Talk:Contemporary classical music

Article title (again)

I can see a major problem with the name of this article: contemporary means "happening now", but most of the music discussed in this article is no longer "contemporary" in that sense. Pop music of the 80s is not contemporary, so how can classical music of that decade be contemporary? I am aware that some critics and musicologists lump all the music from 1975 onwards under this banner, but I suggest most speak only of music written in the past ten years or so when talking about contemporary music. I might also point out that 20th-century classical music already talks about the music from the first 25 years of this article's time line (or it should, given the name). Perhaps 21st-century classical music would be a better title, then we could move any pre-2000 music to the other article. Thoughts? Jubilee♫clipman 01:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC) PS, both Cage and Messiaen died in 1992, so they can hardly be called "contemporary"! Jubilee♫clipman 01:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

A small correction: "contemporary" does not mean "happening now", but rather (1) "happening, existing, , living, or coming into being during the same period of time", (2)"simultaneous", or (3) "marked by characteristics of the present period: modern, current" (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary). Still, I take your point, even if the term is often meant to refer to a "present period" stretching back more than just a decade or two (the standards for pop music tend to be much shorter than for, say, opera). I like very much your idea of starting a new article on "Twenty-first century classical music" (though I must make the ritual objection to that word "classical", which I feel is inappropriate except in reference to the music of Classical Antiquity or the late-eighteenth-century period of music history conventionally designated by the term). Although it is still a little early to be able to talk about much with great certainty, it would be silly to wait until the entire century has gone by before beginning to write about it. Please feel free to start. I, for one, will be watching with interest.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Why not simply moving the current article over redirect, so both titles would point to it?Galassi (talk) 20:15, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are proposing here.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:23, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Move the article to the proposed new title. The old title will automatically point to the same article despite its new title. It is a logical thing to do, and I am willing to undertake it. It seems the word CLASSICAL will stay, as it remains accepted in all the vernaculars.Galassi (talk) 20:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

You mean, retitle this article (Contemporary classical music) as "Twenty-first century classical music"? I don't think that's a good idea at all, given that this article says practically nothing at all about music in the twenty-first century, and quite a lot about music in the late twentieth century. I think you will have a hard time getting editorial consensus to support this move.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:22, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I did it, so we'll see how it fares. It is still better than a previous one. The nomenclature is not really going to get sorted out until the 22nd century, to be sure...Galassi (talk) 23:02, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Erm, it might have been a bad idea for Galassi to move the article without waiting for others to join the debate. I was merely putting forward objections and waiting for opinions. This article still discusses music from latter quarter of C20th. Will Galassi now move those over to 20th-century classical music? At present there is a major anomaly! I've opened a can of worms! Sorry. Jubilee♫clipman 03:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC) Also, the lead still talks about contemporary classical music. I'm not rolling back: I think we might need to go to WP:RM and have a proper discussion. Jubilee♫clipman 03:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I really don't see a problem here. 20th century didn't'end on 12/31/1999, and 21st started earlier, as far as music is concerned. The same is true for any musical era.Galassi (talk) 03:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Chronologically, you are absolutely right. The twentieth century did not end until 00:00 hours on 1 January 2001. Figuratively speaking, if you are you saying that "contemporary music" and "twenty-first century music" are identical (on the analogy of the "long 19th century"), you must intend the twenty-first century to begin either in 1975 or in 1945, which is how the (sourced) definition in the lede defines it. Seems a bit early to me, either way.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

