Talk:Plame affair

Plame affair

• Started article with a cut in of material from Karl Rove article (to be further edited), but seemed like a good starting point. Calicocat 17:10, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Plame affair time line

full article at Plame scandal timeline

Events, but dates needed.

• Valerie Plame joins CIA
• Plame and Wilson marry - year?
• Wilson dispatched to Niger
• Bush State of the Union address
• Wilson Op Ed in New York Times
• Novak article exposes name
• Special prosecutor appointed
• Grand Jury

Redundant?

Sorry, if I'm stating (or missing) the obvious, but isn't this artilce redundant with Valerie Plame. I actually agree with the idea of having a "Plame affair" article, but I think the matter of where stuff goes should be resolved before lots of time is invested. It seems weird that this article is mentioned on Karl Rove, but not on Valerie Plame. --rob 23:27, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

It might be, I have to take a closer look there. Some editors working on Karl Rove had mentioned that there was too much on Plame affair in the Rove article and, in addition, others have mentioned there's too much Plame affair material in the Novak article and so on. Therefore, I think an article specifically about this might best serve the Wikipedia project. Watergate needs its own article apart from Richard Nixon and Iran-Contra affair needs its own and so on. I started this just today to be specifically about what I think is best called, the Plame affair. Calicocat 02:22, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

You've convinced me. --rob 02:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Consolidation organization

Template:Plame -SV|t 14:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Nice start, I'd suggest we use "Plame affair" however rather than CIA leak scandal. You do nice templates, Steve. Calicocat 23:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks - it could go either way -- "CIA leak" seems to be growing in media use, because its not so much about Plame as it is about the leak -- likewise "affair," has connotations of Lewinsky rather than Watergate, which can be somewhat misleading given the known facts. I'd like to see the template -more developed though, as some people are voicing concern over the redundancy between this and VP. Sinreg- SV|t 16:23, 22 July

2005 (UTC)

I had a similar conversation over "CIA leak" vs "Plame affair" at the "time line" article. Rather than recopy that to here, you might take a look at there. To my way of thinking "CIA leak" is too generic, whereas "Plame affair" puts it in context and is better than yet another "gate" tile like the POV "Rovegate." Anyway, lets see how it develops. The reason for this article is that it's not about a single person, per se, the Plame affair involves many individuals and issues, like Iran-Contra affair. Calicocat 17:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Coverage of 'Air Force One Memo'

Check here for a story with many new aspects to this affair. I don't have the time to adjust the article, but I thought I would at least bring it your attention. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 14:46, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

This absolutely needs to be included, I'll get to it. Gzuckier 16:15, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Former CIA agents critical of Bush

AP, Fri Jul 22, 2005 "WASHINGTON - Former U.S. intelligence officers criticized President Bush on Friday for not disciplining Karl Rove in connection with the leak of the name of a CIA officer, saying Bush's lack of action has jeopardized national security." [1] Reference posted by Calicocat to aid further expansion of article.

Photos and illustrations

I think this entry deserves a few pics -- perhaps the image of yellowcake, and a few of the main characters who have testified. Any other suggestions? 68.1.168.96 00:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing, but perhaps it's a bit early for it. However, if we were to have images, they would have to include -- Rove, Libby, Novak, Fitzgerlad, Wilson, Plame and maybe yellowcake. I remember some articles in newspapers about the Iran-Contra affair that had pictures with a caption about each person's role in the story. Maybe we can collect them in a section on the talk page and then place them into the article in some fashion. Calicocat 04:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Started creating list here Calicocat 06:24, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Images located --

• Patrick Fitzgerald -- newsphoto located, uploaded, Image:Patrick Fitzgerald 18380357.jpg
• Lewis Libby -- Image:Lewis_Libby
• Stephen Hadley -- Image:Hadleybio.jpg image uploaded (19:09, 25 July 2005 (UTC)) by Calicocat
• George Tenet -- Image:George_Tenet.gif
• Yellowcake -- Image:Yellowcake.jpg
• Joseph C. Wilson and Valerie Plame - Image:Plame and Wilson.JPG (at Valerie Plame article)

Images needed --

• Robert Novak -- no image at main article

Uh...I found one, it is- I think- in the public domain (there are no copyright markings anywhere on it.) It's at his CNN bio page. <http://www.cnn.com/CNN/anchors_reporters/images/novak.robert.jpg> but I don't know how to a) verify it's in the public domain b) get the file on a local wiki area. I'm new here so.....yeah, link to the photo, do whatever, I'll be quiet now.

Bush/Cheney not under oath?

Article says, "Both Vice President Dick Cheney and President George W. Bush have been interviewed by Fitzgerald, although not under oath. I think this is being confused with the Bush/Cheney "interviews" with the 9/11 commission? Can anyone provide background on this? I'm checking up on it as well Calicocat 04:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I remember reading that Cheney and Bush were questioned (early on) by Fitzgerald in the White House, not in front of the grand jury. I believe the "not under oath" factoid appeared again in the latest issue of Time. That's a good issue, by the way — there's more detail about the actual damage done by the leak, which should be included here. 68.1.168.96 13:01, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Unless an actual source can be provided, the line should be removed. If we later can find a sold reference to this, it can always be added back. Agreed? Calicocat 17:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Exposure and not "outing"

This is to request that we use the word, "exposure" or similar rather than the slang term "outing." If there's quote where the word "outing" is used, obviously that would have to stand, but in other contexts I suggest we keep to standard English. Calicocat 06:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Motive, means, opportunity

It seems that the issues of motive, means and opportunity should be addressed somehow herein. I'll have to get back to this, but any thoughts about this would be welcome. Questions of means and opportunity are becoming clear, but I think more information about motive should be included. Calicocat 19:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Server technical issues noted

Server issues are causing one save to look like many, very odd. Noted for reference. Time is 2:14 AM EDT Calicocat 06:14, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

The lead and User:Larryfooter's POV push

It is inappropriate for Karl Rove to appear in the lead of this article. There's an entire section within the article that deals with Rove's role in the Plame affair. Also, the information in these paragraphs seems to be a rather blatant POV push that selectively quotes from sources referenced whilst ignoring other information in the same references that does not support apparent damage control efforts as regards Rove. For example, take this line from the paragraphs in question --

In order to violate the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, one must expose the identity of a "covert agent." (see: Intelligence Identities Protection Act) To be considered a covert agent, one must be "serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States." § 426(4)(a)(ii) (again, see: Intelligence Identities Protection Act); yet it has been widely reported that Valerie Plame did not travel outside the US over the past 5 years

It is not "widely reported" that Plame did not travel outside the US, there is only speculation about that, that kind of phrase is a Weasel word. Yet to "substantiate" the dubious claim, User:Larryfooter cites a single reference from USA today, however, he selective omits details contained in the very same article which do not support his apparent desire to exonerate Rove. Later, in the same USA Today article there appears this, and I quote,

Joseph Wilson would not say whether his wife was stationed overseas again after 1997, and he said she would not speak to a reporter. But, he said, "the CIA obviously believes there was reason to believe a crime had been committed" because it referred the case to the Justice Department.

Spokesmen for both the CIA and federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, who is investigating whether a crime was committed, also would not comment.

The fact is no one can authoritatively say she was in the U.S. or not at this juncture and those who might know, will not say.

These paragraphs on Rove appeared inappropriately in the lead out of nowhere, without discussion and first without any references at all. I twice deleted them, only to be find them restored with this final comment in the edit history. "User:Larryfooter (Talk) (emphasis added) (reinsered FACTS in the lead stating that Rove has not yet been charged with a crime and that plame was not a covert agent - with sources this time - please dont remove it again)" Firstly, of course Rove has not been charged with a crime, no indictments have been handed down as yet, only time will tell if any are forthcoming. Secondly and more troubling to me is that I find this to an example of bad faith editing which does not seek to build consensus and stand on factual accuracy, but rather seems more about GOP based talking points and spin.

The Plame affair is likely to grow much more complex as time goes on. I would remind user:Larryfooter, who I think is a relatively new Wikipedian, that Wikipedia is not a place for political debate, or propaganda. If he (or any editor) wishes to engage in such, please take it to blogs or other more appropriate web sites.

In addition within this article and others related to it, I have also observed similar editing. For example, at Joseph C. Wilson there's language about "discrediting Wilson" from User:Larryfooter with dubious and incomplete references to a senate report.

I've again removed these paragraphs from the lead and would suggest that User:Larryfooter review Wikipedia policy on neutrality, factual sourcing and read What Wikipedia is not, Wikipedia:Staying cool when the editing gets hot, and review the style manual on writing the Lead section for articles. Calicocat 05:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I just made an edit to the lead, changing "The complete contradiction of fact in the president's speech caused Ambassador Wilson much consternation and consequently he wrote an Op-ed in the New York Times challenging the veracity of the president's statement." to " Ambassador Wilson responded with an Op-ed in the New York Times challenging the veracity of the president's statement." I believe this moves the article toward the NPOV; compare "Sensing an opportunity to smear the Bush administration, Ambassador Wilson authored an Op-ed in the New York Times challenging the veracity of the president's statement."

In general, we should avoid ascribing motives to people in our articles.

I also removed the first (but not subsequent) references to "leak" in the article, so that it first appears as part of Ambassador Wilson's contention. Characterizing the information as a leak seems to imply that Rove was lying when he contended that he was simply passing on information from another reporter.

mjscud 00:45, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Alberto Gonzales Notification

I just updated the page with information from the Washington Post story regarding the AG being informed of the Justice Department investigation in September of 2003, how he called the White House Chief of Staff immediately, and how he waited 12 hours before he notified the general staff. There is an implication in the article that the 12 hour gap in somehow untoward, but no proof is raised that anything actually illegal occurred. I think as the week goes on, and more information comes out, Gonzales role and the time-table of notifications and testimonies of senior White House Staff might need its own section.--Jodyw1 07:11, 25 July 2005 (UTC)Jody

I'm thinking along the same lines. My hope is that Gonzales' role will become clear as the case moves forward. As far as Gonzales is concerned, I think it best not to engage in speculation about illegality but rather to state clearly and factually what his actions have been, and what statments of his are on the record. There are valid question to be asked -- Why did he wait 12 hours? What took place during that time? Who, if anyone, benefited from the delay? What was his motivation in delaying giving notification? Maybe it was untoward, maybe not. Some of his own statements on this are contradictory. He was counsel to the president and now is AG, so we might see him recuse himself from the case. We just don't know right now. More generally, I think each of the major players and key events should have seperate subsections. In time, a graphic or graphics showing links and flows of events might be useful. This is a most complex case. I find it simpler and more NPOV to parse things out now and to keep known fact seperate from spin, damage control and speculation. In the interst of neutrality and factual accuracy, I'm being very carefull about drawing permature conclusions about any of the central figures or key elements of the case. Calicocat 21:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

We are we spending so much space on Radical POV's?

I just looked over this and i thought I knew a lot about the Plame affair, but I certainly didn't know about some of these begging-the-question-like-your-life-depended on it POV's and the like. It looks like either some people have been doing some heavy data-mining or are all too sold on some obscure radical political publications, and they are trying to push the fringe counter-narratives from those sources into this article. In any case, i think we should look over the WP:NPOV policy with regard to fringe POV's and proportional representation, and try to make this article a little more mainstream. Kevin Baas^{talk: new} 02:09, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Can you give some specific examples of "obscure radical political publications" herein? Calicocat 02:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't know of any, and i didn't mean to imply that any were cited. I'm just saying i don't know where else some people could have gotten some of the ideas that are in this article. -and by NPOV policy fringe pov's don't belong, at least not in this kind of proportion. Kevin Baas^{talk: new} 12:02, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Offhand I can't see anything that I haven't been reading about in one press source or another. Examples man. WHAT don't you know the source of? If something seems that 'far out' to those who aren't following this closely it ought to be sourced... but just looking at it I can't pick out anything I haven't been reading in the papers. --CBDunkerson 18:38:47, 2005-07-26 (UTC)

I'm still confused as well by what's meant by "fring pov's." The article contains a lot of references to major media sources and known facts of the case. I've had one issue with an editor selectively omitting facts that did not comport with his apparent POV, but other than that, most of the editors making contributions have been observant of the NPOV policy and other aspects of good collaborative, consensus based editing. Calicocat 21:23, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Calicocat. I believe the article is well-documented, and is balanced in those places where no hard facts can exist due to the nature of the case. I would like to see some specific examples of places where you believe "fringe POV" exists, so that we can correct them. Because of the sharp rhetoric and wild speculation surrounding this topic in the media (from both sides!), we must necessarily address both extremes in the article. But I hope that we have done a good job of addressing all arguments in a neutral way, with actual documented facts (something rarely seen in the media these days) whenever possible. Aerion//talk 00:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Well I don't have a lot of time, so just ignore me until i look over more thoroughly and find specifics. I think I recall things like "maybe plame wasn't really a covert agent?" well if plame wasn't a covert agent, i think someone should tell that to mr. fitzgerald and the jury, because that means this investigation is completely absurd! things like that, that are just outright ridiculous, i recall seeing. and although that isn't really "fringe" because it's one of the talking points of the administration's rove-defense misinformation campaign, and it seems like this gets through a non-negligible number of ppl's common sense filters - this is along the lines of what i'm talking about - there are some things that i haven't seen in news papers and i find even more ridiculous than that - and i've read a lot of newspapers articles on this.

anycase, if ppl are going to put begging-the-question in here, as it sometimes constitutes republicans "pov", although it isn't technically a "view", then it should be countered not by acknoledging a question that is begged - that is just reinforcing the beggging, not a counter-weight - it should be countered by facts - "offering the answer". Kevin Baas^{talk: new} 01:05, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

And this article is great! I'm impressed - I wish I had the time to take some credit for it. Kevin Baas^{talk: new} 02:06, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for checking in. I re-read your first comment here three times and I think I see what you were getting at, seeing this now, I get it. We can always use more good editors. The "begging the question" good advice there. Cheers, Calicocat 15:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Randel Source

The claim that Randel exposed Lord Ashcroft as a DEA agent is sourceless. I'd hate to delete it, but unless somebody can find a source it should be removed. The page on Lord Ashcroft suggests that he was in fact mentioned as a name of somebody being investigated by the DEA, not an agent of the DEA. This is important since it makes the legal case significantly different from the Plame affair. Revealing a person under a secret investigation is not the same as being an secret agent.7/25/2005

• — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.175.202.86 (talk • contribs) 03:30, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Please before taking the time to type this much, and threaten a delete, it's solid. Typing the Surname into Google turns up CNN and Findlaw with Articles. Further, legally it matters only in which sections of title 18 are violated. Unauthorized disclosure of any classified is a crime. Nothing to parse there. Motive isn't a requirement at all in many instances. A military base telephone book is a restricted item on many installations.

The Randel entry is good you can google it to a John Dean article in Findlaw and another on CNN. Delete huh? Not a decent choice. Try a google. (Non-registered user who digs the Wiki) (Move this as ya see fit!)

• — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.178.18.135 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

In the Randel instance, he used classified information for his own purposes. Instead of a trial and 500 years he plead out. 1 year in and 3 with a bracelet. Edit me away, I am done ;)

• — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.178.18.135 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Whatever the case, the point is valid. It needs to be sourced. I'll do it if I can find an appropriate source. Aerion//talk 23:47, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

If I had actually looked at the article first, I could have told you that the source for the claim immediately precedes it in the text. I've moved the FindLaw citation after the paragraph in question so it's more clear where the information comes from. Aerion//talk 23:55, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

As the person who inserted the initial references to Randel here, I believe the story here evolved to have many errors. In particular, the cited source (and no other source I have ever seen) does not suggest that Ashcroft was an agent. Randel claimed he was a suspect. I have cleaned up this section.

--RichardMathews 09:29, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Name Lists

What do people think of combining the 'Central Figures' list and 'Known Witnesses' list? Just specify which are known to have testified in the combined list. That way we could list Novak and include both that he published the initial leak and that many analysts suspect he spoke to the grand jury. Also we wouldn't have different descriptions of Karl Rove's job in each list and other similar duplication. --CBDunkerson 18:34:06, 2005-07-26 (UTC)

I started the list of those known to have testified at the grand jury just to help parse out this most complex situation. As it stands, all those who are central figures may not be amonst those who are known to have given testimony before the grand jury, hence the two seperate lists. Perhaps as the case moves forward the two lists will be combined into some third format that includes information about each person. My thinking is that each of the major players should eventually have a subsection. Perhaps at some point there will be need for a graphic or graphics showing lines of connection or some sort of visual device to aid understanding. Calicocat 21:14, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The decision whether to give Undersecretary John H. Bolton a place on that list could be contentious, as sources differ on the veracity of the claim that he testified... :) -- RyanFreisling @ 23:57, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

What did the president know?

An article in the Washington Post gives summary of where things are in Plame affair. Several points herein should be useful to Plame scandal timeline and Plame affair article development. What Did the President Know? Washington Post, Mon. 23 July 2005 Calicocat 00:18, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

New Walter Pincus article

(also posted at 'Karl Rove', but it belongs wherever this evolving scandal winds up.)

In this article in the Washington Post, former CIA spokesman (who testified before the grand jury) confirms Plame was undercover operative, and Pincus describes a very unusual person who gave testimony to the grand jury - a friend of Wilson who approached Novak on the street six days prior to his now-infamous column and to whom Novak, not aware of the man's friendship with Wilson, apparently leaked Plame's identity. -- RyanFreisling @ 04:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

{Bill} Harlow, the former CIA spokesman, said in an interview yesterday that he testified last year before a grand jury about conversations he had with Novak at least three days before the column was published. He said he warned Novak, in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson's wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed.

Harlow said that after Novak's call, he checked Plame's status and confirmed that she was an undercover operative. He said he called Novak back to repeat that the story Novak had related to him was wrong and that Plame's name should not be used. But he did not tell Novak directly that she was undercover because that was classified information.

In a strange twist in the investigation, the grand jury -- acting on a tip from Wilson -- has questioned a person who approached Novak on Pennsylvania Avenue on July 8, 2003, six days before his column appeared in The Post and other publications, Wilson said in an interview. The person, whom Wilson declined to identify to The Post, asked Novak about the "yellow cake" uranium matter and then about Wilson, Wilson said. He first revealed that conversation in a book he wrote last year. In the book, he said he tried to reach Novak on July 8, and they finally connected on July 10. In that conversation, Wilson said he did not confirm his wife worked for the CIA but that Novak told him he had obtained the information from a "CIA source."

Novak told the person that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA as a specialist in weapons of mass destruction and had arranged her husband's trip to Niger, Wilson said. Unknown to Novak, the person was a friend of Wilson and reported the conversation to him, Wilson said.

Bolton interviewed, did not testify

Big controversy whether Bolton did or did not testify before the grand jury in the Plame affair. MSNBC's July 21 'Hardball' says yes:

According to lawyers, former Secretary of State Colin Powell and undersecretaries, including John Bolton, gave testimony about this memo. And a lawyer for one State Department official says his client testified that, as President Bush was flying to Africa on Air Force One two years ago, Press Secretary Ari Fleischer could be seen reading the document on board.

The timing is significant, because the president's trip on July 7 was one day after Ambassador Joe Wilson's column was published criticizing the administration. In other words, on July 6, Wilson's column comes out. On July 7, the State Department memo about Wilson's wife is seen on Air Force One. And, on July 8, Karl Rove had a conversation with columnist Robert Novak, but says it was Novak who told him about Valerie Plame, not the other way around.

Rove also says he never saw the State Department memo until prosecutors showed it to him. Six days later, on July 14, 2003, Novak published the now infamous column that publicly identified Valerie Plame, Wilson's wife, as a CIA operative.

Grand jury witnesses say a call record kept by Ari Fleischer shows Novak placed a call to him during this period. And lawyers for several witnesses say their clients were questioned by investigators about Fleischer's conversations. Fleischer, however, did not have the power to be a decision-maker in the administration. And White House observers point out, he wouldn't have likely taken it upon himself to disseminate the State Department memo. In any case, Fleischer and his lawyer have declined to comment.

and apparently stands by the story, and Reuters says it didn't happen:

Some critics have also seized on reports he may have been involved in leaking the identity of aCIA operative, Valerie Plame, but a U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Bolton had neither testified nor been asked to do so before the grand jury investigating the leak. -- RyanFreisling @ 04:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Yep. He did. State Dept confirmed it today.

State Dept. Now Says Bolton Interviewed

WASHINGTON - John Bolton, President Bush's nominee for U.N. ambassador, mistakenly told Congress he had not been interviewed or testified in any investigation over the past five years, the State Department said Thursday. Bolton was interviewed by the State Department inspector general in 2003 -- RyanFreisling @ 02:19, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Ryan, sorry about pulling this out of the grand jury witnesses list. I think it is very important news, he still lied to the Senate, but from what we know so far there is no proof he testified to the grand jury in addition to the State IG. Have you heard anything about whether MSNBC is sticking by their original report or did they just have the story slightly confused? --CBDunkerson 10:55:44, 2005-07-30 (UTC)

This is a strange one. MSNBC hasn't updated the story, afaik - but I've got my feelers out. Looks like he didn't, and they'll retract, on the face of it. If I hear anything back, I'll point to it. And no problem at all - thanks for making the correction! :) -- RyanFreisling @ 14:50, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Operation: Blame Plame begins

Report: Plame Gave Money to Anti-Bush Group

WASHINGTON — Outed CIA spy Valerie Plame last fall gave a campaign contribution to go toward an anti-Bush fund-raising concert starring Bruce Springsteen, it was revealed Tuesday night.

It's the first revelation that Plame participated in anti-Bush political activity while working for the CIA.

The $372 donation to the anti-Bush group America Coming Together (search), first reported by Time magazine's Web site, was made in Plame's married name of Valerie E. Wilson and covered two tickets. The Federal Election Commission (search) record lists her occupation as "retired" even though she's still a CIA staffer. Under employer it says: "N.A."

A special prosecutor is probing whether Plame's CIA identity was leaked to retaliate against her husband, Joseph Wilson (search), for attacking President Bush's Iraq policy after he went on an Iraq-linked CIA mission arranged by his wife.

Wilson {... said ...} that his wife "doesn't recall listing herself as retired."

CIA rules allow campaign contributions, but the fact that Plame gave money to the anti-Bush effort is likely to raise eyebrows. Federal rules require a political-action committee to ask all donors to list their employers.

"You don't have to provide it, but if you do, you shouldn't provide false information on those forms — like saying you're retired if you're not," said Larry Noble of the non-partisan Center for Responsive Politics [2]

-- RyanFreisling @ 14:17, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh, that's so much worse than releasing an undercover agent's name to get back and her husband for being honest to the best of his ability. Hearing that, is it long before Fitgerald pack's up and goes home? That totally trumps anything that I've heard about this case so far. (joke). Calicocat 15:20, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Operation: Slime Fitzgerald on the way

From the NY Observer.

Circled in a bristling perimeter around the White House, the friends and allies of Mr. Rove can soon be expected to fire their rhetorical mortars at Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor investigating the White House exposure of C.I.A. operative Valerie Wilson. Indeed, the preparations for that assault began months ago in the editorial columns of The Wall Street Journal, which has tarred Mr. Fitzgerald as a “loose cannon” and an “unguided missile.”

Evidently Senator Pat Roberts, the Kansas Republican who chairs the Senate Intelligence Committee, will lead the next foray against the special prosecutor. This week the Senator’s press office announced his plan to hold hearings on the Fitzgerald probe. That means interfering with an “ongoing investigation,” as the White House press secretary might say, but such considerations won’t deter the highly partisan Kansan.

Plame affiar visual index

• Plame affair visual index
• Add new images here, discuss in some other section. Someone suggested getting images together, I thought it was good idea. Calicocat 15:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

File:Patrick Fitzgerald 18380357.jpg Patrick Fitzgerald

-

Stephen Hadley

Karl Rove

File:Matthew Cooper.jpg Matthew Cooper

File:George Tenet.gif George Tenet	File:Plame and Wilson.JPG Joseph C. Wilson and Valerie Plame.
The mushroom cloud, spoken of frequently by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell and senior whitehouse staff prior to the confrontation with Iraq. Photo info here	Yellowcake

oh, the 'mushroom cloud' picture should definitely go in the article. in this context it is hilarious! (tho not funny in its original context of course) -- 71.198.189.142 22:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Kudos

I would like show my appreciation to Calicocat, aerion and others for creating and working on this page and trying as best as possible to keep NPOV. Now if we could just make this the one stop shop for information on this, instead of folks trying to recreate the whole thing in umpteen other places.--Gangster Octopus 23:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Wow,thank you so much. A lot of credit has to go to those working on Karl Rove as well. Calicocat 23:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I second the kudos for Calicocat, as well as the others who've worked on this. I've added the Wilsons' photo to this article. Thanks for digging those up, Calicocat. I'll do more with the others as time permits. (Late for bed now... :( ) -asx- 05:11, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and I also second the idea that we should encourage movement of the details of this scandal away from the other pages to this one. With the exception someone noted the other day that, for example, the Rove page would expand on Rove's role in the scandal -- without rehashing the whole story. -asx- 05:13, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Thirded. The boxes are nice too. :) -St|eve 05:35, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Table formatting

I moved the 3 lists into floating tables, for a couple of reasons:

1. Multi-column layouts tend to be more appealing and give the browsing reader more options and encourages scrolling so they see more of the article.
2. It has the effect of shortening the actual prose portion of the article. People don't usually read lists (in their entirity, like prose), so when they appear inside the flow of the article, they have the effect of breaking up the narrative.

I know these kinds of massive formatting changes can be controversial. If you don't like it, feel free to revert. -asx- 05:16, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I like what you are going for, but I think it would be best if the list stayed within one section somehow. I find it makes the page load more slowyly and the text column is too narrow for comfortable reading. I find it distracting. Someone is also developing a template with a kind of similar similar function. The lists are just a basic, baseline reference and can just sit there for when they might be needed. If you need a name one, you can go and get it. I appreciate the effort and it has a kind of cool look, but I'm minded to restore it to a plain list for now. The help files say it's better to stick with just lists. The article needs much more work in terms of sections and subsections. Calicocat 11:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

On my excessively wide resolution, the list of people overlaps the TOC, and so gets pushed to the left. That's mildly irritating. Disregarding that, I like the idea of getting the lists out of the way. But I'm not entirely convinced that the lists actually need to be present at all. The list of central figures may just need to be a "see also" section at the end of the article. Aerion//talk 13:23, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Both good points, especially the latter about wide resolution. That's the problem with fluid layouts. Feel free to revert. I don't think the lists add much; they aren't bad (IMO) if they are relegated to 2ndary position in the sidebar, but right smack dab in the middle of the article, I think they are a distraction. Maybe it would be better to spin off a sub-article like the Plame affair timeline. But, whatever you guys decide to do is OK with me. (I can undo it if you want to do that, but I have to get to work now so it won't be for several hours that I'm able to do that...) -asx- 13:30, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, CBDunkerson moved them down. Thanks, that's much better. Good idea, asx! Aerion//talk 21:40, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

merging from Valerie Plame

There is a note on the Plame page that some of this stuff should be merged. I think the stuff there dealing with legality and national security certainly is relevant here, as well as the various reactions from the Admin, from former CIA, etc.--csloat 07:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I think we should open a subsection on Valerie Plame (and other key figures) I hope we can expand the article that way. This article is still too Rove oriented (from whence it came), so we need to now begin the expansion of subsections. Certainly an Article named Plame affair should have a subsection on her. Lets see where it goes. I short section that brings out key points, maybe just a bulleted list to start something like that. Calicocat 08:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

On the subsections, I agree but think we should limit it to their involvement in the leak and investigation rather than background on the individuals. I have started moving pieces of the various articles to pages that seem more appropriate... trying to cut the merging task down to a managable size. What do people think about taking the Joseph Wilson specific stuff OFF of this page. Alot of it is duplicated from the Wilson page. To my mind there are two separate, but related obviously, issues here... the 'Plame affair' encompassing everything from the reasons and sources of the leak through the reactions and investifation of it AND a separate controversy over whether Joseph Wilson told the truth about various things. This latter is comparatively minor (as for instance... no grand jury looking into it) and I think can be contained entirely on the Joseph Wilson page with just mention of the dispute and cross-linking here. Likewise with the now starting assaults on Valerie Wilson and Patrick Fitzgerald... these can each be contained on the individual pages rather than duplicating each of them here. Opinions? --CBDunkerson 11:43:31, 2005-07-28 (UTC)

I like your edits, --CBDunkerson and good edit comment and think your organizational ideas are strong and sound. There needs to be balance between the individual articles of the central figures and the key events of the Plame affair itself, yes. This article was started since too much Plame affair was creaping into individual articles creating POV disputs and the like. However, now we have this article and have to watch about bringing too information about individuals here. Calicocat 03:35, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Is the merging considered complete now? There seems to be plenty of redundancy, which I would figure can best be solved by trimming the Valerie Plame article. I notice no merge notice there, but one here. Gzuckier 16:17, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Plame affair template

Someone started an organizational template it's a good suggestion but should not be rushed or placed into articls until it's had some time to develop and expand. It was posted into one of the talk page sections. Calicocat 03:35, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Lists and footnotes and source, oh my!

Lists of names, footnotes, references, key events and the like can be moved to subpages and eventually sorted and formatted as may be necessary for reinclusion in articles to which they might be useful. Calicocat 03:35, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Sections and subsections

What kind of sections do we need? I think the article needs to have some cuts in places and expansion in others. Here are some suggestions for sections we can work on. We'll need structural and functional sections. What do you think?

Some subsections or other headings...I'd like to hear more about organizing the articles progress.

• Background section -- Needs attention.

