Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous

Welcome to the miscellaneous section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

See also:

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

February 5

Identify a Sumo Wrestler

This photo

I'm interested in determining the identity of the guy in the right of this photo (with the brace on his right leg). He has a really hairy chest, and then I noticed that he doesn't appear to be Asian. Is he like some Caucasian guy from New Jersey that decided to become a sumo wrestler? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:27, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:American sumo wrestlers 75.41.110.200 (talk) 05:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

At first glance I thought it was Baruto, arguably the most famous white sumo wrestler in Japan, but on closer study it looks like Kotoōshū Katsunori, who's Bulgarian. Most white guys in Japanese sumo are European; most of the Americans are Hawaiian. FiggyBee (talk) 07:31, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Here are the results of that particular tournament. Could it be Kokkai Futoshi? Clarityfiend (talk) 07:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's Kotooshu. Kokkai is somewhat flabbier, and according to our article Kotooshu has a longstanding injury problem with his right knee, hence the brace. Compare Image:Sumo_May09_Kotooshu.jpg. FiggyBee (talk) 08:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

By the way, I love it how both mentioned wrestlers have ridiculously obvious names. Kotoōshū is just the stable prefix Koto- followed by the Japanese word for Europe (well, he is European, aint he?), and Baruto is just the Japanese word for Baltic with some fancy ateji because, well, the guy is Baltic after all :) --TomorrowTime (talk) 09:29, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I enlarged the photo before reading your comments. I'm sure he is Kaloyan Mahlyanov (Kotoōshū). I am a Bulgarian and I'm not interested in sumo, so I wouldn't be able to recognise anyone or anything else related to sumo except Kaloyan. --62.204.152.181 (talk) 11:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

It's definitely Kotoōshū. --Smashville^talk 22:57, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Craigslist Job Listings

Why do most job listings on craiglist ask you to provide a credit report? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.129.139.60 (talk) 17:56, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe most job listings ask for one. Actually, I rarely see a job listing which asks for one. --Quest09 (talk) 18:06, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

This could depend on the field in which a person is seeking a job. It would make sense for the employer to want a credit report for a person applying for a job that involves handling money, for example. Marco polo (talk) 18:40, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I've never been asked to provide a credit report. Mind you I have never applied for a job through Craigslist. Make sure you don't give sensitive financial information to a prospective employer until you are sure that they are genuine. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:45, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I've never seen a job listing where I was asked to provide my credit report. However, prospective employers have ran my credit report themselves once I had given them my Social Security Number and signed a document allowing them to do so. This almost seems to be standard operating procedure for human resources these days. Bradjamesbrown (talk) 02:10, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

You should probably be alert for identity theft here (phishing)...be sure that this isn't some cunning trick to get your bank account details and social security number from you without there being a real job at the end of it. SteveBaker (talk) 01:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Those Japanese red and white striped　fabric panels

What is the name of those red and white striped fabric panels hung at formal events in Japan? 207.216.177.88 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:10, 5 February 2010 (UTC).

Could you provide a picture of these panels? I just checked out the banner article which led me to the Sashimono article. Do they look anything like that? Dismas|^(talk) 22:35, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

No, they're not sashimono. You can see them in the background in several photos here and here. 207.216.177.88 (talk) 01:02, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

that looks like plain old bunting to me. bunting often takes the colors of the national flag (red and white in japan's case; red white and blue in the US) put in some simple geometric pattern. --Ludwigs2 01:53, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. Bunting in Japanese is とばり, but I get no relevant Google image results and there's no J-Wiki article. 207.216.177.88 (talk) 02:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Ludwigs2 basically has it, (as far as the colours) see Consequences of the Genpei War which says:

"In addition, this war and its aftermath established red and white, the colors of the Taira and Minamoto standards, respectively, as Japan's national colors. Today, these colors can be seen on the flag of Japan, and also in banners and flags in sumo and other traditional activities." (my italics)

The Japanese name however is still eluding us. Japanese for "banner" is apparently Nobori (幟), this appears similar to a Sashimono but longer—220.101.28.25 (talk) 16:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

EUREKA! kōhakumaku (紅白幕) ! (Googled for "Japanese Banner") 4th page in had it, on Wikipedia!--220.101.28.25 (talk) 16:49, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Huzzah! I was in the middle of a long response when you found that, but here's what the Japanese article says, briefly summarized: the colours probably originate in the war flags carried by the Genji (red) and Taira (white), but also represent birth (aka=red, aka-chan=baby) and death (white), i.e: (a person's) life; the traditional clothing worn at weddings (red and white) and to bury the dead (white); and festive foods like sekihan (red rice) and kōhakumanju (a kind of sweet). Interestingly the article doesn't mention the Japanese flag as a source of the colours. Also, unlike bunting, which seems to have a kind of political connotation in that it's associated with political/national events, this stuff isn't generally associated with the emperor and prime minister or with national events like Coming of Age Day (whereas you do see Japanese flags at such events). While it's common at official events like graduation ceremonies, it's also used at outdoor tea ceremony events as a kind of barrier to or mark out the space where the event takes place. So I suppose it's accurate in English to call it a type of bunting (Japanese:とばり), since they are "festive decorations made of fabric," but in Japanese it's obviously conceptually a separate thing. Thanks! 207.216.177.88 (talk) 17:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome, that was fun. re "Interestingly the article doesn't mention the Japanese flag as a source of the colours", the English Genpei War article says fairly straight out that the Genpei War is where the colours come from, but if our friends in Nippon are unsure? Genpei is also supposed to be the source for red and white in the Japanese national (and other) flags. Pretty much everything I have read (in English only) follows this line. Even in Japanese martial arts competitions red & white are frequently used to designate the opponents, and for the judges flags.
A large contributor to the Genpei article is User:LordAmeth "Masters in Japanese Studies"! Lived in Japan for a year and speaks Japanese!. LordAmeth actually wrote the section I quoted in my first reply! May be good to contact them if anything seems doubtful. —220.101.28.25 (talk) 00:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Haha. Thanks for contacting me. I suppose when you put it all out there like that, my credentials sound pretty darn impressive. But I'm still a student, and there are tons of things I don't know; very few things on which I would consider myself an expert. As for the Genpei War, that was one of the first articles I wrote, before most of those other things happened. In any case, I do get the impression that it's a pretty standard story to cite the origins of red & white as the two sides in a competition (e.g. sumo) back to the Genpei War. I get the impression that that is sort of the conventional wisdom. But, as for it being truly hard and fast historical fact, who knows? The events of the Genpei War have been heavily fictionalized and embellished, figures from the Tale of the Heike being turned into legends portrayed over and over again in literature and drama (and later, in TV and film) in all kinds of fictionalized, embellished, and skewed ways. Note the prominence of red and white in Takashi Miike's "Sukiyaki Western Django", a film which is based upon these legends.

I'm afraid I do not have on me right now the books from which I may have gotten that tidbit of information - namely, the idea that the Genpei War marked the origin of the use of red and white as national colors - so I am afraid that I cannot relate exactly what the context was, or exactly how it was phrased in that book. It is important to remember, however, that while red & white have played a major role in Japanese culture (as described by our OP several comments above, in the colors of birth and death, seen at weddings, eaten in sekihan, etc), there could not have been any 'national colors' until the 1860s, when there was first a (modern-style) nation-state of Japan. Up until the Meiji period, there was no "State of Japan" or "Empire of Japan" per se, and no national flag of Japan, as far as I know. The Tokugawa shogunate, and each shogunate and other ruling party before it, had their own crests and banners, their own symbols, and they ruled over a Japanese archipelago not united into a single solid nation-state as today, but united into a confederation perhaps more comparable to the original idea of the United States of America, each state (or feudal domain, in Japan's case) holding a considerable degree of semi-independence, and self-identity, with separate flags or banners, crests, etc.

In short, if kôhakumaku predate the Meiji period, and they might, they would have been derived from all these cultural associations, and perhaps from the red and white of the Taira and Minamoto as well, any 'national flag' or 'national colors' being not really a consideration yet.

Interesting stuff. Thanks for bringing it up. Some casual searching brought me to this website (in Japanese), which describes the various theories as to the origins of the use of red and white as standard colors. I should get back to my studies right now, but in a little while, if I find the time, I'll read it over and share what it has to say. (Anyone else is more than welcome to do so in my place, if they are so inclined.) Cheers. LordAmeth (talk) 03:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I should have exclaimed 'Banzai!' or perhaps 'Sonnō jōi!, Ameth Sama. Thanks for getting back to us. Don't think I have heard of Sukiyaki Western Django, look forward to seeing it sometime. I would hazard a guess that a Stephen Turnbull book would be a likely source. But as you say regarding the website above, our Japanese friends aren't certain either! (Studies first absolutely!) Revere Wikipedia, Expel the Vandals!— 220.101.28.25 (talk) 07:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"Revere Wikipedia, Expel the Vandals". Love it. Brilliant. LordAmeth (talk) 18:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Lows getting me down

Friends, as you can see in this graphic, the high in New York on Friday will be 58°, and the low will be 42°. If I'm looking at that widget on Friday afternoon, can I be assured that it will be 42 some time before Saturday afternoon, or might that temperature have occurred at 1am Friday morning? Is there some convention for what period those high and low predictions cover? If you're obliged to guess whether the low is early Friday or late Friday the utility of the prediction is greatly reduced for no good reason.

Some weatherfolk make the graphic much more understandable by having the lows interstitial between the labelled days, like here, although I guess strictly speaking that could be misleading if we started having nights hotter than the days.

Thanks for any insight. --Sean 20:49, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure this uses the 'conventional' assertion that night is the period of darkness between dusk and dawn, not the 'analytical' assertion that night goes from dusk to midnight. As I used to say in college, it aint a new day till you've been to bed. of course, sometimes that meant it was still tuesday for me when everyone else was on friday, but there are flaws in any system. --Ludwigs2 21:39, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Your graphic certainly does not show the current weather in New York! To answer your question, though, if you are looking at your graphic on Friday, you do not know how low the temperature will get between then and Saturday afternoon. The reason is that when a high and low temperature are listed for a single day, they are indeed referring to the period between midnight and midnight for that day. Normally, the low temperature for a given day will occur around dawn. Normally, the high will occur in the early or mid-afternoon. Occasionally, especially in winter when a strong cold front arrives during the morning, the high temperature for the day will occur in the morning, and the low could be toward midnight of that day. But this is exceptional, and it doesn't change the convention that high and low for a given day are the high and low between midnight and midnight. Marco polo (talk) 02:50, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Trains vs. Cars

Why are some trains so much smoother than cars?

Rails rarely develop potholes. Or is this about their paint jobs? Dismas|^(talk) 23:57, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

You obviously haven't travelled on the square-wheeled trains that British Rail used to provide on some lines in the 1980's. Astronaut (talk) 01:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

this is a joke, right? I've seen pictures of square-wheeled small-gauge trains (it works just fine if the track is designed as a cycloid, and it has novelty value), but I can't imagine anyone would go to the effort of making a commercial grade system. --Ludwigs2 02:06, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's a joke. I'm sure the trains never really had square wheels, but often the ride was far from smooth and definitely worse that I once experienced on a rutted gravel road in a car some years later. Astronaut (talk) 02:12, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you ever taken the subway from Manhattan to Brooklyn? I'd be interested to hear how it compares. --Trovatore (talk) 22:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

more to the point, it's much easier (and much more cost-effective, and much more important) to keep rails in true than to keep highways in repair. a flaw in a roadway will give you a jounce, whereas a flaw in railway can cause a multi-million dollar wreck. --Ludwigs2 01:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the other part of it is weight. When your car hits a bump, the suspension compresses to try to avoid transmitting the force to the body and thence to the passengers. But the body of a train carriage is a lot heavier than a car body - there is a lot more inertia for the springs to overcome, (F=ma - so for the same force, a larger mass undergoes a smaller acceleration) so the ride is smoother. SteveBaker (talk) 03:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, there is usually suspension between the trucks or bogies carrying the wheels (whose "unsprung weight" is an often-quoted technical specification of rail vehicles) and the body of the carriage, both for passenger comfort and to lessen rail damage caused by a jolted-up wheel when it returns to full contact (similar to Hammer blow).

Astronaut's "square wheels" was a humorous hyperbole referring to the results of brake seizure. If a carriage (or locomotive) wheel brake seizes up, the wheel is dragged along the rail without rotation ('wheel slide', as opposed to 'wheel slip' where the wheel loses traction and spins faster than it should) until the brake is freed: this can grind a flat spot into the otherwise smoothly circular steel tyre of the wheel; the longer the seizure, the larger/deeper the flat spot. Once the wheel resumes normal rotation, every time the flat spot hits the rail a jolt is transmitted, which can range from barely noticeable to so severe as to necessitate slowing the train and retiring the carriage asap for repair. (Yes, the legendary schoolchild's excuse for lateness, "The train had a flat tyre", could sometimes be true.)

Modern improvements to train braking systems have greatly reduced instances of seizure and consequent flats, and while in even-more-straightened rail industry times less-than-incapacitating flats might have been ignored for some time, such flats as do now occur are probably rectified more promptly, so the phenomenon is rarer. At the same time, jointed rails which caused a jolt at each joint have increasingly been replaced by Continuous welded rail, eliminating those jolts also.87.81.230.195 (talk) 12:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

On the point about "square wheels", caused by braking. I remember on a vist to the Temple Mills#Railway works as a child, seeing a huge machine like a giant pencil-sharpener that made them round again. Alansplodge (talk) 17:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

hunh. how would that work? I mean, I think it would be particularly important to have train wheels be precisely the same size (otherwise the train would list in odd and dangerous ways), so any 'grinding down' process would seem to be prohibited. --Ludwigs2 22:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

The amount of grinding would be rather small - and the procedure might be preceded by laying in some weld metal to first build up the surface. Also, assuming we're talking about carriage wheels (not locomotive wheels) - they come in pairs with a solid axle. Providing they grind down both wheels to the same diameter, there would be no leaning - and the bogies are not rigidly fixed to the carriage so a tiny amount of forward/backward tilt due to one pair of wheels being a fraction of an inch smaller than the other would hardly matter. SteveBaker (talk) 01:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It is interesting that two carriage wheels joined by a solid axle can follow curves where it would seem that the wheel on the outer rail needs to turn faster than the wheel on the inner rail. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 16:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

February 6

Non-refrigerated lime juice

I have this bottle of Rose's Lime Juice from concentrate that I opened this past Monday, and it wasn't refrigerated. My friend says it should be all right because it's "not pure lime juice." I figure it's probably not still good. Any smartheads have answers? Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme (talk) 03:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

"If in doubt, don't", a maxim which applies equally well to flying light aircraft, sexual liaisons, and stuff left out of the fridge. FiggyBee (talk) 03:32, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

The nose knows. Plus, isn't that stuff pure sugar anyway? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.94.107 (talk) 04:14, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

We've got an article for that: Rose's lime juice. You should check the bottle for labels and warnings. And we are not offering any advice about whether or not it's safe. Shadowjams (talk) 07:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Is there a consumer info telephone number on the bottle? BrainyBabe (talk) 10:51, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I concur with 208. Close as I can figure, the only stuff that is bad for you but won't give it away by smell are things you wouldn't normally think to eat to begin with. Vranak (talk) 11:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC) Postscript: I deleted my comment because I don't want to be upbraided for it, but it was restored, presumably by the user below. So, I know -- dangerously irresponsible yadda yadda yadda. Vranak (talk) 15:53, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec)A related issue was discussed recently (Feb. 1) at the Science Desk HERE. See also Shelf Life. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 11:37, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a smarthead but I am certain that you need to think about three things. Does the 'lime juice' look abnormal or unusual? cloudiness or the visual presence of mould will alert you to a possible problem. Does it smell different from previously? Has anyone else or anything obvious got into the bottle since you used it? If you are happy with these questions then go for it and use it. The chances of a harmful organism contaminating your 'lime juice' in a couple of days (or much longer) is vanishingly small. For many years I have kept bottles of 'fruit juice' concentrate in non-refrigerated bottles for months, as millions do, and I have never in decades had a problem with any form of contamination. The other question I ask myself is why have you not just dumped the stuff and made some more?!! Richard Avery (talk) 13:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

[1] says "In 1867, Lauchlin Rose patented a process for sweetening and preserving lime juice. That same year, Britain passed the Merchant Shipping Act, requiring all ships to carry rations of lime juice for their crews. Rose’s sales soared, maritime scurvy was largely eradicated, and the world was bequeathed the enduring epithet 'limey.' ” From this one can deduce that the unrefrigerated preservation time of Rose's Lime Juice is longer than the time for onset of Scurvy. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Long live the Limeys!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.186.107 (talk) 22:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks guys, I'm just gonna go for, it looks and smells fine. Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme (talk) 05:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok guys,if we never see Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotmeagain then we know what the first suspect is... :) Lemon martini (talk) 10:29, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Collection of free, high-quality computer fonts

Can someone suggest a collection of versatile, high-quality, and freely available computer fonts? The collection doesn't have to be large—something on the order of 3 to 4 dozens will be enough. The fonts should be free of duplications or near-duplications—if there are two fonts in the collections, they should be stylistically far enough apart to make it make sense to include both. Thanks. --173.49.16.103 (talk) 03:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

See [2] but beware of Godwins law (Video). Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:25, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Indian food

Do people of other Nations like to have Indian food?

thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.248.68 (talk) 11:06, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I can answer a little bit for the U.S. and Britain. Yes. Britain certainly has its share of Indian restaurants. The U.S. does too, although the density is almost directly linear to the Indian population. I have no evidence for that, other than living in the U.S. A bunch of people are going to give you some personal experiences.

