Talk:Triple Goddess (Neopaganism)/Archive 7

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Symbol image caption

Labelling the symbol as "Wiccan" is somewhat inappropriate, since the symbol is not used by Wiccans only, and no one has presented the slightest evidence that it was invented by Wiccans (something which I strongly suspect not to have been the case, for reasons discussed in the talk page archive). AnonMoos (talk) 15:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the citation, AM does have a point; it doesn't support the caption's claim. (The source also sets off my woo-woo detectors, but....) I believe the symbol is widely used, but we need a better cite than what we have at present. Mangoe (talk) 16:04, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Is this [1] a better source? Davémon (talk) 13:10, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I only get a very limited preview of that source when I click on the link; anyway, the fact that the symbol is used by Wiccans is not at all controversial -- but that's not enough by itself to label it a "Wiccan symbol" full stop. AnonMoos (talk) 22:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The source does identify it as a "Wiccan symbol", although I agree it is used outside of Wicca. I've no idea whether the source is a legitimate guide, or something just pretending to be one. Davémon (talk) 22:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

No one here but yourself has ever disputed that it's a "Wiccan symbol" in the sense of being used by Wiccans, but since the symbol is not used by Wiccans only, and nobody has presented the slightest evidence that it was invented by Wiccans (something which I strongly suspect not to have been the case, for reasons discussed in the talk page archive), therefore the previous wording of the image caption had potentially misleading implications. AnonMoos (talk) 20:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Irrelevant quotations

According to [|this edit], the quote: "The threefold division [of the year] is inextricably bound up with the primitive form of the goddess Demeter, who was also Hecate, and Hecate could claim to be mistress of the three realms. In addition, her relations to the moon, the corn, and the realm of the dead are three fundamental traits in her nature. The goddess's sacred number is the special number of the underworld: '3' dominates the chthonic cults of antiquity." has " clear and direct bearing on *Triple Goddess*, the topic of this article".As far as I can see it's discussing Hekate and Demeter, not The Triple Goddess, nor archetypal theories relating to that concept and not neopaganism. Can anyone explain how this is relevant the the subject of the Triple Goddess in Neopaganism at all? Cheers!Davémon (talk) 17:53, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

The goddess's sacred number, "3", dominated the chthonic cults of antiquity; Hecate could claim to be the mistress of the three realms. Have we elsewhere seen the term "triple goddess" in relation to Hecate? Oh, I'm sure it's as hard for you to make that out as it is for you to spell your own sources' names correctly, or to fill in complete footnotes (full titles, publishers, publication dates, ISBNs, etc.), which is why I end up doing those things for you too, Davémon. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 08:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for tidying up my edits. The question was: "Can anyone explain how [the quote] is relevant the the subject of the Triple Goddess in Neopaganism at all?" Davémon (talk) 19:26, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Despite some persistent attempts to erase mentions of her modern worship, Hecate is still today venerated by neopagans, Davémon, which makes it relevant that she is a Triple Goddess in her own right,

• Wilshire, Donna (1993). Virgin, Mother, Crone: Myths & Mysteries of the Triple Goddess. Inner Traditions / Bear & Company. p.165: "the temple of Hekat". ISBN 0892814942, ISBN 9780892814947.
• Moura, Ann (1999). Green Witchcraft II: Balancing Light & Shadow. Llewellyn. p.224: "Hec'-a-tay". ISBN 1567186890, ISBN 9781567186895.
• Roderick, Timothy (2005). Wicca, a Year and a Day. Llewellyn. p.207: "Pronounced Heh-KAH-tay". ISBN 0738706213, ISBN 9780738706214.
• O'Gaea, Ashleen (2004). Celebrating the Seasons of Life: Samhain to Ostara : Lore, Rituals. Career Press. p.29: "The pronunciation of her name varies. Some say Heh-kah-tay, some say Heck-a-tay, and a very few say Heck-ate. Most of the Wiccans I know say Heck-a-tay." ISBN 1564147312, ISBN 9781564147318.
• Cf. Shakespeare, William (ca.1594-96). A Midsummer Night's Dream, Act V, Scene 1, line 384: "By the triple Hecat's team".

thus entitled to be included in this article despite your own persistent erasure of her mentions here. You can hardly claim that this is "unsourced" or "original research" when you yourself have seen and deleted the cited reliable references right here in this article.

