Talk:Relativism

I think the paragraphs at the end of the article that deal with arguments against relativism need to be cleaned up. I'll try to do a little to improve the cohesiveness and general writing, but I don't know enough about it to do an overhaul.--Tubby 17:07, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

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"Followers of Ayn Rand claim the term "Objectivism" to describe her philosophy of maximizing individual capital at expense of all others - on the grounds that all good comes from trusting the productive, creative and free person." - I'm not sure this statement as it stands is relevant, and this whole paragraph doesn't quite make sense.--ArcticFrog 16:06, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It is absurd to accuse Rand of advocating pursuing one's interests at the expense of others. She was the foremost philosophical advocate of human rights, and that is universally known to those who have cared to acquaint themselves with her philosophical positions. She held that in normal social contexts people's interests do not conflict with each other; that the appearance that they do resulted from their having an unenlightened view of where their interests lie. Moreover, she held relativism to be profoundly evil, and said so many times in her writings. Therefore, to proffer her as an example of an advocate of relativism is absurd. Michael Hardy 00:05, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The "foremost philosophical advocate of human rights"? You must be joking. If Ayn Rand can be said to have been the "foremost advocate" of anything, then she was certainly the foremost advocate of ethical egoism. And she did advocate pursuing one's interests at the expense of others - as long as no "use of physical force" is involved. In Rand's philosophy, it is perfectly good and moral to extract the maximum possible profit from a suffering, dying man who begs you to save his life. Furthermore, she was outright fanatical in her support for SOME human rights, while completely denying the validity of others. Ultimately, the only right truly supported by Rand is private property - and she takes it to its logical extreme, to a point where private property is held as an absolute law that must be enforced no matter the consequences. Quite simply, if Ayn Rand had the choice between depriving one man of his property and allowing the destruction of all Mankind, she would allow the destruction of all Mankind - and argue that the other choice was "immoral". I'm afraid that's not support for human rights, my friend. That is insanity. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 22:31, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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I removed this ungrammatical definition:

and can be according to linguist George Lakoff in his book "Metaphors We Live By", is the rejection of subjectivism and objectivism both, to focus on the relationship between, i.e. the metaphor by which we relate our current experience to our previous experience.

(by the way, the book is by Lakoff AND Mark Johnson). I do not understand this definition, I do not believe it is Lakoff's definition (page reference, please?), and I do not think it is a useful definition.

Lakoff and Johnson are indeed proposing that the importance of metaphors, which unite both reason and imagination, do provide an alternative to subjectivism and objectivism. And their approach is absolutely consistent with the notion of relativism. But it is not identical to relativism. SR

This totally reminds me of Alfred Korzybski and General Semantics / Science and Sanity, or even Ludwig Wittgenstein. -- zuzu

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I have removed the following paragraph, because it doesn't make sense and I do not think it adds anything useful. If some thinks it might be able to add something useful, I encourage them to rewrite it so that it is clear, and then put it back in:

One summary of the argument for relativism is that our own cognitive bias prevents us from being fair as a "subject" observing anything with our own senses, and a notation bias will apply to what we are told exists anywhere outside these senses. Accordingly, we are left with a culture bias shared with other trusted observers, and can never expect to completely escape that in our lifetimes. Skeptics argue that subjective certainty and concrete objects and causes are part of our everyday life, and that there is no great value in discarding such useful ideas as isomorphism, objectivity and a final truth.

Problems:

• "one summary" is poor style (unless it will be folled by an "other" summary with some explanation as to why some people might prefer one summary over the other. More importantly, I do not think there is just one argument for relativism (of which this is a summary). I believe there are many arguments. Better than this paragraph would be someone, a philosopher or anthropologist, providing us with the x number of arguments out there, and locating them historically and institutionally (for example, I know Wittgenstein in effect provides an argument; is his really one form of someone else's argument? Is it an important argument? These are all things a good article would explain)

• "cognitive bias." On the one hand, this is too narrow; why just cognitive? Aren't there important affective biases as well? Why emphasize cognitive

• "cognitive bias." On the other hand, this is too broad. Isn't cognitive bias just the same thing as empistemological subjectivism? This isn't an argumen FOR relativism, it is just naming things that are "not relativism" An example of something that is not relativism is not in itself an argument for relativism.

• I have no idea what "notation bias" is, and I suspect many others do not know as well. But more disturbingly, I have read some philosophy and anthropology -- I have read people who argued FOR "relativism" -- and have not heard anyone use it. A "summary" of an argument for relativism should tell us whose argument this is and explain to us the language that he or she uses, not just throw it at us.