Here's mine. As for the U.S., I can give you some vague ideas. Indian food has two hurdles to overcome. 1) Heat and 2) Curry. Among young people in major metro areas neither is a problem. I would say confidently that most major U.S. cities are quite comfortable with Indian food. In mid-size metro areas, especially in Texas and the South, that the curry element might dissuade some older people. There are lots of Indian immigrants in the U.S. so U.S. tastes will depend on age and how soon those restaurants became normal. In the southern U.S., Mexican food is commonplace, as it is in California. But in the American north east, my personal experience is that Mexican food is nowhere near as widespread. Same goes for other cuisines. Shadowjams (talk) 11:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

According to Britain's Food Standards Agency, the Indian food industry in the United Kingdom is worth £3.2 billion, accounts for two-thirds of all eating out and serves about 2.5 million British customers every week. So I'd say Indian food is quite popular over here. Vimescarrot (talk) 11:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Anecdotally it seems to have grown in popularity here in Canada over the past five years. I suppose I see more Indian recipes, and advertisments abound for Indian ingredients, and there's more Indian cooks appearing on television, and I personally have been to Indian restaurants dozens of times in that time period, but before 2005, never. It's just so different to your usual White Person fare, and delicious, that it's no surprise how popular it has become. Vranak (talk) 11:25, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Indian cuisine such as whale meat or sacred bear[3] cooked in an empty bison stomach is seldom served in America these days. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:13, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, one does have to be careful about being ambiguous around here. Sounds a little like haggis actually;-) —220.101.28.25 (talk) 14:40, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

If you had a stuffed whale stomach, that would be one big honkin' Inuit haggis. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Dunno where you're from Cuddly but here in Canada we refer to our red men as 'Native', 'First Nations', or 'Aboriginal'. We don't duplicate Columbus' error in perpetuity. Vranak (talk) 15:50, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

But I think you in Canada still do that. Quote: "In this (1982 Constitution) Act, 'aboriginal peoples of Canada' includes the Indian, Inuit and Métis peoples of Canada." Cuddlyable3 (talk) 02:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

There is/are apparently a sizable number of American Indians, at least, who don't mind at all being called Indians. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I am aware, but if people sat down and thought about how that appellation came into being, perhaps they would refrain from perpetuating it. Vranak (talk) 17:14, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure the American Indians who are fine with it are also fully aware of the (possibly purposeful) use of that term by ol' Chris. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:50, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Believing that word meanings that have lately developed and are in dictionaries can now be reversed is like inviting Wikipedians to gay intercourse. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Well all I'm saying is that each of us can choose to go around perpetuating a piece of idiocy, or refuse to accept the status quo. Nevermind what the people themselves think or say. It's not about political correctness, it's about knowing your history and not going along the moronic masses. Vranak (talk) 15:29, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

There are those who think that those who adhere to political correctness are the real lemmings. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:31, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way... "red men"? That term is practically obsolete in the USA, as it's pretty close to "redskins", which is only heard now in connection with a football team in Washington, DC. Also, the activist group American Indian Movement doesn't seem to have a problem with that term. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:38, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This is me giving up on you Bugs! Vranak (talk) 16:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, come on, you can do better than that. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Is it polite even in Canada to call people "moronic masses"?

File:Ape shaking head.gif Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

People always think that when someone talks disparagingly about groups that it doesn't apply to them. So no harm, no foul. Vranak (talk) 17:31, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

We Brits had a bit of a head start with Indian food; our involvement in the Indian Empire meant that Anglo-Indian dishes like curry, kedgeree and mulligatawny were on the menu in most Victorian middle-class families. A history of Indian food in Britain is here[4]. It is truly part of our national culture now; I am writing this from the Hertfordshire village of Cuffley (population: 4,925) which boasts two Indian restaurants. Alansplodge (talk) 17:19, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Most anything would beat kidney pie, I should think. Lutefisk with curry. Mmmm... ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:50, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

It's actually "Steak and Kidney Pie" and it's really delicious when cooked properly. It's one of the few items of British cuisine that my French wife likes to cook (and you know how the French are about food!). Please don't knock it unless you've tried it.

Certainly Indian food is insanely popular in the UK. It would be hard to find even a fairly small village without at least one Indian restaurant. There is no doubt that this was originally popularized by people returning home from the British rule over India - but subsequently, the popularity has grown immensely. Sadly, I have to say that a large part of the reason for this lies in the British pub/bar licensing laws. Since the pubs shut before people have really finished partying - they look for other places where they can carry on drinking. Because restaurants are covered by different laws, they can continue to serve beer (with food) long after the pubs have had to shut. Since Indian restaurants are only too happy to serve beer and the phrase "Let's go for a curry afterwards!" is heard throughout British pubs around closing time! Don't get me wrong though - the food is very popular too and it's available as take-out - and all of the ingredients for cooking it yourself can be found in any British supermarket. Here in the US, Indian restaurants are nowhere near so common and tend to be somewhat more up-market. For a long time when I lived in the Dallas/Fort-Worth metroplex, there were only about 3 Indian restaurants serving a population of about 6 million people! They are becoming more common - but still nothing close to the scale in the UK. Finding ingredients for cooking your own Indian-style food is getting easier - but generally you need to find a supermarket that specializes in that kind of thing if you want something reasonably authentic. Some of the best food I've ever eaten comes from a very modest Indian restaurant in a strip-mall near where I live that serves only vegetarian food...it's truly amazing stuff. SteveBaker (talk) 00:57, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure kidney pie is good. I was just alluding to the fact that British cuisine has a reputation for being bland, and that the Brits' embracing of Indian food probably speaks to that at least in part. John Cleese was once asked why the British never developed great cuisine, and he said, "Well, we had an empire to run, you see!" There are only so many hours in the day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

For a hilarious Anglo-Indian view of English cuisine, look here :). -- Arwel Parry (talk) 12:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah - they really nailed it! :-) SteveBaker (talk) 18:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

British food is certainly not bland anymore than all Americans live on burgers and coke.hotclaws 11:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

We do, actually. :) The old saw is, "If your guests are French, serve Italian. If they're Italian, serve French. And if they're English, boil anything." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

A rustier saw is: In Heaven the British are soldiers, the French cook the food, the Germans make the machines, the Italians are lovers and the Swiss count the money. In Hell the Italians are soldiers, the British cook the food, the French make the machines, the Italians count the money and the Swiss are lovers. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

British cuisine has given the world some outstanding dishes - fish and chips, kedgeree, toad in the hole - and of course the ever-popular chicken tikka masala. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, American cuisine isn't much better. When you take away the foreign imports (no mexican, no italian...no pizza for chrissakes!) you really don't have much left. (There is a reason I married a French woman!)

British cuisine was once much better - the fact that an entire generation lived through food rationing in two world wars must have put a severe kink in the number of more traditional dishes that were passed on from that generation to the next - and the post-war generation had a hard time of things. It's only now that imported food styles (such as Indian food) are gradually livening things up. If you pick up an original copy of Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management from the 1860's (not one of the heavily amended modern versions) you'll see that the Victorians had a really wide cuisine with much more variety than was evident in the 1950's and 60's - and there is much in there to love.

SteveBaker (talk) 18:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I was talking about this with my mother just the other day. Her mother learnt to cook in the 40s and 50s, when food and money were tight, so the emphasis was on cooking cheap thing reliably in a way that eked them out and would be eaten by everyone. You couldn't afford to cook something that didn't work, or some people didn't like enough to eat it. She, in turn, taught my mother based on what she could cook, which was mostly based on a few reliable recipes. She tells the story of the day her Dad made spaghetti bolognese, what a big deal it was, how hard it was to get the ingredients. My mother is a confident cook who experiments, but she rarely cooks for pleasure or makes something if she isn't sure people will like it. The difference between the generations is huge.

I recall reading that the art of basic peasant cookery was already mostly lost in England before the world wars, things like making a cheap soup from whatever was going. 86.179.145.61 23:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.145.61 (talk)

Balvenie Vintage Cask Listing

Dear Sirs;

I maintain a listing of The Blavenie Vintage Casks. I have gathered this information from all over the world, some from printed material, most from other people who own these bottles and some from my own collection. Being that William Grant (the owners of Balvenie) does not provide anything of this sort and I have no official standing with them, how do I make this information available to others who may be interested in it? I had posted in the Balvenie page but your person in charge of watching that page, GreyWyvern, deemed it "ripe for vandels" and since I had no authoritative citings, removed it.

If you wish to see the listing I can provide a copy at your request. Since this is a "living" document I do updates when I get further information from other collectors.

Please respond to: email address removed

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.39 (talk) 15:18, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid the Wikipedia is not the place for this information, as Wikipedia does not allow original research. If you can get your collection written up in a referred journal, it could be referenced in Wikipedia, but not otherwise. Please see WP:RS. I'm sure there are other places on the web, but not here.

Incidentally, there is nobody "in charge of watching" any page. All editors, including you and me, can edit any page, and can (and should) remove material that does not meet Wikipedia's standards. --ColinFine (talk) 15:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

There are lots of places on the web (some of them free) where you could maintain your list. Why not approach William Grant & Sons about including your list on the Balvenie website? Dbfirs 16:32, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

You could establish a blog at a service like Blogger or start a website at Google Sites or the like, and post and maintain your data, and try to promote it in order to make the information more known. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Try contacting the Scotch Malt Whisky Society [www.smws.co.uk], who should be able to help with this as they publish a magazine. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:40, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

GreyWyvern was doing the right thing by removing this information - it certainly doesn't belong here. So now you need to either find an existing website that might be interested in hosting your information (and I agree that asking William Grant & Son whether they are interested in hosting it is a reasonable idea)...or you have to get a website of your own. That's something that costs money to do well (I pay $10 a month for web hosting) - or something you can probably get for free if you don't mind being littered with adverts and limited in how you design your site. But Wikipedia is not a place to do that. Sorry! SteveBaker (talk) 01:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Soccer own goals

Watching the Man United V Portsmouth game and Portsmouth are down as having scored 3 OG's and was wondering what is the most amount of OG's scored in a soccer game? And not the 149 scored in protest I mean legitimate ones, Thanks BigDunc 17:10, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Side question: What match had 149 OGs scored? I googled "149 OGs" and didn't see anything. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:25, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Answer to side question: "AS Adema defeated Stade Olymique L'Emyrne (SOE) 149-0 in 2002, without scoring a goal themselves. SOE started scoring own goals in protest of bad refereeing decisions..." - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 18:29, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec) AS Adema 149–0 SO l'Emyrne. Nanonic (talk) 18:30, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Nice, thanks; glad we have an article. I added to its talk page a request for some future editor to explain what the protest was about. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:11, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

One would think the refs would have stopped the match when it was clear that one team was making a mockery of it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:37, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Three own goals in one match has happened on a few occasions: Stan Van Den Buys managed three on his own. Some internet reports claimed that there were four own goals in Rangers' Champions League match against Unirea Urziceni earlier this season, but reports in the newspapers only have three. Warofdreams talk 21:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

@ Bugs, the referee is unable to stop a game for such a reason. The rules don't allow it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.186.107 (talk) 22:38, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Really? I thought the referee could abandon a match for any reason, as well. I guess that's not the case. Xenon54 / talk / 22:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

The idea that the refs are not in charge of the game doesn't make sense. If the officials see that the match is being played as a farce, they could state as much and walk off the field and go home. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and they could also lay about the offending players with clubs. In either case they would be overstepping their authority under the laws of the game, and would be subject to disciplinary action by their FA. The laws allow the ref to abandon the game due to infringements of the laws or due to outside interference, not because he's decided the game is a farce. Algebraist 00:51, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Then the refs are not in charge of the game, the players are. Something's wrong there. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's a Snopes writeup about a team that was able to advance in a tournament by scoring a goal against itself.[5] This kind of thing, along with the bizarre notion that players can show up the refs and that the refs are powerless to do anything about, is one more example of why soccer is not taken seriously in the USA. In American sports, any player suspected of deliberately trying to lose, or to do something outrageous to show up the officials, I assure you would be tossed from the game and likely given a long suspension. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The official FIFA rules [6] say that: "The referee [...] stops, suspends or abandons the match, at his discretion, for any infringements of the Laws", that "A referee (or where applicable, an assistant referee or fourth oficial) is not held liable for: [...] a decision to abandon a match for whatever reason" and that "A player is cautioned and shown the yellow card if he commits any of the following seven offences :

• unsporting behaviour

• dissent by word or action

• persistent infringement of the Laws of the Game

[...]"

