Talk:Plastic

Polymer / Plastic

There is considerable overlap between the polymer and plastic pages. Its not clear from either page what the distinction, if any, between the two is. Actually my understanding is that 'plastic' is actually a colloquialism when used in this context, which seems to be what the article suggests. However, the article needs to make more clear how the two are related. A good example of conflation between these two articles is the inclusion of 'rubber' in this article. I don't believe that rubber is typically considered a 'plastic' in the colloquial sense, and even the section on rubber states that it is not a plastic. If it is not a plastic why is it in this article? My sense is that there needs to be some sort of merger or better division of subjects between these two articles, but I will do some additional research on whether there is a strict technical definition of the word 'plastic' as it is used in this article or whether it is mainly a colloquialism before I decide how to suggest doing that. Also, I'd like any thoughts by the rest of the community on this issue. Thanks. Locke9k (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)Locke9k

I haven't look at the polymer article, however, with respect to the rubber (and elastomers) comment, I fully agree. I've never heard of plastic referring to rubbers or elastomers. That should definitely be removed. And I'm also very open to cleaning up the definition. This page is in pretty bad shape for how important an item plastic is. Wizard191 (talk) 00:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Koppers company and foam cups

Does anyone else feel like the section in the Overview on Koppers company and the foam cups sounds like marketing? It seems realllly subjective and, "hey, we're not so bad, this is not the foam cup you were looking for" It just doesn't sit well with me.

indeed it can be much shorter and objective, it would also sit better in the "Plastics explosion: acrylic, polyethylene, etc" section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.119.170.50 (talk) 20:01, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

That definitely doesn't belong in the overview - just the year that polystyrene foam was developed. As for the blurb about the cup, I don't think it even belongs in the section about polystyrene later on, but maybe in an article about foam cups, and even then it does smack of marketing. Miguel (talk) 15:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, look at the following edit from March 14, by an anonymous user:

If burned without enough oxygen or at lower temperatures (as in a campfire or household fireplace) it can produce toxic vapors and other hazardous byproducts.

becomes sanitised to

If burned without enough oxygen or at lower temperatures (as in a campfire or household fireplace) it can produce carbon black and carbon dioxide.

Apart from the fact that insufficient oxygen will produce carbon monoxide the whole thing sacks of greenwashing. This same anonymous user has only ever contributed to this article. I have encapsulated the paragraphs about the foam cup in their own subsection in preparation for moving it out of the overview, possibly out of the article altogether into an article on the styrofoam cup, or for deletion as commercial propaganda. Miguel (talk) 15:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pulling that stuff out of the overview. I feel as though it definitely doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps it should go in the Polystyrene#Solid foam section? --Wizard191 (talk) 13:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Moved section. --Wizard191 (talk) 13:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Toxicity

"Some plastics have been associated with negative health effects.

Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) contains numerous toxic chemicals called adipates and phthalates ("plasticizers"), which are used to soften brittle PVC into a more flexible form."

Is link 100% proved? I had heard that the harmful effects claimed of phthalates is not certain, and that alternative plasticisers may actually be more harmful overall. The current reference does not help clarify this. Can someone who knows more on this topic please expand on this section, thanks. Ephebi (talk) 10:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

http://www.prw.com/homePBP_NADetail_UP.aspx?ID_Site=818&ID_Article=24845&mode=1&curpage=2

Note above URL, watch this space for self-serving changes in future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.195.113.153 (talk) 14:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of Plastic as Petroleum Derivative

I think more needs to be said about the process of making plastics from petroleum. Petroleum ranges from pentane to C12H26, whatever that's called. Are plastics just made from these molecules? Can they be made from heavier molecules like diesel fuels or even heavier? Can plastics be made from hydrocarbons not generally used for fuel, or are manufacturers of plastic and energy consumers always competing for supply? Is natural gas ever used to make plastics, and if not can it be? What do the chemical reactions look like? What does it take to make plastics from these molecules? Also, coal can be converted to petroleum, so perhaps it could also be converted to plastic. Do we ever make plastics out of coal? I think an article about plastic should address these questions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.174.37.51 (talk) 21:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Apart from petroplastic, there is bioplastic, from biomass. --Mac (talk) 07:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Color

Can someone add some information about the color of plastic when it is made?

• Is it transparent/opaque? If it is clear - is there some kind of transparency index?
• Does it vary depending on manufacturing conditions/processes?
• Is it treated or somehow chemically altered to make it clear?

Corrective lens#Lens materials has information on optical grade transparent plastics. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Flexible plastic

I suggest more infomation about flexible plastic types and materials. --Mac (talk) 07:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

First man-made plastic

According to the current form of this article, "The first man-made plastic was invented by Alexander Parkes in 1862; he called this plastic Parkesine." I'm not sure this is precisely correct. Bois-Durci was patented in Oct. 1855 by François Charles Lepage, and was supplanted by Bakelite after WWI. Perhaps Parkes should be credited with the first man-made thermoplastic or the first completely man-made plastic? Askari Mark (Talk) 23:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

What sources? I have tonnes of sources saying the opposite. Matador (talk) 21:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, in searching around, I’ve found these citations to something other than Parkesine being the first man-made plastic:

“Leonardo Da Vinci invented the first form of natural plastic during the Renaissance period. The plastic Da Vinci created was made from both animal and vegetable glues combined with organic fibers. This mixture was then used to coat the leaves of cabbage and papers. When this combination dried Da Vinci was left with a product that would be described today as a plastic-like substance.” (Source: American Plastics Council “The History of Plastic”)

“The first plastic was developed in 1851 when hard rubber, or ebonite, was synthesized.” (Source: EPA)

