Talk:English Defence League

edl website

It would seem according to the guardian [[1]] that there may be mor ethen one EDL website.Slatersteven (talk) 17:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

See my comments at the BNP article. This should be deleted --Snowded ^TALK 22:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Also see mine. Its sourced, and its from an RS. Moreover its quite clear from sources that there has been some kiind of falling out. Ther is a statment that the EDL have been (or that there was an attempt) Hijacked by BNP supporters. Moreover the EDL (and indead searchlight) have said that Mr Renton has no longer any offical connection with the EDL. Also hopenothate states tghat the website in quesation was taken down. Is there any evidacne that the curretn website has any connection to Mr Renton?Slatersteven (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Confused, mess and no reliable sources, time to delete --Snowded ^TALK 22:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about, Snowded? This is adaequately sourced. It is by its nature confused, but that doesn't make it unreportable. --FormerIP (talk) 00:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Agree with FormerIP. If a national newspaper isn't a RS what is?!  Francium12  02:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Its trivia, but lets have the discussion in one place, over to BNP --Snowded ^TALK 05:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

What is trivia, the link to the BNP or the fact that Mr Renton has been accused of trying to Hijack the EDL. Moreover the BNP seem to be claiming that the EDL is some kind of zionist consproacy to undermine them (I kid you not)[[2]].Slatersteven (talk) 14:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

"A Zionist false-flag operation". Wow, that's definitely notable. --FormerIP (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

See BNP talk page.Slatersteven (talk) 14:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

A zionist flase-falg operation claim is notable, no argument on that. A squabble over a web site, no. --Snowded ^TALK 13:31, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Given that this "A squabble over a web site" is the main evidance provided that there are links between the two groups it seems to me far from trivial. Its at the heart of the dispute between theee two groups.Slatersteven (talk) 13:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Then show me some more material on the subject, we have hardly anything that shows it was ever a real issue (beyond a mix up in the formation period), or much on any dispute. If its relevant, then it needs something more than the current, if the current is all there is then its trivial. --Snowded ^TALK 13:49, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Well we have this [[3]] it does not mention the website but does reference the attempts by the EDL to distance themselves from accusations of links to the BNP. Then the Guardian article [[4]] Talks about two websites. [[5]] says that it was taken down to conceal the link We have the time article [[6]] Which also reference two sites, and that one was taken down. Almost all of these reference the attempted Hijacking. So it is clear that the EDL (or an, depending on source) website was set up by a BNP member and when this was revealed it was removed. alo that there is a dispute over which website is the 'rea EDL' [[7]]Slatersteven (talk) 14:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

BLP violations removed

The BNP are not a reliable source for any claim about a third party per various policies such as WP:V and WP:BLP, and their views are also WP:FRINGE. I will avoid repeating the exact claims here, but the incredibly controversial claims that apply to the founders of the EDL are a massive violation of WP:BLP. As is usual with BLP removals, they do not get added back without consensus here. And before anyone asks, I've seen the thread asking if they are a reliable source and nowhere was it agreed they are a reliable source for the claims they are making about a third party, especially when policy says they are not. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:25, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

This is about an organisation not about one person. Two the BNP are RS for thier views (and this was quite clear that this was only thier accusation, it was fully attributed). Three this was discused on the RS page[[8]], this was about the BNP not EDL but the point remians that they are RS for thier views.Slatersteven (talk) 13:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I do think that material was valid, it was a direct reference to their statements, not a commentary on those statements. --Snowded ^TALK 14:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The EDL are not a living person and the material is reliably sourced in any case. You appear to feel quite strongly, though, so I would suggest posting on WP:BLP/N. --FormerIP (talk) 14:38, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

There are some fundamental misunderstandings of BLP here. BLP applies to organisations when they are founded, run and consist of a membership of living people, especially when the allegations apply to those people. Furthermore if someone believes it is a BLP violation, they are not required to post on BLP/N before removing the information, it is removed without discussion and not added back unless there is consensus that it is not a BLP violation.