Based on this, I beg to differ with Algebraist. Persistantly and deliberatly scoring own goals as an act of protest against the ref would very likely be dissent by action, which is an infringement of the Laws. That allows the ref to abandon the match. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 02:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why the refs let it go on and on. Unless they thought it was funny. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It was certainly unsporting behaviour. Scoring one own goal because you believe your team benefitted unfairly from a refereering mistake is one thing, but to make a mockery of a whole match because you are miffed is quite another, but not in the least surprising in a game like football. You wouldn't see that kind of silliness on a rugby pitch. DuncanHill (talk) 02:21, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

No there'd never be any mockery of the spirit of the game in rugby...Bloodgate comes to mind, as does Kevin Yates (biting the ear of an opponent isn't exactly sporting). That said footballers do have a bit of a respect problem in terms of how they treat match officials and could learn a lot from the way that rugby players (for the most part) get on with the game regardless of the ref's decision. ny156uk (talk) 09:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The Snopes writeup was about a game that was indeed a farce but there was no protest involved, they were just trying to exploit a loophole in the rules. Vaguely reminds me an NHL game at the end of the 1969-70 season, where the Montreal Canadiens needed to score a certain number of goals to make the last remaining playoff spot, even if they lost. So, down 5-2 or some such against the Chicago Blackhawks, the Canadiens pulled their goalie with 9 1/2 minutes to go, in favor of an extra attacker, and suddenly the game turned into basketball. The effort was futile, as the Habs failed to score and gave up 5 empty-netters (still an NHL record as far as I know). But the game was played fairly and under the rules. In the 149-0 soccer game, the refs, after about the third one of those deliberate own-goals, should have said, "Stop it or the match is over now," instead of just letting it roll on. In the old days of baseball, and even sometimes in recent times, a team might be angry at some situation and either refuse to take the field or pull its team off the field, and if they refuse to play, then the game's over and they forfeit. No beating around the bush. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:33, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This report suggests that the Fédération Malagasy de Football were likely to declare the 149-0 game "null and void". In fact, the losing team's coach and some players were suspended, but the referee was not punished - I'll add this info to the article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Now done. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:51, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

But, Bugs, in American football, teams score safeties against themselves all the time to give themselves an advantage in kickoff space. Woogee (talk) 06:50, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course they do. Why do you think it's called a "safety"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me — what in the hell are you two talking about? I have never seen an NFL team "score safeties against themselves" intentionally. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The original rule was that if you took a safety, you got the ball back on the 20, as it was treated as a touchback. When one team, leading 7-0, took three consecutive safeties to run the clock out, the rule was changed that you have to kick the ball away from your 20. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:17, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• Back to the OP anyone now what was the most OG'S scored? BigDunc 10:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Bird Song

I am composing a song with FL Studio and it starts out with a sort of natural sound of waves crashing and some birds singing. However, I havent been able to find any good clip of birds calling out, despite looking on YouTube for a few hours. Does anyone know birds well enough to reccommend a type of bird to look for? i want something that sounds soothing, relaxing, not harsh. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

137.81.112.254 (talk) 20:03, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Australian magpie song in the late afternoon is good. But unfortunately no one has recorded songs for you here! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:08, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Blackbird, Robin, Mistle Thrush, Blackcap, Willow Warbler, Skylark. --TammyMoet (talk) 21:11, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Are you specifically looking for songbirds, or just any sort of bird call? With waves crashing in the begining, seagulls might be an appropriate choice. Another waterbird with a very distinctive call is the common loon. I find it soothing, but I think that some people find it a bit spooky. Ducks can have nice vocals too, though at that point you're a long way from "birds singing". Buddy431 (talk) 21:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Taking an audio clip from a YouTube video would almost certainly be a breach of copyright. You shouldn't do that. However, Wikipedia's sister project "Wiki Commons" has an impressive collection of birdsong audio clips - all of which may be used in your song with a fairly reasonable set of restrictions (like you have to credit them). Check out [7] - and please do check the rules for their use, which is listed at the bottom of every page. SteveBaker (talk) 00:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Surely taking a brief clip of birds calling would be fair use? Woogee (talk) 06:51, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Fair Use laws are complicated and highly contextual. Because we're not allowed to give legal advice, I could only recommend you seek an experienced copyright lawyer if you intend to claim "Fair Use". SteveBaker (talk) 18:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Thats what i was wondering. I don't intend to pretend that i recorded some sound clip, i just want some nice birds to go with the start of the song. 137.81.112.254 (talk) 10:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether you pretend to have recorded it yourself or whether you acknowledge the person who made the original recording - it's still a copyright violation unless you either obtain a license to use the material or can claim exception under the (complicated and tricky) "Fair Use" provisions. SteveBaker (talk) 18:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

As a note, i like the robin as suggested byTammyMoet, but i also acknowledge the idea that the bird should be water related, as Buddy431 says.

137.81.112.254 (talk) 10:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The BBC (and probably others) used to publish themed LPs of various sounds specifically intended for general use as sound effects in, for example, play performances: these certainly included volumes of various individual and background bird calls, dawn choruses etc. You could try googling on Sound Effects Libraries or some variations thereof, or consult, say, a local theatre which might have similar recordings (probably now digital) for their own use. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 11:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Those recordings (of which I own a few) specifically DO NOT allow you to sell reproductions of them. They aren't copyright free - you are given very specific rights (eg to use them in live performances) - but specifically denied others. This case - which involves re-recording and subsequent distribution - is explicitly forbidden. SteveBaker (talk) 18:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Matchboxes

Why are matchboxes often divided into two sections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SamUK (talk • contribs) 22:37, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

To keep the matches tidy. (More convenient as a double-box divided internally than as a long narrow box.) Dbfirs 22:39, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I haven't noticed any dual section matchboxes but it seems a good idea to provide a compartment to collect used matches rather than creating more litter or mixing used with unused. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 02:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Judging by the OP's username, I'm curious if this is a UK thing. I've never seen a matchbox with two sections here in the US. Dismas|^(talk) 04:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Well I've never seen one in the UK, but I've probably seen less than ten boxes in my whole life. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

In the UK, I think these divisions only occur in large boxes of matches for household use such as these, rather than the usual small boxes. Dbfirs is correct. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:36, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, boxes of Cook's Matches are divided by a cardboard divider across the width (shorter dimension) of the box. It may be relevant that Cook's Matches are short matches - slightly less than the width of the box - so the purpose of the divider may be to prevent the matches all sliding down to one end of the box. Bryant and May sell matches in a similar size box, but they are longer - almost as long as the box - and the box is not divided. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:57, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

(EC) This certainly used to be common in the UK of the mid-to-late 20th century, back before the ubiquity of cheap disposable lighters and piezoelectric appliance ingiters when matches were an essential everyday tool. Very broadly, matches intended to be carried in the pocket (by cigarette smokers or others) were more often safety matches (requiring a chemical impregnating the box's striking surface to ignite, so that they would not be ignited by being jostled around), were usually short (since cigarettes light quickly), and commonly came in single-compartment boxes of around 40. Household matches (for lighting fires, gas stoves, paraffin heaters, etc) were more often non-safety matches (that would light on any rough surface), were longer (as fireplace fuels, for example, may take longer to ignite) and often came in larger capacity boxes (say, 100) which were for both latter reasons larger and often divided in half across their shorter dimension, in part (I assume) to minimise spillages if the box were dropped. There were of course many exceptions to these rough categories. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 11:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Two iconic brands in the UK (funny how we can get so attached to something that mundane); Swan Vesta which are subdivided and England's Glory which aren't. Alansplodge (talk) 15:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

February 7

Sovereign Immunity

With regards to Sovereign immunity in the United States, I don't exactly understand the premise behind such a law other than the obvious bias that anyone (or organization, for that matter) would love to exclude itself from following any law that could result in a loss. I watched some recent CNN video about the Navy–Vieques protests, and disregarding the facts of the case, if it can be taken as a given that the US would be liable if they could be taken to court, what is the conceptual basis for such immunity, other than the US government being above the law? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

If the fed were not generally immune to suits as per the provisions of these laws, try to imagine how much your tax dollars would increase to cover the costs of the endless suits filed against the government for every cockamamie thing anyone could think of. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:04, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The Sovereignty exercised by Sovereign states (here is a list of them) is having supreme, independent authority over a territory. It can be found in a power to rule and make law that rests on a political fact for which no purely legal explanation can be provided. The US has so far chosen not to submit to any ruling by International Criminal Court. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 02:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Bullies do not like to comply with anyone else's directives. Edison (talk) 04:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This flag dips for no earthly king. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:51, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Really? 220800 22:34:43 - 22:47:38 1968 COL SIL White House and Riots in D.C. following assassination of Martin Luther King South side of White House, fountain in foreground, flag flying at half mast on White House.(source).Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Half-staff is not dipping. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

...and I can't possibly convey how deeply impressed the rest of the world is with that. (sheesh!) SteveBaker (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

And we are equally impressed with the rest of the world. :) At what point did the USA agree to abide by what a group of other nations wanted? Are we in breach of some treaty or formal agreement? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Trail of Broken Treaties, [[Gnadenhütten massacre|]] [[Fall Creek Massacre|]] [[Battle of Bad Axe|]] [[Bloody Island Massacre|]] [[1860 Wiyot Massacre|]] [[Bear River Massacre|]] [[Sand Creek Massacre|]] [[Battle of Washita River|]] [[Marias Massacre|]] [[Cypress Hills Massacre|]] [[Fort Robinson Massacre|]] [[Wounded Knee Massacre|]] No, I don't see a problem. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The serious answer to all of this should be in our Sovereign immunity article, but to the extent that it's not...the ability of a sovereign (read: monarch) to be free from suits against the crown has been a constant in common law jurisprudence, obviously pre-dating the Magna Carta but more notably, succeeding that document, for a while now. At the adoption of the constitution in the recently independent colonies, every one of the 13 colonies seemed to be pretty damn sure that they weren't giving citizens the power to sue them in their own courts. It was assumed as well that those citizens couldn't sue them in federal court either, although Chisholm v. Georgia suggested otherwise. The reaction to Chisholm is hard to describe in today's terms. The constitutional amendment that followed, the 11th amendment, without question rejected the Supreme Court's decision there, and made it clear that sovereign immunity applied to the states in federal court. It was a swift response to say the least. There was a similar, basic assumption that it applied in state court too. The best modern explanation is Alden v. Maine. I don't know, and won't bore you with, the developments since then, but the basic assumption of sovereign immunity, which at its core is quite inequitable, is based on these assumptions and cases. Shadowjams (talk) 11:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Disclaimer: Wikipedia does not offer legal advice on suits against sovereigns. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Most government actions have winners and losers. If the losers got to sue the government for their losses every time, the government wouldn't be able to do anything. Imagine if businesses could sue the government to recoup their added payroll costs from a minimum wage increase or the costs of complying with a new environmental regulation. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Ninjas

How did real life ninjas have all the crazy powers? --75.28.169.54 (talk) 02:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Check out the linked article, and don't believe everything you see in the movies. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

What crazy powers, praytell? Vranak (talk) 12:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Disappearing, shapeshifting, etc. --75.28.53.135 (talk) 13:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Post-production special effects. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

They have real ultimate power!! Adam Bishop (talk) 14:24, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Or they had good publicists who spread those rumors. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking that the false assumption built into the question would be a little like asking, "How do Santa's reindeer fly in real life?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:26, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, straightforward answer: They could presumably do anything a martial arts master can do. They could not do anything that humans cannot do, such as disappering, shape-shifting, or whatever. That stuff was a fable. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to suspend my disbelief and assume this question was asked in earnest. Where do you get the idea that ninjas can disappear or shapeshift? Moreover, where do you get the impression that ninjas even exist in contemporary society? Vranak (talk) 14:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

His question was in the past tense. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:55, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Alright. I'm done here. Vranak (talk) 15:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The Ninjas were merely well-trained fighters with some cleverly designed gadgets and an unconventional approach to combat for that era. They made their money hiring themselves out as bodyguards, assassins and general mercenaries. Hence it was in their interests to encourage rumors about these supernatural abilities...whether they had them or not. When some important guy gets assassinated by Ninjas, his bodyguards would of course claim that the attackers had super powers! So a Ninja who merely remembered to stay in the shadows and to wear clothing that blended in to his surroundings would inflate his ability to "becoming invisible" or "changing shape". Popular culture has inflated these claims still further and movie special-effects and camera trickery are inflating these claims still further. So we may be very sure that Ninjas did not in fact do anything that any reasonably fit, well-trained, intelligent human couldn't do. SteveBaker (talk) 17:50, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Only the whole idea about ninjas wearing black so they could blend into the night is not historical but actually taken from bunraku theater. That said, ninjas did use some impressive evasive techniques, like throwing smoke bombs (and some less impressive ones, like throwing money). TomorrowTime (talk) 22:29, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Aw man, I managed to get Real Ultimate Power AFDed just my mentioning it here...Adam Bishop (talk) 00:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Actualy, when it comes to the shape shifting, they hay a sertain art they trained in. it not so much as "shape shifting" as it was making there body look like somthing else in the shadows as well as other things. A few examples are the water Style, which was basicly training to be able to go from a full sprint and into somthing like a pond with out making a sound, and another style which name i cant recall was to twist there body or pop pertain joints out of place so that they apaired to be a Box or some other object in the darkness. as for the Disapearing, i read of one ninja that would pre Dig a hole outside of his targets dwelling and cover it with a wooden Circle that was Camo-ed so after if he was being persude he could literaly "vanish"--Talk Shugoːː 18:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Digital home audio recorders

Are there any home audio components that record digitally, non-compressed (i.e. not MP3) onto a hard drive or into RAM, and can then burn a CD? Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 05:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

That is, it has phono jack inputs. And instead of burning a CD directly, it would be OK to transfer an audio file to the computer to burn the CD. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 06:23, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Alternatively, a 1/4" stereo line-level input will work. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 06:36, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

You can or could get stand alone audio CD recorders [8], however unless they are professional models they usually require special CDs which cost more (nowadays probably an extreme amount more) because they require royalties to the record companies under the assumption anyone using them most be copying music without the copyright owner's permission (and also because they are rather rare). However these record fairly directly and don't keep the content on a HD first. And they probably generally can't be paused. So I'm not sure if this will fulfill your requirements. You can of course just use a computer, is there any reason this isn't sufficient? If you need the device to be highly portable or discreet, perhaps some sort of netbook or nettop or PVR/media computer? I don't know if they usually come with audio in (well the PVR/media computer would), but a USB soundcard should provide that. It sounds likely to be easier and maybe even cheaper then some sort of stand alone HDD audio recording device. If you need it to be more portable then that (although 'home' and the use of a hard drive suggests to me it's for a fixed location) [9] may help although it's fairly old, and [10] provides some pointers and there seem to be many such devices usually with mics but sometimes also with line-in, e.g. [11]. It may help if you more clearly specify what you want. I get you want uncompressed (which probably isn't that hard particularly if the product has a HD) and the ability to burn CDs and a phono input or stereo line-level input, but I'm confused by the rest, e.g. why you didn't just think of a computer. Are you wanting something with an amplifier or that functions like a home theater receive in addition to the ability to record? Nil Einne (talk) 11:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I doubt this stuff about special CDs, by the way. I also endorse just using your PC to record the uncompressed audio. Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I have a stand-alone CD recorder, but I don't want to record to directly to CD because of editing and reliability issues. I want to hook into an audio system rather than use a computer. I need to look at those links in more detail, but that is at least close to what I want (but I don't need portability or built-in mikes and I'd rather have it powered by A/C than batteries). Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 16:34, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

(EC) So for clarification, you want something that is capable of recording and also functions as an amplifier and receiver? Such a device may exist although I should warn you that you're usually limited in your ability to record from HDMI and even S/PDIF which may discourage people from buying such devices and therefore vendors from bothering to make them Nil Einne (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

No, to hook into a home audio system, but does not need an amplifier or receiver. Think of replacing a cassette deck. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 16:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This is the closest I've been able to find to what I want. However, I'd rather have a home audio component with remote control that uses A/C that doesn't have built-in microphones. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 19:20, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that doesn't fit the bill because the 1/4" line level jacks need a balanced line level signal. Which brings up another question: how can you go from unbalanced line-level phono jacks to balanced TRS 1/4" jacks? Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 19:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

From your requirements I still think a computer is a good bet. You can easily add a remote. A case that makes it look like a normal home audio component isn't hard either. Adding a LCD display (I don't mean a monitor, I mean one like you'd get on a typical audio device of this sort), buttons (there are cases with these two) and making it completely headless without ever requiring any external control it may be a bit more difficult but is probably doable with an appropriate Linux or *BSD set up and may not be as hard as you think given your limited requirements. There may even be people who've already done something like that you can copy. And the benefit of being able to change things if you ever need and having complete control over the set up seems to lean in that direction. But perhaps that's just the geek in me speaking (I admit I don't think I'd ever buy a stand alone CD recorder).

Anyway the main reason for my post is I did come across the Yamaha CDR-HD1500 which sounds like it'll be of interest to you [12] when researching below. It can record to HDD and then record that to (music) CDR. However transferring the content to or from a PC isn't easy since it lacks any useful data link other then a RS-232 serial connection which you can use to rename tracks and stuff but would be useless in trying to transfer content. But it sounded to me like the ability to transfer to PC wasn't so important if the device could already burn CDRs so I thought/hope that won't be a big issue. Sadly discontinued [13] [14] but I saw one that claimed to be new on Ebay for a rather high price.

There's also a used one currently at a reasonable price and a few have sold in the last few days. While you may be concerned about buying used, other then cosmetic issues, it seems to me the most likely problem is the hard disk may fail but it seems changing HDD isn't that hard (and in the same vein with the above comment connecting the HDD to a computer is the only real way to transfer content other then by burning it to CDR) and in theory any hard drive up to 2TB should work [15]. PATA or SATA I don't know (http://www.avforums.com/forums/hi-fi-systems-separates/231464-yamaha-cdr-hd1500-9.html) but it shouldn't be a big issue just an added expense since AFAIK PATA are still widely available and likely to be for a while and you can probably use a converter if necessary. The only other likely problem may be the optical drive may fail, but it seems that's also just a standard drive (not actually that uncommon nowadays I believe) which is still available new albeit for an insane price [16]. And it sounds like it (or at least the older model, but they seem to use the same drive) may work with any CDR drive anyway, the only problem is the face plate may not work although at a guess you could fix that in some cases. Okay there could be a problem with fans failing as well, but from the sound of it, it uses fairly standard PC components and a guess you could probably replace them without too much issue. (This sort of thing does exemplify my comment, at a guess, this itself is basically a specialised PC, probably running a stripped down version of some OS, in other words something you could do yourself.)