• E. Cobham Brewer's 1894 Dictionary of Phrase & Fable contained the entry, "Hecate: A triple deity, called Phoebe or the Moon in heaven, Diana on the earth, and Hecate or Proserpine in hell" (p. 593).
• The Roman poet Ovid, through the character of the Greek woman Medea, refers to Hecate as "the triple Goddess" (Metamorphoses, book 7, tr. John Dryden, et al, 1717).
• Likewise Demeter, e.g.: Walker, Barbara G. (1983). The Woman’s Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets. HarperCollins. p.327: "Also called Erinyes or Eumenides, the Furies personified the vengeful moods of the Triple Goddess Demeter, who was also called Erinys as a punisher of sinners. The three Erinyes were emanations of her." ISBN 006250925X, ISBN 9780062509253.

Neopagans read these same books, Davémon. Neopagans venerate these goddesses. Again, the article already mentions that "D. J. Conway includes a trinity of the Greek goddesses Demeter, Kore-Persephone, and Hecate, in her discussion of the Maiden-Mother-Crone archetype." (footnote: Conway, Deanna J. (1995). Maiden, Mother, Crone: the Myth and Reality of the Triple Goddess. Llewellyn. p.54. ISBN 0875421717, ISBN 9780875421711.) You know this; you've already seen this. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 22:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I fully understand that some neopagans worship an idea they call Hecate who they believe is an aspect of the Triple Goddess. What is not evident in the article text, nor in the discussion here, is the actual relationship between this neopagan Triple Goddess idea, as applied to Hecate (or Demeter) and the specific text being quoted from Jung. Just assuming there is a connection isn't really adequate rationale for adding a quote, see wp:or. Davémon (talk) 19:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

How do you you get from "I fully understand" to "What is not evident"? If you fully understood, it would be evident! What do you think her "three realms" are? Depending on rendition: Earth, either Sea or Heaven (her claim coming through Poseidon or Zeus respectively), and Underworld (Hades). See Brewer's text above, mentioning the Roman names for her. The neopagans' idea isn't anything new or different, Davémon, it's taken from the ancient descriptions of Hecate, no creativity required. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 20:04, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

All pseudohistory aside, my question remains: how is this specific quotation actually relevant to neopaganism? Davémon (talk) 20:25, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

So underneath a list of neopaganism citations you (1) wave everything all away as wp:or and (2) still ask how is this relevant to neopaganism? This is like shutting your eyes, covering your ears, saying "TELL ME!" and then chanting "NO NO NO NO NO...." — which leaves me doubting your desire to learn.

Neopagans have not just invented entirely modern deities, but adopted ancient deities to worship, including (as D. J. Conway stated) the trinity of Demeter, Kore-Persephone, and Hecate. The Roman Triple Goddess Diana Nemorensis also includes Hecate. You keep trying to separate neopagan deities from ancient deities, but this only shows you haven't read books like Aradia — which linked them, gave them continuity. — Sizzle Flambé (☎/✍) 21:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Barbara Walker

I would seriously consider removing the section on Barbara Walker. If left, it needs to include criticism of her work. While Walker includes lots of footnotes in her books, even a cursory familiarity with the sources cited shows she does not accurately represent those sources, but rather posts her own ideas and divergent interpretations. While her work is WP:V, as it exists in published form, I don't consider her WP:RS for anything but demonstrating the source for some of the more far-fetched Neopagan interpretations of historical goddesses, especially among Goddess Worshippers. While she was very influential in the eighties, for many years now even most Neopagans have known not to rely on her "research". - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I largely agree, the article is using Walker to posit dubious historical claims for which she is not a wp:rs, rather it should be purely reporting her opionins as her personal beliefs. Do you have a citation for her being influential in the eighties? That would be useful in establishing whether she represents an extreme minority view, or a more majority view. Davémon (talk) 19:25, 16 November 2009 (UTC)