(other sections I think we need)

• President Bush - public positions and quotes
• Dick Cheney -
• Fleischer/McClellan
• Republicans
• Democreats
• Vallerie Plame -- needed
• Wilson -- needed, includes his essay, book and public campaign
• Rove -- developed, needs to be reviewed, updated
• Libby -- needed
• FBI investigation
• Gonzalas -- Notifications, statments on the record.
• Investigations, Ashcoft, FBI, Fitzgerald, then grand gury, others that may develop, such as congressional.
• The Leak -- when the name is revealed
• A trip to Niger --
• Media coverage --
• Legal

There's still some old information and innocuous statements that Rove has not been charged with a crime and things of that nature. Calicocat

What I think we should do is create a high-level list of the topics covered at all Plame affair-related articles, and decide which article should cover which topics. Most of the stuff should go here, but some people have suggested that information specific to a single person, such as speculation about Karl Rove or questions about Joe Wilson's credibility, should go at that person's article. That way, we can more easily identify what information exists somewhere on Wikipedia, as well as what information needs to be merged, and what information we would like to add or expand on.

While the sections you mention do need coverage, it is an extraordinarily large amount of material to cover. I think that adding all of it to this article may make the article far longer than desired. Excessive length discourages readers and hinders proper maintainance. Is there a more appropriate place for some of this? Could we simply have one section for "Administration reaction" that would cover statements by Bush, Cheney, and McClellan?

Splitting up these tasks may be advisable to avoid burning out any single editor. Aerion//talk 13:32, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with your statement, "Excessive length discourages readers and hinders proper maintainance." This can't be emphasized enough. In my short time hanging around here, I've heard it said that spinning off sub-articles is not to be done; everything must be packed into a single, gigantic article. I think this information would reach many more people, and as you say, be easier to maintain, if we had sub-articles. Two examples could be "Wilson's Niger Trip," and "Plame's Covert Status," each examing those topics in depth. -asx- 02:45, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Question Can we create a template, something like {{PlameAffair}}, that could be dropped into every page with information on this topic? That way the formatting and text would be consistent across all pages, and if we needed to reword it later, we'd only have to do it once, not 98 times. If you Search the site for "Plame," you get four pages of results. Just looking at the 3 lists in the article, it's clear that there are a LOT of pages that contain information on this topic. By placing the template on the relevent pages, I think we could encourage editors of those articles to assist with the effort. Just some thoughts. -asx- 03:05, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Big news in the Plame affair

News of a third contact between the Bush administration and the media (Washington Post reporter Walter Pincus) regarding Plame's identity has come to light. NYTimes

Case of C.I.A. Officer's Leaked Identity Takes New Turn

WASHINGTON, July 26 - In the same week in July 2003 in which Bush administration officials told a syndicated columnist and a Time magazine reporter that a C.I.A. officer had initiated her husband's mission to Niger, an administration official provided a Washington Post reporter with a similar account.

The first two episodes, involving the columnist Robert D. Novak and the reporter Matthew Cooper, have become the subjects of intense scrutiny in recent weeks. But little attention has been paid to what The Post reporter, Walter Pincus, has recently described as a separate exchange on July 12, 2003.

In that exchange, Mr. Pincus says, "an administration official, who was talking to me confidentially about a matter involving alleged Iraqi nuclear activities, veered off the precise matter we were discussing and told me that the White House had not paid attention" to the trip to Niger by Joseph C. Wilson IV "because it was a boondoggle arranged by his wife, an analyst with the agency who was working on weapons of mass destruction."

Mr. Pincus did not write about the exchange with the administration official until October 2003, and The Washington Post itself has since reported little about it. The newspaper's most recent story was a 737-word account last Sept. 16, in which the newspaper reported that Mr. Pincus had testified the previous day about the matter, but only after his confidential source had first "revealed his or her identity" to Mr. Fitzgerald, the special counsel conducting the C.I.A. leak inquiry.

Mr. Pincus has not identified his source to the public. But a review of Mr. Pincus's own accounts and those of other people with detailed knowledge of the case strongly suggest that his source was neither Karl Rove, Mr. Bush's top political adviser, nor I. Lewis Libby, the chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, and was in fact a third administration official whose identity has not yet been publicly disclosed.

Mr. Pincus's most recent account, in the current issue of Nieman Reports, a journal of the Nieman Foundation, makes clear that his source had volunteered the information to him, something that people close to both Mr. Rove and Mr. Libby have said they did not do in their conversations with reporters.

Mr. Pincus has said he will not identify his source until the source does so. But his account and those provided by other reporters sought out by Mr. Fitzgerald in connection with the case provide a fresh window into the cast of individuals other than Mr. Rove and Mr. Libby who discussed Ms. Wilson with reporters.

The news here is not that Pincus was contacted - he let that be known in Oct 2003 I believe - but that there was a third Admin official (as yet unnamed) who was a source of the information. So we have Rove, Libby, and a third person to try for treason. --csloat 19:27, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Correct. But also relevant and underemphasized - Pincus asserts that the admin official, who identified him/herself to Fitzgerald and the grand jury (who was neither Rove nor Novak) was the source of the info, and not vice-versa as in the case of Rove/Novak. -- RyanFreisling @ 19:36, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Removed "current" template

Removal of the "current" tag.

1. I don't think the tag fits here, we're not dealing with a sitaution of immediate breaking news, like the Madrid bombings. This article might even at lag a bit behind the news cycle, it probablly should. There's no harm there, in fact, in the long run, it will make for a stronger article. It won't be as much subject to the various ups and downs we might see as this case develops. Wikipedia is not a news media outlet or a news index.
2. I think the inclusion of the "current" template tends to setup bad conditions for conflicts as conflicting reports come in. In time some of the questions will be answered, however, there maybe end up being some long term unanswered questions as well, matters of debate for historians. A list of press accounts related to the plame affair is useful as is the scandel time line article and those should continue.
3. The template "current" was vandalized and may be again. I think using it unless it's really required should be avioded to help server loading issues as well as it just being nasty. Calicocat 03:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. We are in a 'lull' right now. I think it may get crazy again if/when Fitzgerald makes a move, but until then it isn't 'current' in the sense of rapidly changing and confused information. --CBDunkerson 10:50:11, 2005-07-30 (UTC)

I think I (respectfully) disagree. Perhaps the 'speed' is on a weeks-n-months timeframe, but the situation is definitely characterized by confused and rapidly changing information, as the tight-lipped investigation details emerge and the administration/GOP 'no comment/talking point' responses follow. I'd consider this 'current'. Just my perspective, I'm not at all 'up in arms' about the tag. -- RyanFreisling @ 14:54, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

It is worth noting that this is listed under the Current Events link on the left there as an ongoing event (I changed the link to this from Valerie Plame), so a case could be made for consistency to include it. But it isn't a big deal, etiher way.--Gangster Octopus 18:28, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

In order for one to be protected by the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, it must be proven that the U.S. government "is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States." If Plame worked at CIA's headquarters it may show that the CIA was not taking "affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States," however, her exact assignments and location are not known as of August 1, 2005.

I am not comfortable with this claim. The fact that US taxpayers were spending money on an entire front company that protected Plame's identity pretty well seals the question of whether the US was taking "affirmative measures" in this case. It's pointed out elsewhere on this page I think -- though it may have been on the Valerie Plame page -- but this statement gives credibility to a claim that seems to be based on total ignorance of US intelligence operations, or at least that's what former CIA operatives like Larry Johnson and Pat Lang claim. --csloat 03:07, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Time line review

I'd like to include an abbreviated time line in the article and started this draft. I'd like to flesh it out but keep it short. When it's in good shape it can be included in the "time line" section of the article and those wishing more detail can check the full time line article. To develop this, my suggestion is that we add details to the draft below but keep comments above or below the (sparingly used) horizontal lines.

The idea as I see it is not to include every detail of the vicissitudes of press reports and such, but rather to include the most significant events -- things which have material bearing on the situation, for example, indictments, convictions, dismissals, etc. Again, I used horizontal lines (sparingly) to mark off the proposed draft time line apart from any comments editors might have regarding it. Calicocat 05:10, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

---

(developing short version of time line, here)
Abbreviated time line, key events

• U.S and U.K. agree on pretext to war -- Downing Street memo, Yellowcake forgery
  • Reasons for military action in Iraq cited by Bush administration prior to initiation of Operation Iraqi Liberation, Operation Iraqi Freedom
    1. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction
    2. need for "regime change"
• Ambassador Wilson travels to Niger at behest of CIA to investigate evidence of sales of yellowcake uranium ore to Iraq (dates needed)
  1. Wilson reports to Washington that no such activity has taken place (dates)
• President Bush delivers 2003 State of the Union address (the 16 words)
• Wilson responds with Op-ed in New York Times (link needed)
• Senior White House officials (per Novak) leak Plame identity to Novak and other reporters
• Novack discloses identity of Plame in his column (link, date, needed)
• Bush calls for internal investigation conducted by Attorney General John Ashcroft (dates needed)
• FBI conducts investigation (dates, details needed)
• CIA calls upon Justice Department to investigate (date needed)
• John Ashcroft recuses himself from the case, appoints Deputy AG to be "acting AG" for the case (date needed)
  1. Deputy AG appoints Patrick Fitzgerald
• Fitzgerald begins investigation (key filings?)
• Grand jury impaneled (expires in October, 2005, unless extended)

-End- (as of Aug. 1, 2005)

---

Yes, please. The separate timeline article has mushroomed to the point where it's not a timeline any more. Gzuckier 16:18, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Photo Suggestion

On http://www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2005/07/20/rovenovakPicture.html there's a picture of Rove together with Novak. Rove has a button attached to his suit that says "I am a source, not a target!". Not a photoshopped image! link to picture 80.217.225.208 01:13, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

If you can get permission from the photo copyright holder to grant a usage license as needed, the photo might be included, otherwise, it would be a copyright issue. Calicocat 02:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Air Force One Memo

I replaced this paragraph:

The keen interest in the memo stems from it being the only known source even tentatively linking Plame to the suggestion that Wilson be sent to Niger, aside from a separate statement of "additional views" filed by three Republican senators in connection with the Senate investigation into prewar intelligence on Iraq, which wasnot written until 2004. This is the precise information leaked to Novak, Cooper, and the Post's Walter Pincus in order to discount Wilson's qualifications, and therefore implicates the memo as the source of the leaked exposure of Plame, via someone who was on that flight of Air Force One, as well as confirming that the information was known to be secret; in addition making Novak's statement that he learned of Plame from another journalist seem to be unlikely given the time frames involved.[3], [4]

with the following:

The keen interest in the memo stems from speculation that it was the source of the leaked information concerning Plame, via someone who was on the flight of Air Force One, and would indicate that the information was known to be secret.

The mention of the Senate report is quite unecessary here, and appears to be included only to justify the claim that the memo reviewed on Air force One was "the only known source even tentatively linking Plame to the suggestion that Wilson be sent to Niger." Given the limited publicly available information concerning the matter, the "only known" qualifier has no significance. And in fact, the earlier June 10 State Department memo, the notes of the CIA meeting by the unnamed senior State Department analyst, the analyst and other attendees at that meeting, and the persons at CIA involved with arranging Wilson's Niger trip, are all possible sources of the "precise information" that Plame suggested Wilson. The assertion that the memo circulated on Air Force One was involved in the leak is purely speculative at this point. The claims that the memo has been implicated as the source of the leak, that it confirms the information was known to be secret, and that Novak's statement is "unlikely given the time frames involved" are unjustified. 216.160.109.205 16:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The latest attempt to give prominence to this left-wing blogger speculation is hardly an improvement:

Those who believe that someone in the administration's inner circle was responsible for the leak note that, to date, it is the only known document even tentatively linking Plame to the suggestion that Wilson be sent to Niger (aside from a separate statement of "additional views" filed by three Republican senators in connection with the Senate investigation into prewar intelligence on Iraq, which was not written until 2004). This is the precise information leaked to Novak, Cooper, and the Post's Walter Pincus in order to discount Wilson's qualifications, which the administration's critics point out is consistent with the memo as the source of the leaked exposure of Plame via someone who was on that flight of Air Force One, as well as confirming that the information was known to be secret; in addition making Novak's statement that he learned of Plame from another journalist seem to be unlikely given the time frames involved. The memo's use of "Valerie Wilson" rather than "Valerie plame" is also consistent with Rove's statement that he did not use Plame's name, or even know what it was.[5], [6]

As noted above, the memo circulated on Air force One is not the only known document linking Plame to Wilson's trip. While the speculation that the Air force One memo was the source of the leak may be consistent with known facts, so are other possibilities. This speculation does not confirm that the information was known to be secret or make Novak's statement unlikely. And why isn't the memo's use of "Valerie Wilson" rather than "Valerie Plame" cited as consistent with the belief that the memo was NOT the source of the leak to Novak, since Novak called her Plame? 216.160.109.205 18:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

because he looked it up in "Who's Who in America"?Gzuckier 00:22, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't raising the name difference as a serious issue. Note that I didn't say that the memo's use of "Valerie Wilson" rather than "Valerie Plame" proved that the memo was not the source of the leak to Novak. I said it was "consistent with" the memo not being the source. My point was precisely that this proves nothing, any more than does saying that the memo mentioning that Plame suggested Wilson for the Niger trip is "consistent with" the memo being the source. That statement is obvious, and meaningless. Your successive revisons have only added verbosity and convolution without addressing the issue of inaccuracy and irrelevance. My point is that it is unnecessary and inappropriate for Wikipedia to include obviously false claims and inane reasoning by anonymous partisan bloggers. 216.160.109.205 04:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

not too partisan there on your part, hmm? I would say, the claims and reasoning of salon.com and daily kos are probably more notable, properly attributed, than your point of view. anyhoo, i am interested in npoving it, so I've chopped out a couple of the lesser points in deference to your remarks; i figure "the blogs say this; supporters say that" format should be a fairly npov description of what goes onGzuckier 05:16, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I am opposed to including obviously false claims and inane reasoning by anonymous partisan bloggers on either side. 216.160.109.205 06:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC).