The Yamaha CDR 1500 does appear to have normal RCA input. But if you do decide to go with something with a balanced line it doesn't sound like it'll be a hard problem to fix since it must be fairly common, the earlier article has some pointers and a quick search comes up with [17] http://ask.metafilter.com/67270/DIY-Balanced-Audio-CableORama] [18] [19] [20] [21] which probably meet or exceed your needs (okay they mostly look ugly but shouldn't be that hard to hide).

Nil Einne (talk) 18:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the long detailed message. The Yahama does sound like it fits the bill. I don't like the fact that it has been discontinued and there doesn't seem to be anything else like it.

As far as using a computer, I'm looking for a permanent solution. My computer is downstairs and my music room is upstairs, so I can't be moving all of that equipment around every time I need it. So that would mean getting another computer (although it could be a cheap one.) And then a big question is how good are the A/D converters in computer sound cards compared to something like this M-Audio unit (which I am considering)? Which would have the better A/D converter - it or a computer? Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 01:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The existance and requirement of special music CDs for stand alone consumer audio recorders is well documented [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27], I've even seen them in a physical shop before if the Amazon and manufacturer links aren't enough to convince you. It is basically a legal requirement in the US AFAIK thanks to the Audio Home Recording Act which mandated the Serial Copy Management System amongst other things. So I'm not really sure what there is to doubt... It's possible that it's easier to buy stand alone devices that don't need music CDs nowadays particularly outside the US (I don't know, it's just a random guess), but this is of course a different matter. Nil Einne (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

That's absolutely not true. Sure, I've seen the "special for Music" CD-R's in stores too - and I've had a good laugh at the idiots who buy them. I am almost 100% sure it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whether you use one of those or a regular recordable CD. Bits are just bits and it doesn't matter a damn what they contain! The "Orange Book" standard (See Rainbow Books - which I contributed to when I worked on the Philips Research team that made the first ever CD-ROM player) - covers both music CD's and data CD's and there is absolutely no mention in there about needing "special" disks for music versus data (the whole reason the book is "Orange" is because it's a standard that encompasses the "Red Book" standard for CD audio and the "Yellow Book" standard for CD-ROM - it's called "ORANGE" because it merges the CD-audio and CD-ROM standards and adds the specifications for recordable media). A CD recorder that refused to record music to both CD-R and CD-RW would be in breach of those rules and would be in violation of the license they pay to Philips/SONY for the privilage of using their patents.

There are two considerations that MIGHT matter (but I doubt it):

• One is that there are a wild variety of recordable formats (CD-R, CD-RW, etc) and not all players can record on all kinds at all speeds. That might mean that for your recorder, CD-R's don't work but the ones labelled "For Music" happen to work because they are CD-RW rather than CD-R or something.
• The other possibility is that since these "For Music" CD's are three times the price of regular recordable CD's - they might maybe be of higher quality.

However, I don't believe there is any technical reason that you need different kinds of media for recording music.

The Serial Copy Management System only prevents digital-to-digital copying and doesn't have anything to do with the media that's used - it's prevented inside the electronics of digital-to-digital recorders and has nothing whatever to do with analog recording.

IMHO, these "For Music" CD's are appealing to the same gang of idiot audiophiles who think that gold-plated USB connectors add more "depth" and "presence" to digital recordings than the regular kind of USB cables. These are people who are just begging to be ripped-off and the industry is more than happy to print "MUSIC!" on the side of a box of regular CD's and charge them three times as much for the privilage.

SteveBaker (talk) 17:41, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

In the US at least, in contrast to a computer CD writer, an unmodified home audio CD recorder will not record to a non-music (data) CD. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 00:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I over linked earlier but the technical reason is because the recorder refuses to record if you don't have a music CD (they go by various names but music CD seems common), and music CDs are marked as music CDs in the unmodifiable (by the consumer) ATIP as explained in some of the earlier links for example [28] [29]. The political reason of course as I mentioned is (partially? see below) because of the law in the US which requires royalties for such media. Sure you can hack the firmware (which would very likely violate the DMCA in the US) but that doesn't help the average user (in any case, it appears some of them don't have software updateable firmware, see below). There are also some other solutions which work with certain recorders, for example in some of them if you put in a blank music CD, and then take it out and put in a normal CD-R at the right time it will work, although I believe that was only with early models.

You are partially right about the SCMS. The SCMS flag is stored on the media (so a device reading it knows whether it is allows unlimited copies, one copy or the content is already a copy of a copy which means all further copies are disallowed), I was thinking music CDs have a special location to store this but now I recall it's stored on all audio CDs at a per track level (and you can choose what you want to set it to with good mastering or burning software, some set it to copy copy of copy always which annoys those who own the copyright and want to allow unlimited copies). The SCMS is also transmitted over digital channels of course.

P.S. I would emphasise again that I'm not sure how common this is in countries that don't require it. And in the US professional recorders don't have the requirement and I don't know how professional recorders are defined or if there has ever been a court case against a manufacturer for selling cheap professional recorders that are easily available to the consumer. My impression is that the mainstream manufacturers have generally been fairly cooperative with the music studios and so have implemented it worldwide even if they don't have to legally (while the music CD requirement didn't help, it's not as if these devices were ever going to be very popular and the manufacturers probably realised that it didn't really matter much), but I'm not sure. Indeed perhaps the fact they could advertise people could legally (in some countries) record copy protected music with these devices helped their sales, who knows. However it's definitely not a myth as people like Bubba above can confirm.

P.P.S. I came across this link which mentions the availability of hacked firmware which hopefully puts any doubts to rest and this link which confirms the recorders in Australia had this requirement too. The last one incidentally links to this link, which if you see the end and ignore everything else provides some more details on the agreement resulting in the current state of affairs. Even if you don't trust that last site given the nonsense they have, it'll probably be enough to research this more if you're interested.

Nil Einne (talk) 17:31, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I can confirm it - I even checked it again yesterday to be sure. I put a regular blank CD into the recorder and it reads the TOC. I press the record button and it displays "data" and doesn't start recording. I put in a blank music CD and it works. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 18:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Browsing Wikipedia on a PSP-2003

When I occasionally browse wikipedia on my PSP when I'm away from my computer, I can only type so much before the little triangle to the right of my cursor prevents me from typing any more. Why is this? It's fairly annoying, as I can't edit text longer than a few hundred words or so. Maybe I should stick to my computer, although my PSP is pretty handy for just viewing articles. Chevymontecarlo (talk) 10:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Chevymontecarlo, It's only been a day but if you fail to get an answer to this question, I would try again at the Computers and Technology reference desk. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

OK. I was thinking about that myself. Chevymontecarlo (talk) 16:57, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

why do so many more female infants than male infants die in China?

In almost all other countries, it's the opposite. More male infants die than female infants. Here are some CIA Factbook figures.

  American:
   male: 6.94 deaths/1,000 live births
   female: 5.55 deaths/1,000 live births
 
  Taiwanese rates:
   male: 5.64 deaths/1,000 live births
   female: 5.04 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)

  The Pakistani rates are almost even:
  male: 65.24 deaths/1,000 live births
  female: 65.05 deaths/1,000 live births (2009 est.)

  China stands out:
   male: 18.87 deaths/1,000 live births
   female: 21.77 deaths/1,000 live births

What's going on?

12thdegree (talk) 11:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

One child policy#Side effects on female population perhaps? Mitch Ames (talk) 12:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Considering that Taiwan is 5.64/5.04 = 1.119; US (I presume) is 6.94/5.55 = 1.250; Pakistan is 65.24/65.05 = 1.003; China is 0.8668; I would say both Pakistan and China seem fairly different from the two fairly developed countries. China to a greater extreme of course. Looking at more examples:

Hidden so I don't affect the readibility of the RD too much

India (2009 est.) [30] male: 49.33 deaths/1,000 live births female: 52.4 deaths/1,000 live births 0.941 Bangladesh (2009 est.) [31] male: 66.12 deaths/1,000 live births female: 51.64 deaths/1,000 live births 1.280 Thailand (2009 est.) [32] male: 18.48 deaths/1,000 live births female: 16.43 deaths/1,000 live births 1.125 Vietnam (2009 est.) [33] male: 22.64 deaths/1,000 live births female: 21.84 deaths/1,000 live births 1.037 Laos (2009 est.) [34] male: 86.97 deaths/1,000 live births female: 68.11 deaths/1,000 live births 1.277 Nigeria (2009 est.) [35] male: 100.38 deaths/1,000 live births female: 87.97 deaths/1,000 live births 1.141 South Africa (2009 est.) [36] male: 48.66 deaths/1,000 live births female: 40.1 deaths/1,000 live births 1.213 Brazil (2009 est.) [37] male: 26.16 deaths/1,000 live births female: 18.83 deaths/1,000 live births 1.389 Haiti (2009 est.) [38] male: 66.18 deaths/1,000 live births female: 53.01 deaths/1,000 live births 1.248 Samoa (2009 est.) [39] male: 28.61 deaths/1,000 live births female: 19.6 deaths/1,000 live births 1.460

You may (emphasis on the may) be seeing a strong cultural preference for male children playing out in India and China to a greater extreme given the one child policy, but also perhaps Vietnam and Pakistan. Surprisingly (to me anyway) there's little sign of this in Bangladesh. This ref documents a difference in the chance of a parent in Bangladesh seeking medical aide for a child (not infant) [40].

In any case the variation is high enough it's rather difficult to draw any real conclusion and many countries have some preference for male children including the US and Canada [41] which could be confounding your results. There would probably of course be genetic and dietary factors at play as well.

P.S. I was thinking of this earlier but forgot and it occured to me again when writing the below, it's possible one of the reasons for Bangladesh lack of an obvious skew is because sex selective abortion is more common, although that doesn't really explain the (1987 admitedly) ref.

Nil Einne (talk) 16:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It seems unlikely that ~15% of female baby deaths are due to their parents killing them because they wanted a boy. One in 300 families are prepared to do that? It's not enough that 1 in 300 people would do it - because (presumably) both mother and father would have to at least acquiesce - which means that maybe one in 15 people would stand back and let their partner do that? That's a VERY big number. SteveBaker (talk) 16:43, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to presume active killing is the primary factor. Difference in the treatment and attention (time etc) given to the infant including in the likelihood of parents seeking medical attention (as documented in Bangladesh for children), the food or formula given, the likeliness of noticing problems (if you pay less attention to your infant you're less likely to notice or be aware of differences in their behaviour), the amount of money the parent is willing to pay for infant could be big factors. It may not even be a concious thing in many cases. And it doesn't have to even be both parents unless the other parent compensates. And if prenatal sex testing is involved (and the parents don't practice sex-selective abortion) then this could even begin before birth.

These factors could of course even play on a communial basis including medical staff etc (again doesn't have to be concious) although of course they could compensate or respond in the reverse (whether because they are ware and are making an active effort or simply because they've noticed girls are far more more likely to have serious problems then boys when they come to them).

Or to put it a different way, if the parents and many other people in the community care more about male children then female children, it isn't that surprising if the boys are less likely to die (relatively speaking) then girls.

P.S. In addition reading infant moralityinfant mortality made me realise something I didn't yet consider, if the parents decide to abandon the child, they may not be intentional trying to kill it, but it's obviously going to be more likely to die.

Nil Einne (talk) 16:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Surely if they are selectively aborting before birth then there would be more boys than girls born - and that would suggest more boy deaths per 1000 than girl deaths? SteveBaker (talk) 19:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Er, infant mortality might be more helpful, in conjunction with parental morality. Also see infanticide and female infanticide. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:06, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

That's interesting -- female infanticide redirects to sex-selective abortion. But the additional factor I was trying to remember is well-covered in Missing women of Asia. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Steve I was wondering how this confusion arose since it seemed one you were unlikely to make. But I realised no one ever posted the overall statistics. For example, the overall statistics for India are 50.78 deaths/1,000 live births. Compare that 49.33 deaths/1,000 live births, female: 52.4 deaths/1,000 live births I have for India above and perhaps you'll have clarity.

If not, I'm pretty sure the number of deaths per live births is the number of deaths per live births of that sex (it doesn't make any sense otherwise, the numbers of deaths per live births would only be ~half for a sex). In other words, it doesn't matter how many are born. If 1000 boys are born for every 500 girls you'll double the number of girls for your statistics for deaths per live births for girls (it will make a difference to the overall statistics obviously). If there's no bias in the selection of which girls are aborted, then this doesn't affect the chance of the infants dying (although things like the mother's nutrition etc may).

If this is still confusing think about if carefully. If everything else is equal (in reality there are genetic factors which increase the mortality of male infants I believe) then if 100 die per 1000 male live births, you'd expect 50 to die per 500 female live births and you still get 100 deaths/1000 female live births. If you take the overall statistics in such a case, per 1000 live births you get ~67 male deaths per 1000 live births and ~33 female deaths (total 100) per 1000 live births and have ~667 males and ~333 females live births for every 1000. (Yes I've ignored those who are neither male nor female.)

BB, er yes thanks. I noticed the redlink but unfortunately didn't pay much attention to it.

P.S. You should be able to get statistics on boys:girls at birth which will help complete the picture. Also I realise I forgot to mention this at the beginning, remember the CIA world fact book figures are estimates and the reliability would almost definitely vary from country to country

Nil Einne (talk) 15:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Nil Einne is correct about the stats; they are expressed per 1000 live births, and if relevant, separated by sex. Factors which may add to the death burden include the early weaning of girls, to enable the mother to try for another pregnancy. Infant formula diluted with unclean water, or even over-diluted with clean water, is more likely to make the baby ill. BrainyBabe (talk) 17:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Orkut's religion

What is Orkut Buykkokten's religion??

Do you mean Orkut Büyükkökten? His Wikipedia article does not give any information about his religious beliefs. I have 'Googled' it but have not found any information in that area. —220.101.28.25 (talk) 13:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

There is a crazy amount of misinformation about this guy on the web - lots of sites report this long list of how much money he makes ("He get paid $200 every time someone uploads a picture to the Orkut website"...so who exactly is paying this and why would they do that?!?!). If I found a place where his religion was mentioned, I'd be reluctant to believe it without some pretty solid evidence. SteveBaker (talk) 16:56, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Orkut, the social web-side created by Orkut Büyükkökten is certainly a huge success, but not from a commercial perspective. It generates some income throught the ads served on the site. However, even for Google, $200 for each picture is way too much, considering the millions of users and pictures on the site.--Quest09 (talk) 18:24, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Note that Orkut bey is Turkish, Turkey's population is over 95% Muslim*, and he comes from Konya, one of the most Islamic cities in Turkey (it is the site of a major shrine). There is a very strong likelihood that he is of Muslim background, but it's not a certainty, and he may not be a practicing Muslim. *That figure depends on whether one counts the Alevi minority as Muslims or not, an issue that's quite controversial. --Xuxl (talk) 19:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

pdf file

How can I convert a file to a pdf file ? I have one folder consists of picture of book's page , I want to convert this file to a pdf file .Supriyochowdhury (talk) 15:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The solution I use is "CutePDF Writer", which is a free printer driver. After you install it, all of your applications will be able to "print" to a PDF file. Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:38, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it largely depends what apps you have available to you. These days many of them have a built-in PDF "export" or "save as" option in the file menu.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:26, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I suggest reposting this question on the Computing desk, and telling them what applications you have available to open the file in, if you don't find the answer yourself in the way Shantavira suggests. --Anonymous, 06:30 UTC, February 8, 2010.