It's probably my fault to some extent for not pointing out the exact problems there were, so here goes:

• Questionable sources "should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves . . . Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties"
• Red flags, "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources", "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community" and "Exceptional claims in Wikipedia require high-quality sources". Does a single reliable source actually agree with the BNP's view? Not that I can see, so in addition to being unreliably sourced it's also an extreme minority fringe view.
• Reliable sources for BLPs says "Material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used anywhere in the article".
• Self-published sources for BLPs says "Never use self-published books, zines, websites, forums, blogs or tweets as sources for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject". Just in case anyone wants to say The Star are reliable, read the section more. "Where a news organization publishes the opinions of a professional but claims no responsibility for the opinions, the writer of the cited piece should be attributed (e.g., "Jane Smith has suggested...")". Neither Nick Griffin or Simon Darby would meet the standard of "professional", as neither are professional political commentators or analysts.

The material is only sourced to the BNP who are an unreliable source for controversial claims about third parties, especially living ones. No reliable source is repeating these claims and giving them any credence, only attributing them to the BNP. These claims fail WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:FRINGE, and should not be added back to the article without clear consensus. If you want to start a new discussion that includes the points I've raised here go right ahead, but I don't need to start a discussion to remove this information and people who persist in adding it back until there is consensus for inclusion can be blocked from editing. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:45, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

No the material was also sourced from the daily star, as such the material was not soley sourced from the BNP. So they were reported (and commented on) by third party sources. Here is another source for it (are these unreliable?)[[9]]. RS does not mean a source has to agree with a view, just report it (or shall we go thru this article (and others) removing any material where a newspaper does not express an opinion as to the faculatiy of the material?).I would point out that the material removed (and the sources used) make no mention of any living person, they talk about the organisation, they do not name any one. Also the Star is not publishing Mr Grffins opinions its reporting on them. Mr Griffin is a profesional politican commenting on an organisation he has been accused of secretly being linked to, as has the party he leads, as such his views on this organisation are not fringe they are very pertinant.Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 22 December 2009 (UTC)Slatersteven (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

No, the Star was not the source of the allegations. Griffin and Darby are the source of the allegations. The Star did not say "The EDL etc etc", the Star said "Nick Griffin says the EDL etc etc" which is not the same. The allegations of extremists being reported in reliable sources does not make their allegations reliable. The Guardian is far more reliable than the Star, and they reported that according to David Icke a number of world leaders and other prominent people are reptilian, child-sacrificing paedophiles. The Guardian is a reliable source, David Icke isn't. Being quoted in a reliable source doesn't make the person being quoted a reliable source.

The BNP's denial of involvement with the EDL is already in the article, there is no need for Griffin's ZOGesque allegations to be included when they violate three policies. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:19, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

The Star was uused as a source for this article, as such its thye source we used. It does not matter where a claim origionates if its reported in RS tyhen they have reported it. The section you removed made it clear that these were Mr Griffins claims. The David Ike artcile does refer to reptilian, child-sacrificing paedophiles (well actauly ""seriously reptilian." All have taken part in Satanic rituals, paedophilia") so we do in fact quote loonies when they are an involved party. When an RS reports something we can use that. This does not breach any of Wiki's rules. It has been reported by an RS (well 2), it is by an involved party, and it was attributed to the person saying it (though this could be re-worded). In addition it puts both the the EDL/BNP relasionhship and Mr Griffins attitudes into perspective. This is not a denile of involvment this is a serious (if very silly) accusation that needs to be mentioned.Slatersteven (talk) 19:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

• Explicitly attributed to Griffin it probably does not inherently violate WP:BLP, since people can easily make up their own minds about Griffin's reliability as a source regarding a related organisation that casts his own politics in a bad light. However, we must also guard against WP:UNDUE. The sources are not good quality ones. If this was reported in the mainstream press then it would be easier to defend, but a blog and the Daily Star do not really cut it for me. The removed text is not something I'd want to see reinserted without much better sources for its significance. Guy (Help!) 20:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by "mainstream press", Guy? Do you mean to say "highbrow"? I tend to sympathise with this POV, but it is not policy.

The claim of WP:UNDUE does not hold water here, IMO, and your reasoning does not seem to me to be correct. Where something has been published, all else being equal, has no bearing on whether it is fringe etc or not. Something may fail WP:V because of where it has been published, but that is a different matter. In this case, there is no issue as to verifiability.

