Talk:History of early Christianity

NPOV compliance

Wikipedia is about verifiable points of view, not truth. Much of this article is well-cited, indicating good research. In some cases however the text itself is wrtten as if there is one truth, one set of universally agreed-upon facts about early Christianity. This is not the case. There are many people, including notable historians, for example, who question whether Jesus' original followers thought he was the messiah. Maybe they did. Some people sure believe they did. My point is simple: just identify whose view is being presented. I have made some changes in this regard which I hope will be respected, i hope others will edit with this in mind. Today there is a consensus among Christians about some elements of Christian history. I have no objection at all to that view being include,d prominently, in this article - as long as it is identified as such. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:57, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for whatever I did wrong. All I am aware of doing is restoring, with a seemingly reliable source to support it, a statement that was deleted without first trying a "citation needed" tag. I am no expert on the question, but I thought that the author of the book I quoted must be. He is a lecturer in Comparative Religion at the University of Manchester and the minister of a synagogue in that city and, as well as the book quoted, he wrote two other books on Jewish history. Perhaps someone who holds the opposite view can be cited, if his view is controversial. Lima (talk) 17:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I put the citations in an earlier sentence. lima, I am NOT objecting to the source you are using, or to the view you are adding! I have no objection at all! I am just saying that the view has to be presnted as a view and not as a universally held fact, that is all. Among historians there is no certainty about who Jesus was or what his original followers believed. There are a range of views. You added one, and it is a notable one. My only point is that it is one among many and should be presented as such. i wasn't criticizing the view you added. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Accusation of organization/website promotion

I don't see it, all I see are good faith edits. The massive revision proposed by Kraftlos [1] seems unjustified, I'm reverting it. 75.14.219.163 (talk) 17:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I think what happened is that Kraftlos deleted an external link but did it in such a way that it removed everything that had been added in the meantime. I believe it was intended as a good faith edit, but clumsily done. He or she removed the same link from a number of other pages in the same way. --Rbreen (talk) 18:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there some external link that should be deleted from this article? If so, let's delete it. Without removing lots of good faith edits. 75.14.219.163 (talk) 19:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I was just trying to remove the external link. A user has been adding links to their web sites and I was doing a quick reversal on 15 or so articles. I must have restored a much earlier version by acident. --Kraftlos (talk) 00:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

SR's edits

I made some changes to the article. An anonymous user made many more changes. Kraftlos reverted all changes. I restored my changes, which the anonymous user reverted. To be clear: anonymous user, your conflict is with Kraftlos, not me. Kraftlos: do not revert my edits without an explanation.

I have restored my edits without changing the rest of the text with the only exception of correcting misinformation about Jews, specifically, Christianity emerged in the context of first century Judaism but NOT the Tannaim (as was linked); also, Rabbinic Judaism did not begin to develop until the third century, after the period under discussion. Finally, Hillel and SHamai were Pharisees, not critics of the Pharisees.

One final thing: I did not remove this line but unless someone can provide a verifiable source, I will: "The revolution turned against the Jewish Christians and some were killed." This refers to Bar Kochba's revolution. What is the verifiable source for this? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You made a lot of changes to the article, so I'll make some also, with comments. 75.14.219.163 (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry I deleted James the Just, it was unintentional and I am glad you restored it.

But you have made other changes which are false. There is no evidence that Masada was notable at the time. The key event was the destruction of the Temple, according to all historians. The Bar Kochba revolt was important too, and should be included, but not in the same sentence because it occured sixty years later and a lot happened in those sixty years. Finally, you keep confusing Rabbinic Judaism for first and second century Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism only begins to develop in the third century, a hundred years after this time period. What remained after the destruction of the Temple were Pharisees and Christians, not Rabbinic Jews and Christians. I do not understand your use of Hillel and Shammai, two Pharisees who lived before the destruction of the Temple. Do not misrepresent Jewish history. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

1. A lot of Zealots died at Masada, the Zealots were a "fourth sect" of late second temple Judaism that did not survive. 2. Yes, Bar Kochba is important, the fact that it occured sixty years later shows that not everything changed during the first revolt, in fact the Roman-Jewish Wars occured over a given time period, they were not a one time event. 3. OK, let's define Rabbinic Judaism as 3rd century. All historians consider the fall of the Temple as the end of Phariseeism. What do we call Judaism between Phariseeism and Rabbinicism? I propose Early Rabbinic Judaism, what term do you propose? 4. Hillel and Shammai and the debate between the two schools lasted well past the actual men and is significant in showing that certain aspects of Phariseeism were rejected even by Early Rabbinic Judaism. 75.14.219.163 (talk) 19:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