Translation request

I am thinking of translating Gospel of Thomas into Malayalam, my mother tongue and the language of Saint Thomas Christians of Malabar (now known as Kerala). I am a Mar Thoma Nasrani (Saint Thomas Christian) and belongs to Mar Thoma Church. This gospel is of particular importance for us because before the Bible was translated from Aramaic, into Malayalam we were reading from a book that was said to have been written in Aramaic and given to us by Saint Thomas the Apostle. Further study may help me to trace whether it was this Gospel of Thomas that was taken by Pantœnus from India to Alexandria around AD 190. I need to know whether I need any permission to translate this and publish it. Can someone help me?Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

See the article Gospel of Thomas which notes that the manuscript found at Nag Hammadi was first published in a photographic edition in 1956. The manuscript itself is held in a museum in Cairo, Egypt. You are certainly free to translate the gospel for private study. We cannot give you legal advice about publishing copyright. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

It might also be helpful to your further study to know that the Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Biblical Aramaic and the New Testament in Greek. It is possible that some of the New Testament was based on older Aramaic texts, but the Bible you read was translated from Hebrew and Greek, or possibly Latin. The Gospel of Thomas is written in Coptic. Depending on which languages you read, this might affect your willingness to attempt a translation. 86.179.145.61 (talk) 23:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Our article on Mar Thoma says "Pantaenus from Alexandria - In the second century AD, Pantaenus the Philosopher visited India and found that there were many evangelists in India. They had a copy of the Gospel according to Matthew in Hebrew." Is this the book you are talking about? Rmhermen (talk) 02:05, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The OP is obviously not talking about Mathew's gospel which is a part of the Bible that has been translated already into virtually every language. In contrast the Gospel of Thomas is not in the Bible and was disparaged by Eusebius as a "fiction of heretics". The OP belongs to a church named after Thomas and names Thomas 4 times in posting so I suggest you believe the OP knows what the OP is talking about. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Eusebius was doubting Thomas. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:41, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Before being rude to Rmhermen, perhaps you should read the article they linked? Mar Thoma appears to be the church described by the OP. The OP asks about a legend that St Thomas brought them a Gospel before the whole Bible was translated, and wonders if this was the Gospel of Thomas. The article suggests that this Gospel brought by Thomas was likely a version of the Gospel of Matthew. 86.179.145.61 (talk) 13:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

On the copyright question, the original manuscript is at least 1600 years old and therefore not subject to copyright restrictions. However, it is written in Coptic and is locked away in a museum in Egypt, which might not give you access to the manuscript , particularly if you intend to translate it for publication, without an agreement for some compensation. Obviously, you would need a strong knowledge of the Coptic language to translate this manuscript. Alternatively, you could base your translation on the English translation published in 1977, but that edition is very much subject to copyright protection, and that protection extends to translations. In that case, you would need to obtain the permission of the 1977 publisher or its successor to publish a translation based on that edition. Marco polo (talk) 02:25, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Letters

How should I go about writing a formal letter to someone at a company I have never written to before and know none at?

148.197.114.158 (talk) 17:29, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Google is great for this kind of thing, and there are dozens of sites out there that can help you. A couple of minutes searching found This, which from the looks of it could be helpful. I don't think they'd be any articles on Wikipedia to help you, so try Googling. Chevymontecarlo (talk) 17:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

The usual convention is to address the letter to a corporate officer who is relevant to the topic of the letter. e.g. "Dear Ms. Jane Doe, Vice President of Consumer Relations:" The officer might not be the one to actually read the letter, but that will get it to their office. If you can't find an actual name, addressing it to the position itself can work, e.g. "Dear President of Yoyodyne Systems:" As a last resort, you can always try the "Dear Sir or Madam:" or "To whom it may concern:" route, although that may imply you do not care about the issue enough to think about who to contact. If you don't have a mailing address for a specific person, try addressing it to the central corporate office. As for the body of the letter, I'd recommend keeping it polite and direct. If you have a specific action you wish for them to take (provide you with information, give you a refund, etc.) be sure to state it explicitly (but politely) in the conclusion section of the letter - the person reading the letter will likely be busy, and put your letter at the bottom of their priority list. Make it as simple as possible for them to satisfy your desires. And finally, don't be too disappointed if you never hear back from them. Some companies just aren't all that responsive when it comes to letters. -- 174.21.224.109 (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, "Dear Ms. Jane Doe, Vice President of Consumer Relations:" is not an acceptable form of salutation. In the first place, you don't include the addressee's first name. It's "Dear Ms Doe". In the second place, you wouldn't include their job title in the salutation either. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Writing a business letter in the UK has certain formal conventions. If you don't know the person's name, then you start the letter "Dear Sir". If you know you are writing to a woman, start it "Dear Madam". "Dear Sir/Madam" will probably get your letter filed in the bin! If you start the letter with this saluation, you must end it with "Yours faithfully". If you know the name of the person, then start with "Dear Mr Doe" and end it with "Yours sincerely". These are very strong conventions in the UK and it is unwise to go against them if you want to appear professional. --TammyMoet (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC).

Again, I must beg to differ. There is nothing wrong with "Dear Sir/Madam" if you don't know the addressee's gender. "Dear Sir" is not a catch-all. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I know that was the case many years ago, but even in the early 80s when I was training to be a secretary, "Dear Sir/Madam" was frowned upon as it gave the impression of idleness. As a businesswoman myself today, if I received such a letter it would definitely go straight in the bin. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't really follow. Why would putting "Dear Sir/Madam" give an impression of idleness? Because you haven't bothered to find out the gender of the person you're writing to? If so, that's not really a valid objection as it's more often than not impossible to find that information. The point is that I would never put "Dear Sir" if I'm writing to, say, the director of human resources at an organization and I don't know what gender that person is. To put "Dear Sir" implies that I'm assuming the director is a man, which is an offensive assumption to make. I'm surprised that you, as a woman, need me to point that out. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

When I trained as a secretary, I had a long discussion with the tutor about this, me being a feminist and all that. My POV was that I really don't mind being addressed as a man, even better if as a woman, but as a generic person (sir/madam) - well that is the height of rudeness! My tutor's POV was that if you can't even be bothered to telephone the organisation and find out who you should be writing to, then you are plain lazy and using "Dear Sir/Madam" is a sure indicator of that. In business these days it's an indicator of spam. I once worked for a feminist organisation whose policy was to call everyone "madam". --TammyMoet (talk) 19:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Well I'm a man, so forgive me for speaking out of turn, but it's a strange kind of feminist who doesn't mind being addressed as a man, especially when addressing her as such relies on blatantly patriarchal assumptions about the relative positions of men and women in the workforce. "Dear Sir/Madam" is not rude at all, it's a safe and neutral way to address someone whose gender sex you don't know. As for telephoning them to find out, that might have been possible once upon a time but it sure as heck isn't anymore. Many large organizations don't even put their phone numbers on their websites, because they don't want you to call them at all. And even if you can find a number for them, the idea of ringing them up and asking for the name of the director of HR, for example, is preposterous. They don't state the names of individual directors on their websites, they just want to present a blank corporate face to the world, so the odds of getting them to divulge the name of a senior executive to a random caller is a non-starter I'm afraid. It's also pointless, since "Dear Sir/Madam" is perfectly acceptable (and not an indicator of spam at all!). --Richardrj ^{talk email} 23:05, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I've never got why i'm supposed to call people dear when we've never even met, but I assume there is a good reason. Would I absolutely have to include my address at the top, since I already have it within the letter itself, and without that the final paragraph is rather blunt. And surely they already know their own address? 148.197.114.158 (talk) 14:30, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there is a good reason – convention. As for the addresses, yes, you need both – your own at the top right of the letter, and theirs underneath it on the left hand side, before the salutation. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:35, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

About 15 years ago it became good practice, if there is no letterhead at the top of the letter, to put your address at the top of the letter on the left hand side, then the date, then the recipients' address. This is known as "fully blocked" style. It's also the modern convention to use "open" punctuation, i.e. no commas at the end of the line, or after "Dear Sir" or "Yours faithfully" (UK convention) --TammyMoet (talk) 19:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

With respect, that is not good practice at all. The sender's address goes at the top right, the date below that, and the addressee's address below that at the left margin. The link given in the first response above sets out the standard format. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 23:05, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Richard, you are aware, aren't you, that whether to address someone as 'Madam' as opposed to 'Sir' is about knowing what sex they are. It's not about their gender. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

When in doubt, let the Beatles be your guide, as with the beginning of this song: "Dear Sir or Madam / Will you read my book? / It took me years to write / Will you take a look? ..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Considering their education(mostly dropped out of school or bunked off playing in bands),no,I wouldn't use them as an example.hotclaws 14:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

blood donation

Resolved

Do you get paid to donate blood in the UK? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.89.90 (talk) 23:49, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

No. If you're lucky you might get a cup of tea. There is an explanation of what happens here.Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Aww damn. Thank you for the answer.

In Scotland you get Tunnocks Teacakes, but in England it's only dismal little British Rail biscuits. 87.112.154.130 (talk) 00:14, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

In the U.S., they are eager to pump you full of sugar. Its usually sugary cookies and fruit juice. And if you pass out you may be served undiluted soda syrup. (I passed out too many times, they won't take mine anymore.) Rmhermen (talk) 01:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Too bad, I love donating blood. Free Pepsi, a bottle of water, some chocolate chip cookies, and a free shirt. What could possibly beat that? Why getting paid of course! The Reader who Writes (talk) 03:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

You get free crisps too in London. Plus a lapel badge for 10 (bronze) 25 (silver) and 50 (gold)[42] donations. When I got my gold badge they also gave me a rather nice pen in a presentation box. I understand that payment for blood donations is a good incentive for people to fib about their health record[43]. This led to quite a lot of people in the UK being infected with HIV from US blood imported before adequate testing was in place[44]. Alansplodge (talk) 09:45, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I got Eccles cakes in Manchester, but only bourbon biscuits in Oxfordshire. Maybe donors in Oxfordshire are expected to have more moderate cake requirements? 86.179.145.61 (talk) 13:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Is this the famous NHS Postcode Lottery? Alansplodge (talk) 21:02, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

We (South Wales) get Penguin buscuits or those individually wrapped buscuits you get in posh hotels... That and orange squash or hot drinks... But the main attraction to donating is of course the warm fuzzy feeling Mitch mentioned... Gazhiley (talk) 10:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course the main reward for donating blood is a warm fuzzy. Our article tells us that the World Health Organization would rather all donations were unpaid. This reference explains why. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

In Ireland you (used to?) get a glass of Guinness- It's full of iron supposedly. I kid you not. 212.129.73.65 (talk) 20:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Their website only says "you will be offered a drink"[45]. I did have a pint straight after donating once on Christmas Eve (best bitter probably). I got very merry but I had the mother of all hangovers a few hours later. Alansplodge (talk) 21:08, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

February 8

Avatar

Is Sam Worthington really paraplegic? His legs look convincing in the movie... 117.194.230.236 (talk) 06:21, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

No, he can walk. See Wikipedai article Sam Worthington. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 06:57, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

CGI -> http://www.ugo.com/movies/best-worst-special-effects-in-avatar -- 87.112.154.130 (talk) 13:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Who Had the Highest Power Level?

In the animated series, Dragon Ball (including the original, Z and GT), which character had the highest power level? Acceptable (talk) 07:06, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Most people's power level's aren't over 9,000. Shadowjams (talk) 10:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

"The highest power level ever officially stated was from the Daizenshuu guides, in which Super Saiyan Goku had a power level of 150,000,000 while battling Frieza on Planet Namek." [46]. Quickly scanning [47] suggests Frieza at "Over 1,000,000" is the highest level in the anime series. FiggyBee (talk) 11:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

yes, but is that green power? what kind of carbon footprint does it make? --Ludwigs2 23:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Boooooooooo... Booooooooooooooo... Get off the staaaaaaaaage... 130.126.63.29 (talk) 04:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Another question about female infant deaths in China

If the number is 21 deaths out of 1000 and should be 16-17 deaths out of 1000 if there were no bias against female infants, then in terms of scale, the tragedy is one of the largest. Why is this not talked about more? Or are there reasons other than bias? 12thdegree (talk) 07:47, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

From the lede of Missing women of Asia (the article referred to above):

The phenomenon of the missing women of Asia is a shortfall in the number of women in Asia relative to the number that would be expected if there was no sex-selective abortion or female infanticide or if the newborn of both sexes received similar levels of health care and nutrition.

The phenomenon was first noted by the Indian Nobel Prize–winning economist Amartya Sen in an essay in The New York Review of Books in 1990, and expanded upon in his subsequent academic work. Sen originally estimated that more than a 100 million women were "missing" (in the sense that their potential existence had been eliminated either through sex selective abortion, infanticide or inadequate nutrition during infancy).

Research conducted by Monica Das Gupta and others has identified a number of societal factors responsible for the elimination of females phenomenon.

The original articles by Das Gupta and Sen may provide more reasons for this tragedy, but briefly, as in Das Gupta's title, "son preference". A longer answer is patriarchy. Many peasant economies throughout the world practice patrilocality, so a girl who marries leaves her birth family and their subsistence farm, and her economic input as an adult goes instead to the farm or business of her husband's family. In addition, her parents may have to pay a dowry to marry her off, so the birth of a daughter represents a sink of that family's money and energy, a losing investment, in crude terms. They are better off investing in their sons, who will by social custom inherit the land (patrilineality) and thus the obligation to care for their aging parents. (Those societies that practice the reverse, a bride price, protect their daughters as the original cash cows.) BrainyBabe (talk) 08:36, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I see there is some attention but to me it seems like an issue that is rarely brought up. Also China is a bride price society. 12thdegree (talk) 10:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Post removed from thread ([48]).

Removed my response since it no longer applies. 12thdegree (talk) 11:00, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It is talked about. You may not have noticed. As recently as a couple weeks ago, the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences issued a study about the 24 million excess men which received wide media coverage.[49] Rmhermen (talk) 14:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The truth is that this is going to be a really difficult question to get a factual answer to. The Chinese government doesn't want investigations done, and it's really hard to do any kind of study without widespread access to the people, so a definitive answer to "are there reasons other than bias" is going to be pretty much impossible. As for "why is this not talked about more", we can only speculate. If asked to speculate I might suggest a) it's hard to really commit to a cause that you can do nothing about b) there are actually several tragedies on similar or bigger scale that we could do something about, like African AIDS, child malnourishment in Africa, Third World deaths due to easily preventable diseases (and unclean water) c) human beings have a remarkable capacity to ignore tragedies that don't affect them - especially slow and undramatic ones. But as I say, that's just speculation. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

(ec)I don't see your statement above as soapboxing. Inasmuch as these phantom girls have not-existed by human decisions, as opposed to biological variation or statistical fluke, I think reasonable people will have no problem in describing this as a tragedy. What is perhaps more interesting in the context of a reference desk is that the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences has called attention to this as a "serious demographic problem", according to this BBC story last month:

More than 24 million Chinese men of marrying age could find themselves without spouses by 2020.<...>The gender imbalance among newborns is the most serious demographic problem for the country's population of 1.3 billion. <...>It cites sex-specific abortions as a major factor, due to China's traditional bias towards male children. The academy says gender selection abortions are "extremely common".

(Post edit conflict) The CASS is a prestigious, state-affiliated think tank, so it is not entirely true to assert that "the Chinese government does not want investigations done": some parts of it clearly do. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

In the same vein as DJ's point, while the ~20 deaths per live births for girls in China may seem a big tragedy to the OP, others may consider the ~90 deaths per live birth overall in Nigeria et al a big tragedy as well, some may consider it a bigger one. In terms of numbers, the ~50 deaths per live births overall in India would be a larger number of infants who some may feel don't have to die, particularly given the higher fertility rate (~1.8 cf ~2.7). In other words, how big a tragedy this is clearly relative and not something the RD can answer and the question of whether it receives enough attention considering the extent of the tragedy ditto.

Also I agree with BB that there are clearly people affliated with the Chinese government who do care (although their concern may more often be the societal effects of a gender imbalance and include all practices that lead to the imbalance not just infant mortality) and with Rmhermen that the issue clearly does receive attention in the media.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:52, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

We are not being asked to vote for the biggest tragedy of all time; it isn't a competition. There seem to be two questions: how bad is the situation, and why is the amount of media coverage not commensurate with its scale? The former is more factual and the latter interpretive.