Nick Griffin is the UK's most prominent anti-muslim politician. God help us, he is actually an elected politician. His opinion about another anti-muslim politcal movement cannot possibly be considered WP:UNDUE. --FormerIP (talk) 02:59, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I mean press that rises above the level of toilet paper. The Daily Mail might just count, the Grauniad, Telegraph, Independent or Times are acceptable, BBC News is good. A story that's only covered by one tabloid is not, I think, a significant story, and what one bigot thinks about another bunch of bigots is not significant unless it gains significant coverage in publications known for their good judgement of what is and is not significant. I call WP:UNDUE here in the absence of more and better sources. Guy (Help!) 09:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

David Icke's comments linked above are widely, widely reported. Are you suggesting I can add Icke's views to Prince Philip's article? Surely the whole point about WP:FRINGE is how accepted a viewpoint is, not how widely reported it is? There's also the "Questionable Sources" part of WP:V, which says they are unacceptable for making claims about third parties. When a particular person is making a claim or allegation, the question is how reliable that person is not how reliable the source reporting the claim is, especially (as in the case of The Star) when they say the person making the claim is "bonkers" and that it's a "loony conspiracy". 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:18, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

One Night in Hackney: when you set up a discussion thread it would be helpful if you described the content you are removing. I do not see any problems with quoting the BNP here. We are not treating the BNP as an authority on EDL. Rather we are reporting what BNP says about EDL, viz., that EDL is not associated with BNP and that it is a false-flag operation. We are not implying that these statements are true. The Four Deuces (talk) 11:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Erm, wrong as wrong can be. The whole point of removing BLP violating material is that it is removed from Wikipedia as a whole. Therefore moving it from the article to the talk page defeats the object. Also try reading the source properly, you will find if it had been cited accurately in the first place that the allegations go beyond the EDL. Questionable sources such as the BNP cannot be used for allegations about third parties, it's right there in black and white in WP:V. Does anyone actually hold this viewpoints other than Griffin and Darby and the rest of the BNP? If not, it's a fringe view. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Which has been reported in RS, the BNP is not the source (I will ask you again is Stopthehate blog RS or not?). Moreover this page is about the EDL not anyone else, so there is no need or requirment) to include material about any one else. Nor is it a fringe view, minority perhaps, but not fringe. After all he has been accused of links to the EDL, so hi8s views on it are very significant. As I said if his views o9n the EDL are fringe so are his (and his parties) links to it. You can't have it both ways. you can't have his links to the group being notable but his views on it not being notable.Slatersteven (talk) 15:42, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Not sure about this, but it does mention the quoted material [[10]]. Also Mr Ike had not been linked as a member of the Royal family by any RS. If he had (and this was a commonley accepted acccusation in mainstream RS) then his views on the Royal family would be notable. But he has no links to either the Royal family or the Duke of Edinburgh, as such his views are fringe in that respect. Mr Griffin has beenh linke dby RS the the EDL.Slatersteven (talk) 16:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC) As no one has objected to hte new source I will re-insert the material usinig the new source as well.Slatersteven (talk) 19:19, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I shall ask again does any one object to this new source?Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

BNP links and smearing

This article does not come up to Wikipedias usual high standard. Unfortunately, it would take too long to deal with all the errors thru the proper process. That is a fundamental problem in Wikipedia, that if a bad starting entry gets in, then its practically impossible to correct all of it, so the defective entry will stay. Here's just three in one small section.

Smear 1: "the EDL website was developed by Chris Renton, a British National Party activist." Well I have seen a copy of the official letter from the BNP stating that Chris Renton is no longer a member, so what's that about? And if he was an activist (not just a member), then what verifiable 'activities' can we point to? It reminds me of the quote "Don't try confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up!"

Smear 2: "In September 2009 the BNP officially declared the EDL a proscribed organisation, and made it a disciplinary offence for any BNP member to be involved with the EDL.[16] Searchlight has said that proscription is BNP standard practice when attempting to establish 'deniability'.[7]" Even Stalin did better propaganda than this! If Searchlight has said it, it must be worth quoting, yes?

So lets see, a woman is brutally raped by 4 men who say in their defence that she 'came on to them' and was wearing 'seductive clothing'. In response the woman reminded the court that even neighbours and passers-by heard her screaming "Stop! Leave me alone! Someone help me please! Call the Police!". She confirmed to the court the police report which shows she was wearing low heel shoes and a skirt which came to just below the knee at the time of the attack.

