Talk:Catholic (term)

2004

I have tried to improve this page but it still does not read fluently --BozMo 07:28, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I do not particularly like the "rightly or wrongly" in the last paragraph. It goes without saying the every one who believes something believes it "rightly or wrongly and inclusion for this particular case looks POV --(talk to)BozMo 10:36, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Fair article (in muddy waters). Good. But I find the last paragraph ("Many Protestant..." -till- "The Orthodox churches of course, agree. ") a little misleading: It seems to imply that Roman Catholics believe that the Pope is the head of the universal Body of Christ; they (we) don't. The Church (in its most profound/mystical sense) is a Body; in that sense, the Head is just Christ. The pope is the head of the bishops, and hence the head of the Church as institution (divine institution, granted). The paragraphs seems to echo some anti-catholic prejudices and attacks eg. http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Scr/hoc.htm which purposedly confounds the two analogical -but different- uses of the term 'head'. The page above indeed links to out of context prases from CV 2; but if one reads the entire page http://www.cin.org/v2church.html one can find 'The Head of this Body is Christ ...He is the head of the Body which is the Church.'--Leonbloy 17:40, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

However, the quotes, taken from the documents of Vatican I and Vatican II, clearly speak for themselves on the matter:

"… the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ, the visible Head of the whole Church …" Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter III, § 18

"Therefore, if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant... let him be anathema." Vatican I, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ, Chapter 1, § 6

"… the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church…." Vatican I, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ, Chapter 3, § 1

"The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians…." Vatican I, First dogmatic constitution on the church of Christ, Chapter 4, § 2

This should be merged w Catholicism. Sam [Spade] 06:50, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

For future reference, if/when this is ever discussed, note incipient comment on Talk:Catholicism#Organization. I would say that it is basically the case that since "c/Catholic" and "Catholicism" are words with separate entries in dictionaries, and do not entirely overlap in scope, it is worthwhile to have separate entries here as well. In particular, Catholicism is the term for the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church, whereas "catholic" has a couple of other uses. Also, as a matter of etymology and history, the reasons for particular uses of the word "c/Catholic" as a word merit separate coverage to the extent that they are not covered elsewhere. Trc | [msg] 11:24, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Catholic/Catholicism

Catholic, Catholicism and Roman Catholic Church are separate ideas that can stand alone as separate articles. The problem we find is that these articles have overlapping information. The solution is not to merge them but to rewrite the articles correctly so that pertinent information is found in the article it belongs to. --Gerald Farinas 04:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think we're agreed that the articles might need work but a merge is wrong... removing tag... any huge obhection and you can re-add it I'm sure gren 12:44, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this is a weak and flawed article. It should IMHO be deleted another and whatever accurate information there is here (and I don't think it is much) transferred to the far superior Catholicism article. FearÉIREANN 21:41, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article is worth keeping. "Catholic" and "Catholicism" are two different concepts with some overlap but not enough to justify merging them into one article. --Colenso 18:51, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the article is definitely worth keeping, but there are problems with it the way it is. It keeps rehashing what denominations call themselves so that it is confusing and thus seems somewhat circular or redundant in structure. Perhaps some references are needed and it could be more factual and less contentious? JMK

Protestants who do not consider themselves catholic?

"Some Protestant Christian Churches, avoid using the term completely." I can't think of one Protestant denomination that would disavow this label. Does anyone know of one? --Doc Glasgow 00:29, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Afrikaner Calvinism is one example. --Colenso 19:08, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

And the Free Presbyterian Church. And most small evangelical groups, etc. Many born again Christian groups believe that they and they alone are the real church of Christ and everyone else isn't. In no way can that view be interpreted as catholic (ie, universal). It is mainstream christian groups, specifically those who believe in the apostolic succession of bishops, who believe that there is a broad catholic/universal church of Christians, subdivided into denominations. Fundamentalist protestantism holds different views. Some accept the 'broad church with divisions' idea. Others believe that they alone are the successors to the original church and that no-one else is really christian at all. Some believe that there were moments before them when isolated others (Luther, Calvin, etc) appeared with true christian beliefs, only for their 'churches' to lose touch with true christianity, with christianity eventually disappearing until they appeared in modern times. FearÉIREANNFile:Ireland flag large.png\^(talk) 16:35, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church (USA) are two denominations which do not generally uphold apostolic succession (although some UMs do), but without question consider themselves catholic. Probably, most mainline denominations do. KHM03 16:40, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The Presbyterian and Methodist traditions most certainly do believe themselves to be part of the one catholic church. (Unless things have changed radically since I was ordained in the Presbyterian Church.) I corrected the article to reflect this. - Vandy

The general rule is that all denominations that profess the Apostle's Creed, Nicene Creed and its variants in their worship services consider themselves catholic. --Gerald Farinas 16:56, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I think we need to keep this article - revised a bit - since, as others have already stated, most Christians do consider themselves catholic in the purest sense of the term (i.e., part of the universal Christian Church; part of Christendom). That's not very surprising, is it? KHM03 15:49, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I came here to find out what "catholic" in ters of the Nicene Creed meant. This needs to be a separate article from Catholicism.

