Talk:O'Neill dynasty

Ona the ArchDruid and O'Neill?

I am seeking some expertise. I had this entry on the dab page Ona:

• Ona the ArchDruid, great grandson of Brion, half-brother of Niall Noigíallach, High King of Ireland about 400AD, see O'Neill (surname)

So it seems to claim a historical/mythological figure and imply a connection with the surname "O'Neill", but none of the articles it mentions is reciprocating, and Wikipedia seems the only place on Google to mention it. I have no idea if this comes from Original Research or actual but obscure stuff. It's only mentionned in the same vein at Ó Maoilmhichil and Pro Aris et Focis.

For now I'm shrinking it to a link to an article that does mention him (though it could be bogus and from the same source):

• Ona the ArchDruid, Irish figure, great grandson of Brion, brother of Maoilmhichil

Sourced edits or opinions welcome to improve this entry (and the related pages), thanks. — Komusou ^talk @ 15:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

need one

• P.G. O'Neill, the author of Essential Kanji Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 08:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Red hand incorrectly depicted

The article describes the arms as involving a device "supporting or holding a right hand palmed in pale red supporting or holding a right hand palmed in pale red" while the arms as depicted show a left hand. I believe that there is an order of chivalry within the British system that uses a left rather than a right hand for the red hand of Ulster, and this may be a source of the error.

The earliest arms shows a left hand, the right hand is simply more common in heraldry, so it is not irrational that this error has occurred over the years. The red left hand is used as a symbol of baronetcy in Ireland because of the High King's use of the red left hand. See baronet. ‡ XANDERLIPTAK 12:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

O'Neill dynasty

I think we've got more than enough 'dynasty' articles. Maybe we should try an combine some of them together. The Ó Neill Dynasty Today article, i think, could easily be placed within this one. The merge tag has been on there for over a year.

Articles

• Ó Neill Dynasty Today redirected and merged into O'Neill dynasty
• O'Neill dynasty focal point currently under construction
• O'Neill Dynasty re-directed to O'Neill dynasty
• O'Neill of Clannaboy redirected and merged into O'Neill dynasty
• O'Neills of Puerto Rico redirected and merged into O'Neill dynasty
• Southern Uí Néill
• Uí Néill information taken from page, but shall be left to stand on its own
• Uí Néill descendants

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Breandán MacAmhlaidh (talk • contribs) 07:20, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Well the Uí Néill include several more dynasties and separate kingdoms, for example the rival O'Donnell of Tyrconnell, so we can't merge those. But anything and everything to do with the O'Neill (Ó Néill) dynasty should ideally be in one article, namely this one, probably including Kings of Tír Eógain. Then we already have O'Neill and O'Neill (surname) for the lists. DinDraithou (talk) 14:59, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I linked all the spelling variations of O'Neill to either the O'Neill (disambiguation) page or to the O'Neill (surname) page and combined their information on the resulting pages. I saw no point to have an O'Neal page and O'Neil page and so on that pasted the information in the O'Neill article. For a person searching by surname, he would have to search every single spelling variation if they did not know the specific spelling off hand. Still, the O'Neill (surname) page is lacking, perhaps the various articles on different O'Neill branches could be added to the surname page to expand the history. ‡ XANDERLIPTAK 04:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I think it'd be much simpler if the surname page just dealt with the surname. The history of the clan/family, and heraldry and the like, should stay on an article devoted to it (like this one). I think the surname article should just deal with the surname (the etymology and statistics, a simple list, etc.). No need to have duplicate articles when you can switch to another in a single mouse-click.--Breandán MacAmhlaidh (talk) 04:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it only takes one click to get to a new page, but with all the numerous O’Neill pages, you will be searching through a circular maze of similarly named articles. The O’Neill dynasty today discusses the Clanaboy branch in detail, while the Clanaboy article has just a couple of sentences. The O’Neill dynasty page here lacks any information of any dynasty. While there is a distinction to the branches that the familiar may know, the unfamiliar will have quite the hassle to find the appropriate information in the maze of links. So, if the different branches are all combined on the surname page, and the only reason I suggest hat is because people researching a family history most likely will only type in the surname and not O’Neill clan or O’Neill dynasty because they will not yet be aware of a clan or dynasty, it will cease the duplicate information being researched for the competing and poorly written articles and allow a combined effort to create a really good and singular article. So that typing in either O’Neill, O’Neil or O’Neal will then link to one articulate page that can inform completely of the different branches of the families. ‡ XANDERLIPTAK 22:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

This is what disambiguation pages are for, and O'Neill is actually that at the bottom.