• "Accordingly, we are left with" not only makes no sense at all, it undermines whatever sense the previous sentence may have had. The first paragraph suggests that anthropologists and philosophers mean different things by relativists. A philosopher friend of mine told me (without going into detail) that there are various theories of relativism. But this sentence magically seems to link three kinds of bias, cognitive, notational and cultural. Are these three things always linked? The word "accordningly" just doesn't seem to be used correctly here. It suggest a logical link and I see no logical connection. It suggests some sort of determinism and I see nothing in the previous sentence that necessarily leads to this sentence. The word "accordingly just throws me for a loop.

• "we are left with" something only after something else has been taken away. But nothing in the previous sentence takes anything away. Again, this just makes no sense to me. I am not even sure what the author is trying to say.

• What the paragraph seems to do so far is say that there may be epistemological and cultural reasons for bias. It seems to suggest some connection between the two, but I know few people who would say this. In any event, this is not an argument for relativism. It is a description of reasons for non-relativism. Whatever the author thinks the word "argument" means -- not just for philosophers but just in plain English -- I do not think it is this.

• "Skeptics..." seems to introduce an argument against relativism and as such should have its own paragraph. But, for the same reasons as above I don't see any value in this sentence; it is uninformative and unclear, simply stringing togetehr jargon without explanation.

• "Skeptics" introduces an especially useulss and counterproductive element to an encyclopedia article. When reading an article on relativism I am glad to find a section on criticisms of it. But the vague word "skeptics" is next to useless. Within anthropology, are there many non-relativist approaches? What are the major ones? Who are they identified with? Why do they reject relativism? Ditto for Philosophy.

• Finally, this "argument" against relativism doesn't seem like much of an argument. If I understand it (and again, given the unclear prose I readily admit I may be misunderstanding it) it seems to be saying that some people do believe that knowledge is subjective but do not care. Although i am sure that there are people like this, I would not label this approach "skeptical." Moreover, I hardly believe it does justice to the various arguments within anthropology and philosophy against relativism, which are more sophisticated, by far, than this.

I cannot tell whether the author if this paragraph is a relativist or an anti-relativist. The poor language seems to make a mockery of both relativists and anti-relativists! But ultimately I do not care whether the person is for or against relativism. i just want to read an article that is well-written and informative and this paragraph is a huge distraction, SR

I think I get the 'gist' of it, so here is the paragraph again, with better (?) wording:

One argument for relativism is that our own cognitive bias prevents us from observing something objectively with our own senses, and notational bias will apply to whatever allegedly can be measured without using our senses. In addition, we have a culture bias shared with other trusted observers, which cannot be eliminated. A counterargument to this is that subjective certainty and concrete objects and causes are part of our everyday life, and that there is no great value in discarding such useful ideas as isomorphism, objectivity and a final truth.

For the last part, I think the counterargument recognizes the subjective nature of knowledge, but at the same time, the subjective nature of knowledge falls apart without concepts of objectivity. I hope I made it clearer. Wikiwikifast 04:40, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

cultural relativity

Cultural relativity is the idea that each culture, and its practices, should be evaluated on independent merits and not necessarily seen as being "better" or "worse" than another one. It's an interesting and controversial topic and it's not currently covered as a separate entry in the wikipedia. Should it forward to this entry? Should it be a new entry? It seems to me like it could be covered here, but I'm not expert on the subject, just interested.

NPOV

The so-called npov edit on 14:00, 9 Jan 2005 made the article less philosophically rigorous. I suggest going back to the version as of 16:49, 24 Dec 2004.

Relativism and too much emphasis on Catholicism?

A couple of comments here--

the role of modern cultural anthropology, philosophy and cultural relativism should definitely be expanded upon. It is true that relativism is a methodological stance but behind it there are commonly held notions within the profession that human culture differs through space and time (i.e., that there are different "cultures" that may serve as objects for investigation) and that this differentiation goes deeper than a superficial veneer of "culture" or custom on top of an undifferentiated human nature. Arguments such as those put forth by thinkers as diverse as Donna Haraway and Bruno Latour question the unity of human nature proposed by modernism (cf. Latour's We Have Never Been Modern). What arguments do generally count in the profession as statements concerning human capacities (linguistic and semiotic) and of humans as social beings are generally quite far from Thomistic or Stoic conceptions of natural law (and of the "possibility" of cultures "deviating" from natural law, such as in the case of cultures who are not as profoundly homophobic as are some in the West).