KHM03 inserts his own definition first

The term can refer to the notion that all Christians are part of one Church, reagrdless of denominational divisions. This "universal" interpretation is mentioned in the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed.

• My first objection is that this has not been discussed here and it is certainly a matter of controversy.
• Is there a citation for this interpretation as being the first or primary definiton of Catholic?
• Isn't this equivalent of defining all who profess the Nicean Creed to be Catholic? Is this the intent of what is being asserted here?

My own sense of what small "c" catholic means is redundant to this section already in the article:

Early Christians used the term to describe the whole undivided Church, the word's literal meaning is universal or whole. When divisions arose within the Catholic Church, the Church fathers and the historic creeds used it to distinguish the mainstream body of orthodox Christian believers from those adhering to sects or heretical groups.

Perhaps 'historic creeds' should be modified to read 'historic creeds such as the Nicean Creed'. This is being discussed in contemplation of reverting KMH03's addition. patsw 13:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I certainly meant no offense; I mentioned it first simply because it's the most "general" and "vague" definition, with each definition following increasingly narrow. The attempt was to be as NPOV and "encyclopedic" as possible. Peace, KHM03 13:45, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, a quick glance at Merriam-Webster's Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/) reveals these definitions:

• 1 a often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the church universal
  • b often capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it
  • c capitalized : ROMAN CATHOLIC
• 2 COMPREHENSIVE, UNIVERSAL; especially : broad in sympathies, tastes, or interests

So, it would seem that the definition which I placed first is acceptable given this source. Again, my intent was not to offend...I'm actually surprised that this edit is viewed as controversial (to be honest, I still don't see the controversy present in it). My intent was to be as broad and NPOV as possible, and as ecumenical as possible, from a Christian perspective. Hope this helps! KHM03 14:17, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Response: KMH - All Christians who subscribe to the Nicene Creed are catholic (note the little "c"). This does not mean that they are a part of the Roman Catholic Church; only that they are part of the one universal church. For clarification, just about any catechism which addresses this will say the same thing.

I agree 100%...but the article is "Catholic", not "Roman Catholic Church". KHM03 20:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree. Part of the universal church. SR - RE

"Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church".

When was this title first used? I believe it was during the Vatican Council of 1870, but I may be mistaken. KarmaKameleon 05:26, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

At 2:37 today KarmaKameleon wrote here:

It was not until the Vatican Council of 1870, did the Roman church officially called itself "Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church", laying exclusive claim to the name catholic.

So I presume KarmaKameleon is really asking for proof that the Roman Catholic Church referred to itself simply as the Catholic Church before 1870.

There is an abundance of earlier texts in which it does so. But for KarmaKameleon's purposes it should be enough to refer to the objections that, from the time Protestants came to exist, they raised against that use by the Roman Catholic Church:

In England, since the middle of the sixteenth century, indignant protests have been constantly made against the "exclusive and arrogant usurpation" of the name Catholic by the Church of Rome. The Protestant, Archdeacon Philpot, who was put to death in 1555, was held to be very obstinate on this point (see the edition of his works published by the Parker Society); and among many similar controversies of a later date may be mentioned that between Dr. Bishop, subsequently vicar Apostolic, and Dr. Abbot, afterwards Bishop of Salisbury, regarding the "Catholicke Deformed", which raged from 1599 to 1614.[1]