We need new imput or we will go round and round and round... One major point I made was that the articles overlap, massively. I actually think this article should stay at 21st-century classical music. We should just rewrite the lead to refer to the title-subject and move the discussions about music written between 1975 and 1990 over to 20th-century classical music. That creates a sensible "broad century" - to coin a phrase - here. But that is only my preference. If there is a strong arguement for the title Contemporary classical music (which I haven't seen yet) then move back. New input please! Jubilee♫clipman 04:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC) BTW, I know there is an overlap of 30 years between Baroque and Classical but there are clearly defined stylistic differences to be discussed in the appropriate articles. That may be true in the present case. If so, that needs to be clearly stated in the lead if we return to the old name. Jubilee♫clipman 04:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I, too, would like to see input from more editors on this. As I already said, I have no objection at all to having an article on twenty-first century classical music—in fact, I endorsed that idea. What I do take issue with is equating the expression "contemporary music" with "music composed after 1 January 2001". The literature does not (yet) support this definition. The re-direct from "Contemporary classical music", at least, ought to be changed to a split direct to both the later portions of Twentieth-century classical music and to Twenty-first century classical music, if that is possible.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. This name change is controversial and is not supported by concensus opinion, nevermind by scholarly sources. Irrespective of whether or not it is a suitable definition 'Contemporary classical music' (Contemporary music) is widely used. What citations exist for the purposes of demonstrating usage of the term '21st-century classical music'?? Please establish a clear concensus before changing the name.Measles (talk) 10:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Fair points raised here. I notice name change has been reverted by Measles: probably correctly. Leave this article here. As Jerome Kohl suggested, I'll start a new article at 21st-century classical music and we can quibble about a better name for this article later. There is perhaps a stylistic change somewhere around 1975 which overlaps with other developments in latter quarter of C20th. We'll have to define it. Jubilee♫clipman 13:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I've created the page 21st-century classical music. Any move will have to be a merger now! I suggest leaving the new article since it will be expanded as the century progresses. There will be overlap but there is one with 20th-century classical music anyway. The present article, Contemporary classical music, will be renamed at some point in the future when this period is better defined by musicologists. I have no doubt about that. Jubilee♫clipman 14:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

well it seems there is now overlap across four articles: contemporary music, contemporary classical music, 20th-century classical music, and 21st-century classical music, someone should really sort this out once and for all, preferably someone with the musicological credentials to dispel the confusion here. Measles (talk) 16:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Contemporary music and Contemporary classical music should be merged. See talk:contemporary music. Here is a rationale for the existance of the main articles: 20th-century classical music discusses the historical period, now past; the new article, 21st-century classical music, will only discuss recent developments in this century; the present article discusses the cross over and how the former period has influenced the latter. The three are separate entities, though any overlap should be minimised, I agree. Jubilee♫clipman 03:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Jubileeclipman, you state: "21st-century classical music, will only discuss recent developments in this century". Problem here, as I see it, is that this is covered by the term 'contemporary music'. Measles (talk) 11:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

That's precicely the point, Measles: contemporary music does not exclusively cover recent developments. The term covers anything from 1975 onward - or 1945 onward, depending who you talk to. By recent, I mean the very latest developments from, say 1995, on. After all we are only ten years into this century and a lot has happened in that time. I hope to make that point clear as the article develops. Thanks for the input though: it helps to define the boundaries in more concrete ways. Jubilee♫clipman 19:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I see you are now contradicting what you stated at the top of this section ; ) - however, I'm sorry, but I disagree with your definition, contemporary music is generally interchanged with so called new music, and both terms are, whether correctly or incorrectly, widely used within academia and the professional music circuit to refer to music now. I also think the 20th/21st historical distinctions you are drawing are arbitrary, there are composers who have written work in the last 10 years that is stylistically indistinguishable from the music they were writing in 1990 (or earlier in some cases) so to suddenly define what they have been doing recently as 21st Century music is meaningless. The use of the term 20th Century music had meaning initially, it referred to music that had broken decisively with various musical traditions. We simply have not seen a paradigm shift of the same magnitude in the last 10 years; and post-modernity put paid to this narrow chronological connectionism you are dabbling in here. But that's just my view, so knock yourself out defining what you think constitutes classical music in the 21st Century : ) Measles (talk) 11:02, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I meant that the present article does not exclusively cover those developments "happening now". Sorry for the confusion! Anyway, Jerome Kohl corrected me. Also, music written in 2009 is quite different stylistically from that written in 1975, IMO, which is where the present article kicks off. Finally, I have just checked the articles against each other and the overlap is minimal, if not actually non-existant. 20th-century classical music does not discuss any music post-1975, as far as I can see (except Spectralism which contains no examples), so it could almost be defined as music written 1895-1975. (Postmodern music and Minimalism only cite music written between 1939 and 1971.) Contemporary classical music discusses very little music post-1995, though names of current composers are dropped throughout. I suggest 21st-century classical music be expanded to include all the current trends and that we wait for consensus before we decide how to proceed (though others need to intitiate that discussion since I created the article). In starting that article, I was just following up on a suggestion from Jerome Kohl. Jubilee♫clipman 19:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

