charged under blasphemy laws for "hurting others' religious feelings". However, due to the political situation in Pakistan, the blasphemy law in particular has been misused. Dawn.com has a full report on it.

An FIR was also registered in regards to MFI's protests carried out in Jantar Mantar, where they burnt their passports and travel documents and were therefore in India illegally. Thats still not "countless" though. Please at least attempt to constructively contribute- there is no need to be so hostile. --Omirocksthisworld (talk) 08:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I looked up "FIR", and it's basically just a police report, yes? What exactly were they accused of that's terrorist, other than blasphemy? If they committed actual terrorist acts (bombings, killings, etc) that should definitely be in the article, but the IPs aren't doing any help by just saying "everyone knows" and "google it". If they committed acts of terrorism, there should certainly be articles in Dawn about it, and those would be welcome contributions to the article.

I take it by the IP comments that there's some folks allied with Gohar Shahi, and others with Younas, and that's the source of this bad-blood? That'd be great to document with reputable sources, so readers can understand the dispute. MatthewVanitas (talk) 02:53, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I haven't come across any reputable sources declaring that MFI is involved in terrorist activities.

• Shortly after the apparent occultation of Gohar Shahi in late 2001, MFI was formed. Before the occultation there was Anjuman-e-Safroshan-e-Islam, and afterward there were two groups of people claiming to follow Gohar Shahi: Mehdi Foundation and Anjuman-e-Safroshan-e-Islam (ASI). ASI followers consider themselves Muslim and are based in Pakistan, whereas members of MFI consider themselves followers of Gohar Shahi simply. MFI has been criticized by ASI, often called "agents of Jews, as MFI does not call itself an Islamic organization and propagates Gohar Shahi to be the awaited messianic figure while ASI believes him to be a Sufi and not the Imam Mehdi. The Cheif Executive of MFI is Younus AlGohar, whom is considered to be the "representative of Imam Mehdi" by MFI people. This is often disputed, as most ASI members say that MFI and AlGohar do not follow the teachings of Gohar Shahi and do disservice to him by propagating him as the messianic figure. The result is often what you have seen above with the IP addresses. However, there is no bad-blood between Gohar Shahi and Younus themselves. In fact Younus AlGohar has been under discipleship of Gohar Shahi for about two decades, since he met Gohar Shahi at age 15. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 03:42, 15 January 2010 (UTC))
  • Look MFI was formed after disappearance of His Holiness, how can His Holiness formed an organization when HE is in occultation?

Two conradictnary statements from above user.

The fact is that MFI is a self-made cult, which is powered by yonas the dirty soul, this is a group of Fanatics who are gatherred under the umbrella of yonas the dirty soul, I strongly request you all guys, that delete both articles. MFI has nothing to do with His Holiness!!!--Spiritualism (talk) 07:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

• • Actually no where in my statement above did I mention how MFI was formed, I rather said that we know it was formed in late 2001 to early 2002. They claim to follow Gohar Shahi's teachings wholly and do not consider themselves self made. They think they are acting upon the wishes of Gohar Shahi.

I dont see why this article should be deleted, however if you feel you can contribute positively then please discuss it here. Otherwise, please do not continue to make comments like the above one. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 08:06, 15 January 2010 (UTC))

• • • We don't seek your advise to work on wikipedia as I have always been positive, that's why I am using the way of dialoug!!! You are liers and biggest lier is younas the dirty soul. You are followers of younas the dirty soul, and not of His Holiness. You have nothing to do with His Holiness but you are follower of younas the dirty soul.--Spiritualism (talk) 09:45, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Please make attempts at civility. You don't need to go around throwing insults. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 09:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC))

• • • • Its true not insults, rather this article doesn't states the reliable sources, no 3rd party reference has been provided, all sources are their own websites. --Falconkhe (talk) 10:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually you'll find references to reports on MFI from the UN and Eric Lubbock, 4th Baron Avebury, as well as newspaper articles and interviews. I cited their own websites usually for reference when I mentioned something they claim or the like. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 10:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC))

Mr. We need reference to every single word, otherwise, your article will be deleted.--Falconkhe (talk) 10:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I can provide you better information than anyone else as I am a resident of Karachi and I know very well about ASI (the Gohar Shahi Group as per MFI)& MFI (A Group formed by Younas). MFI is selfmade cult, which was introduce by younas and not GS. They had been involved in criminal activities like abducting a passenger bus in Faisalabad. They have their own agenda. They don't follow GS but they are followers of Younas. They have nothing to do with Gohar Shahi but their actual agenda is to defame GS by selfmade Teaching, which they claimed to be GSs but actually its younas's.

1. The MFI beleives on the lame stories told by younas and not on GS.
2. The MFI followers wanted a curb in Pakistan to the followers of GS. A video evidence to support above
3. The MFI attacked on residence of GS.(For details watch videos link)
4. The MFI doesn't belive on GS any more.
5. The people of MFI are few in Pakistani and few in Indian jails for terrified act including terrorism and blasphemy.
6. The people of MFI claimed to don't beleive in religion but most of them are Pakistani Muslims, who seek asylum in the UK, most of them provide wrong information for better chances of asylum.