Hi, I just have a question about one sentence: "confirming that the information was known to be secret; in addition making Novak's statement that he learned of Plame from another journalist seem to be unlikely given the time frames involved." Is there any source that confirms that Novak has stated that a journalist was his initial source? I couldn't find any on a cursory search on Google. Marie26 21:59, 2 October 2005

21 people possibly connected

The cast of administration characters with known connections to the outing of an undercover CIA agent:

1. Karl Rove
2. I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby
3. Condoleezza Rice
4. Stephen Hadley
5. Andrew Card
6. Alberto Gonzales
7. Mary Matalin
8. Ari Fleischer
9. Susan Ralston
10. Israel Hernandez
11. John Hannah
12. Scott McClellan
13. Dan Bartlett
14. Claire Buchan
15. Catherine Martin
16. Colin Powell
17. Karen Hughes
18. Adam Levine
19. Bob Joseph
20. Vice President Dick Cheney
21. President George W. Bush

http://www.thinkprogress.org/leak-scandal

Kevin Baas^{talk: new} 01:55, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

You left off Jeff Gannon. Zoe 05:25, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

My latest reversion

Someone asked on my talk page to explain my latest rv on this page. I thought the reason was obvious -- an anonymous editor had made massively POV changes without any explanation. It is obviously a POV characterization to move from "those who believe that someone in the administration's inner circle was responsible" to "anti-Bush bloggers who claim that someone in the administration's inner circle was responsible" for example. Again, I assumed this was obvious; sorry if I created confusion.==csloat 01:14, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

The people being referred to as "those who believe" are actually Kos and Grieve, who are in fact anti-Bush bloggers. This is not a POV characterization. Rather, it informs the reader as to the nature of the source. The last part of this section is nothing more than a specious argument derived from the partisan rant of these anti-Bush bloggers. It adds nothing to the factual or analytical content of the article. See the discussion above. My preference is to simply remove it (although I retained a brief summary of the legitimate issue), but another editor insists on reinserting it. If it's going to stay in, the source needs to be accurately characterized. Anonip 02:44, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

If those are the only two people who believe this then say "Kos and Grieve, two anti-Bush bloggers" or something of the sort. I am not trying to get in an edit war but seeing those changes by an anon source (you?) with no explanation, it was a red flag.--csloat 02:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

The fact that Mr. Nooniemouse believes that adding the words "falsely" and "partisan" and changing "believe" to "claim" is a step towards NPOV speaks volumes in itself. I deleted all the ancillary and corollary claims listed to try and reach some sort of compromise for NPOV and make him happy, but noooooo.Gzuckier 04:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

It's not that kos and grieve are the only two people with the same idea, they're just the two who best spell it out.

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Wilson talks off record about Niger, Plame identity leaked ...But because Powell was traveling with Bush aboard Air Force One, the memo is ... at some point during the flight sees the INR memo aboard Air Force One. ...www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Wilson_ talks_off_record_about_Niger,_Plame_identity_leaked - 41k - Aug 14, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

Plame Leak timeline - dKosopediaThe State Department's June 10 INR memo is located and copied. ... with Bush aboard Air Force One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_One), the memo is ...www.dkosopedia.com/index.php?title=Plame_ Leak_timeline&printable=yes - 57k - Cached - Similar pages

Sound off: Where the views and opinions of our staff and others ...... "A key department memo discussing Joseph Wilson's Niger trip was classified ... was apparently first delivered to Air Force One when George W. Bush and ...www.topplebush.com/oped2074.shtml - 34k - Cached - Similar pages

Sound off: Where the views and opinions of our staff and others ...Only after that did investigators hustle to seek Air Force One phone logs and ... was seen on Air Force One brandishing the classified State Department memo ...www.topplebush.com/oped2065.shtml - 48k - Cached - Similar pages

Memo May Hold Key to CIA Leak - Los Angeles TimesPowell had the memo with him on Air Force One when President Bush traveled to Africa on July 7, 2003, the day after Wilson's piece was published, ...www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/ la-na-memo17jul17,1,5664005.story?coll=la-news-a_section - Similar pages

Rove and Plame: The dog, unwagged George W. Bush's decision to ...The memo was reworked a bit and faxed to Powell on Air Force One on July 7, 2003. The AP, relying on the account of the retired official, said that the memo ...archive.salon.com/politics/war_room/2005/07/20/plame/ - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

The Raw Story | White House press secretary pummeled again on Air ...Aboard Air Force One / En Route Indianapolis, Indiana / 11:55 AM EDT / Press Gaggle ... They put out another memo today, with a top-10 Joseph Wilson lies. ...rawstory.com/news/2005/White_House_ press_secretary_pummeled_again_on_Air_Forc_0714.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Stygius: Bolton and the State memo... jury on the State INR memo that circulated oh so widely on Air Force One. ... the State Department memo about Wilson's wife is seen on Air Force One. ...stygius.typepad.com/stygius/ 2005/07/bolton_and_the_.html - 45k - Cached - Similar pages

Focus on State MemoGrossman sent the memo to Powell on Air Force One, including a "summary prepared by an analyst who was at a 2002 CIA meeting where Wilson's trip was ...uspolitics.about.com/b/a/187422.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar pages

July 27, 2005 Headlines | Plame investigators follow the memoHe told prosecutors that he never saw a classified State Department memo that ... State Department official reportedly saw him perusing it on Air Force One. ...www.vermontguardian.com/dailies/0904/0727.shtml - 19k - Cached - Similar pages

WSJ.com - Memo Underscored Issue of Shielding Plame's Identity... cabinet officials left for Africa, and the memo was aboard Air Force One. The paragraph in the memo discussing Ms. Wilson's involvement in her husband's ...online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB112170178721288385-uh1ILw_ RG4bAJGgqjdsNHxrYSNE_20050818,00.html?mod=blogs - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

TreasonGate: What Did Bush Know and When Did He Know It?... "A key department memo discussing Joseph Wilson's Niger trip was classified ... document was apparently first delivered to Air Force One when George W. ...www.yuricareport.com/Corruption/ TreasonGateWhatDidBushKnow.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

The ForumThe President himself might have read the memo and called the two aides. ... The only official on board Air Force One with the knowledge and ...www.markfiore.com/forum/comments.php?sid=3608& tid=42749&mode=flat&order=0&thold=-1 - 24k - Aug 13, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

Plame's Identity Marked As Secret on State Dept Memo | Air America ...A memo circulating on Air Force One the week before Novak outed CIA analyst Valerie Wilson clearly marked her name as secret. The memo is the suspected ...www.airamericaradio.com/node/425 - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

FOXNews.com - Politics - State Dept. Memo Outlines Wilson Niger TripThe classified memo was sent to Air Force One just after former US Ambassador Joseph Wilson (search) went public with his assertions that the Bush ...www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163000,00.html - 27k - Cached - Similar pages

Lemonblog: Leaning Away From Rove; Toward Fleicher?So, who saw the memo on Air Force One besides Colin Powell? Remember Karl Rove's statement to investigators that he first learned Valerie Plame Wilson's ...www.38ludlow.com/lemonblog/archives/000290.html - 15k - Cached - Similar pages

It's not just the Downing Street memoes [Archive] - OSNN ForumThe classified memo was sent to Air Force One just after former US Ambassador ... Powell had the memo with him on Air Force One when President Bush traveled ...forum.osnn.net/archive/index.php/t-78842.html - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

DCCC: Timeline of the LeakBecause Powell was traveling with Bush aboard Air Force One, the memo is ... Card was aboard Air Force One when the State Department memo identifying Plame ...www.democraticaction.org/firerove/timeline.html - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

The Agonist | thoughtful, global, timelyLAT - Prosecutors are asking whether anyone on Air Force One learned ... Memo May Hold Key to CIA Leak | 2 comments (2 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden) ...www.agonist.org/story/2005/7/17/234816/127 - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

Prosecutors zero in on memo for clues in CIA agent leak / They ...Powell was seen walking around Air Force One during the trip with the memo in hand, ... The prosecutors have shown the memo to witnesses at the grand jury ...www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/ c/a/2005/07/16/MNGJ8DOUOU1.DTL&type=printable - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

Plame’s identity marked as secret - washingtonpost.com Highlights ...Memo central to probe of leak spelled out information’s status ... 2003, as he headed to Africa for a trip with President Bush aboard Air Force One. ...www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8635385/ - 56k - Cached - Similar pages

and many more. Gzuckier 05:01, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Gzuckier, I'm not objecting to the entire section. Obviously the INR memo is an important topic. What I'm objecting to is the last paragraph which presents the specious argument that the memo circulated on Air Force One had to be the source of the leak because it was one of only two documentrs that mentioned Plame suggesting Wilson for the trip and the other (the Senate committee report) couldn't be the source because it was written after the leak. In fact, the original INR memo from which the memo circulated on Air Force One was derived also mentioned Plame suggesting Wilson for the trip, as did the original meeting notes on which the INR memo was based. So the assertion that the Air Force One memo and the Senate committee report are the only documents that could possibly be the source of the leak is demonstrably false. Your original statement that this (non-) fact implicates the Air Force One memo as the source of the leak and confirms that that the leaked information was known to be secret is thus clearly nonsense. Your subsequent weaseling of the wording simply rendered the argument incoherent, without correcting the inaccuracy or inanity. The "consistent with" wording merely indicates that the memo circulated on Air Force One could have been the source of the leak, which no one disputes. It doesn't prove that it was the source. And the fact that numerous anti-Bush partisans will choose to believe the worst about the administration is hardly noteworthy in itself. The last paragraph adds nothing to the factual or analytical content of the article, and should be removed. Anonip 07:03, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

It just seems to me that your points are more valid as replies to the body of "speculation" let's call it, than as reasons to delete the fact of the existence of such speculation. Would you support removing any reference to Bush's stated reasons for toppling Saddam if reasonable objections to them could be found? Or would you support the objections as addenda to the fact that Bush said ...? Gzuckier 17:03, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Separate section on Wilson's two missions

Am I the only one who feels the Background section of the article is top-heavy with needless debate and detail about Joseph Wilson and his two missions to Niger in 1999 and 2002? The text is needlessly confusing, and the narrative flow is broken by the flash-forward, flash-backward effect.

The basic confusion here -- which obviously needs to be noted somewhere -- is that there were two Niger missions by Wilson, which were related to each other. Mrs. Wilson did recommend her husband for the first mission. She was part of the team putting the investigation together, and she mentioned back in 1999 to her CIA supervisors that her husband had old contacts with officials in Niamey, and that he was going to Niger anyway. This first trip, which Wilson completed to the CIA's satisfaction, was an investigation of what an Iraqi government official may have said to a Nigerien official about possible business contracts, which the Nigerien official interpreted as uranium purchase contracts.

Because Wilson and his work was already familiar to the CIA from the 1999 mission, his name was at the ready when the 2002 mission was requested. Because the mission was prompted by developments coming from the White House, it was instigated by CIA higher-ups. Mrs. Wilson's role in her husband's second mission was to introduce him at a meeting to those CIA higher-ups before the mission began. Her presence at that meeting was noted by someone at a de-briefing session, after Wilson returned.

All of this squares with what Wilson has said all along, and with a reading of the Congressional report. It seemed to me early on that a kind of fog machine effect was going on, involving a deliberate confusion between Wilson's 1999 and the 2002 missions, and that fog machine was already turned on with Ari Fleischer's press comments on July 12 2003. We don't need any fog in this Wikipedia entry.

I will revise and simplify accordingly. In the end, I think a discussion of Wilson's two missions should be moved to a separate section further down in the article. Shariputra 16:09, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd suggest moving it off this page entirely. At this point, there is more stuff about Wilson here than on his own page. We could put Wilson and the whole controversy about Niger in his article and/or the Yellowcake Forgery article and just general background and links here... leaving this page to concentrate on the leaks and aftermath. --CBDunkerson 01:28, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it is fair to say that Plame's only role in her husband's second mission was merely to "introduce him" to the CIA higher-ups. According to a link Washington Post article which refers to the July 2004 Senate intelligence committee report:

The report states that a CIA official told the Senate committee that Plame "offered up" Wilson's name for the Niger trip, then on Feb. 12, 2002, sent a memo to a deputy chief in the CIA's Directorate of Operations saying her husband "has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." The next day, the operations official cabled an overseas officer seeking concurrence with the idea of sending Wilson, the report said.

Despite Wilson's claims that this is not a reccomendation, how can it be anything but? When I tell my boss I know someone who would be good for a specific job, that is a recommendation. This is EXACTLY what Plame did.

And the comments referring to a "fog machine" are obviously the type of partisan commentary that needs to be removed from a POV neutral discussion on the topic. --Goosedoggy 20:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Merging not valid

The person, Valerie Plame, and the scandal are distinct enough to merit keeping them separate, even if the former should be cut down to include only biographical information. -St|eve 03:28, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Judy Miller's book deal

Someone had a sentence about this and someone else asked that it be sourced and erased the sentence -- here is one source for the claim; should it be put back in?-csloat 08:53, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Moved Rove stuff in

There was a ton of Plame Affair stuff on the Karl Rove page. More than 80% of it was identical to the text here. I removed it all from that page and merged in the few differences here. The one section I didn't fully rework is 'Legal Opinions'. This seesm redundant with some of the existing text here, but not largely identical like most passages. I encourage others to merge the 'legal' sections or I will do so myself later. Thanks. --CBDunkerson 01:31, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Though this may be painful, I think this needs to be brought up again in the Rove article. I haven't bothered to return there as the partisan fighters all seem to be still smarting, but perhaps a braver soul could again try to remove the redundant material there? --NightMonkey 07:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Some of the editors over there aren't particularly interested in 'encyclopedic'... they want "one stop shopping" from a Google search on 'Rove' directly to all the info on the Plame Affair. Still, I have managed to whittle it down by chopping out all of the stuff not related to Rove (about half of it) and am planning to replace the long section of legal speculations with a brief summary of any actual legal repercussions for Rove once the indictments come down. That'll just leave the massively bloated 'denials and revelation of involvement' section to be trimmed to a summary once that kind of minutiae is no longer the subject of so much partisan zeal. --CBDunkerson 10:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Novak quote

I was curious why a high-ranking official in President Bill Clinton's National Security Council (NSC) was given this assignment. Wilson had become a vocal opponent of President Bush's policies in Iraq after contributing to Al Gore in the last election cycle and John Kerry in this one...During a long conversation with a senior administration official, I asked why Wilson was assigned the mission to Niger. He said Wilson had been sent by the CIA's counterproliferation section at the suggestion of one of its employees, his wife.

I appreciate that the above is quote but I think we need to find some way to clarify that Wilson I assume had not yet contributed to John Kerry's election campaign during the time of the leak Nil Einne 10:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC) Also I've just came across an old article suggesting Wilson in fact contributed to the 2000 Bush campaign as well. Can anyone confirm this? http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct3 Nil Einne 10:37, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Political contributions are public data, and several sites such as FECinfo provide this data in a searchable form, so we should be able to verify this. Oh, what the heck, I'll look. Here's what I found:

1) In the 2000 election cycle, Joseph C Wilson IV, of Charlestown Terrace, Washington DC, gave $1000 to the Bush for President campaign on 5-30-1999

2) In the 2002 election cycle, the same person gave $1000 to the John Kerry for President campaign on 9-4-2003

3) In the 2004 election cycle, the same person gave $1000 to the John Kerry for President campaign on 5-23-2003

I only found contributions for Bush and then Kerry. I didn't see any contributions to the Gore campaign. It's possible that I missed it though.

I don't know if this is the same Joseph Wilson as Plame's husband, but this should be easy to check. --Zippy 06:53, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Forgive me if this question is improperly placed. I have never edited in Wikipedia before and don't know where else to put it.

I am a little confused about the identification of Karl Rove as Novak's source under the "Novak Defends Himself" heading when contrasted with the "Novak's Sources" heading. The first section adds a comment to Novak’s “The CIA Leak” quote by putting forth the following about Novak’s first source:

“Fitzgerald's later report indicates that this official — "Operative A" — "helping" Novak was Karl Rove.”