(semantics): actually, I meant that both the article and the term do not cover recent developments. Anyway, I now agree with the broader definition. Jubilee♫clipman 20:55, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Solved one problem: I've merged Contemporary music into this article.  :) Jubilee♫clipman 03:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I feel the term classical has no place here. If we're talking about contemporary music (contemporary being interpreted as modern)then everything listed under movements is right where it should be, but then the title of the article is just confusing. The article should be titled simply Contemporary Music. 206.248.183.75 (talk) 22:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

PDQ Bach

I've just thought: shouldn't P. D. Q. Bach/Peter Schickele here somewhere? He did parody an enormous number of styles and has influenced a great many composers in one way or another. Jubilee♫clipman 04:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps you're right. Schickele should doubtless also be added to the article Musical historicism, as well.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I've added him/them to both articles. Jubilee♫clipman 09:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Major issues to resolve

(Following posted on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Contemporary music)

The following articles overlap and the situation need to be rationalized: contemporary music, contemporary classical music, 20th-century classical music, and 21st-century classical music. The following issues are the most urgent (in order of importance):

• It has been suggested that contemporary music and contemporary classical music be merged, but no consensus has been reached as to which way.
• The article 21st-century classical music is contentious. It is claimed that the title is not the proper name for this period and that the article's subject properly belongs in contemporary music/contemporary classical music. (Note that I wrote the article, in good faith, following up on a suggestion.)
• 20th-century classical music appears to end in 1980, or so, despite the period defined in the Periods of European art music box.
• None of the articles fully expore the music of the period in question.

Other issues exist, as well, but those above need immeadiate attention.

Thank you for your input. --Jubilee♫clipman 21:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Contemporary music and Contemporary classical music have been merged. --Jubilee♫clipman 04:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

This call for discussion has been posted on multiple talk pages. In order to keep all relevant discussions in one place, please post any response on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music#Major issues to resolve. --Deskford (talk) 12:49, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Composers for deletion

A substantial list of articles on individual composers has been proposed for deletion on the grounds that they were initially created in a mass spam effort by a record company. Whilst some of these composers may be non-notable (I hadn't heard of some of them), some are certainly of international significance. Please look through the list on Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Empreintes_DIGITALes and if any of these composers come under your sphere of expertise add a few references, remove excessive promotional content, and contribute to the discussion so that we don't lose valuable articles. --Deskford (talk) 13:12, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard of any of them! However they may indeed be notable in some countries/styles etc they should be reviewed rather than deleted. --Jubilee♫clipman 03:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC) Addendum: Looking more carefully, I have heard of (and heard music by) Jonty Harrison and Adrian Moore. Others I may have come across, though I am rubbish at remembering names! --Jubilee♫clipman 03:49, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I think you will find that the discussion of this proposal is over on Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Empreintes_DIGITALes. The proposal has also been withdrawn, after numerous responses defending many of the composers on the list.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

These are all almost exclusively electroacoustic composers and they are all quite important and well known within that field, which has developed as a significant parallel stream in contemporary music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JDOCallaghan (talk • contribs) 09:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)