This article is titled "Early Christianity", not Masada, not Zealots, not debates among the Pharasees or among Rabbinical Jews. The fall of the temple is certainly not the end of Phariseeism as that sect was not especially tied to the temple. It was the end of the Saducees. It was the "end" of the Pharisees only as much as it now assumed the leading role in the rallying of non-Christian Judaism. But that was a process that took some time so it is absolutely correct to state that Pharisees (and Christians) were the only groups left after 70 AD. Str1977 ^(talk) 19:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The Roman-Jewish Wars were the end of Phariseeism. 75.14.219.163 (talk) 19:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No! Str1977 ^(talk) 08:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this is not an article on Jews except insofar as early Christians were Jews, so the context of first and second century Judaism needs to be accurate. It is true that there is a transitional period after the fall of the Temple, Jacob Neusner among others have written extensively on this; I added a sentence to signal the transition which I hope you accpet as a compromise between myself and the anonus. As to Hillel and Shammai, I still do not understand your statement. What does it mean to say "Rabbinic Judaism" rejected elements of "Pharisaic Judaism?" This suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of Rabbinic Judaism. Whereas the Church moved over the centuries more and more in the direction of doctrinal uniformity, Rabbinic Judaism perpetuated the Pharisees' tradition of debate and dissension. Teaching of the house of Shammai were often not accepted by the sages as normative - yet these teachings are included in the Talmud. The point is that Rabbinic Judaism includes minority views and interpretations and legal rulings, it does not declare them heretical, it does not reject them. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Please, Slrubenstein, we need not make such distinctions. I absolutely agree with your take on Phariseeism and Rabbinical Judaism but please don't use Christianity as a contrast. In Christian tradition, various writings not entirely accepted or by writers (Clement of Alexandria, Cyprian even Augustine) later condemned (Tertullian, Origen) are included as well. Str1977 ^(talk) 08:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

A number of Shammai's views are rejected. Not declared heretical, simply rejected as false conclusions. There is a significant difference between the Pharisees and Rabbinic Judaism. Doctrines of the Pharisees resulted in the Roman-Jewish Wars. The Rabbis made debate internal and rejected the positions of the Zealots. The Rabbis survived. 75.14.219.163 (talk) 20:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

That's splitting hairs. If you declare a certain view to be wrong you are essentially calling it "material heresy". Doctrines of the Pharisees did not result in the First Jewish War. Some Pharisees (e.g. Josephus) participated but so did other groups, including Saducees (who were opposed to starting the war) and Essenes. But it was no Pharisean war. The leading Pharisee, Jochanan ben Zakai, sneaked out of Jerusalem at the time. At the end of the war, only the Pharisees (and the Christians) survived with the Zealots, Saducees and Essenes being destroyed or left without a cause or centre. Yes, Pharisees participated in the Second Jewish war and Akiba even declared Bar Kochba the Messiah and payed dearly for it but is there any basis for the claim that "Doctrines of the Pharisees" led to it and where these doctrines later reputiated? Str1977 ^(talk) 08:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

(Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Zealots, Proselytes) -> Roman-Jewish Wars -> Early Rabbinic Judaism and Early Christianity. 75.14.219.163 (talk) 20:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

What doctrines of the Pharisees resulted in the war with the Romans? The Pharisees rejected the Zealots. Some may have sympathized with Zealots but they were opposed in general to the war of 67-70. This is another confusion you introduce when you combine the 67 war with the Bar Kochba rebellion - the latter was indeed supported by key elements of the Tannaim. The former was not.

To say that the views of the house of SHammai were rejected means that the Rabbis rejected the views of the Pharisees, is like saying that the Rabbis rejected the views of the Rabbis. Amoraim argued and rejected the views of other Amoraim as much as they rejected the views of Tannaim. The work of the Tannaim and of the Amoraim are both considered parts of Rabbinic Judaism, and the Tannaim included Pharisees. The issue is not the chronology. The issue is that the Pharisees did not "disappear" with the destruction of the Temple any more than Early Christianity "disappeared" and was replaced by Christianity. After the destruction of the Temple, the Pharisees remained. Over the next hundred and fifty years, Pharisaic Judaism transformed into Rabbinic Judaism.

You are trying to push a particular view which is rejected by all mainstream Judaism and by all professional historians of Judaism: that there is no connection between the Pharisees and modern Judaism. All Jews today who identify with Rabbinic Judaism - that includes Orthodoxy, Conservative, and Reform Judaism - see themselves as heirs of the Pharisees. Phariseeic Judaism became Rabbinic Judaism when the destruction of the Temple put an end to the Essenes and Saducees, and when Christianity split off to become its own religion. Early Rabbinic Judaism did not develop out of "Saducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Zealots and Proselytes," it emerged out of the Pharisees. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, the Pharisees did not disappear - in contrast to all the other non-Christian groups. Str1977 ^(talk) 08:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, "emerged out of the Pharisees". Something historically different. That does not mean that there is no connection, it means only there has been a historical change. Wars bring historical change. The Roman-Jewish Wars were the end of Phariseeism. 75.14.219.163 (talk) 20:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

"The Roman-Jewish Wars were the end of Phariseeism."