I have been unable to find documentation of this assertion, but have, admittedly, not tried that hard. However, under the “Novak’s Sources” heading, the author states Novak’s second source is Karl Rove and that the first source (the one whom Novak claims is not a partisian gunslinger) is unknown. Also, the citations listed merely refer to the same Wikipedia article.

I understand this article is in a state of flux, but which source is Karl Rove – the first or second? Additionally, it would be quite helpful if a relevant citation was made and not just a reference back to the same article. - Chris B. 68.35.97.76 10:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't have a cite - I am going off of what I heard on NPR and am too tired to look it up - but my understanding is Rove is considered to be the first of Novak's sources, the one who is not a "partisan gunslinger". I guess as Bill Clinton would have said, it depends on what the definition of "gunslinger" is. Rove was identified as Operative A all over the news the day Libby was indicted, as I recall. Of course, we'll know lots more about this if Fitzgerald brings on more indictments. The smart money for Republicans, of course, is on Libby taking the fall, but experts (including John Dean) are predicting that Rove and possibly even Cheney will be up on the chopping block soon. Things could get very interesting very quickly. --csloat 11:16, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Csloat,

After having researched a bit, I would suggest you remove the “Operative A” entry within the Novak quote under the “Novak Defends Himself” heading. The comment is inaccurate and misleading. While “Operative A” does, indeed, appear to identify Karl Rove, it comes from Fitzgerald’s indictment of Lewis Libby (P.8, point 21 of the PDF (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/libby_indictment_28102005.pdf)) and is unrelated to Novak’s “[non]partisan gunslinger” assertion. As JWSchmidt has noted, Novak’s second source appears to be Karl Rove; the first source is still unknown and is almost certainly not Rove.

At this point, the information under the “Novak’s Sources” heading seems correct. - Chris B. 68.35.97.76 12:09, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The wikipedia Plame scandal timeline cites a 15 July 2005 New York Times aticle called "Rove Reportedly Held Phone Talk on CIA Officer" by David Johnston and Richard W. Stevenson. The Johnston and Stevenson article says that the second source was Rove. --JWSchmidt 14:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

rm: Tim Russert

Removed reference to Tim Russert to make it more clear that "Judith Miller of The New York Times," was the only person "who spent 85 days in jail for failing to divulge the identity of her confidential administration source to a grand jury."--FloNight 11:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Known grand jury witnesses

I added Judith Miller to Known grand jury witnesses List. Will spend a few minutes this morning checking sources to update the list. Will find sources for everyone on the list.--FloNight 12:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Added images to article

Just added Yellowcake, Scooter Libby, Patrick Fitzgerald, Karl Rove and Matthew Cooper to the article. Also added George Tenet, and moved plamefull down to next sub-section to accomodate. --NightMonkey 02:29, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Incoherent sentences

Wilson described the situation so, that one source told him, he avoided any talk about subjects, when he once met with an Iraqi official. And never understood what kind of commercial contact the official wanted.

This wants rephrasing to be coherent and grammatical, but I don't know the source material well enough to rewrite it myself. "avoided any talk about subjects" - what subjects? --Jim Henry | Talk 20:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Crazy news

It is becoming more widely reported that Vice President Dick Cheney may be directly implicated in this investigation. This would, upon reading this article, appear to require a major revamp of the core ideas represented here.

Boomberg, LA Times, Washington Post, The Independent (UK)

This would seem to indicate a need for less focus on Rove, and more focus on Libby/Cheney. --NightMonkey 21:36, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

And so... Cheney Told Aide of C.I.A. Officer, Lawyers Report, New York Times, October 25, 2005. I added Cheney to the list of those implicated, and added a reference link to this article. But, this article needs to be combed through to remove old recenetism from it, I believe. --NightMonkey 07:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Novak as a "pundit"

The word pundit is connected, I believe, with negative connotations. I wanted to point it out though, rather than just change it.

Wilson's Disinformation

They promote the related view that those White House officials who talked on background about Wilson were, rather than trying to punish him by exposing his wife, trying to prevent reporters from believing Wilson's disinformation. Why is it disinformation? Daemon8666 18:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course it isn't. It is proof of, at best, flawed information being used by the Bush admistration. Since apparantly (see Downing Street memo) Bush and co had already decided to invade, it is clear any information discrediting their stance was NOT welcome. Hence Wilsons story had to be defused. This is done by 1 implying nepotism (his wife) and 2 saying his story is disinformation. --Nomen Nescio 19:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks to Goethean for editing it Daemon8666 20:57, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

NY Times Article

"Aide to Cheney Appears Likely to Be Indicted in C.I.A. Leak Case "

http://nytimes.com/2005/10/28/politics/28leak.html?ei=5094&en=f4b9e5edc0a35fdf&hp=&ex=1130472000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

Is this enough to justify adding new content to the article?

Yeah, why don't Bush and Cheney resign from their respective positions within the U.S. government. All their ideas to get the U.S. back on track seem to revolve aroun imaginary chicken viruses that have only killed 60 people that may or may not have died of a chicken virus anyway. And now, this thing about f'cking a CIA agent, that's pretty bad, yeah, even worse than Clinton getting BJ's in the oval office. A BJ doesn't put an intelligence agent's life and job in danger.66.201.171.15

Really, this is just inflamatory and not helpful here. Can we remove this comment, please? --NightMonkey 23:46, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

18 USC 793 Violation?

In his press conference, Fitzgerald seemed to indicate that the thrust of his investigation was to determine if "section 793" was violated. § 793(f) states:

Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense,

(1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or

(2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

It seems to me that if the leaker committed any crime, it would be this one. Of course, no one was charged with it. Still, many laws are mentioned, and this one isn't. Descendall 16:52, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Plame was not covert.

A CIA leak implies there is something that is a secret. Plame was not covert at the time. So any mention of her would have not been illegal. The indictments at hand are for lying etc. before a grand jury, which was completely co-operated with by Libby. The question remains, if he was inconsistent in his testimony, okay, however if he was questioned with no crime being commited--then, is this nothing more than punishing someone for speaking inconsistently with the notes he (Libby) had turned in as requested? Point being....he has been charged with no crime based on his testimony for which he was originally called into question. He is being criminalized for what he did in committing no crime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.128.81.182 (talk • contribs) 13:04, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Welcome to Washington, DC, where the coverup is always worse than the crime. Also, See my above comment on 18 USC 793 Descendall 17:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

So you concede that at some point she was covert. By revealing her status, which was top secret, it endangered the lives of everyone who she dealt with and most likely blew the covers of numerous other NOCs. Try not to spout administration talking points when you're not logged in/registered and this is your only edit. --waffle iron 17:28, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

There is some debate over whether Plame had worked overseas recently enough to still be "covert" as defined by the IIPA. However, there is no question whatsoever that her employment by the CIA was still "classified". Leaking classified information is a different crime than leaking the identity of a covert CIA operative, but still a crime. Libby has been found to have made such a leak... the only thing preventing him from being indicted on that charge is the need for proof that he knew it was classified information when he leaked it. There is sufficient evidence of this (his comments about the leak being likely to cause problems with the CIA and his inability to discuss it over an open line) that I expect Libby WILL eventually be indicted on that crime as well. However, as Fitzgerald explained, two years of lying and obstruction delayed the gathering of evidence and preparation for a case on that crime... hence the new grand jury. --CBDunkerson 14:18, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

operative/agent

I am trying to write about this affair for the Hebrew Wikipedia, and I have a little linguistic problem: While in most of the text of this article Palmer is referred to as a "CIA agent" (a term which has a direct and common translation), Novak, in his original column, is referring to her as "an agency operative on weapons of mass destruction", a term that I am not sure how to translate.

So is there a difference between "agent" and "operator" in this context? If so, what is it? Thanks, eman 00:37, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The CIA generally uses the term 'operative' to describe someone who goes out into the field to investigate things and 'analyst' for those who review and compile intelligence information. Both can be 'covert' in that their employment by the CIA might not be public knowledge, but this is far more likely to be the case for an 'operative'. As for, 'agent'... the term simply means 'someone working on behalf of' and could thus be applied to either group, but is probably more often used in describing 'operatives'. --CBDunkerson 14:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Clarifications requested

"Many critics of the United States' invasion of Iraq say that the series of sanctions and diplomatic maneuvers were not made in good faith; that the Bush administration had evidently decided to invade Iraq shortly after the September 11 attacks, and that the WMD "evidence" was only found (or produced) in order to provide a pretext for an invasion that was already a certainty. (It should be noted that there was evidence, in some cases, of large-scale moves at some facilities that were scheduled for inspections.)"

I realise that many critics have said this, but do we have an article that goes into this in more depth? If not, could we source the main critics? As it currently stands it appears to be opinion leaking into the article.

Also, phrases like "it should be noted" are very much frowned upon as peacock terms. Could we rephrase this? - Ta bu shi da yu 01:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Also:

"Defenders of White House officials believe that Wilson, in a partisan way, initiated a smear campaign against the Bush administration. They promote the related view that those White House officials who talked on background about Wilson were, rather than trying to punish him by exposing his wife, trying to prevent reporters from believing Wilson's "disinformation." Opponents counter this argument by asserting that such officials would still have a duty to diligently avoid exposing undercover officers or other confidential information"

Blame where blame is due... who says this on both sides? - Ta bu shi da yu 01:44, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

central issue??

The article states "The central issue of the whole Plame affair is whether the officials who disclosed this information about Wilson's wife a) even mentioned her name and b) knew about her "covert" status before doing so."

(a) seems absurd -- "Ambassador Wilson's wife" pretty much identifies Valerie Wilson; it's not as if Wilson is married to several women. I realize some right wing talk show hosts have made this point, and it may even appear in republican talking points, but it's just ridiculous to cal it "the central issue". (b) is also not "the central issue"; certainly not now that we know Libby was running around inquiring specifically about her status. Can we just erase this misleading summary?-csloat 03:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm fine with removing a). However, regarding b), while the scope has widend with Libby's indictment, knowledge of her covert status is still in play, I believe. I think if Fitzgerald actually finds enough evidence in the course of his ongoing investigations to support actually indicting under the outing statute, he will do so. So, perhaps b) should be ammmended to reflect this. --NightMonkey 04:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

covert status

Someone just edited out some things based on the argument that VPW's covert status is "a matter of opinion." While I agree with some of the edits (see above), someone's covert status is a matter of definition, not of opinion, and it is quite clear that by definition, VPW was "covert." There may be a question about whether she qualified for protection under the particular law (which may require overseas travel - an issue independent of covert status). Nobody seriously questions whether or not she was actually covert except right-wing talk show hosts. It's generally agreed she had non-official cover status, which is "covert."--csloat 07:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

This is a definitional dispute. In common (and CIA) parlance VPW was "covert" because her employment was a secret. However, for the purposes of the IIPA the term "covert" is defined to include the 'undercover overseas assignment within previous five years' condition... which may or may not have been the case for VPW. In any case, her employment was "classified" and knowingly leaking classified info is ALSO a crime. I'd suggest we avoid the term 'covert' where 'classified' would serve as well, and explain the meaning of 'covert' being used when that term is required. --CBDunkerson 12:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

"Covert" is the appropriate term for an agent with NOC status; the IIPA definition is not accurate. It is meant to limit the application of that specific law, not to actually define the term. I suggest we use "covert" but add the necessary caveat only when directly discussing the IIPA. That is how the mainstream newspapers talk about the issue, for example. --csloat 16:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Photo caption

Since Plame is married to Williams, shouldn't her name be hyphenated as "Valarie Plame-Williams" or something like that? Pacific Coast Highway 00:54, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Transcript

Russ071404, do you really think that this transcript is such a vital and central aspect of the Plame affair that it must be included in the lead? Also, given that you are making assumptions about what Fitzgerald meant, doesn't it make more sense to briefly state the suspected meaning than to quote a large block of text? Finally, isn't it usual practice to put a comment on the talk page when reverting to explain the reasons and discuss possible compromise? --CBDunkerson 10:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I make no assumptions in the article. Rather, I merely quote the very relevant single Q&A about investigation status. Rex071404 ^{216.153.214.94} 10:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

What would be more apprpriate for the lead section would be something along the lines of the summary now in the "Indictments" section. The full transcript quotation, if used at all, should be in the body of the article. JamesMLane 10:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. By placing it up front we enable the readers to quickly get Fitzegerald's answer to a question regarding the likelyhood of any more indictments. Rex071404 ^{216.153.214.94} 10:53, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

You assume. The assumption I referred to before is that this IS relevant. I don't think the passage quoted implies that future indictments are unlikely. Indeed, from what I've seen I think it likely that more indictments will be filed. However, since that IS an assumption I don't think it belongs in the article at all at this point. Ditto this bit, but if it were properly placed and/or explained it wouldn't be much of an issue and could be replaced with the actuality when it eventually comes to pass.

I think guesswork should be kept to a minimum in articles... certainly not given several paragraphs in the lead. --CBDunkerson 10:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. By placing it up front we enable the readers to quickly get Fitzegerald's answer to a question regarding the likelyhood of any more indictments. Rex071404 ^{216.153.214.94} 10:53, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Wow, there's an echo in here. Of course... you haven't really supplied his answer. You've supplied a small portion of his answer. Which you apparently take to mean there won't be more indictments or that they are unlikely... despite the fact that he said he couldn't comment on that one way or another. --CBDunkerson 11:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Stop using the "-Gate" suffix.

Aside from acknowledging it as an alternate name for the scandal, there really is no need to use such a loaded and idiotic term. It's the same kind of bias that follows FOX News labelling suicide bombers as "homicide" bombers.

The only institution with a penchant for it is network news, which habitually label every scandal with a -gate suffix for reasons that strike me solely as a lack of creativity.... and really, we're a lot more objective than those sensationalistic idiots aren't we? Kade 21:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

• YES, YES, YES! I don't think it needs to be included at all. Not in the opening, and not in the "notes" section, which can be deleted since it only repeats the opening, but with the additions of "CIAgate, Rovegate, Treasongate, Traitorgate, and Plamegate". The article would do better without this mumbo jumbo. --Sigorni 23:38, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

• It doesn't go here, that's for sure, but people who really can't stop thinking about it that way may want to make sure it's in the list of scandals with "-gate" suffix. That would be the proper way to vent your obsession over the terms. Jacqui ^★ 23:46, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

In the Notes section, there's a duplicate mention of the term Plamegate -- is this intentional/useful? Also, I recently noted a use of the term Plameout in a newspaper -- although the term Plameout seems unique, should it be added to the Notes section? AnonUser 16:33, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

No one uses "plame affair" - plamegate is more common. Removing it is POV. Stirling Newberry 17:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Confusing introduction

The introduction to the article is confusing (the first paragraph is a single convoluted sentence!), and doesn't make sense to somebody who isn't already familiar with the subject. I know everything is probably explained in the remainder of the article, but the introduction is supposed to give a basic overview.