However, Searchlight has said that this type of denial is standard practice when an 'alleged rape victim' is attempting to disprove culpability or complicity in the sexual intercourse which took place. Such is the logic behind Searchlights attempt to smear the 'proscription' action. If the BNP endorse EDL they're guilty. And if they reject EDL they're guilty too! Those intellectual goliaths running Searchlight should really dig out their witch dunking stools and start the inquisition again, to free us all from such heresy!

Smear 3: Finally, as a general point of logic and balance, is it a good idea for Wikipedia to take such a lot of input from an organisation X (Searchlight), which is an avowed enemy of organisation Y (EDL)? I know there is this attempt to quote from 3rd party sources, but, lets at least have the semblance of balance shall we? AA747 (talk) 05:13, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The question of Searchlight as a reliable source has been discussed elsewhere and its use accepted. You need to pick up on that discussion if you want changes. As it is any article on the far right will contain Searchlight material as that is one of the main research entities in the field. That covers Smear 3. Your smear 2 is a balanced entry, it reports the BNP proscription, but also reports a counter position and in any case it is based on the same anti-Searchlight proposition as your other material. Smear 1 is more interesting. As far as I can see there were various land grabs on EDL from the far right and this appears to have been one. Its notable but the language needs improvement and more citation --Snowded ^TALK 07:33, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

(sorry if this is in the wrong place, this is my first time reply)

Smear 2 - For someone interested in complexity theory, you seem pretty happy to burden this topic with unnecessary complexity and obscurity. This is going to be a long and tedious discussion because you are forcing me to revert to first principles, as you pursue your personal political agendas.

The Searchlight statement is NOT a counter position. The allegation is that "The BNP supports the EDL". Their statement merely attempts to reinforce that allegation. Yes, their statement is a counter to the statement made by the BNP in refutation but please, this is tedious. All the 3rd party quotes (WP:truth) you are allowing here are supportive of one side.

Furthermore, their allegation is illogical, its a version of the witch dunking theory, they are guilty whatever they do or say, the 'fairness' of which I demonstrate by the rape victim example. By behaving in this way and quoting statements which do not allow of a sensible interpretation, you give the impression that you are doing all you can to support the left wing agenda, instead of trying to give the reader a balanced quick assessment of what's going on 'out there'. You can clearly support whichever point of view you wish by selective quoting.

If you really wish to quote that Searchlight statement, then it would be more rational to state: "Searchlight has said that proscription is BNP standard practice when attempting to establish 'deniability'.[7] Searchlight did not clarify by what means, in principle, ANY organisation can establish deniability of ANY given claim." Otherwise, how is the reader supposed to understand that statement? I don't see how they can deny anything, according to this framework? The rape victim can't deny being raped - thats a ploy. The BNP can't deny involvement - thats a ploy. And if there is no method of denying an allegation, then at best, that Searchlight quote is an irritating tautology.

At the moment it reads like this: 'The BNP denied involvement. But Searchlight says they are still guilty, and we like that statement so we are quoting it here, even though it doesn't add any facts to the discussion or even make logical sense. There is simply NO WAY the BNP could deny involvement in any of these allegations, they are just guilty. Deal with it.'

So, your next objection is to assert that 'The BNP assertion being a ploy is a reasonable possibility in this circumstance, therefore we quote the Searchlight warning on this'. Yes, and how convenient for you :-)

However, that possibility is a possibility of ANY assertion of ANY group or person. So will you now go thru Wikipedia and allow to be placed a warning against ALL assertions from every person or group, that that statement is a lying ploy? Of course, one has to find the media quotes, but I'm sure that's possible for the majority of the assertions.

And once we've posted 100,000 of these quoted warnings (from whatever source) denying 100,000 denials or assertions, will Wikipedia be any more informative?

AA747 (talk) 06:12, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Searchlight is considered a reliable source and is frequently used as a source for articles about the far right because it writes extensively about them. Please read the essay WP:Truth which explains how Wikipedia articles like this one are written. The Four Deuces (talk) 07:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

You are not responding to the point I am making. I am not denying the validity of Searchlight as a source, I agree with its use as a source, it has validity (for the reader) whether it is 'true' or not. I am saying that Searchlight is being used too often in this case. There has to be a balance. This is not about truth, this is about helping the reader. It does not help the reader gain a balanced view when you even push the boat out to having nonsensical quotes from Searchlight, because you love it so much.