Elsewhere, even more information on the dynasty, and very current, can be found at Count of Tyrone, recreated with modifications by the Vatican in 2006. Ireland's most royal and most powerful dynasty is almost as disorganised as the modern House of Bourbon. If they had any sense they would strategically intermarry their branches and begin producing claimants to the High Kingship of Ireland. The O'Neill dynasty is the successor of Cenél nEógain and since the Southern Uí Néill no longer exist their only opposition is the O'Conor Don, with whom they could surely reach an arrangement if the Irish government is ever willing to listen in the future. The High Kingship used to be rotated anyway. The O'Briens would have remained contenders themselves but they are now widely disliked, perhaps undeservedly. DinDraithou (talk) 01:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Xanderliptak, O'Neill is the hub for all things O'Neill. That's where we need to clear things up. Note that the surname page was daughtered from that to unload the massive list of names (which is even bigger now since you've added different variations). If someone is interested in family history we need to forward them from O'Neill to here, not O'Neill (surname) which is just the list of people and a general blurb on the surname. So if we make it clear on the hub one is for the surname, another for family/history, we should be ok. Think about it, when you type O'Neill and press enter, you don't just automatically find yourself at O'Neill (surname) out of the blue.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

OK as of now, we've got the hub showing the surname and family articles inside one subsection. It ought to be easier for peeps to navigate to the appropriate articles.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:43, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

My apologies, I was simply trying to begin creating an article that would include all the information on the different branches, and figured the surname page would be a persons first stop without having people try to figure out which branch, dynasty or spelling variation they needed for best results. My maternal grandmother is an O'Neill, and I was hoping to map out some early history of the family for her, and found it quite difficult to navigate amongst the numerous pages, which often repeated the same information, to find anything of value. ‡ XANDERLIPTAK 09:53, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

It gets more interesting. There are several Scottish clans, three of them with chiefs, who claim descent from Anrothan O'Neill, an 11th century King of Ailech. Thus we must responsibly include in the expanded article mentions of Clan Maclachlan (among my Scottish ancestors), Clan MacNeill (who need details in their article rewritten), Clan Lamont, Clan MacEwen and of course the enigmatic Clan Sweeney. In addition to these, the Irish McLaughlins are closely related to the O'Neills, belonging to the same dynasty (Cenél nEógain), and contributed some High Kings themselves (Domnall Ua Lochlainn and Muirchertach Mac Lochlainn). They are commonly thought to be of the same lineage as the Scottish Maclachlans but in fact the two meet among the O'Neills. DinDraithou (talk) 14:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I have begun merging and redirecting hte articles. It will be choppy for a bit, but please bear with me and avoiding reverting because of the cut and paste feel. It is a lot of mateial to merge, and I wanted to begin by having it under one article and sorting through it that way. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 22:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Concerned At Political Nature of Article

The O'Neill families exist today. Unsurprisingly they have political views - don't we all ? But these views seem to have crept into this article. Some pointers for extending this:

(1) There is a very good pre-mediaeval and early mediaeval family tree for the O'Neills derived from Celtic manuscripts. This is one of the oldest and best-attested pedigrees in Europe. The article should cite this direct. The current text makes it sound more obscure than it is.

(2) For more modern O'Neills, the article is full of those that remained Catholic and fled Ireland between 1600 and 1800, but fails to mention those who stayed.

(3) Some of those who stayed converted to Protestantism. There were O'Neills on both sides at the Battle of the Boyne.

(4) There are several currently existing landed families in Ulster who are O'Neills, and have (British) noble titles. There seems no reason (bigotry apart) to ignore these descendants of the pre-1600 O'Neills. Copious details can be found in Burke's Peerage. Terence O'Neill (Prime Minister of Northern Ireland in 1960s) is one of them.

(5) There is an arm of the O'Neill family of Clandeboye that went to Virginia in the early 1700s which is ignored here.

(6) The section on Hugo Ricciardi O'Neill is too short - he is easy to contact, sociable and full of information.