I'm pointing this out because I haven't been following current events for a while, and I'm totally in the dark on this topic... like future readers and the target audience for this article.  :) --Foofy 22:35, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

verified the intelligence from multiple sources

1. "Later investigations (the Butler Report in the United Kingdom and the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report of July 7, 2004) verified the intelligence from multiple sources that indicated Iraqi attempts to purchase the material."

If this is true, then wikipedia should list the dates of these "attempts". Is there any evidence that the "multiple sources" were based on anything other than the the false claims about an Iraq/Niger uranium connection? --JWSchmidt 14:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

It's really misleading - it is likely that Iraq asked to buy uranium and that Niger responded 'no.' The way it os written it looks like there is confirmation of furthur discussions between the two parties, which is bogus.--csloat 17:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

What I have read is that there was one or more visits by people from Iraq to Niger in 1999. Apparently, once the cherry picking was done, this turned into "intelligence from multiple sources" indicating that, "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." I think that the words "verified the" in sentence #1 (above) should be changed to, "repeated the unverified claim that there was" --JWSchmidt 22:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Zel's Conspiracy theory

The conspiracy theory of Zel Miller is already discussed under "Reactions of Congress" - we don't need additional links to it, nor for it to be represented as a more widespread belief among others.--csloat 03:00, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The theory does not belong to Miller alone. Victoria Toensing is writing about it as well as people at LA Times. A short synopsis of the criticism of Plame belongs in the Intro. RonCram 04:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I have not seen this conspiracy theory associated with her; I have only seen her claiming that the law she helped write does not apply to VPW. Can you provide other sources? I also agree with the stuff below; Wikipedia really isn't a place for this kind of speculation, but I will refrain from deleting it since I know if I remove it the vigilant defenders of Libby/Rove/etc. will jump up and down screaming POV about it. But in any case there is no reason to put it in the intro - this is hardly a theory accepted by anyone credible that I am aware of.--csloat 06:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Wilson telling the truth

Some seem to feel the need to claim that Wilson distorted information. This is really POV unless you can provide evidence of that statement. So, explain what it is Wilson said and how that is incorrect, or else leave the statement out as it is not true! This means no reference to an op-ed but actual statements made by Wilson in regard to the Niger documents and the facts as we know them today!

Secondly, refrain from inserting conspiracy theories. They are entertaining but not meant to be used on Wikipedia. If you do feel the need for speculating, please use your blog!--Nomen Nescio 03:04, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

How can there be a rule against discussing conspiracy theories? The "Plame affair" arises from two great mysteries: how the WMD capacity of Iraq was systematically misrepresented for a decade and why members of the Bush administration have tried to prevent people like Joe Wilson from asking questions about how that systematic misrepresentation led to the invasion of Iraq. The obvious "conspiracy" is that many governments feared Saddam and secretly worked to topple his government after the Gulf War while pretending to play out the UN disarmament game. Ths led to systematic biases in intelligence handling and misrepresentations of Saddam's WMD programs. There is also the "reverse conspiracy" theory that Wilson was part of an effort to falsely claim that members of the Bush Administration had consciously manipulated intelligence so as to gain support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. These two conspiracy theories are part of the current political dialog and wikipedia must include them. --JWSchmidt 05:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps they should be addressed - certainly the first one is an object of much discussion on all sides of the political fence and deserves discussion. The claim that Wilson and his wife are trying to singlehandedly destroy an entire Administration is sheer fantasy, but the fact that a Senator articulated it should be included - though not prominently, and it should not be given the veneer of credibility that it is given in this article. I hesitate to get involved in any edit wars about it since this is an ongoing controversy - I have a strong feeling that after the investigation is concluded we will know a lot more about it and these silly conspiracy theories will be laid to rest -- possibly much earlier since the Senate will be reevaluating some of its conclusions about Wilson (many of which have already been decisively refuted by many sources; see for example Larry Johnson's comments). But in any case I'm not going to go in and balance every bogus edit people like RonCram have been adding to this since we will have plenty more information about it all quite soon. Of course, the Roveistas will no doubt have their own spin on things at that time, especially if new indictments are handed down, but there will be far less need to pretend to take them seriously when the dust around this has settled.--csloat 06:15, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

There are many questions surrounding the Niger documents. These result in people trying to make sense of it all. That is not my problem. But a theory must be presented as speculation and NOT fact, and it should at least contain factual references which are correct. Any theory should explain what is happening today to be possible.

As to both theories: 1 Bush & co covering up for "lying" about Iraq, there is ample evidence the Bush administration at least made statements contrary to the truth at a time they were well aware they were wrong.[7] (i.e. Fitzgerald clearly finds Cheney discussed Wilson with Libby before Cheney said he never heard of Wilson in an interview, the allegation about SH working with OBL was already proven wrong yet kept being used, many Governments did not share the believes of the Bush administration -although this argument is still being advanced- hence Bush withdrew the motion for an explicit UN reolution for invading Iraq: think of France-Germany-resignation of members of the Blair Government, this is proof that "the world" did not altogether share the narrow vision of the Bush team, et cetera) Furthermore, this view would explain the reluctance of Congress to investigate the handling of intelligence by the US government, not allowing the UN inspectors to do their work, the obsession with legalities (new definition of torture, resisting "the Hague") by the Bush administration. 2 Regarding Wilson being a part of the CIA trying to insert the previous theory. Strangely enough several statements are used which are clearly false. Think of Wilson misrepresenting the truth. What part of his statements is not true, where did he ly and could you supply us with proof of that?

What I am saying is that although many theories are possible, Wikipedia is no soapbox. If one has to mention a theory it must be clear it is a theory. Second, not every possible theory should be mentioned, but only those based on what is known, the presented theory must be credible. So, any theory contradicting fact or leaving out any fact should not be mentioned. Those speculations are clearly POV and not part of Wikipedia.--Nomen Nescio 14:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

"any theory contradicting fact or leaving out any fact should not be mentioned" <-- It is not clear that we have the facts in hand. It is clear that not everyone agrees what is a fact and what is a fabrication. The people who have access to the raw Niger-related intelligence have had the luxury of selectively leaking the information that they wish to portray as facts. The government officials who have access to the records of how intelligence was handled during construction of the Bush administration's case for war have not been open about how decisions were made about what intelligence to reveal to the public. It is inevitable that people will speculate and that speculation is part of the story that wikipedia must tell. --JWSchmidt 21:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course, we are not privy to all the details. However, speculation needs to be credible. Otherwise I will insert my personal believe that space aliens are behind it. Meaning that any theory must be based upon facts that are known. If one says Bush lied, at least one has to show some misrepresentation of the facts, or inconsistencies. If there is to be a CIA plot, please show where Wilson lied. At least use some solid foundation for your claims. You don't have to prove your theory, but it cannot be a total fabrication.--Nomen Nescio 04:03, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat's unnecessary reverts

First, when I leave a reference, it is not Original Research. Second, by changing the section title, we can include criticism by committees and not just pundits. Please have a good reason before you make changes to my edits. RonCram 06:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

There are already sections for the reactions of the Senate and of other people; the reactions of pundits seem to belong there. The Committee should be a separate section as it is not reaction to the plame affair per se. It trivializes the senate committee conclusions to include them in the same section as the reactions of various pundits. The "original research" I was referring to was the claim that Vallely's memory is poor, which may be true but appears to me to be your own speculation rather than something backed up by evidence. I'm also not sure why any of this is necessary.--csloat 07:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Senate conclusions

I have a question about the following, added by RonCram:

In March 2003, the IAEA declared certain documents alleging a sale of uranium from Niger to Iraq to be forgeries. The Senate Select Committee criticized Wilson for saying his trip to Niger had proved the documents to be fake. Actually, Wilson was not given any information about any documents about prior to the trip to Niger because the documents were not yet in the U.S. (Pages 44-45)

Perhaps this is my own confusion, but I was under the impression that Wilson's article claimed that his trip to Niger did not confirm that Saddam purchased yellowcake, not that he was the one who found the documents to be forged. Can someone other than Ron enlighten me here? (of course Ron should feel free to add his comments too but I would like to hear from someone less one-dimensionally partisan who has been following this... not to question Ron's good faith, despite his belief in "MindWar"; I just think his ideology often seems to cloud his interp of facts). Thanks.--csloat 07:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, I gave the page numbers for the Senate Report where the criticism is found. All you have to do is read it yourself. BTW, I believe it was in Wilson's testimony before the committee when he claimed to have disproved the documents and not in the op-ed. I could be wrong. Memories are fallible but at least you have the citations so you can look it up yourself. As always, I am committed to truth. RonCram 14:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

This is inconsistent with everything I've read about it being recently reported, and I just listened to a piece on NPR yesterday or the day before where this claim was specifically responded to. I realize that is what the Senate report says but it seems to be incorrect. On the NPR show they had Wilson specifically agreeing that he did not have the documents prior to going to Niger. They had some other people on saying that the Senate report mischaracterized Wilson's earlier claims. In the editorial that started it all clearly admits that he didn't see the documents but heard on the news that they were forged -- the substance of the editorial is not about the documents being forged but about the fact that Wilson spoke to everybody who would have had knowledge of such a transaction and concluded that there was no evidence for it. The news was already reporting them as forgeries according to that editorial of July 6 2003. It seems to me to be a complete red herring to focus on proving that Wilson was not the one who figured out the docs were forgeries when he never seems to have claimed that. I'm open to being convinced that Wilson distorted this, but I don't see the evidence for it here. As for your final sentence -- I believe you, even more now that I better understand your notion of "truth".--csloat 21:28, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

"Wilson was not given any information about any documents about prior to the trip to Niger because the documents were not yet in the U.S." <-- This statement is not even a correct sentence, it is illogical and it is contradicted by Wilson's own account of what he was told by the CIA. Wilson claimed in his original trip to Niger article that the CIA told him about "a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake....by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's". It is not logical to assume that Wilson was not told about the documents before they were in the hands of US intelligence. According to Tenet, the CIA had been getting intelligence reports about these documents since 2001. --JWSchmidt 21:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Wilson's distortion of the facts

Earlier someone edited my comments about Wilson's distortion of the facts and requested proof. Of course, if they had only read the links I had provided, they would have had the proof. Because it was requested, I have expanded the description of Wilson's distortion and misreporting. I do hope people read the links before deleting the information this time. See also the section "Criticism of Plame/Wilson." RonCram 14:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

A series of unusual events (including reports Wilson openly talked of his wife's job at the CIA) have led critics of Plame/Wilson to view the Plamegate affair as a covert CIA operation by a rogue agent (or perhaps Agency) designed to pull down a sitting president. [8] Plame's husband is thought to have played a key role by "misrepresenting" the intelligence he gathered on his trip to Niger. Wilson learned the former prime minister of Niger had been approached by an Iraqi delegation seeking "expanding commercial relationships" which the PM interpreted as seeking uranium. Wilson then published his op-ed piece claiming his trip disproved the story Iraq sought uranium. [9] In addition, if any CIA employee had published information on a classified trip, it would have been illegal. Critics are calling for a new "Plame Rule" that will prevent CIA employees from circumventing the law through their spouses. [10]

What part of this clarifies the misrepresentation? No example is shown. Second, references are meant to verify what is being said, not to explain. Strangely enough your version of the references is a narrow interpretation. As I read it the CIA might also be incompetent, this is left out in your story. By selectively quoting you are at risk of misrepresenting the original article. Furthermore, what has any legal challenge of Wilson to do with his story being true or not? Such an argument is ad hominem and must be removed. To me, this entire statement is POV, no facts are introduced, merely opinion.

To prevent an edit war please correct your contribition, so that it contains not merely a statement but an explanation of what you mean by it. Should no explanation of this "misrepresentation" be advanced I will remove this clearly POV contribution.--Nomen Nescio 15:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I would add to this that if this information is included, the people making the various claims -- Miller, Boot, and Toensig -- be named rather than ascribing these (3 very different) views to "critics". At the very least, identify them as openly partisan ideologues who have been accused of distortion on this issue.--csloat 21:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I moved this piece to a separate section on conspiracy theories at the end of the article. Neither the White House, not the Special Counsel have made any such allegation. It is also worth noting that Wilson's original report was made through official channels and was clearly intended to warn the government that the Niger story was suspect. Had the administration heeded the warning, it would have been spared significant embarrassment, so it strains credulity to portray that report as a hostile act. How were Wilson and Plame supposed to know that the President would ignore their report and cite African yellowcake in his State of the Union address? Also the Special Counsel specifically stated in the indictment that Plame's CIA status was not common knowledge at the time of the leak, contradicting the reports cited. --agr 19:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Good idea; thanks!--csloat 19:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Clarifying Wilson's Distortions

Nomen, I clearly stated the information on Wilson's distortions was now located in the "Criticism of Plame/Wilson" section. Since you were not able to find it, I have reproduced it for you here.