The OP used the phrase "one of the largest" [tragedies]. If we are to go by absolute numbers of human deaths, then yes, this would on the face of it seem to be one of the biggest of our time. Malaria, for example, kills one to three million people a year, mostly African children, and is largely preventable. If we are to go by relative numbers, then we have to decide what we are comparing: boys and girls in China, girls in China and girls in India, or babies of both sexes in China and those in Nigeria? (By the way, infant mortality is expressed as deaths per 1000 births.)

The reference desks have a respectable history of number-crunching, and of course researching to find the data in the first place. DJ is correct that these are difficult questions to answer, but not that they can only be attempted with access to people: what is needed is access to the information, e.g. Chinese census figures, or whatever the CASS has drawn from, which may or may not be public to some degree.

As for the amount of airplay these problems get, I'm with DJ on this. For purposes of comparison, see Missing white woman syndrome and Media bias. Decisions made at a family level rarely make headlines on other continents. BrainyBabe (talk) 17:39, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

In terms of number crunching, World population says there's currently about 134 million births per year. List of countries by infant mortality rate gives a figure of 42.09 for the world's infant mortality from the CIA world fact book. Compare that to a rate for a developed country, say 5 and you have 37.09 extra deaths/1000 births per year or 4,970,060 per year. Not as high as I expected I admit, but I can easily see that working up to well over 100 million over the past 30 years. For example a crude test of multipling it by 30 gives 149 million. This is obviously rather crude since the number of births varied up and down and the infant mortality has varied I presume primarily down. But it may not be far from the truth

Of course if you looked at the list you probably noticed the UN Populations Division gives a different figure (49.4) and in particular gives 73.7 for the under 5 mortality. A developed country rate isn't much worse then the infant mortality so let's take 7 as our ideal target for under 5s, and we end up with 66.7 extra deaths/1000 births instead or 8,937,800 per year. 268 million from my crude estimate over 30 years. Of course this figure will include some of those missing 100 million.

Achieving a world average infant mortality akin to the developed world may seem an unrealistic goal in the short term, but it does illustrate why 100 million missing girls is clearly not the only problems many may seem worth tackling even from a pure numbers standpoint.

Nil Einne (talk) 20:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

One thing that isn't clear to me, am I right this 100 million missing girls includes all ages? If so an important point that I haven't seen mentioned yet is a contributing factor (even in China to a limited extent) and particularly in the more developed parts of Asia likely isn't only involving deaths but lifes. If one or both parents want a son and they only have daughters, there's a fair chance, depending on their circumstances they'll keep having children until they get one or decide they can't support any more children. If they already have a son/s but no daughters, they're only going to keep trying if they want more children.

While this won't create an extreme bias or the 100 million, it can definitely create some bias. (More unfortunately and back to the issue of deaths, if they have more children then they can really support then their more likely to have their children die, and of course back to the vein of the earlier question they may prioritise the son/s over the daughter/s when it comes down to it.)

There may already be some estimates of how big a difference that makes but it's easy to imagine a very simple model you can test. For example, if all parents stop having children after two if they have at least one son (I said very simple), 50% of those with 2 daughters only will have another child, 25% with 3 daughters only will have another child, and 10% with 4 daughters only will have another child.

Nil Einne (talk) 20:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Allegedly that does not have any effect at all on gender balance, but I'm not quite sure so I've posted on the mathematics desk for someone to confirm it. Stay tuned! --antilived^{T | C | G} 09:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

<unindent>But what seems different about the tragedy of bias mortality is that it's the result of many deliberate decisions. Millions of malaria deaths are terrible but do not have disturbing effect of so many ordinary people doing unthinkable things. That's the primary reason I feel it's odd this isn't a huge attention getting issue. 12thdegree (talk) 05:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

12thdegree, you make the assumption that an unborn child is a tragedy, which is a value judgment that may not be shared by the parents (among others). Second, you assume that this subject is not being discussed sufficiently, which is a value judgment which may not be shared by those who know something about the subject. Third, you make the statement “China is a bride price society,” without any supporting evidence. Fourth, you postulate that because there is human decision-making involved, somehow the “tragedy” is greater than if the cause was biological variation or statistical fluke, which may not be shared by those who believe in the individual’s right to choose what to do with his or her own body. Finally, underlying the entire discussion is a touching faith in Chinese statistics that is simply not borne out by experience. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

DOR, this discussion has nothing to do with unborn fetuses. You should read the discussion more closely. This is about the mortality rate of female infants before the age of one. Yes I assume the tragedy is greater if a parent waits longer to take a sick one year old to a hospital in the hope that she will die and give way to a male. This is also criminal, showing a universal repugnance towards such behavior.

China is a bride price society. This is common knowledge. If you wish to make a contrary statement, don't be so coy. Say what you want to say outright. If you are actually unaware China is a bride price society, then read a little before commenting. 12thdegree (talk) 10:10, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Why do you keep harping on this point? As pointed out by BrainyBabe, a bride price would make girls more attractive to parents, not less, and as our article says (and many more references I found attest) bride prices in modern China are mostly symbolic, with the groom's family giving gifts as part of the betrothal, and the bride's family giving gifts in return as part of the wedding. In a traditional western wedding, the bride's family pays for everything, often causing considerable financial strain, but it's interesting that we (for a given value of "we") don't denigrate that custom as "husband price"... FiggyBee (talk) 12:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

12thdegree, I can understand your confusion, as our bride price article starts with ancient practice, and then mixes China -- clearly stated as traditional, rather than current practice -- in with examples that might be current. And, the subject is one I'm familiar with. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

A Wall Street Journal article says that it's a continued custom. [50] 12thdegree (talk) 11:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

starvation and fat reserves

If two people of the same weight/mass and background etc are both set to starve, man A got fat by eating burgers and chocolates while Man B got fat from overeating vegitables and healthy things. Would the healthy man live longer as his fat reserves are made from healthier origins? If not, why not, and any other related info would be of help. Just curious, Thanks.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk • contribs) 10:57, 8 February 2010

Well, fat is fat - but the other consequences of eating so much might make a difference. If you got fat from eating burgers and chocolates, you might expect some serious cholestorol issues and perhaps dental problems. But the guy who ate only vegetables would have had to have eaten a collossal volume of the stuff in order to get that fat. It's hard to say who would be worse off - but whichever it is, I don't think it could be due to differences in the composition of the fat they laid down in the process. SteveBaker (talk) 13:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The unhealthy diet may've contributed to increased insulin resistance which would influence fat loss. But yes, stored calories are stored calories. So if you had identical twins with the exact same blood sugar levels, body fat percentages, etc and the only difference is the source of the extra calories, you should expect the weight loss to be very similar. In practice, you do not get these sorts of perfect matches.--droptone (talk) 14:54, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Pesticides and other toxic substances bioaccumulate, i.e. creatures higher up the food chain will store more of them in their body fat. This is an issue particularly for the Inuit, whose traditional diet is predominantly meat. Studies are looking at the effects of polychlorinated biphenyls and persistent organic pollutants in the body; the breast milk of Inuit mothers is extraordinarily high in synthetic nasties. (See Silent Snow: The Slow Poisoning of the Arctic by Marla Cone, Grove Press.)It would be interesting to compare the composition of an Inuk's body fat to that of, say, a vegan Indian (there are millions of devout Hindus), or better yet, someone who lives beyond the reach of agrochemicals and air-borne pollution, such as one of the uncontacted people of the deep forests, much romanticised as the noble savage. I can only speculate as to whether these individuals would suffer different physical effects from a crash diet such as the OP proposes, but I would love to read any research on the subject. BrainyBabe (talk) 15:39, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

About U.S.

please let me know about Seattle(U.S) city because i am going to visit in near future?

thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.233.77 (talk) 12:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Read Seattle, also have a look at Seattle's entry on Wikitravel. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:57, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

If you are headed there very soon (say for the nearby Winter Olympics), you may want to note the climate section. And be sure to eat the salmon. Rmhermen (talk) 14:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Watch out for the trolls. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Poland

I am looking for map and/or articles on the following: I would like to see a map of the population of Poland and its ethnic make up prior to 1939 and then in say 1946. This would be really interesting for me thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 14:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Historical demography of Poland and Expulsion of Germans after World War II have the raw numbers but are short on maps. Rmhermen (talk) 14:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm having a weirdly difficult time finding a post-war map, but here is one of ethnicity as determined by language, dating from 1931. - Fullobeans (talk) 05:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Is 'reckon' the right word?

I'm currently tryng to put together a short fanfic. In it, one character is unsure about joining his buddies in a hot tub. The reason that is, because he remembers a double rescue in one day. The second of it was he and his buddies tried to help a passed out man in a hot tub. When they pulled the victim out, it was too late. In the same fanfic, another character is encouraged by his buddies to sing barbershop music with them. Soon, the first character joins the second character and their buddies in the hot tub and sing barbershop music. I don't know if 'reckon' is the right word to use in the title.24.90.204.234 (talk) 15:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but your question is not clear. In order to give a view on whether or not "reckon" is the right word in the title, we'd need to know the title – which, as far as I can see, you don't give. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:06, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

(e/c; a guess on what the IP is trying to say) "Reckon" is not usually to mean "remember", rather as a synonym for "I count" or "I think". Correct usage would be "I reckon there are three hundred dogs on Facebook," or "I reckon Bob would be stupid enough to do that again." It's sort of colloquial, anyway, and I would leave it out of any serious writing. Xenon54 / talk / 15:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

There was a thread about the use of "reckon" not long ago[51] Alansplodge (talk) 17:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

If you're willing to utilise something of a neologism, you might use "Re-ken", utilising the Northern English dialect/Scots word "ken" meaning "to know" (as in "D'ye ken John Peel", for example). (The corresponding Scots word for "remember" is "mind".) 87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:17, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I reckons we dasn't judge until we can do a recon on the title, whereupon there will be a reckoning. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Sending Gift Parcels from UK to Cuba.

I am just back from a fabulous holiday to Havana and Cayo Coco. We had the advantage of being advised to take with us lots of small and inexpensive gifts to hand out to the lovely Cuban folk, such as pens, pencils, toiletries, fragrances and soap, all of which were greatly appreciated. But we met one young guy who was a member of the entertainments crew in our last hotel who wanted to learn to speak English with a British/English accent as his teacher of English was a heavily accented Spanish/Cuban teacher which made it difficult for him to be understood by the many British tourists he meets. So I promised to send him a British English/Spanish audio course and now I am home, I have no idea how to go about sending it as I understand that posting parcels to Cuba is at best erratic and unreliable and at worst a total waste of time and money. Any advice here would be welcome. Thanks. 92.30.44.160 (talk) 15:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Interaction between a local Cuban and tourists can be fraught with difficulties and it may have been unwise to make your promise. It sounds like you have the guy's name and address and don't want to risk causing trouble for him. You could ask someone going to Cuba to deliver the tape personally. I am sure English speaking radio stations such as BBC are receivable in Cuba on cheap short-wave radios. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:33, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

THanks for your response Cuddly, but I have made the promise and ultimately, I will deliver, even it it takes another trip to Cuba. So meanwhile, I fancy trying to send the package of 3 CD's plus a few hard copy pics by regular post. The worst that could happen, surely, is that they would either be lost, or opened and confiscated?????????92.30.41.154 (talk) 00:08, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

US Adoptions

I often see white couples adopting children of other races in the media. Have there been any documented cases where a black (or another race) couple adopting a white child(ren)? --Reticuli88 (talk) 16:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Obviously yes. If you're looking for black celebrities who've adopted white children, I don't really keep up with current pop culture so I don't know. I'd guess also yes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.89.90 (talk) 17:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

As 82 says, obviously yes. But [52] suggests unofficial discrimination is still a problem for African American parents wanting to adopt a non-African American child in the US and mentions it was only in 1994 that racial discrimination of adoptive families was officially banned. (It also mentions a documented case.) Interracial adoption also may be of interest and mentions in relation to the US "2% of women of other races adopt white children (estimates include foreign-born)". In fact from that and [53], it appears that white couple - African American child interracial or transracial adoptions in the US were fairly popular at a time but after this drew controversy in the 70s they died down, which isn't that surprising, and the law change was in response to that Nil Einne (talk) 21:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Nicole Richie was adopted by Lionel Richie, even though she isn't African-American. Woogee (talk) 19:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Scott Fujita was adopted by Japanese parents. And this might be a stretch, but Michael Jackson's children are possibly not really biologically his. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:10, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous bank accounts

Say you have no identity whatsoever, maybe you bumped your head and lost your memory etc etc and no one knows who your are. Are there banks that allow opening accounts that require no or very little identification? Obviously it'd be an extremely basic account, no overdraft or anything. Does something like this exist for homeless people or people in difficult situations where they don't have ID?

In the US, due to I think the Patriot Act, you need 2 forms of government issued ID to open any kind of account. Googlemeister (talk) 17:28, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have said in the original question, this is for UK banks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.89.90 (talk) 20:00, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Major High Street banks in the UK offer a "basic bank account" for people with poor credit history, which does not offer an overdraft facility but will permit deposits and withdrawals, usually a cash card, and sometimes a debit card or cheque book. The exact requirement for opening these accounts varies between banks, and some are less demanding than others, but due to the money laundering regulations some proof of your identity and your address will be required, so your hypothetical amnesiac would have problems until s/he had some official documentation. The Co-operative Bank has a "Cashminder" account which is said to handle difficulties over proving ID sympathetically in a Joseph Rowntree Foundation report here. The Post Office offers what is probably the most basic account you can get - benefits and state pensions can be paid into it by Government departments and withdrawn using a cash card, but you cannot pay a salary into it and it offers none of the other features of a current account. Since anyone in the situation you describe would probably end up being supported by the state, at least in the short term, that would probably be the account for them. In Scotland, "Grand Central Savings" is a project started by the Bank of Scotland and The Big Issue aimed specifically at providing banking for homeless people (see here). Interestingly, it is an extension of a Bank of Scotland initiative to accept Big Issue sellers' badges as sufficient ID to open a basic bank account. Karenjc 20:54, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's back up a bit. Never mind bank accounts, what really happens to someone who has lost their memory and whose identity can't be established? I'm guessing it's exceptionally rare, since you would have to have lost all your ID, have nobody from your previous life who was looking for you, and not show up in any fingerprint records. I'm also guessing that most cases of lost memory are accompanied by other symptoms of mental illness, so you would actually stay in hospital. Anyone ever heard of this happening? DJ Clayworth (talk) 02:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

There was that case of the guy who couldn't remember anything about himself. I don't remember the exact circumstances but the people in the hospital discovered he could play the piano rather well. That's all I can remember of the story though. I'll see if I can Google something up... He has an article here. Or at least he did. Dismas|^(talk) 05:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Oop, sorry. Apparently it was a hoax to some extent. The man that I was thinking of is Andreas Grassl. On a strange side note, if you type "piano playing man" into Google, the first page of hits is full of results that include the phrase "...with his penis". Dismas|^(talk) 05:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Typing piano man into Wikipedia's search box is much safer.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I didn't remember that he was called the piano man. I'll endeavor to in the future. Dismas|^(talk) 11:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Almost everyone has relatives and friends. Even if you cannot remember your name, I'm sure someone will show up soon enough to identify you. Of course, if you are deliberately withholding your identity due to a desire to disappear from your previous life, it might be possible to stay unidentified. Astronaut (talk) 04:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

... and if the banks suspect that you are deliberately withholding your identity then they will definitely not allow you to open an account. Dbfirs 10:53, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Homeless

Say you just decide to stop paying the bills, you loose your house and job etc etc and you are homeless. Does the UK government provide any support or shelter for people who have absolutely nothing, or are you simply left to starve in the street?

