Talk:Larry C. Johnson

Anon user POV-pushing

Anonymous user User:65.87.105.2 has been very active on the Plame-related articles pushing a certain POV defending Novak and the Administration. The material he inserted without comment is part of his POV-campaign. It is refuted (or at least put into proper context) here and here, among other places. I just wanted these links available to anyone who wants to deal with this, in case I don't get to it. :)--csloat 01:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC) I want to add that he is a registered Republican and a Bush supporter until recently[1]; this is not just propaganda, as the anon user's edits imply.-csloat 23:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

POV-pushing by Ombudsman

This has been discussed already; please see above for the cite. The bullshit that Johnson only "claimed" he was a registered republican is a bogus attempt to poison the well.--csloat 19:45, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Johnson said he supported Bush, but there is no evidence that he supported Bush other than his post-election statement. There was no pre-election endorsement for Bush even though Johnson could publish his columns in the NY Times and he appeared on numerous television news shows. Johnson gave no money to Bush, although Bush raised hundreds of millions of dollars from other donors. Johnson didn't volunteer for the Bush campaign, even though the Bush campaign headquarters was within a mile of his DC office. Of course we don't have a photo of him voting in the voting booth. So when Johnson says he previously supported Bush while presently denouncing him, we can only write that "he said he supported Bush." We have no 3rd party authentication for his claim of support, and his motive for lying is high: it gives him more credibility as a critic if he was a former suporter. I will now reinsert that line as previosly written. If you have a source to authenticate his claim, please add your cite. Good day! P.S. Who is ombudsman?--24.55.228.56 22:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

What evidence do you have disputing that he voted for Bush? The article cited above says it quite clearly; it is not just "he says," and you offer no intelligent reason to doubt it. There is nobody on earth that has published anything suggesting that the facts are any different than this; your insertion of this is just to raise doubt where there is no reason for it. Should we say also that George W Bush only says he is a Republican? or a Christian? Come on. The source is right there, I will put it in since you are so anal about this ludicrous point. Happy new year.--csloat 22:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

PS I want to add that your logic is internally contradictory. You claim that Johnson is lying about voting for Bush in order to enhance his credibility - yet it is clear throughout the article that he thinks Bush is absolutely wrong about the war -- why would he think it would enhance his credibility to admit that he used to support a President whom he thinks is wrong (and in fact, a liar and a traitor)? In any case, the speculation that Johnson might be lying about this is not supported in any published source; it is not up to wikipedia editors to publish such conjecture.--csloat 23:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

You have got to be kidding. But because kids read these things, I will explain it to you anyway. If Johnson previously supported Bush, then he cannot be dismissed as just another left-wing anti-Bush wacko when he criticizes the Bush administration on the Plame matter. So when he says he was a supporter of Bush while criticizing the Bush administration in the same breath, it sounds suspicious. If Johnson truly supported Bush, where is the paper trail? Why didn't he donate to, volunteer for, or endorse the campaign? Apparently, when you write that Johnson supported Bush, you mean that he voted for Bush. Since Americans vote via secret ballot, it can never be proven how he voted. So that's why this article will say that he said he voted for President Bush in 2000. Good day! --24.55.228.56 01:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

First off, the third party confirmation that Johnson supported Bush is in the article. But let's follow your logic -- where is Johnson's passport or photocopy of his driver's license? How do we know that is really his name? Shouldn't we change this article to The person who claims to go by the name Larry C. Johnson? You're making ludicrous charges. Lots of people who supported Bush did not contribute money. And your credibility argument is just ludicrous. If "it sounds suspicious" that he changed his impression of Bush after the war started, doesn't that hurt his credibility rather than help it? Again, you are totally contradicting yourself in your crusade to tarnish this person's credibility. Until you cite a source that actually questions his credibility on that issue, your questioning of it is original research.--csloat 01:34, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Why are you trying to smear Johnson?

I have no objection to legitimate criticism of Johnson on this page, but the smears that this anon user keeps posting simply do not belong here. This is not the place to speculate that he might be lying about facts that nobody else contests. There is no reason to add "he claims" to his support of Bush or to other claims that went uncontested during his sworn testimony. There is also no reason to give so much space to the whine that Johnson looked at the world with a pre-911 mindset -- before September 11th. Such claims are thrown in here only to impugn his credibility, and they do not add anything to the encyclopedia. They also don't make any sense - we've established above that there is no logic to the claim that Johnson would lie about formerly supporting Bush, and the whine about his pre-911 mindset is just idiotic, and he answers it clearly. There is no need for so many paragraphs on it at all, but if it's going to be put in here, it must be put in the context that it actually became an issue - that is, the context of a conservative smear campaign.--csloat 02:50, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