AA747 (talk) 06:12, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Searchlight is not used because we "love it so much" but because it is a reliable source and provides more extensive coverage on the far right than other publications. It is also often used as a source for articles that appear in the major broadsheets. If you have reliably sourced material from other publications you think should be included then it would be helpful if you would provide it. It may be that the mainstream media treats EDL unfairly, but there is nothing that we can do to redress that problem here, since these articles reflect what is written in reliable sources. The only possilbe redress is either to persuade the media to change their reporting of EDL or to persuade WP to change its criteria for reliable sources. The Four Deuces (talk) 07:53, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

"If you have reliably sourced material from other publications you think should be included then it would be helpful if you would provide it." Fair enough. There seems to be a bit of a gap in the market/coverage in the UK, but I'll do my best.

  AA747 (talk) 03:11, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not a grotty thiing I am a police

Why is the police community hand out not RS?Slatersteven (talk) 20:09, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: The Political Stance of EDL. Are they really far right?

From the article, it says that the EDL has a right-wing stance. It's obvious that they ARE right-wing, but could one really say they have a far-right position? From what can be seen, it is near-impossible to tell if the EDL have a stance like that of the BNP (racist, religiously prejudiced, etc.). I know a few fringe members are BNP ex-members but that's all we really know, isn't it? So my point is that the ONLY thing definite about the EDL is their opposition to Islamic extremism -- whether they are opposed to Muslims in general is something else and too ambiguous too tell.

In short, if the only thing we know about them for definite is their opposition to Islamic extremism, can we really call them far-right, based on that fact alone? Many people from all across the political spectrum feel opposition to Islamic extremism. after all. Personally, I don't think we can tar them with the same brush as the BNP (the term "far-right" often is used as a label for racially prejudiced (or in this case, religiously prejudiced) bigots)?

Just a minor point I felt needs to be discussed and cleared up.

Cheers

86.185.71.129 (talk) 18:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC) Sentreh

We go with what the sources say rather than do our own analysis. See WP:Verifiability. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:01, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

And who/what are the sources? Left wing journalists and newspapers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.123.101 (talk) 19:34, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Im not associated with the EDL or any other group (in fact Im a member of the Liberal democrats). I do feel however, that this article which has been locked to prevent editing, is very one sided and I would utterly dispute its neutrality. it is more opiniated than informational. It starts by stating the EDL is a 'far right political group' and there are more facts to suggest they are not. The article seems to concentrate on anti EDL sentiment rather than explanation or information. also the rather sleezy mention of 'many of whom had been drinking', as this is not substantiated by any clear facts.

This article should be challenged on the grounds of bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.254.227 (talk) 01:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

This article shows clear bias. It states as fact what is at best an assertion i.e. "far-right". The EDL itself says "We set out our stall very early on, we are not racist, we don’t like Nazis, we don’t want Nazis joining our demos. We embrace patriotism as something that transcends race, religion, creed and colour." http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=124:who-are-the-edl-exposing-the-myth&catid=42:feature-stories&Itemid=56 It would be nice to see some evidence to support the contrary view held by the editor of the current Wiki entry. --Flexdream (talk) 20:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The sources for this page are demented. I thought the whole point of Wikipedia was to create a source of accurate and unbiased information? If so, why is it that the vast majority of sources are left wing? The Guardian is a left wing paper that plays to its readers with little concern for the truth or facts. The BBC is essentially the broadcast version of the Guardian. An example of bias today is the BBC using a headline on its website for a video: "EDL protesters clash with police", and then the video contains scenes of the police dealing with UAF protesters. Under that headline it says "police have arrested more than 50 demonstrators...", but the truth is out of the 67 arrests, 55 of those were UAF thugs. But the BBC doesn't see fit to inform its readers of this fact. Why? Well, the BBC is a left wing organisation, so it isn't likely to go for honesty when it can go for spin. Using the label far-right for a group that is a non political single issue group is a complete and total nonsense. How can it possibly be far-right simply for opposing violent extremists? Whether some of its members are racist or not has nothing to do with it. For one thing, racism is neither left nor right, it is simply racism, and for another thing, the aim of the group is NOT racist. Taking issue with the actual aim of the group because of the personal traits of some, or even all of its members is a logical fallacy; Ad Hominem. The left wing organisation calling the EDL far-right does not make it so. Who ever has the authority to sort this intellectual vandalism out, please do so, and get on with it. --86.182.141.84 (talk) 23:58, 20 March 2010 (UTC)