I believe you can apply for Jobseeker's Allowance. --Mark PEA (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Such a person would generally be eligible for Income Support and Housing Benefit. While such a person would be eligible for accomodation provided by a local authority or housing association, in practice both have insufficient accomodation, and usually only people with children are accomodated. Single and childless homeless people can sometimes find bedsits or B&Bs, but many resort to homeless hostels. Homeless people on the street are usually either those who voluntarily left such hostels (they're very far from nice places) or who have been ejected due to bad behaviour, substance use, or mental health issues. -- 87.112.154.130 (talk) 17:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Such person could apply to one of the governmental benefit programs, but not everyone in the UK is entitle to them. Alternatively they could try some charity like Caritas or Shelter. Normally, you are covered during an emergency situation, but charities are not able to deal with the chronic cases of poverty, drug abuse, alcoholism. --ProteanEd (talk) 18:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The article Homelessness contains links to the situations in various countries including England. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:31, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

It should be noted that the number of people sleeping rough in the UK is probably low but wildly unknown. Wikipedia claims on one page that the Dept of Local Communities in 2005 said there were 10,000 people, and in 2007 on another page that 500 people were. The latter is sourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prokhorovka (talk • contribs) 18:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Her Majesty's Government says 464 actually "sleeping rough" in 2008[54]. Alansplodge (talk) 20:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) .... Government departments have to be for something in modern new-speak, but perhaps the Department for Communities and Local Government distinguishes between "homeless people", which includes those whose home is unfit as well as those who don't have a legal right to occupy a home (including sqatters and those who are in B&B, hostels, shelters, caravans, houseboats etc.), totalling perhaps more than 200,000 [55], and those who are actually sleeping on the streets/doorways/parks etc, where recent initiatives by government and local authorities has reduced the number to 464 (claimed in the official count for England in 2009, more than a quarter of these being in the London Borough of Westminster). Dbfirs 21:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

[Unindent] In the UK, doing precisely what you suggest would probably leave you with the sole option of begging to survive. To be eligible for Jobseeker's allowance you have to show that you are looking for work and that you did not give up a previous job for no reason. You will not be eligible for any other benefit such as Income Support if you are a single person with no dependents. The local authority will probably view you as intentionally homeless and will not help you find somewhere to live. If you look for rented accommodation you would need to find a deposit and rent in advance, and if you have a history of rent arrears you will be unlikely to be able to borrow the money to do this. (Phil Holmes, but not signed in). --205.168.109.130 (talk) 21:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Unless the reason you dropped out and stopped caring about everything was because of mental health problems. If your doctor thinks that's what's going on, you might find yourself receiving sickness benefit and associated benefits. However, you would have to jump through all the hoops for it, which can take a shocking length of time when you are least able to absorb being out of pocket, and requiring you to chase things up when you're least able to cope with paperwork and other people. 86.177.123.1 (talk) 22:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Even if you left your job for no good reason, you may later become eligible for Jobseeker's allowance. It may be as much as 26 weeks later. [56] AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:38, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Durability of shoes - trainers vs "office" shoes

I'm aware that BOTH categories are fairly broad, but please stay with me. I've always been of the opinion that "smartish" shoes (as distinguished from "smarter" shoes), such as these are usually more durable than trainers for the purpose of walking on pavements. My recent experience seems to suggest otherwise. Can anyone shed any light on this, and perhaps where I can find more durable "smartish" shoes? Thanks.--Leon (talk) 19:47, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I always choose Clarks shoes for pavement and office walking but Moshulus for smart off-duty wear. Both brands stand up well to all weather walking and are quite smart and very comfortable. 92.30.44.160 (talk) 20:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Price and brand does tend to make a big difference in general. And I have to say I would have expected what you experienced, i.e. that sport shoes of the walking type tend to last longer then smartish shoes even when walking on pavement. Nil Einne (talk) 21:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, my solution to this problem is to wear durable and comfortable shoes to and from the office and to change into flimsy and uncomfortable "office shoes" when I get to the office. The carpet doesn't wear them out much. Marco polo (talk) 21:37, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you drive to work? In my experience, the pedals in a car wear out the soles of shoes quicker than walking or running. Astronaut (talk) 04:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

No, but I do walk up a short (~1 mile) but steep hill. Are there ANY technical benefits to smartish shoes over trainers (durability, comfort etc)?--Leon (talk) 06:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

In my experience the most hardwearing soles are those made out of solid rubber. Must be rubber not plastic and more importantly solid - no honeycombing. Thin soles made out of solid rubber are much more hardwearing than thick soles, which are unlikely to be solid or rubber. Avoid thick soles because they crack easily long before they wear out. I imagine this is due to their thickness resulting in more stress on the surface due to leverage, and because they are not solid and made with plastic to save the manufacturer money and stop them being very heavy. I agree that Clarks are a good brand, as they often have solid rubber soles. Vibram is a high-quality brand of sole that is usually or perhaps always solid rubber. So search for Vibram, and buy the shoes that have them. The shoes given in the link by the OP look like trainers to me and not what I'd call smart shoes. So I must be old-fashioned. 92.29.127.70 (talk) 13:47, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Strange guitar

So I recently bought an older acoustic guitar I found a pawn shop. On the headstock, it has the name "Gamma", and on the back of the neck there's a little sticker that says "Made in Japan", but that's it. There's nothing else to identify it by. I searched the almighty Google for quite some time and found this review of an electric by what I can probably safely assume is the same company, and there was also some vague post on a Gibson forum somewhere, but that too was about an electric and didn't have much information either. It's very clearly a Martin copy (it looks exactly like this minus of course the name), but it is a very good one and seems comparable to guitars five or six times its price (I paid 100$ for it).The tone is excellent, and it's extremely well built. Has anybody any information on this? I'm wondering if it was Martin's short-lived version of a Squier or something that never really took off. --72.175.196.58 (talk) 21:41, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I saw this kiwi auction for a similar guitar; you might email the seller and ask if he has any details. --Ludwigs2 23:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The trouble is, there are/were literally hundreds of cheap guitar manufacturers or companies that make cheap knockoffs of more reputable designs. Occasionally, one of these cheapo/knockoff companies becomes famous as their guitars become widely used merely because they are cheap (Danelectro springs to mind) but more often then not, some of these companies make a few guitars for a few years, then disappear from the market, having never made a significant impact. Under the "even a blind dog hits the tree sometimes" principle, its quite possible that some random knockoff cheapo ends up producing a really high-quality sound and keeps a good tune and all of that, so you can find some diamonds in the rough that way. That's likely what happened here; an insignificant manufacturer produced a cheap Martin knock-off that happens to actually sound really good, but since they didn't make any money at it, and never occupied a large market share, they didn't make many guitars and no one noticed them. It could also be that this was a bargin nameplate of a reputable manufacturer, (Like the Jasmine line from Takamine, or the Epiphone line from Gibson), but if that were the case here, it would be getting a lot more press than you are finding. --Jayron32 05:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

February 9

Dating Services for Seniors

I am searching a dating / matchmaking service for seniors (my mother is age 74). I am NOT looking for a service such as Match or EHarmony where you browse profiles and contsact people on line. Rather, I am seeking a service that sets senior up on blind dates with one another. My mother lives in Westchester County, New York. --70.23.81.136 (talk) 01:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I Googled "seniors meeting seniors New York" and found half a dozen suitable-looking services. I don't think you'll have a problem finding something. It's just a matter of figuring out the right search terms! SteveBaker (talk) 02:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

US government work?

I was looking around Flickr for pictures to upload to the commons when I came across a picture from the ongoing Seventh Fleet exercises in south Asia. Being familiar with government works on Flickr, they usually are considered public domain and pictures taken by the federal government are in the public domain as they're created by an employee of the government. However, this picture says "All rights reserved," which I found to be unusual; here is the picture in question.

Am I allowed to upload this picture to the commons? --Blue387 (talk) 02:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

If you didn't know who took the photo (and whether they were employed by the government at the time) - then you wouldn't have established that it's in the public domain. But it does say "Uploaded on February 4, 2010 by Amphibious Force 7th Fleet" - which strongly suggests it's OK. There are no guarantees though - our WP:COPYRIGHT page says that: "Works produced under a commission from the U.S. government by a contractor are most likely copyrighted." - so if the 7th Fleet paid a contract photographer to take the pictures then they could be copyrighted. But I'd say we were on pretty firm ground here. SteveBaker (talk) 02:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The picture caption says "U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Geronimo Aquino". That sounds like a military rank and not a contractor. --Blue387 (talk) 03:59, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

It's a stretch to conclude anything other than that the images are inappropriately licenced on flickr, and should be public domain. I think a strong case can be made for loading them to wikipedia based on the image descriptions. I could not find a means of contacting the flickr uploader. Does anyone know more than I about that aspects of flickr? --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I have a Flickr account, I will message the user. --Blue387 (talk) 04:46, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

It's a tough call. Pictures taken by U.S. government or military personel, as part of their duties as government or military personel are generally (but not always) public domain; however not every picture taken by someone who happens to hold a military rank qualifies as public domain. For example, someone who happens to be a "Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class" as a rank, but takes an picture merely as a private individual taking a picture for his own personal use, still retains copyright on his pictures. Just because it is a) a picture taken by someone in the military or b) a picture taken of a military subject or even BOTH, does not mean that it is public domain. You would have to establish that the picture was taken as part of his military duties, such as documenting something for a military publication like Stars and Stripes or a military yearbook or something like that, and not just him as taking the picture on his own just for his own use. --Jayron32 04:53, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:COPYRIGHT#United_States_Federal_Government which says exactly what I just said above, and I quote, "It is not enough that the employee was working at the time; he/she must have made the work as part of his/her duties, e.g. a soldier who takes a photograph with his/her personal camera while on patrol in Iraq owns the copyright to the photo." --Jayron32 05:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The same photos are all posted on [57], which is generally considered a source of government public domain photos, though in each instance they recommend you check the XMP metadata of the images for confirmation.

The Flickr image's metadata has the following:

	Byline	MC1 Geronimo Aquino
	Byline Title	Navy Public Affairs Support Elem
	Caption / Abstract	GULF OF THAILAND (Feb. 03, 2010) Royal Thai Navy ship HTMS Surin (LST 722) transits along side the amphibious dock landing ship USS Harpers Ferry (LSD 49) during Leaf Frog exercise. Harpers Ferry is part of the forward-deployed Essex Amphibious Ready Group (ARG) participating in Cobra Gold 2010, an annual exercise designed to train Thai, U.S., Republic of Korea and Singaporean task force personnel. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Geronimo Aquino/Released)
	Copyright Notice	Copyright: 2009
	Country / Primary Location Name	THAILAND
	Credit	USS Harpers Ferry LSD 49
	Date Created	20100203
	Keywords	HTMS Surin (LST 722)
	Object Name	100203-N-6692A-154  
	Province / State	GULF OF THAILAND
	Source	Digital
	Writer / Editor	MC1

Whereas the defenseimagery.mil of the same image has this:

	Byline	MC1 Geronimo Aquino
	Byline Title	Navy Public Affairs Support Elem
	Caption / Abstract	The Thai navy ship HTMS Surin (LST 722) travels alongside the dock landing ship USS Harpers Ferry (LSD 49) during Leaf Frog exercise Feb. 3, 2010, in the Gulf of Thailand. Harpers Ferry is part of the USS Essex (LHD 2) Amphibious Ready Group participating in Cobra Gold 2010, an annual exercise designed to train Thai, U.S., South Korean and Singaporean personnel. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Geronimo Aquino/Released)
	Category	K - Foreign
	City	HTMS Surin
	Copyright Notice	Copyright: 2009
	Country / Primary Location Name	Gulf of Thailand
	Credit	USS Harpers Ferry LSD 49
	Date Created	20100203
	Headline	
	Keywords	HTMS Surin (LST 722)
	Object Name	100203-N-6692A-154
	Original Transmission Reference	
	Province / State	GULF OF THAILAND
	Source	digital
	Special Instructions	Photographs approved by C7F and CTF 76 Public Affairs for Release.  Please contact LCDR Denver Applehans, Public Affairs Officer, ARG 7/Commander Task Force (CTF) 76, PSC 476 Box 14, FPO AP 96322-0014, DSN: (315) 252-2810, n01p@ctf76sas.navy.mil
	Supplemental Category	Unclassified
	Urgency	
	Writer / Editor	drclancy

Both of which seem to imply a copyright. The latter at least has a contact e-mail. Unfortunately, this metadata approach to tagging photos is a little inconsistent—whomever uploads them to the defense site seems to set them personally, so they vary quite a lot, so I'm not sure it is indicative. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Got a message back:

Hi, Please go ahead and use it, it is public domain. I will make the change. Thanks. Sincerely, LCDR Denver Applehans CTF 76 PAO

Followed by: Hi [my name], I just tried to change the license and there is no public domain option, only creative commons, do you know how to put a no copyright notice on it? Thanks. (end)

The White House has a special "United States Government Work" license instead of the usual licenses. I've e-mailed Flickr to seek advice on which license to choose. --Blue387 (talk) 14:40, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Debit cards in the US

I heard that in the US (I'm Canadian), it's almost unheard of to pay for stuff on debit, and that everybody just uses cash or credit card. Is this true, and if so, why? Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 04:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Its not true. Lots of Americans use Debit cards. I used one as my primary means of paying for stuff for a long time; indeed I only switch to a credit card when I found one that had a really good "rewards" program; I still never carry a balance. --Jayron32 04:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Debit cards caught on faster in Canada than they did in the U.S. because almost everyone in Canada uses one of five or six national banks, which allowed for the success of the Interac system. Americans now use debit cards more than they used to but still not as much as Canadians do, I'd say. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I personally know people here in the US that don't use debit until they have no other options. The reason that they give is that if someone steals the information, on a debit card, the stolen money belongs to the individual, whereas on a credit card, it belongs to the company. In theory it shouldn't affect the customer either way (the money should be paid back), but that's the reason. Falconus^{p t c} 12:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

This WSJ article points out that in May 2009, in the US, Visa reported that Visa-branded debit card payments exceeded Visa-branded credit card payments. The article speculates that this reflects increased fiscal discipline among US consumers, which would be because they are realizing it's a bad idea to keep paying 19.9% interest on their credit card balance. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, not sure where the rumor like that came from. I have been using the things almost exclusively for 8 years or so and I am from the US. Granted I am only a sample size of 1, so not a very useful statistical study. Googlemeister (talk) 17:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Most people I know (once again a small sample size) have visa branded debit cards, and many of them choose to have the cards processed as credit cards if the choice is available since processing as a debit card takes several extra steps. I'm not sure if this is normal for debit cards, but depending on the methodology used to calculate the number of transactions using debit versus credit, this could skew the results. Keep in mind I'm only speculating based on anecdotal evidence. Caltsar (talk) 18:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

The trend pointed out by that WSJ article was on dollar volume, not number of transactions. The "several extra steps" you mention is the simple entry of a PIN number, which is unnecessary for credit cards; this would not skew anyone's estimate of the number of transactions. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:08, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

In the UK, many credit cards now require PIN authorization instead of a signature. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:42, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

And then there are the people who take the extra steps to type out "number" after the acronym PIN when the N stands for "number" already.  :-) Dismas|^(talk) 21:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Our RAS syndrome article lists several excellent and well-founded excuses for my behavior. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Typing in a PIN isn't really an extra step, because the alternative is, waiting for the CC slip to be printed out, signing it, and handing it back. So in most cases it's one less step.