Wilson was criticized by the Senate Select Committee on PreWar Intelligence because he claimed his trip to Niger proved that Iraq was not seeking uranium from Niger. Actually, the former Prime Minister of Niger told Wilson that a delegation from Iraq did meet with him in June 1999 to discuss "expanding commercial relations," which the prime minister took to mean a desire to purchase yellowcake uranium. The prime minister let the matter drop due to UN sanctions against Iraq. (Pages 39-44)

In March 2003, the IAEA declared certain documents alleging a sale of uranium from Niger to Iraq to be forgeries. The Senate Select Committee criticized Wilson for saying his trip to Niger had proved the documents to be fake. Actually, Wilson was not given any information about any documents about prior to the trip to Niger because the documents were not yet in the U.S. (Pages 44-45)

I hope this helps. RonCram 22:04, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron please read the comments above about these passages. I am sure Nomen is well aware of them too. This is a red herring. It's obvious you have not yourself even read the Wilson editorial you are so mad about. He never claimed to have proven the documents fake. What he did was talk to everyone in Niger that would have known about such a transaction in order to investigate whether it existed. The news was already reporting that those documents were forged. Perhaps you did read the editorial but you are ignoring the facts that are inconvenient for your worldview, to continue your practice of "MindWar." It's quite telling that you prefer innuendo from a discredited source (general vallely's smear of fitzgerald, which you just added -- should we add every crank who says something silly about this case?) to facts such as these.--csloat 23:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Criticism of Plame/Wilson in Intro

The following passage belongs in the Intro:

A series of unusual events (including reports Wilson openly talked of his wife's job at the CIA) have led critics of Plame/Wilson to view the Plamegate affair as a covert CIA operation by a rogue agent (or perhaps Agency) designed to pull down a sitting president. [11] Plame's husband is thought to have played a key role by "misrepresenting" the intelligence he gathered on his trip to Niger. Wilson learned the former prime minister of Niger had been approached by an Iraqi delegation seeking "expanding commercial relationships" which the PM interpreted as seeking uranium. Wilson then published his op-ed piece claiming his trip disproved the story Iraq sought uranium. [12] In addition, if any CIA employee had published information on a classified trip, it would have been illegal. Critics are calling for a new "Plame Rule" that will prevent CIA employees from circumventing the law through their spouses. [13]

This is not redundant but provides an introduction to the fuller accounts in the appropriate sections. More of the information in this section is not repeated in any form in the article. Readers of Wikipedia articles should not be forced to read the article before learning of criticism of the main players. Please do not delete this passage again. RonCram 21:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Please see above Ron, this stuff belongs in the conspiracy theory section only, not the intro. It is crap spewed by a few right wing loons; it is not supported at all by the Prosecutor or even the White House. There is no reason to duplicate silly and obviously false conspiracy theories all over this article. The intro should only provide info that is accurate and confirmed and clearly summarizes the info below; your changes make this fringe material seem as if it were actually credible.--csloat 21:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry but a section with the denigrating title "Conspiracy Theories" is not NPOV. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. The page is not supposed to be a shrine to Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson. As for this being fringe material, I cited the Wall Street Journal, LA Times and an article by former Senator Zell Miller. These are mainstream publications and a well respected Democrat, a former governor and Senator. This belongs in the Intro and you know it. RonCram 22:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

It definitely does not belong in the intro. It's 'fringe' (not based on mainstream reports), based on opinion pieces only, and is unsubstantiated. Let's keep on point here - Wikipedia is not a talking points platform, nor a means of character assassination. Corroborate it with independent fact (the pieces/sources you provide are opinions - not fact). -- RyanFreisling @ 22:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Ryan, here are the facts. Wilson and Plame are controversial figures. They have been criticized in mainstream publications across the country. Opinion pieces are quoted in articles throughout Wikipedia. When people or events are controversial, an introduction to the issue is found in the Intro. There is nothing fringe about LA Times, Wall Street Journal or Zell Miller. If you want to prevent readers from learning this information, you are going to have to come up with better reasons that you have given so far. RonCram 22:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron please read what vandalism is before throwing around accusations. The criticisms you wish to hilight are already mentioned in the article and do not belong there twice. They are from fringe sources -- the LATimes and WSJ do not endorse these opinions; that is why they are op-eds. And quit whining about censorship; the info is already in the article and nobody is preventing readers from learning anything. --csloat 23:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

All I wanted to do was suggest factual information being used. In stead of mere speculation, that is shaky at best. Clearly RonCram cites all kind of articles but fails to provide information of how Wilson's statement that SH did not seek uranium is false. Since that is the central theme of this article I would think that, as has been mentioned, all RonCram is doing is muddy the waters. Of course, we could discuss Wilson's cheating in high school (joke, I don't know if he did) but that still would not disprove his report that the uranium claim was invalid. Again he might want to read something about logical fallacies.

As to the current version, it seems to reflect a more unbiassed view. Facts and speculations are presented, so everybody should be able to live with it.--Nomen Nescio 01:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, deleting interesting and informative information for reasons of censorship is the moral equivalent of vandalism, regardless of whether the vandal bothers to leave a vacuous entry on the Talk page or not. You well know there is nothing "fringe" about LA Times, Wall Street Journal or Zell Miller. Op-eds are used in Wikipedia all the time. Your attempt to change the standards when you want to censor the information is patently bogus. Your claim the entry is redundant is similarly bogus. My entry was general in nature as befits an Introduction. If you applied the same standard to the rest of the Intro, it would be blank. I suggest you show some good faith and stop deleting this entry. Wikipedia readers have a right to this information. RonCram 23:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron: Please read the WP entry on vandalism, especially the section entitled What vandalism is not. Zel Miller is definitely fringe, as are Boot and Toensig -- you are just trying to mask that by using the names of the papers they wrote their editorials in. And for the last time, I have not deleted this information; I have just put it where it belongs on this page. There is no need to put every fringe theory in the intro; we should stick to stuff that is actually part of the mainstream discourse on this topic -- if even the White House has not suggested this bizarre theory in its defense, it does not belong in the intro. I realize it makes you feel morally superior to accuse me of "censorship", but that claim is simply at odds with my actions.--csloat 00:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, okay, I reread it. What I took as "page blanking" vandalism is really an "NPOV Violation." I understand this is a lesser offense. Zell Miller has been elected as both governor and senator. He has spoken to both the Democratic and Republican conventions. He is the most middle of the road politician I can think of. He is definitely NOT fringe. He is fiery maybe... but not fringe. I know less about Boot and Toensing except Toensing helped to write the law protecting covert agents. The main point is that op-eds are subject to editorial review. Op-eds based on known lies do not often get published. The facts underlying the op-eds I cited are not in dispute. If the facts were in dispute, you would have disputed them by now. Instead of taking the honorable road of disputing the facts, you call the writers "fringe" and banish the Introduction to a section labeled with the derogatory term "conspiracy theories." This is one of your favorite tactics which does you no honor. If you want to debate the facts, fine. Start debating. Otherwise, stop your silliness and allow the passage into the Intro where it belongs. BTW, does you above comment mean you will stop censoring valid entries? RonCram 14:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron I have never censored valid entries. Please stop you phony posturing about my "honor." I have been debating the facts, and I have censored nothing -- I simply moved this fringe material out of the intro, because it doesn't belong there. If you think Miller is "middle of the road" that just shows how far to the right you are. You probably think Lloyd Bentsen is a leftist? Op-ed pieces are not fact-checked as reporting because they are not reporting -- the pieces in question are sheer speculation on the part of individuals with an axe to grind. And they are properly referred to as "conspiracy theories" -- loony ones, in fact, since they are beyond unlikely. Why do you wish to censor their authors' names? Perhaps in order to blame them on the newspapers that published them?--csloat 23:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Nomen, I am not sure what to say to you except please read the entries below from the Senate Report. I think you will find them both interesting. RonCram 23:37, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Clarifying the Senate's Criticisms of Wilson's Distortions

Please note that Wilson is criticized by the Senate Committee specifically for what he told the Committee staff, not what he wrote in his op-ed piece. That does not mean the op-ed piece is not worthy of criticism but only that the op-ed was not in the purview of the Senate Committee. After reading the way editors have mangled the text I originally wrote, I think it is helpful to reproduce here the appropriate passage from the Senate Report. Evidently, other editors were not able to find it on pages 44 and 45.

When the former ambassador (Wilson) spoke to Committee staff, his description of his findings differed from the DO intelligence report and his account of information provided to him by the CIA differed from the CIA officials' accounts in some respects. First, the former ambassador described his findings to Committee staff as more directly related to Iraq and, specifically, as refuting both the possibility that Niger could have sold uranium to Iraq and that Iraq approached Niger to purchase uranium. The intelligence report described how the structure of Niger's uranium mines would make it difficult, if not impossible, for Niger to sell uranium to rouge nations, and noted that Nigerian officials denied knowledge of any deals to sell uranium to any rouge states, but did not refute the possibility that Iraq had approached Niger to purchase uranium. Second, the former ambassador said that he discussed with his CIA contacts which names and signatures should have appeared on any documentation of a legitimate uranium deal or signatures that should have appeared on any documentation of a legitimate uranium transaction. In fact, the intelligence report made no mention of the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal or signatures that should have appeared on any documentation of such a deal. The only mention of Iraq in the report pertained to the meeting between the Iraqi delegation and former Prime Minister Mayaki. Third, the former ambassador noted that his CIA contacts told him there were documents pertaining to the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium transaction and that the source of the information was the (redacted) intelligence service. The DO reports officer told Committee staff that he did not provide the former ambassador with any information about the source or details of (Page 45) the original reporting as it would have required sharing classified information and, noted that there were no "documents" circulating in the IC (intelligence community) at the time of the former ambassador's trip, only intelligence reports from (redacted) intelligence regarding an alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal. Meeting notes and other correspondence show that details of the reporting were discussed at the February 19, 2002 meeting, but none of the meeting participants recall telling the former ambassador the source of the report (redacted).

Now several points are clear from this passage:

• The Senate Committee was highly critical of Wilson's distortions
• The CIA could not explain the source of some of Wilson's comments
• Wilson described his trip "as refuting both the possibility that Niger could have sold uranium to Iraq and that Iraq approached Niger to purchase uranium." The claim does directly against his actual report of a 1999 conversation between the former Prime Minister of Niger and an Iraqi delegation seeking "expanding trade" with Niger - a meeting the PM understood as seeking uranium.
• Wilson told Senate staffers that he told the CIA what names and signatures should be on any purchase agreement for uranium and yet the DO report does not contain that information.
• Wilson claimed his CIA contacts told him about "Yellowcake documents" and told him the source of the documents was a third country's intelligence service. The DO reports officer denied given that information to Wilson because that would have required sharing classified information and there were no "documents" circulating in the intelligence community at that time.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding about why the Senate Committee was so critical of Wilson. RonCram 22:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron the documents are mentioned in Wilson's editorial because they were already in the news at the time. It is nonsensical for the Senate to refute him as the source of discovery of the forgeries when that information was already known and when he did not claim to discover the forgeries -- I see nothing above contradicting that. I am not opposed to putting what the Senate said in here, but it should be put in context, especially when the way you put it makes no sense in context of what is actually known. Anyway, I don't think anyone is trying to erase mention of this report.--csloat 00:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, you don't get it. And I have to admit, the Senate Report is difficult reading and I get confused too at times. (I am going to correct my comments above so they are more accurate and clear). The Senate did not criticize Wilson for his op-ed piece. Please reread the passage above and see that I am right on that. Wilson reported one thing to the CIA (which was the basis of the DO report) and then when the Senate investigated, Wilson exaggerated his report. A wikipedia editor loused up the article to make it look like the Senate was criticizing Wilson for his op-ed piece and even wrote that the Senate was wrong to criticize Wilson. That is factually inaccurate. Wilson did not discuss with the CIA what names and signatures should be on any purchase documents and he was wrong to exaggerate to Committee staffers to say he did. Wilson should not have known what country's intelligence service was associated with the documents. The CIA denied telling him and we still do not know how Wilson came into possession of that knowledge.

The Senate Report does not criticize Wilson's op-ed piece per se but it does point out that the then current ambassador to Niger would not let Wilson talk to any current Niger officials because the current ambassador had already had those discussions. So Wilson really learned nothing about more "recent" events. The Nigerian officials would be expected to deny it anyway, even if they were involved. Anyone who reads Wilson's op-ed piece will see that Wilson claimed to have spoken to current Niger officials. That appears to be contradicted by the Senate Report and common sense. RonCram 13:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Clarifying the CIA's Grade of 'Good' for Wilson's Report on Niger

If the Senate Committee was critical of Wilson, why did the CIA give his report a grade of "good?" What does "good" mean? Does that mean many senior political people read his report? I have selected a few passages from the Senate Report to answer these questions.

Page 46

The CIA's DO (Directorate of Operations) gave the former ambassador's information a grade of "good," which means it added to the IC's body of understanding on the issue... The possible grades are unsatisfactory, satisfactory, good, excellent, and outstanding, which according to the Deputy Chief of CPD, are very subjective... The reports officer said that a "good" grade was merited because the information responded to at least some of the outstanding questions in the Intelligence Community, but did not provide substantial new information. He said he judged the most important fact in the report was that the Nigerian officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Nigerian Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium, because this provided some confirmation of foreign government service reporting.

Also-

DIA and CIA analysts said that when they saw the intelligence report they did not believe that it supplied much new information and did not think that it clarified the story on the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal. They did not find Nigerian denials that they had discussed uranium sales with Iraq as very surprising because they had no expectation that Niger would admit to such an agreement if it did exist. The analysts did, however, find it interesting that the former Nigerian Prime Minister said an Iraqi delegation had visited Niger for what he believed was to discuss uranium sales.

Because CIA analysts did not believe that the report added any new information to clarify the issue, they did not use the report to produce any further analytical products or highlight the report for policymakers. For the same reason, CIA's briefer did not brief the Vice President on the report, despite the Vice President's previous questions about the issue.

I hope that clears up some common questions. It cleared up several for me. However, I am still not certain why the CIA did not brief the Vice President when he was interested in the issue and the report clearly confirms that an Iraqi delegation was seeking uranium in 1999. I believe the CIA made a poor choice there. RonCram 23:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The Bush administration cherry picked intelligence, the Senate report cherry picked its findings and you are cherry picking the Senate report. Who was in the "Iraqi delegation" that traveled to Niger? List the names. On what dates were they in Niger? List the dates. Who did they talk to and what did they talk about while in Niger?

What we know is that a political leader in a uranium-producing country once reminisced about Iraqis and his assumption that they would be interested in uranium. Obviously (to cherry pickers) this means that, "Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa".

"they did not believe that it supplied much new information" - so what? We know that the US ambassador to Niger had already reported the same conclusion that Wilson came to. Wilson's report confirmed the idea that there was no reason to think that Iraq could get uranium from Niger. Wilson's report confirmed that no evidence could be found in Niger to support the idea that Iraq had tried to get uranium.

What happened was that the Vice President repeatedly demanded evidence from the intelligence community to support the conclusion that Iraq has WMD, he made clear that the only accepted answer was "yes, Saddam has WMD". Is it any surprise that some analysts ignored all the evidence that said Iraq could not have gotten uranium from Niger? The only surprise is that the Senate report ignored how political interference in the intelligence analysis process distorted perceptions about Iraq and led to a Congressional authorization of the invasion of Iraq. For RonCram to say that Wilson's "report clearly confirms that an Iraqi delegation was seeking uranium in 1999" indicates that he has little objectivity on this issue and is pushing an absurd point of view that is only supported by the partisan wish that it could be shown that Iraq had a nuclear weapons program. --JWSchmidt 13:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

JW, Wilson's trip to Africa was criticized by some in the CIA before he went. They did not see the purpose of his trip because we already have an ambassador in country and any Niger officials involved in a sale to a sanctioned country would be expected to lie about it anyway. Despite that, the CIA sent him. When Wilson arrived, the ambassador told Wilson he could not talk to any current Nigerian officials, but he was allowed to talk to former officials. The only bit of news in Wilson's entire report was that an Iraqi delegation had come to Niger in 1999. Uranium is Niger's only export and the Iraqis were not there to sell anything. The Prime Minister took it to mean the Iraqis wanted uranium and no one disagrees with his assessment. Why else would they want expanded trade?