Endlessly repearting it doesn't make it true! Str1977 ^(talk) 08:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Good, I think the article makes this clear right now. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Vassyana is being unconstructive again

Ok, what's wrong with this referenced block you deleted?:

Caesarea Maritima (which had been the Roman capital of Iudaea Province since its founding in 6 CE and later of the larger province of Syria Palaestina), became also the centre of Palestinian Christianity. The Great Sanhedrin of Judaism had earlier (before 70) been relocated from Jerusalem to Yavne.

75.15.196.164 (talk) 06:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The reference does not support the majority of claims in the paragraph. The overwhelming majority of sources only present Caesarea Maritima becoming a center of Christian study under Origen (such as this) and similarly do not say that the Sanhedrin moved before the destruction of Jerusalem, but rather note that Rabbi Yochanan established a school in Jamnia prior to the destruction and established a reconstructed Sanhedrin at his school after the destruction of Jerusalem. What was included in the article contradicts the general mainstream of scholarship, making some pretty extreme claims in context, without citing any sources to support those claims. --Vassyana (talk) 06:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how that justifies deleting the entire paragraph. You could have simply corrected the founding of the Sanhedrin to after 70 and requested a ref for the claim of Caesarea being a centre of Palestinian Christianity. Is that too much too ask? To assume good faith and to make a contribution to wikipedia, instead of just block deleting? 75.15.196.164 (talk) 07:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I did not make any statements implying a presumption of bad faith. Removing uncited poor information from an article is as important to ensuring the quality of Wikipedia as adding well-cited information. --Vassyana (talk) 07:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

V is right. In the paragraph V deleted, the cited material is not relevant, and the relevant material is not cited. Leadwind (talk) 04:53, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Did Paul found any churches himself?

Seems like an interesting topic, came up in the recent editing history. Should it be addressed in this article? 75.15.205.190 (talk) 20:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

In Romans 15 Paul states that he has so far proclaimed the "Gospel" in areas where Christ was already known, and that his ambition was to go to Spain so that he could proclaim the "Gospel" to people who hadn't yet heard of Christ, rather than build on someone else's foundation:

"...from Jerusalem and as far around as Illyricum I have fully proclaimed the good news of Christ. Thus I make it my ambition to proclaim the good news, not where Christ has already been named, so that I do not build on someone else’s foundation... But now, with no further place for me in these regions, I desire, as I have for many years, to come to you when I go to Spain."

"someone else's foundation" = pre-Pauline Churches. For example, even in Cyprus, that church was actually founded by Barnabas. Even near and in Rome, the church existed before Paul's visit there according to Acts 28:13–15 (the Epistle to the Romans doesn't make sense without a pre-existing Roman church). 75.15.199.90 (talk) 17:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Probably correct, but without an authoritative reference, it is speculation. ClemMcGann (talk) 17:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Is this sentence currently in the article really plausible?

"Those remaining fully faithful to Halacha became purely Jews, while those adhering to the Christian faith joined with Gentile, Graeco-Roman, Pauline Christianity."

How did this happen? Was there a Grand Inquisitor who forced everyone, both in and outside the Roman Empire, to either choose to follow Jesus (Christianity) or the Torah (Judaism) but not both under penalty of death? 75.15.201.67 (talk) 20:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Restorationism section

Does this section belong at all? If it does, it needs to be rewritten. I wonder also if it is mis-named? It appears to be about a protestant claim, more vigorously advanced in the 19th century, but with a longer history. Making the link to early Christianity within the article might be WP:FRINGE in the absence of references/citations? . --Fremte (talk) 17:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

See the article on Restorationism. 75.14.223.148 (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Adoptionism

Let us stop the personal attacks. Nobody is being disruptive. Please assume good faith. I for my part will take more care in making sure it is easy to verify my references. If you have a problem it is best to work it out on the talk page. Cheers - Ret.Prof (talk) 06:38, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Urban Myth

According to James Edwards, there never was a Gospel of the Ebionites. It appears that he is right for there is no surviving copy, it is not mentioned in any of the early church catalogs, nor does any Church Father mention it. Am I missing anything? - Ret.Prof (talk) 16:54, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

At least one Church Father does mention and quote from a Gospel of the Ebionites, I don't recall who that is. For that reason there is a collection of gospel fragments from an alleged gospel by that name. See also Jewish-Christian Gospels and Catholic Encyclopedia: Ebionites. 75.15.203.11 (talk) 17:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify: there are three Jewish-Christian Gospels, these are the Gospel of the Ebionites, the Gospel of the Nazarenes and the Gospel of the Hebrews. Fragments exist from all of these gospels, but not originals. These may or may not be actually the same gospel, some have postulated that these are all derived from an Aramaic Gospel of Matthew. 75.15.203.11 (talk) 17:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Bart Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture

Why was this citation deleted? - Ret.Prof (talk) 17:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)