Lima 13:24, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe the term "catholic" when it was first used in the 4th century was to describe what was then one church. I believe churches that formed after that considered themselves part of the "catholic" church. I still want to find out when did the church based in Vatican/Rome officially called itself both Catholic and Roman. KarmaKameleon 14:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Long before the fourth century, Saint Ignatius of Antioch, in whose writings is found the earliest surviving use of the phrase "catholic Church", certainly excluded heretics from its meaning, calling them "beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with." Sincerely believing in the orthodoxy of its faith, the Church in Rome has from the beginning called itself both catholic and Roman. KarmaKameleon may also wish to read the link already given above, or the Wikipedia article Catholicism Lima 18:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Can you cite the source which indicates that "the Church in Rome has from the beginning called itself both catholic and Roman"? I have looked at the link you pointed out. As for the wikipedia article, I believe it's still a work in progress, as is every wikipedia article. KarmaKameleon 20:13, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Which description does KarmaKameleon think the Church in Rome did not apply to itself from the beginning, but began to use only later? Surely not the adjective "Roman". Who could ever doubt that the Church in Rome was Roman. Does KarmaKameleon imagine the Church in Rome did not consider itself catholic? Can KarmaKameleon possibly imagine that when, for instance, Pope St Leo the Great preached to the Church in Rome that "the catholic Faith, which withstands all errors, refutes these blasphemies also at the same time, condemning Nestorius, who divides the Divine from the human, and denouncing Eutyches, who nullifies the human in the Divine" (Sermon 91), he was saying that the Church in Rome was not catholic, but was instead on the side of one or other of the heretics Nestorius or Eutyches? Was he saying the Church in Rome was anything but catholic, when he told his flock: "Refuse to put wicked fables before the clearest truth, and what you may happen to read or hear contrary to the rule of the catholic and Apostolic creed, judge it altogether deadly and diabolical" (Sermon 24)? Lima 21:26, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I can see you are knowledgeable of many catholic writings, etc. But going back to my question, please cite your source which says that "the Church in Rome has from the beginning called itself both catholic and Roman"? Anything earlier than the Vatican Council of 1870 and similar to "Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church"? KarmaKameleon 21:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

My immediate reaction to this latest intervention by KarmaKameleon was to throw up my hands and leave it. How can anyone sincerely imagine that the Church in Rome ever considered itself either non-Roman or non-Catholic? But I have now returned, and I will just direct KarmaKameleon to the Council of Trent, which on 4 February 1546 declared "the creed in use in the holy Church of Rome" to be "the creed of the catholic faith"; which on 13 January 1547 decreed: "If anyone affirms that one who after baptism falls into sin cannot by the grace of God rise once more, or that he can recover the lost grace by faith alone without the sacrament of penance (administered) as the holy Roman and universal Church, instructed by Christ the Lord and his apostles, has hitherto believed, observed and taught, let him be anathema" ... I regret that my patience does not run to answering any further such questions by KarmaKameleon - unless KarmaKameleon will first respond to this: Please cite any source whatever of any time whatever, either before or after 1870, in support of the absurd notion that the Church in Rome ever, even for one moment, declared itself, or even just considered itself, to be either non-Roman or non-Catholic. Lima 12:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

The point I am trying to make, both in the contribution I made which you removed and labeled a falsehood, and in this discussion, is that it was only in 1870 at the Vatican Council did the church in Rome officially called itself "Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church". And with this, it laid exclusive claim the the name "catholic". So far, you have not provided any source to dispute this claim. To respond to your challenge, I cite the Nicene creed. KarmaKameleon 16:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

What absolute nonsense! The Roman Church, whose General Council at Trent, convened and ratified by the Pope, called it "the holy Roman and universal (i.e. catholic) Church", also "cites the Nicene Creed", and yet can apply to itself, to the exclusion of heretics, what the creed says of the catholic Church. [It was Luther's followers who felt the need to change the text of the (Apostles') Creed, putting "Christian" in the place of "catholic".] I have failed in my attempt to help KarmaKameleon see what so many Protestant leaders (mentioned above) of the period of Trent and later easily saw and strongly complained about. I apologize for my failure, and give up. Lima 19:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

External links

The number and nature of the external links in this article is not in accordance with my reading of WP:EL. In particular, There seems to me to be a consensus that internal links are preferred to external.

I removed a bundle as having nothing obvious to add to what is, by my reckoning, an admirably complete and well-written article. I left in the Holy See website and the catholic encyclopaedia, both of which are obviously relevant. Different strands of catholicism are linked from the article and discussed in (e.g.) Traditionalist Catholic, which is good. If I've removed any which are [[[WP:RS|sources]] for this article, please do add the pages back in under == Sources ==

• Catholic Answers Catholics Answers
• Catholic Files free Catholic downloads
• TheCatholic Guide The Catholic Guide
• CatholiCity free catholic CDs and books
• Catholic Apologetics of America
• Catholic Exchange non-profit charity
• Catholic Encyclopedia
• Summa Theologica
• Fish Eaters: The Whys and Hows of Traditional Catholicism
• Scripture Catholic; Defending Roman Catholicism with its Sacred Scriptures
• myCatholic.com — A customizable Catholic web portal.
• Catholic Church FAQs from American Catholic
• Catholic Blogs & Resources
• Traditional Catholic Reflections and Reports

We're not Google, we're not a collection of links, we're not a vehicle for promoting websites.

Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] AfD? 21:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Stormh2o's changes

Would even one non-Catholic (non-Roman Catholic) think Stormh2o's changes take a neutral point of view? If so would he/she say so here, in support of Patsw's challenge. I think that most (Roman) Catholics would also admit that the change are not neutral in their point of view. Any comments? Lima 19:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)