In the situations where you've got one of those on-screen signatures, well, that's still a step, and they never, ever work properly anyway. APL (talk) 03:33, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, it is usually cheaper for a vendor to process it as debit than credit. If you say, "whichever you prefer" when they ask, they will always (if they are paying any attention) choose debit. I go with debit, myself, because I don't see any good reason to incur additional costs for the poor vendor (it doesn't cost me any difference either way in the immediate sense, though in the long term such additional expenses are probably reflected in costs). --Mr.98 (talk) 14:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

My local gas station has set up their pumps to demand your Zip code when you use credit and a PIN for debit. I asked them why they started doing that since it doesn't seem to increase security measurably (if you find or steal a credit card, it's pretty easy to guess which Zip code the owner lives in). The manager said it was PRECISELY so that people would stop using their bank cards as credit cards (which costs him 2%) rather than as debit cards. Since it's slightly more hassle to enter a Zip code than a PIN (well, if you have a 5 digit Zip and a 4 digit PIN as I do), that might actually work! SteveBaker (talk) 20:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd be interested in knowing what the age-breakdown is. My parents still use credit cards more often than debit. I started off using debit (I had a debit card much earlier than a credit card, and now most ATM cards are debit cards as well), and have always used it almost exclusively. I wonder if there isn't a generational difference in both card using, as well as attitude towards credit (which scares the bejeezus out of me). --Mr.98 (talk) 14:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

This purely anecdotal and OR, but I live in the United States, where I used debit cards regularly during the late 1990s. Then in 2000, someone captured my card information and PIN and started making fraudulent debits to my account. Fortunately, my bank alerted me to the suspicious debits, but the money had been taken from my account, and I had to wait for a full investigation by the bank for the money to be restored to my account more than a month later. During the interim, I was without that money. I experienced a similar compromise once of a credit card account. In that case, the charges remained on my account until the investigation was completed, but I was not required to pay them, and if the credit card company had demanded that I pay, I would have been able to appeal. Ever since my experience in 2000, I have avoided debit cards because I prefer to let the bank take the risk from fraudulent transactions rather than expose my own bank account to that risk. Marco polo (talk) 19:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I really don't understand why anyone would use debit cards when credit cards are an option. Credit cards are much safer, and provided you pay the full balance every month, you don't pay any interest. I think that's also true in Canada, right? When I lived in Canada I couldn't get an unsecured credit card, because I hadn't established a Canadian credit history (my American credit history didn't count at all, which doesn't really make sense to me), so I got a secured one with a small deposit; I don't remember paying any interest. But then again maybe you wouldn't on a secured card, given that really you haven't borrowed anything. --Trovatore (talk) 19:42, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

That's true but since debit is so ubiquitous in Canada, we just don't worry about fraud until it actually happens. There are advertising campaigns about hiding your PIN and changing it regularly and people standing too close to you at the bank machine and all that...but I don't think it's something we worry about too much. With a debit card it feels like you are more in control of your own money, since it comes directly out of your bank account. A credit card is someone else's money. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:39, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

for entertainment

Please Can Any One Tell Me How To Make A Amplifier At Home With A Diagram —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bachandeep (talk • contribs) 07:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

This site looks pretty good. Friggums (talk) 10:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• • It would help, OP, is you explained exactly what kind of amplifier you wanted. The one Friggums points out is a jewel of craftsmanship, but might not be just what you want, and finding those transformers these days would be a bugger. PhGustaf (talk) 01:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Here is a small transistor amplifier project. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Who supplies the weather forecast for Google UK?

When you type in "weather" as a search term in Google UK, a weather forecast for London is supplied at the top of the page. Who supplies this please? The Google forecasts for my area shows mostly sunny weather, both the http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/ and the http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/ show grey cloudy weather. As currently where I am the sky is mostly blue, then on a one-point comparison it is also more accurate. 92.29.127.70 (talk) 13:57, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

wunderground.com, see for example google vs the weather underground output. Nanonic (talk) 14:35, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

For U.S. data, I am pretty sure that wunderground just repackaged the raw data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration databases; they may do something similar for other countries like the UK, whatever their equivalent national weather service bureau is. So it may be just that Google an weather undergound are using the same source data rather than one getting its info from another. --Jayron32 07:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

cocktail snack crackers

I am interested in any information on Koeppen Snappies,made in the 1950's. They were sold by Kauffmans dept. store in the city of Pittsburgh Pa. Are there any avalable any more? Where were they made? Any info. would be apreciated. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.116.16 (talk) 16:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

If you're quick, you can buy a box for $12 on eBay: [58] - oohhh - it's empty :-( Anyway, the photos show "Made in the U.S.A. by Ernst Koeppen, Oradell, NJ". The ingredients list says: Flour, Vegetable Shortening, Baking Powder, Salt, Sugar, Cheese and Spices. The US trademark office says that "Snappies" were introduced in July, 1935. The trademark holder is American Home Products and the trademark has now expired (which means that it's 99% certain that the product is no longer sold). SteveBaker (talk) 00:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

timetabling

A strange question, but does this sound realistic for a school timetable, for year 10 with the GCSE options added in:

monday-   science  english  maths    lunch   option 1 option 2
tuesday-  maths    science  english  lunch   option 2 option 1
wednesday-english  option 3 language lunch   science  IT
thursday- science  english  maths    lunch   option 3 option 1
friday-   option 2 science  option 3 lunch   maths    IT

?

148.197.114.158 (talk) 19:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I think there is some UK law stating that an hour of physical education is compulsory through secondary school, which you appear to be missing. --Mark PEA (talk) 20:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Citizenship/PSHE/etc too (half to one hour a week); I am also familiar with the idea of a "games afternoon" in addition to PE but I have no idea whether this is at all compulsory (or, indeed, yet; they recently revised the PE requirements). - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 22:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

No Latin or a living foreign language (perhaps that's an option)? Don't they teach "Divinity" or "Religious Instruction" in British schools now? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I thought those things were dropped out in the year or two preceding GCSE. SteveBaker (talk)

Languages have been optional at GCSE for a few years now. It's caused a BIG fuss because it was supposed to be accompanied by increased language teaching for younger children, but loads of children haven't really received that. Instead, because languages are perceived as a 'hard' subject that will get lower results, and given the targets children and schools are set, fewer and fewer state school students take language GCSEs, and not all of them will have that much choice about it (at that school).

Latin hasn't been common at British secondary schools of any type for decades. Ditto Divinity and RI. 86.183.85.88 (talk) 01:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

RI (or RE) must be taught in maintained schools, but parents do have the right to withdraw their children from it. DuncanHill (talk) 02:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It is called Religious Education or Religious Studies. No-one calls it Religious Instruction - that would be preaching, not teaching, and schools don't do that any more (although there is still a requirement for a daily act of worship of a largely Christian nature, but that is interpreted very broadly these days). --Tango (talk) 11:42, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

• Our article National Curriculum (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) may help answer these questions. DuncanHill (talk) 00:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you'd find both a morning and afternoon break in a real timetable, in addition to the lunchtime one. Ah yes, and you're missing the likely inclusions of Registration once or twice a day and Assembly, possibly daily. --Dweller (talk) 15:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

School discipline by detention is in regular use in Britain and occurs by definition outside the regular timetable (usually after it). Detentions need supervision so they may be arranged on particular day(s) of the week, possibly shown on a formal timetable. The Wikipedia article School corporal punishment notes the past use of caning in UK schools and that some 22% of secondary teachers back its continuance. There is a shortage of information on how caning sessions are scheduled in relation to the school timetable (if they are not simply ad hoc interruptions of classwork). Previous instances at a typical secondary school illustrate various schedulings: 1. In extended morning assembly time, before first class period (public beating, 2 boys, 4 cane strokes each, by headmaster on clothed buttocks). 2. During Physical Education class, 2nd afternoon period (class-only beating, 1 boy, 2 strokes with rubber sole, by games master on bare buttocks). British schools have often implemented corporal punishment in traditional structured ceremonies that would presumably occupy particular slot(s) in their timetable.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Why have you suddenly changed the subject to detention and corporal punishment? Nobody else has mentioned it, including the OP. 89.242.159.40 (talk) 21:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Corporal punishment is illegal in British schools, whether maintained or private. Detention can take place in breaks or after school hours. In a maintained school, if a detention is to take place after school, the school must give notice to the parents (this allows the parents to make alternative arrangements for transport etc for their child). DuncanHill (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

One or two more thoughts: firstly, for some reason, it seems rather repetitive. Given that all sorts of teachers teach lots of different class setups, you're unlikely to get the same two mornings. Afternoon breaks are somewhat rare in the UK at secondary level, but not implausible, if you consider Dweller's suggestion. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 17:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Which Wikipedia article has the longest article name by number of characters?

Just curious. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

(On the English Wikipedia!) If you include redirects, Protocol Amending the Agreements, Conventions and Protocols on Narcotic Drugs concluded at The Hague on 23 January 1912, at Geneva on 11 February 1925 and 19 February 1925, and 13 July 1931, at Bangkok on 27 November 1931 and at Geneva on 26 June 1936. If you don't, Night of the Day of the Dawn of the Son of the Bride of the Return of the Revenge of the Terror of the Attack of the Evil, Mutant, Alien, Flesh Eating, Hellbound, Zombified Living Dead Part 2: In Shocking 2-D. Now to check if those links I've just pasted actually work :) - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 21:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Nah, let's not count redirects. The longest one in my Watchlist is Rumours and conspiracy theories about the July 2005 London bombings. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:21, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, you definitely got mine beat. Night of the Day of the Dawn of the Son of the Bride of the Return of the Revenge of the Terror of the Attack of the Evil, Mutant, Alien, Flesh Eating, Hellbound, Zombified Living Dead Part 2: In Shocking 2-D is 209 characters. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

just curious part deux: how did you find that article? I can't even imagine how one would beggin looking for the longest article name. --Ludwigs2 23:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Jarry1250 beat me to it - but there was some technical discussion on the Wikipedia technical forum a year or two back about what the maximum possible title length is (it's 255 characters) - and some of the guys there searched for the longest one with some software tools written especially for the job. I believe we did have a "for real" 255 character title at one time - but it was considered to be artificially and unnecessarily long just for the sake of hitting that record and was eventually shortened. The record (over all time) has to be Test of maximum page name length: 255 characters; test of maximum page name length: 255 characters; test of maximum page name length: 255 characters; test of maximum page name length: 255 characters; test of maximum page name length: 255 characters; test. These days it's a redlink - and you'll find that you can't recreate it because it's protected. However, it was, briefly, an actual article and at 255 characters, it must have held the record then. SteveBaker (talk) 00:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course, there's Acetylseryltyrosylseryliso...serine. The title only clocks in at 35 characters, but it represents a word that's nearly 1,200 characters (and whose only claim to notability is that it's so long). There's even a note at the top of the page that the title was shortened due to technical restricions. Buddy431 (talk) 02:36, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

And there's smiles, which has a mile between... never mind. Marnanel (talk) 06:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Titin used to be called methionyl...isoleucine, which was short for a word so long it crashes my computer when I try to copy it. 189,819 characters; you can find the word here. Vimescarrot (talk) 07:00, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to hear a recording of someone actually saying that word. Maybe Daniel Tammet might pencil that in as his next memory project. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 07:08, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Movie titles longer than 8 1/2 offend the people of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I used my toolserver access, ran it as an SQL query. Which is so totally what I was given the access for :) Incidentally, I'm not really sure it's fair to include deleted edits - the number of maxed out entries like aaaaaaaaaassssssssssddddd people create is astonishing (pi to 250+ places is also particularly popular). The longest page name ever (include namespace identifier) was Wikipedia talk:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rising of the Northern Earls at (254 + 16 = 270 characters). - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 19:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

February 10

Serving suggestion

I've noticed the images used on food packaging are often accompanied by the words "serving suggestion". Some of the suggestions look quite nice, but more often it is a pretty mundane and obvious suggestion. For example, ice cream with the "suggestion" you serve it in a dessert bowl; savoury crackers with the "suggestion" you can put some cheese on a cracker [59]; or salt with images of things on which you might sprinkle salt (sweetcorn, potato wedges, etc. [60]) I can see why a manufacturer might want to show an idealised image of the product on its packaging, but is it really necessary to say "serving suggestion"? Are those particular words mandated by law somewhere, or do manufacturers think consumers are idiots who cannot work out that putting ice cream in a bowl is a reasonable way to serve it? Astronaut (talk) 02:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I rather think that it's to avoid claims of misrepresentation. If you bought a tin with a picture of some corned beef, lettuce, and buttered boiled new potatoes on it, and it turns out only to contain corned beef, you could claim that the label was deceptive and not a true description of the contents. DuncanHill (talk) 02:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, it's a disclaimer so they don't get sued because what's in the box doesn't look like what's on the outside. We have an (unreferenced) serving suggestion article, btw. FiggyBee (talk) 02:54, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm surprised anyone would imagine a claim of misrepresentation would stand any chance of success in a court of law. Astronaut (talk) 04:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Two words of type and they just don't have to worry about it. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 04:22, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Astronaut, in these days when a house burglar can successfully sue the owner of the house he has just burgled, for negligence in not protecting him from sustaining bodily harm while in the act of robbery, then truly anything is possible under the law. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 07:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The earliest example I can find on Google Books (other than things like "his self-serving suggestion") for information about "serving suggestion" and the law was to this cookbook from 1983 which claimed, during a discussion of US federal law on package labelling: If a [package] illustration shows a completed recipe or serving suggestion, it must be clearly stated. Marnanel (talk) 04:46, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

You see a lot of them labelled "Not Actual Size" too. It's a magic "Get Out Of Jail Free" thing that lawyers make them do whether it makes sense or not. The one notable exception to that which I have seen is that some MINI Cooper dealerships put "Actual Size" and "Battery Included" stickers on their cars. :-) SteveBaker (talk) 20:36, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Chief Rock the Relentless warrior ?????

I made the page chief rock the relentless warrior and i also own the myspace.com/chiefrock2k7 and i posted up my bio on http://www.megacityhiphop.com/artists/chiefrock/

These are posted up to promote my music and my career. as well as being posted on here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_hip_hop

i would like to post my page back up but my bio and some links to my videos and the music award shows that i was a nominee for. how would i go about doing that without being deleted once again ??

Thanks Chief Rock I also wrote the bio —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chief2k9 (talk • contribs) 12:01, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately you can't work on an article about yourself here as it would be deemed a conflict of interest. In order for there to be a page about you on Wikipedia, someone else (not you) would need to find some references to yourself in a reliable source such as a book, magazine, newspaper or professional music website. The content of those references can then be used to start the article. Without these things, I'm afraid an article about you will continue to be deleted because you are deemed to be non-notable. Sorry, --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

See also WP:COI, WP:BAND and WP:RS. In short, wikipedia is not a promotional site. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

We should take this discussion to your own talk page, but I did do a little research. Chief Rock's only claim to fame is to be nominated for a Native American Music Award and a Canadian Aboriginal Music Award. Both of those awards accept nominations from anyone, so they don't really mean anything. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:36, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly - we are an encyclopedia - not a promotional site. We do have articles about bands but there are some very clear "Notability" guidelines that must be met before we will host an article. Merely being nominated for some award is nowhere near sufficiently notable to meet our guidelines - and that's why your efforts to post here in the past were (quite correctly) deleted. There is absolutely nothing you can do about this - except perhaps to win some awards, cut some actual disks and get them reviewed in major (and I mean MAJOR) music magazines and newspapers. Worse still, we get REALLY nervous when people post articles about themselves - the probability of the article being fair and unbiassed is practically zero when people do that - which really means that you have to patiently sit back and (when you've met the notability criteria) wait for a fan or someone not directly connected with your group to create an article. If/when that happens, you should not contribute directly to it - although it might be OK to post corrections and pointers to more information on the corresponding Talk: page. But you are currently a million miles away from that. Sorry. SteveBaker (talk) 20:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Laptop companies

good dayy

i want to know which laptop company is the best in the world thanxxxx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zubeerlala (talk • contribs) 12:54, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Sadly this is what we call an ill-posed question, in that until you can provide a definition of the characteristics which make up "best", we cannot even begin to provide an answer. Best value for money? Best design? Best longevity? Best after-sales service? Best battery life? Best treatment of its third-world subcontracter's employees? --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to assume that the OP is thinking of buying a laptop and wants to know which one to go for. This is a valid question (although it would probably be better on the computing desk), but the OP should state their budget and what they want to use it for. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 13:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

See the Wikipedia article List of laptop brands and manufacturers. It notes that The vast majority of laptops on the market are manufactured by a small handful of Original Design Manufacturers but it won't tell you that any one is best. You may get some guidance from the many computer magazines that print reviews and advertisements for laptops, or from the experiences of other users. (OR:) I use laptops from HP and Acer and am reasonably satisfied by both. But note that laptops emblazoned with luxury car names such as Ferrari or Lamborghini are actually common models where the manufacturer pays a royalty to add the status trademark. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:57, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Cuddlyable. If you are looking to buy, spend a while studying a magazine such as PC Magazine or PC World.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:02, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Very interesting that I am the first Mac user to suggest looking at Macs. Their laptops are super. Bit pricy, but I wouldn't be without mine.86.219.33.213 (talk) 17:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

That's not interesting. Only 4 people replied before you and Macs have about 5% market share (ie. 1 in 20). --Tango (talk) 17:44, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Though I imagine that that they might be over represented here. Googlemeister (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Possibly. Not by enough for none of the first 4 responders being Mac users to be surprising, though. --Tango (talk) 17:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

 quantity != quality 

Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:42, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Who said it did? --Tango (talk) 20:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)