I am not sure why so much space in this revised article is devoted to papal anxieties about "relativism" and how "relativism" supposedly leads to totalitarianism--relativism as used here by the Holy Fathers seems to be taking the place both of arguments concerning the diversity of human being-in-the-world and the subjective and individualistic moral "if it feels good..." within Western cultures. Subjectivism in this individualistic sense is not the same as cultural relativism. In fact, Pope Benedict VXI´s previous discussions as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (ex-Inquisition) concerning how cultures can be "purged" of their "non-Christian" elements is a form of Christian totalitarianism (and no culture to date, not even the core cultures of Christiandom have been effectively "purged" of those elements). I'll bet my Easter bunny basket on that.

The questions within Christendom of how missionaries "recognize" the signs of (un)acceptable local practices or how they believe the natives are "confused" about the way the world is deserve further scholarly study as in the work of Webb Keane concerning missionaries in Indonesia. At the very least, these sections concerning the papal arguments should be condensed out of consideration for NPOV. Sorry, fellow Catholics, the point of view of the Magisterium is a POV, even if it is one to which we must assent or at least not publicly deviate, and you are commended for including Catholic POV. Is this too much relativism? There must also be responses to Aquinean rationalist concerns for "non-contradiction" included in the article--such as an appreciation for the role of contradiction in human affairs. Aquinean semotics (accidents and essences in his discussion of the Eucharist, inter alia) is an example of the desire to resolve a paradox by more than appeal to unshakeable dogma. Tiger68914 15:47, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

The Catholic Church and relativism

I changed the following:

According to the Church and some philosophers, denying that there is absolute truth (the natural law and Church revealed truths are not my truth; my truth depends on what I feel), relativism leads to moral license and a denial of the possibility of sin and of God (if it not true that this is wrong according to what I think is right and wrong, then I can do it).

There's no need for the parenthetic sidebars.

According to the Church and some philosophers, relativism, as a denial of absolute truth, leads to moral license and a denial of the possibility of sin and of God.

Bookandcoffee 04:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Could we have anything more on philosophers who actually advocate relativism?

The people listed so far are academic midgets... Is there no-one more well-respected than this Edwards guy?!

Could we have a bit more explanation of this?

As a counter-argument, one can say that only one thing in the world, relativism, is absolute, thereby solving this dilemma. This is a softer take on relativism, and says that the argument presented above is correct in a way. Not all statements are relative, but the only statement that is not relative is the statement: "The only thing that is absolute is that everything else is relative." Although this may preserve relativism for all practical intents and purposes as it is commonly applied, it does so at the cost of accepting one objective truth: relativism itself. A soft point of view on this issue is also that of considering relativism as something related only to human beliefs and behaviours which can't be demonstrated. In this way, relativism would have nothing to do with mathematical or scientific truth.

How can this work as an argument? It's not just soft, it's totally flaccid! And completely arbitrary. If the relativist is asserting that the only thing that is absolute is that everything else is relative, what's to stop a relativist-golfer from asserting that only two things are absolute, the fact that golf is the end goal of all human existence and the the fact that everything else is relative??

I fixed it. The real counter argument, that I have heard twice by two different philosophy professors is that the argument commits a fallacy in that you are effectively presupposing absoluteness to prove relativism wrong. This actual tidbit dates all the way back to the Jain philosophers and the Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna. That's the earliest I've seen it. It is very confusing though, you would think that it would either be a tautology or a contradiction, but it is neither. I like to say that a statement can deny the very logical context that it is couched in and yet still convey truth. It's very subtle. (CHF 09:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC))

Also I want to add that the Jains never seemed to even try to explain this. They'd basically just say "Nope, you're still wrong and you're too dumb to get it". Thankfully debate has evolved to be more analytical.

Just a place to talk about this

I'm very interested in relativism because i think we are in the Age of Relativism, and because i'm a traditional Catholic. To me it seems obvious that relativism not only defeats itself but also has no logical basis. If one admits that events happen, then there is always a truth about what happened, whether we know of it or not. Even if history could be changed in actuality, then those changes would be events that actually happened. Can anyone here provide a good argument for relativism?

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What about good or evil? If something happenes, is automatically good or evil? A moral relativist says, :what is your context.

Same rule applies. If good and evil exist, then good things/acts are good and evil things/acts are evil, no matter what our thoughts about them are.