On Hatch - Hatch reads the papers like everyone else. Such a significant claim would not go unnoticed by the conservative media if it were false. Even the Weekly Standard has not published anything challenging this claim. The only reason you keep doing this is because you want people to view Johnson as some kind of liar, yet you can't find a single source to back up your BS. Please knock it off; Wikipedia is not your personal soapbox. If you think Johnson is a liar, write an article about it, get it published, and maybe it will get picked up by the mainstream media -- in which case then there might be a reason for someone to include this silliness in wikipedia.--csloat 03:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

No one is smearing Johnson and I resent the accusation. I am simply trying to maintain NPOV in the article. Your suggestion that too much is being made of his pre-9/11 column downplaying the risk of terrorism is pure POV. He held himself out as an international expert on intelligence and security and yet he was 100% wrong on the threat the US faced. That's pretty significant. csloat, you are a well-known POV pusher, esp. on issues related to Iraq (e.g., Iraqi insurgency, Saddam Hussein, and al Qaeda. Your m.o. is to accuse others of POV pushing while repeatedly reverting their edits.[2] I won't be pushed around by a POV bully.--24.55.228.56 03:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

You are smearing Johnson; there is no other reason to add qualifiers to sentences that are not contested by anyone in the world. Actually, when the article is read in context, he is not 100% wrong, but that is neither here nor there. The fact is I am not resisting this information being put in the article at all; I am simply stating that it is not that big a deal -- everyone had a pre-911 mindset before 911, and the few who didn't - like Clarke, Scheuer - were seen as paranoid. The only reason Johnson's pre-911 views have been made an issue is to make a nonsensical smear against him. I am not pushing you around; I am trying to keep the article useful and relevant and free of idiotic statements and right wing propaganda.

As far as his expertise goes, please point to a single source actually questioning his expertise. Something other than innuendo based on something he wrote before 911. There is no need for personal attacks; I am not a "bully." If you are not trying to smear Johnson, why is it you insist on implying that he is a liar by putting qualifiers in every statement, when those statements are not contested by anyone on earth?--csloat 03:23, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW - If anyone doubts that you are a POV pusher, they can read your blog remarks on Larry C. Johnson and the Plame affair here: http://www.shockandblog.com/blog/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=14 After reading it, no one will be surprised by your repeated POV edits here.--24.55.228.56 03:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I never claimed not to have a POV; but I am not interested in pushing it on Wikipedia. What I write on a blog and what I write in Wikipedia have different goals. I'm sure you are capable of understanding that.--csloat 03:26, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh sure, it's just a coincidence that your Blog and your editing here have similar POV (anti-Bush, anti-Republican, anti-Iraq War, pro-Larry Johnson). LOL! (BTW - I love the Plamegate poll!)[3] If you have strong opinions about an issue or a person, it's probably best if you refrain from editing articles about them. --24.55.228.56 03:48, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

That's advice I see you won't take. Of course, since you are afraid to get an account here and edit under a pseudonym, I can't call you out on your POV by pointing to a blog. But I can point to your edits, which have been relentlessly singleminded. Whereas anyone who looks at my edit history can see that I am not pushing a particular POV but putting in information that I have some knowledge or expertise about. As I said above, the goal of writing on a blog and the goal of editing an encyclopedia are two different ones.--csloat 04:00, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Csloat reversion