The more information I will provide later.--Falconkhe (talk) 12:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually the video link provided just shows rallies of MFI members in Pakistan. The rallies were held to declare MFI's support to General Perves Musharaf when he launched action against terrorism, and to declare Gohar Shahi as the Imam Mehdi. Details of why MFI members were sent to jail in India and Pakistan can be found in the link to FIRs I provided above and in the "persecution" section of this article. And yes, many MFI members have applied for asylum to the UK and other countries because they feared for their lives in Pakistan, and they do not consider themselves Muslims. I thought I would clear this up. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 23:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC))

Please maintain an objective perspective

Look, this talk page is getting acrimonious, and it's pretty obvious that it's a sectarian argument and not a true interest in objective information. While Omi appears to be an MFI supporter, he's at least being civil and cooperative and aware of his personal biases. The other posters need to realise that terms such as "dirty liar" and "his Holiness" are blatantly POV and are not helping their cases in the slightest. The MFI is undoubtedly a WP:NOTABILITY notable organistation, so there's no way the article will be deleted just because it hurts someone's precious little feelings. What can happen, however, is that legitimate criticism, or description of MFI's controversies, should be included in the article, footnoted to reputable sources.

Please avoid terms like "dirty liar" and "his Holiness". Also note it took weeks of "terrorists!" before someone actually passingly mentioned terrorist acts (alleged attacks on GS's followers). I'm sure WP would be interested in hearing alternate sides of the issue, but it has to be done the right way. MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we need to provide the best possible coverage of MFI, but we should present the facts in a neutral way.

Possibility for inclusion in "Controversy" Section

Actually, Falconkhe mentioned something very interesting. He said MFI members were involved in terrorist activities and that MFI was responsible for hijacking a bus in Faislabad. The story from which this stems is a subject of controversy and confusion, so I feel it is important to address it. What happened was that a certain Shahbaz Khan, who claimed to be the Imam Mehdi, claimed to be funded by Younus AlGohar and Messiah Foundation International. He claimed that he learned hypnotism from Younus AlGohar. He hijacked a bus in Faislabad with 50 armed followers, apparently, and then had a shoot-out with police. This happened in 2005.

This story was published by the Daily Times, the story can be found here. However I feel the need to draw your attention to the fact that according to this article, Mr. Khan stated that "they were working under different names including Hizb-e-Riaz, Mehdi Foundation, Deen-e-Younas, Deen-e-Elahi, Sarkari Sufi and Anjuman-e-Sarfoshan-e-Islam." Had he really been associated with MFI and/or ASI, he wouldn't have said that he was working under the banner of both ASI and MFI, as he would have known that the two groups do not work with each other at all.

I would also like to point out that this apparent story was published by the same newspaper who published this story. According to this particular story, "Riaz Gohar Shahi was arrested under the charges of the blasphemy law and was later murdered in jail because of his controversial religious ideas". However this is completely false because Gohar Shahi was never put in jail, and left Pakistan for the United Kingdom, as he was being persecuted in Pakistan.

According to this report by the UNHCR,

In December 2005, the news agency UPI and the Pakistani newspapers Daily Times and The

Nation, citing Pakistan police sources, report alleged links between the Gohar Shahi group and “self-proclaimed ‘Imam Mehdi’” Shahbaz Khan (The Nation, 19 December 2005; UPI, 27 December 2005; Daily Times, 28 December 2005). According to The Sunday Telegraph, Shahbaz Khan was involved in a hostage-taking incident (The Sunday Telegraph, 15 January 2006). However, concerning links between Shahbaz and the Gohar Shahi group, The Sunday Telegraph states: “There is no suggestion that leaders of the Gohar Shahi religion either organised [Shahbaz] Ahmed's actions in Pakistan or knew what he and his disciples were planning.”

(The Sunday Telegraph, 15 January 2006)

I think this might be important to mention it in the controversy section as well. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 23:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC))

In addition I have found more stories reporting the incident by Shahbaz Khan and also a press release issued by MFI in 2005. The press release can be found here and the article reporting the incident in detail can be found here. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 00:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC))

• I am still afirm on that they are terrorist and MFI was supporting shehbaz who then claimed to be imam mehdi and hijacked a bus and involved in terrorist activities not just in Pakistan but in India as well. I am affirm on that the people of MFI are terrorist and their mastermind is a terrorist known as younus the dirty soul.--Falconkhe (talk) 17:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

You can affirm all you like, but Wikipedia does not care until you can provide a footnote to a reputable source. Until said point, nobody cares. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

If you'd use common sense, it's quite obvious that MFI, as they say 'propagate Shahi to be Mehdi' would not actually provide support to Shehbaz, as he claimed to be the Mehdi himself. Again, please bring reputable sources.Nasiryounus (talk) 00:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, yes. Anyway, if no one has any objections I'm going to include this in the controversy section for the time being, citing the press release, the report on the incident and this report by ACCORD in association with the UNHCR (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 03:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC))

wikipedia is like a dust bin and it is proved by having articles of mental psychopath younus a dirty soul, wikipedia is a garbage box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.10.167 (talk) 11:50, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Like I said in Talk:Younus AlGohar, if you do not like Wikipedia you are not being forced by anyone to use it. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 23:44, 22 January 2010 (UTC))

• • • • If we take out the 3rd party source this article will be shrink to only a few lines, all sources are their own websites. Therefore, you are requested to put a tag of NPOV on this article. Thanks

Actually, as I have explained from before, references included in this article are from newspaper articles, a report on MFI by the UNHCR, U.S. Department of State Annual Report on International Religious Freedom for 2000 – Pakistan, press releases from NHCR, a detailed report on MFI by Eric Lubbock, 4th Baron Avebury and interviews by newspapers with Younus AlGohar. MFI websites, however, are cited when the article discusses some of their claims, their beliefs, and/or other information only provided by them. Although there seems to be people opposing how the article is presented (and that this organization should not have an article on Wikipedia), there has not been reputable sources provided to help with the article's neutrality. You are welcome to contribute constructively. (Omirocksthisworld (talk) 08:17, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

No excuses, please where are 3rd party references?