“One of the first plastics manufactured, discovered in 1856 and refined in 1877, was cellulose nitrate, also known as Celluloid. It was made from chemically treated cotton and was easily molded into a myriad of shapes, ....” (Mustalish, Rachel. “Modern Materials: Plastics”, Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History; Metropolitan Museum of Art)

“In 1862, Alexander Parkes was responsible for introducing the first man-made plastic at the Great International Exhibition in London. This man-made plastic was nicknamed Parkesine. Parkesine was an organic cellulose material that once heated could be strategically molded into certain shapes, and would keep shape when it was cooled.” (Source: American Plastics Council “The History of Plastic”)

“… since 1862 when Alexander Parkes synthesized the first man-made plastic (known as pyroxylin) ....” (Source: McGraw-Hill Higher Education, “Plastic-Producing Plants: The Cash Crop of the Future”)

“The plastics industry is recognized as having its beginnings in 1868 with the synthesis of cellulose nitrate. It all started with the shortage of ivory from which billiard balls were made. The manufacturer of these balls, seeking another production method, sponsored a competition. John Wesley Hyatt (in the U.S.) mixed pyroxin made from cotton (a natural polymer) and nitric acid with camphor. The result was cellulose nitrate, which he called celluloid. It is on record, however, that Alexander Parkes, seeking a better insulating material for the electrical industry, had in fact discovered that camphor was an efficient plasticizer for cellulose nitrate in 1862. Hyatt, whose independent discovery of celluloid came later, was the first to take out patents for this discovery.

“Cellulose nitrate is derived from cellulose, a natural polymer. The first truly man-made plastic came 41 years later (in 1909 [sic]) when Dr. Leo Hendrick Baekeland developed phenol-formaldehyde plastics (phenolics), ....” (Source: Ebewele, Robert O. Polymer Science and Technology)

“Leo Baekeland, a Belgian-born chemist-entrepreneur, ... developed a material that he named "Bakelite" ... the world’s first true plastic [i.e., the first completely synthetic man-made substance] [in 1907].... In 1909, Baekeland unveiled the world’s first fully synthetic plastic at a meeting of the New York chapter of the American Chemical Society.” (Source: Thinkquest.org, “History of Plastic”.)

So, for manmade natural plastics, we seem to have predecessors to Parkes in da Vinci (during the Renaissance), Charles Goodyear (ebonite, 1851), Alexander Parkes (cellulose nitrate, 1862 [or 1855?]) ... and, of course, Lepage (bois durci, 1855) if for Parkes one uses the 1862 date for Parkes (and both Lepage and Parkes displayed their inventions at the 1862 London Exhibition); on the first fully synthetic plastic, the sources all agree on Leo Hendrik Baekeland (Bakelite, developed in 1907 and revealed publicly in 1909). So what do you think? Askari Mark (Talk) 03:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you're dead right. It's good to mention the invention of celluloid as the first thermoplastic, but it's not the earliest modern plastic in the sense of a fully synthetic polymer. The history section needs to begin with latex, Da Vinci etc, move on to C19 cellulose-based stuff (and Parkes) and then mention PVC, nylon & acrylics as a preamble to the Types section. --mikaul^talk 09:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Inventor of polypropylene

The section of the article on this subject is directly contradictory. The quote marks around "official" make me think there is some bias in this section. Raisedonadiet (talk) 13:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Bakelite Patent

The section states: "When the Bakelite patent expired in 1930, the Catalin Corporation acquired the patent..."

When a patent expires, does not the intellectual property enter into the public domain? Why then would anyone have to acquire the patent? I am not being flip here, I don't know, and I am asking. 17.225.12.26 (talk) 17:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

You are correct, after a patent expires it becomes public domain (at least in the US). I'm not sure that sentence is even correct though. According to [1] the patent expired in 1927 and the competition started producing it. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm going to guess that Catalin became the major supplier of the plastic after the patent expired. Again, that's just an assumption here, and it should be researched more. Wizard191 (talk) 17:51, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe it was not the (expired) patent that Catalin purchased, but rather the specific intellectual knowledge the Bakelite Co. had developed: their particular formula and processes used in its manufacturing process. A reliable source should be relatively easy to find that confirms my supposition. Askari Mark (Talk) 18:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

cleaning reg. numbers off my fiberglass boat

I have a fiberglass speed boat and I renewed my registration this week and they gave me new numbers to put on my boat, how do I clean the old numbers off? judy2libra@aol.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.53.134.208 (talk) 21:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not a forum, please see the help desk. Wizard191 (talk) 02:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Polyester: thermoplastic or thermoset?

This article mentions polyester as an example of a thermoset, which does not change even when heat is applied, pointedly constrasting it to thermoplastics... but the wikipedia article on polyester itself claims that polyester is a thermoplastic, and changes shape with the application of heat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.167.95 (talk) 11:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

It's both, depending if they are saturated or unsturated. I'm going to try and add some info to the polyester article. Wizard191 (talk) 16:35, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Plastic health issues and some components now outlawed

Looking through Google news [2] [3] I find a lot of news articles about the health problems of certain ingredients in plastic, and bans various ones have received. I added a health section to the article, showing it causes problems, so much so it was banned in some countries. Dream Focus 15:46, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Bis(2-ethylhexyl) adipate / DEHA mismatching information

On the Bis(2-ethylhexyl) adipate / DEHA page, the IARC puts DEHA into Group 3, which suggests to me that, if that article is correct, that "of concern" should be taken to something like "under study, with no conclusive evidence for its toxicity." Expert, please? Joshua McGee (talk) 01:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Uses of plastic

In the uses you din't mention electric kettles. From which kind of plastic are they made?