I am reverting recent edits by anon ip because (1) he changed the pre-911 section to eliminate the context of why this became an issue. This is all garbage - part of a right-wing smear campaign led by the Weakly standard. I mean really, this whole point is that Johnson had a pre-9/11 mindset ... before 9/11. But I'm not deleting this section, even though I think it should be deleted; I am simply keeping it in context, which is that Johnson's pre-9/11 column was not a significant issue until he came out against the war and it was then brought up in the weakly standard. (2) I am deleting the added quote because it is totally misleading -- read the rest of the article it is from rather than cherry picking the one sentence that seems to support the opposite side. The very paragraph that your quote is from also says "According to Central Intelligence Agency data, there is no credible evidence implicating Iraq in any mass casualty terrorist attacks since 1991." He also concludes that any connections between Iraq and transnational terrorists (eg al Qaeda) were attempts to respond to the coming US invasion: "Nonetheless, it is important to understand that Iraqi entreaties to Al Qaeda, are most likely intended as a tactic to bolster Iraq’s ability to fight off a U.S. invasion rather than a deep-seated theological and ideological commitment to the terrorist agenda of Bin Laden." And of course the paper concludes that a US invasion will massively increase Iraqi terrorism (a prediction which turned out to be totally accurate). I think it is better to just delete the quote rather than add all this context.--csloat 19:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Commodore Sloat, well known POV warrior and blogger, wants people to believe that Johnson's misguided column in the NYT was first criticized by conservatives in the Weekly Standard years after it was published. In fact, a liberal publication, Slate magazine, criticized the column two weeks after it was published. That reference goes back in. Also, Sloat has added voluminous quotes in the article in an illfated attempt to make Johnson more understandable. The quote I added goes back in and the other quotes will be trimmed back to normal size.--24.55.228.56 00:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Slate is not a partisan magazine that I know of. Please stop the name-calling and address the arguments; it is getting tedious to have to refute smears from an anonymous user who berates me until he loses the argument and then disappears beneath a stack of Weekly Standards until he can figure out a new way to smear Johnson on an encyclopedia. The Slate column was not notable until after it was revived by right wing pundits, and that is a fact. As far as the quotes go, you are selectively quoting in order to mischaracterize Johnson's views - I would rather delete them completely but since you insist on them, I will insist that they reflect his claims accurately - if that means extending them, that is what we will do. Taking things out of context in order to promote your POV is petty and has no place in an encyclopedia.-csloat 00:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It is not "name calling" to speak the truth. You are, in fact, a left-wing POV bully and blogger with strong pro-Larry Johnson views on the Plame Affair. People can read your blog here and judge for themselves: here: http://www.shockandblog.com/blog/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=14 You have attempted to spin, twist, and cherry pick facts in Wikipedia so that it adheres to your POV. Regarding Slate Magazine, it was founded by Michael Kinsley, the liberal side of Crossfire, published by the Washington Post and edited by Jacob Weisberg. That might not be liberal from your POV perspective, but it would be for the rest of America. As for being anonymous, I can find no listing in my phone directory for a "Commodore Sloat." Good day!--24.55.228.56 01:11, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

This is deja vu. I have responded to your name-calling about my blog already; it is just not relevant here. Slate is not a partisan source - it may have been founded by liberals but that is not the same as the Nation or the Weekly Standard which are openly partisan sources - my comment was not about how its founders vote, which is irrelevant. I don't care if you want to be anonymous - I am just getting tired of responding to your name-calling and such. Your edits are openly mendacious -- you take quotes out of context to make it appear as if he is saying something different. I don't mind anyone anonymously editing if they do so with truth as their goal; that does not seem to be the case with your edits. In any case, I see you are granting the rest of my points about these edits, so please stop reverting. I've tried to address your concerns by trimming the quote section and building the information there into the body of the page. Hopefully we can improve the article, not get in little fights about whose territory it is.--csloat 01:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Stop the POV Pushing

Larry Johnson is an obscure anti-Iraq War activist known for two things:

1. He wrote a column two months prior to the 9/11 attacks, in which he argued that the US had little to fear from terrorism, titled The Declining Terrorist Threat. Since he holds himself out as a terrorism expert, this column is a significant embarrassment.

2. He attempted to insert himself into the Valerie Plame scandal by asserting that Plame was an "undercover" CIA agent when named by Robert Novak in 2003."[4] However, since Johnson had himself left he CIA in 1989, there is no way he could know Plame's CIA status from 1990 to 2003. His assertion calls into question his credibility on other topics.

The attempt here to puff up Johnson as a hero, a victim, or as a someone who accurately predicted terrorist acts is pure POV. I will continue to correct it and revert it when appropriate. --24.55.228.56 03:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

He was never known for #1 until after #2 when he testified to the Senate special committee. Plame's CIA status is obvious because as I said above the CIA is the only entity in a position to tell anyone her status, and the CIA made it clear. Nobody has puffed Johnson into a hero or victim - show me those words on the page please and we can deal with such issues. All I am doing is showing the contexts for the various quotes you pull out of context. You have not responded to my arguments about this above.--csloat 04:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean he wasn't known for no. 1 until after he testified before the democratic senators in 2005? He was criticized by Slate Magazine, a national news source, just 10 days after 9/11 on September 21, 2001.[5] That was 3 1/2 years before his testimony! This is an example of your attempt to paint Johnson as a victim of a right-wing cabal. It is simply not true. As for the CIA making Plame's status clear, that is an outright lie. Cite that claim. The CIA has never discussed whether Plame was a covert agent when Robert Novak published his column. You are making up facts to suit your POV.--24.55.228.56 05:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)