By the way, President Bush's 2003 speech did not claim the Iraqis bought uranium in Africa, only that they sought it recently. While Wilson's trip did not speak specifically to "recent" events, it does show that Iraq had been wanted uranium in 1999. That was (rightly in my opinion) seen as evidence that tended to confirm the report that Iraq had recently sought uranium in Africa. The Butler Report makes clear that Iraq was still seeking uranium in 2002 (at about the time Wilson was in Africa) from both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo. I invite you to read the conclusions of the Butler Review.[14]RonCram 14:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I have two things to say to RonCram. 1 READ logical fallacy, and more specifically ad hominem. 2 As to the Butler report, we had a discussion about that, and for some reason you forgot to respond to my question reqarding your position. Which again you repeat without addressing the obvious inconsistencies in your reasoning. Feel free to clarify the issue on that by answering my questions there.--Nomen Nescio 16:08, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Nomen, I am well trained in logic and logical fallacies. I did not make a personal attack against you. Regarding your previous questions, I occasionally get blocks of time where I can spend a few hours editing Wikipedia. Sometimes those blocks are separated by a week or more. When I come back to Wikipedia, I may not remember to look for a previous conversation. You should not expect my lack of response to be either my bowing to your superior logic or state of embarassment on my part that prevents me from responding. Regarding the Butler Report, the classified information available to the people responsible for the Butler Review is far greater than you may imagine. They are not required to declassify information to satisfy your or my curiosity about how the conclusions were reached. It is possible that declassifying that information would expose credible informants who are still in place. People are jumping to politically motivated conclusions when the facts run exactly counter to those conclusions. Wilson went to Niger and learned the Iraqi delegation was seeking expanded trade, which can only mean uranium. In spite of that finding, Wilson wrote an op-ed piece that said Saddam was not seeking uranium in Africa. The Butler Report finds that Saddam was seeking uranium as late as 2002. I do not understand why these facts are hard to understand. RonCram 22:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course, you did not attack me. What I meant is that you keep addressing things that are not relevant, which constitutes a logical fallacy. Wilson claimed SH did not seek uranium, that is the only statement you should comment on. Is he sent by his wife, does the entire world know she works for the CIA, is he a liberal, et cetera? These are interesting suggestions, but in no way contradict the statement: SH did not seek uranium. Hence all these arguments constitute a logical fallacy.

Your conclusion which can only mean uranium, is speculation, not fact. Making a case based upon such assumptions is yet another logical fallacy. Having a theory is one thing, but please remember not many would repeat that claim. To my knowledge the most recent meeting would be in 1999, which hardly constitutes an "imminent" threat in 2003.

As to the Butler report, you are right, there is the risk for these "sources." However, it is also possible these "sources" do not exist. There is no way of knowing! History (Falluja only this week remember) has shown both the British and US have been wrong in their presentation of certain "facts." Be it an honest mistake or a flat out lie, it warrants a more critical approach. So, show me the evidence for every statement. Furthermore, you also fail to explain why the Butler report is more reliable than the IAEA, CIA or even the US administration which have discredited the uranium claim as incorrect. This selective use of references is once again a logical fallacy. Or more to the point, did SH seek uranium? If you keep saying SH sought uranium you must provide evidence, and a singular statement (Butler report) which cannot be verified is no evidence in my opinion. For this I refer to the scientific method. --Nomen Nescio 07:07, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Nomen, everything I have stated is relevant. The only bit of information the CIA found useful from Wilson's trip to Niger was that Iraq sought uranium in 1999. Yet Wilson failed to mention that when he wrote his op-ed. Iraq had not had any weapons inspectors since 1998, so by 2002-2003 it was impossible to know how far along Iraq had progressed in their effort for nuclear weapons. The CIA, which vetted the comments of Colin Powell before the UN, thought Iraq's nuclear ambitions a real problem. However, the CIA was skeptical of the yellowcake story based on discussions the US ambassador had with Niger officials. You seem to confuse these two facts. Just because the CIA was skeptical of the Niger story does not mean they did not consider Iraq a possibly imminent nuclear threat. The IAEA was able to falsify the Yellowcake documents. However, the Butler Report did not depend on the Yellowcake documents. The Butler Report clearly has its own intelligence sources that show Iraq sought uranium both in Niger and Democratic Republic of Congo. You continue to confuse the British intelligence that was confirmed by the Butler Review with the forged Yellowcake documents. I fully understand your desire to know the source of the British intelligence. However, answers to all of our epistemological questions are simply not possible when dealing with classified information. RonCram 16:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

How is the role his wife might have played, and other ad hominem attacks, relevant to the statement SH did not seek uranium?

Iraq had not had any weapons inspectors since 1998, so by 2002-2003 it was impossible to know how far along Iraq had progressed in their effort for nuclear weapons. Does this not constitute an admission that no recent information was available? And ipso facto, "imminent" could not be concluded?

The CIA, which had vetted the comments of Colin Powell before the UN, thought the danger in Iraq was imminent. As I remember it, the CIA repeatedly removed the uranium claim out of speeches because they were not convinced of its veracity. However, you are correct they failed to do so in the State of the Union. How that happened is open for debate. Tenet fell in his sword, yet since he was the one removing the same claim previously and repeatedly, it does not convince me. As you know, only recently has the investigation into the use of intelligence by the Bush administration been forced by Democrats to be concluded within an acceptable timelimit.

You clearly seem to miss the point regarding the Butler report. How do we know the Brits are telling the truth? For some strange reason you accept their statement as fact.Whatever the reason for not advancing their sources, you are trusting people on good faith, although it has been proven that many other statements (by the US and UK) were not correct. This is why I insist upon PROOF, not conjecture. Evidence is exactly what your point of view is missing. So, I am not stating the Niger documents are the source, but merely observing that there is NO verifiable evidence to the contrary. Which leaves both your suggestion and mine open as possibility. I stress possibility, since that is not the same as fact.

Furthermore, if the Butler report is correct and SH did seek uranium, why is everybody else convinced SH did not? Again, if SH did seek uranium, why did the US retract that statement?

Maybe it would help my understanding if you answered these questions directly, and not try to explain your POV. --Nomen Nescio 17:35, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Even if one accepts the Butler report at face value, it doesn't help the White House with the central question in this matter: why was Mrs. Wilson's CIA affiliation leaked and why did the White House lie about the leak? If, as the Butler report claims, there was classified intelligence supporting the president's African uranium statement, the WH could have simply answered Ambassador Wilson's criticisms by saying that while he didn't find anything to support Sadam's interest in African yellowcake, British sources did. Instead, the WH retracted the African yellowcake claims and started its leak campaign against Wilson. And Karl Rove is still a key member of the WH staff, despite keeping silent while the WH ridiculed any possibility of his and Libby's involvement in the leak. --agr 19:48, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Once again RonCram forgot to answer my questions. Therefore I will answer them for him, because there are not many possibilities.

Wilson could not find evidence of SH seeking uranium in Niger. How does the role his wife played alter that statement? How does any CIA plot alter that statement? How does Plamegate alter that statement? It does not. Because all these allegations are a form of "shooting the messenger." By discrediting Wilson, one tries to discredit his report. However, since his person is not relevant to the information he provided, such distractions are called a logical fallacy.

As to the question did SH seek uranium? He can answer: 1 yes he did, because the Butler report says so. However, this has to mean the Bush administration was in error when it retracted that claim. Better yet, it would mean the IAEA, UN, CIA and many other intelligence agencies around the world are wrong. Odd to say the least. 2 The other answer could only be: the Bush administration, the IAEA, UN, CIA and many other intelligence agencies around the world are right. But then, the Butler report would have to be flawed. Either way, RonCram has to explain this contradiction. Which of course he would rather not. So, he plays it save and refrains from answereing at all.

Is there any solid evidence for the uranium claim by the British? No, there is not. This could be because they do not want to reveal their "sources." But nobody can guarantee they exist at all. They are impossible to verify. As recent history has shown, there has been such an abundance of "flawed" statements, it would be irresponsible to take this claim at face value.

Was the State of the Union based upon the Niger documents? No, because it was based upon British information. Why did the Bush administration retract that clearly correct statement? Here the previous contradiction is evident. Either the claim was incorrectly removed, therefore Bush made a mistake in dismissing its veracity. Or, it was correctly removed, which can only mean that the Butler report is wrong.--Nomen Nescio 02:38, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Bob Woodward

Looks like Bob was leaked Plame's identity a month before it was public (June 2003).CNN.com has an article on it. --waffle iron 20:17, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

This is huge. What Woodward's deposition says, in summary, is:

1. Woodward knew of Plame one month before Novak did.

2. Libby was *not* his source, but he refuses to reveal who it actually was.

This puts "high crimes and misdemeanors" back in play. Who was the person who put Plame's name into discussion? I wonder if Woodward will go to jail for refusing to divulge his source? --NightMonkey 07:51, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

And now, from the New York Times: New Disclosure Could Prolong Inquiry on Leak, and Woodward's statement on the Washington Post's site. --NightMonkey 10:49, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

"distortions"

it is some weeks since i have looked over this section. (I was, of course, prompted by the recent Woodward remarks). It was a shock to see how much it has been moved toward a bushists talking points piece. Sad really. For at certain stages it was a really useful document. Are there simply more running dogs of the current regime out there, or are careful historians just thin on the ground. I would point, for example, to the use of the word "distortions" in the piece, which now, as far as i can see, almost exclusively refer to statements of fact that contradict the Libby/Rove line. sad indeed.86.42.132.16 22:24, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be a concerted campaign by pro-Rove wikipedians to riddle the VPW-related articles with Bush talking points. I have tried to address these but they just keep at it. I wonder what they will be saying when Fitz comes down with the next series of indictments in his investigation. It is tragic to see the Rovistas going out of their way to smear Valerie Plame Wilson, whose only crime was trying to do her job defending this country. And they do all this just to defend a lame duck president. They are playing politics with national security, exactly what they accuse democrats of doing. Bizarre.--csloat 20:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Legal Questions

At the end of the first section in [15]Legal Questions

This may be seen by Bush's political opponents as setting precedent for the prosecution of similar leaks, and Karl Rove is likely to face greater consequences than Randel if indicted for violating Section 641.

It would appear to me that it is more important that Fitzgerald might see it as legal precendent.

In fact it probably is seen by Bush's political opponents as such.

Also while Rove would most certainly face consequences (at least until pardoned ..) if indicted under that statute, he would only face greater consequences than Randell if convicted, not just indicted for such a violation.

Anyway just something that stuck out to me.

Is it okay if I say well done to those who have managed to compile a very balanced dry account of what we know so far in this affair despite the ghost of ronnie trying to scupper the NPOV -- theaulddubliner 04:19, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

FOX more authoritative than crooksandliars.com

Twice I have corrected the erroneous claim Vallely and Wilson were not in the Green Room together and twice my edit has been reverted quickly. FOX News has put this false claim to rest after reviewing their own records. There is no reason to quote a website when it is wrong. I have retained the URL as a reference for interested researchers but the quote does not belong. Wikipedia is not a source for every false report that shows up on the internet. RonCram 19:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

FOX is not unbiassed in this matter. Therefore I don't see why their statement necesseraly must be true, or "authoritative." On top of that, having both explanations is more informative, meaning less one-sided. Since there is debate as to what version is correct I think it would be only fair and balanced to let either side have their say.--Nomen Nescio 19:50, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Based on the title of this section I assume that the posting is meant to be satire. Correct? Guettarda 20:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Having read RonCram's contributions, and his reluctance to take a definite stance on my questions earlier, I fear the title is in earnest as is his believe, contrary to what even the Bush administration says, SH did seek uranium.--Nomen Nescio 20:16, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Nomen, the other side did get their say. Their error was duly noted and the reference to the article was retained. There is no reasonable question as to who is more authoritative on the question of who appeared on FOX News than FOX. It is ridiculous for you to argue otherwise. I am certain that even liarsandcrooks.com is willing to admit that FOX is more authoritative. FOX would not have made the statement if it was not demonstrable. WIkipedia is not bound to quote in full every error a website makes. No doubt the person at liarsandcrooks.com thought he or she was being thorough, but either did not have access to all the relevant facts or quite a few appearances. Wilson himself has not said he was not with Vallely. The Bush Administration has not said that Saddam did not seek uranium. The Intelligence Community firmly believes SH sought it in 1999. In addition, they privately have confidence in the findings of British Intelligence but the British do not share those sources and so the US has not been able to confirm the British Intelligence. For that reason, they stopped making the claim prior to the war. RonCram 02:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed that someone else has decided to revert my edit. In doing so, they not only have reinstated an obvious error, but have removed the statement by FOX that proves it is an error. When people do this, it proves they are NPOV. This is a simple violation of Wikipedia rules. Wikipedia is not bound to quote every website, especially when it is in error. If the error had become historically significant, then it should be quoted. This error is not. And the proof of the error should not be removed under any circumstances. RonCram 03:04, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

You are correct that FOX has better knowledge as to who was on their shows. However, that is not the issue. I meet hundreds of people, in the train, at work, supermarket, et cetera. You can easily prove I have met so and so. To state I have talked to them is an entirely different matter. In stead of ascertaining who met who, the real question is (and once again you avoid it through your use of logic) has Wilson discussed his wife with these people? That can not be established by FOX's records. To explain whether such an exchange of information is credible both versions are essential. So they NEED to be mentioned to elaborate why it is or is not possible/credible for Wilson to have shared the information about his wife. Contrary to your POV it has not been proven Wilson talked about his wife! Since you insist on an evidently POV version of history I can't help correcting your misrepresentation of the facts and speculations. If you continue to insert biassed contributions without discussing it first, I must conclude you are unwilling to present an equally balanced case. Or in other words, refuse to remain NPOV.

SH did seek uranium in 1999. This is not our discussion. Your point and that of the Bush administration, based on the Butler report(?), is that he did so in 2002! If you now accept this date is not correct, and in stead the real date was 1999, this surely means the "imminent threat" sounds rather strange as it was based upon FOUR YEAR old information. Heck, you might even insert the statement he "recently" used chemical weapons upon his people. This too is correct, if you - as with the uranium claim- fail to mention it is not based upon recent revelations. The Bush administration repeatedly claimed SH was actively seeking uranium in 2002, and mushroom clouds were about to appear in the US. Since the relevant information was at least four years old one has to conclude these allegations could not be supported with recent evidence. This is exactly what Wilson said.

You either fail to use your ratio on account of gullability or you are absolutely stubborn. Why should we believe the Butler report!!!!???! Please, remember statement after statement after statement being factually incorrect. On what grounds do you know the Butler report is correct? --Nomen Nescio 04:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Nomen, you are changing the subject. The liarsandcrooks.com entry says it was not possible for Vallely and Wilson to meet. I proved it was possible with the FOX story. Yet you deleted my entry and replaced it with something you KNEW was an error. Now you are admitting FOX is more authoritative than liarsandcrooks.com but that FOX could not know what Vallely and Wilson discussed. That is not the point. That was never the point. There are many people that claim Wilson has discussed his wife with them. Evidently, Wilson was a very open person who talked about himself and his wife quite a lot. By the way, I emailed liarsandcrooks.com to let them know that FOX had corrected their error. Perhaps now we will see if they are willing to correct it themselves.

I am glad to see you have finally come to the realization that SH sought uranium in 1999. Most people who realize that see it as support for the view SH sought uranium in 2002 as well. The report by the former Niger PM coupled with the classified information discussed in the Butler Report is enough for me. You ask why we should believe the Butler Report, it is because we know SH sought uranium in 1999. You do not want to believe it, so no amount of credible evidence will convince you. For me, it is far better to err on the side of national security than to have another intelligence failure like 9/11. As Condi Rice said "We do not want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." RonCram 14:26, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

LOLOLOL at your quotation of Condi's stupid incendiary quotation, that even she is embarrassed about. As for the FOX vs. crooksandliars.com, the fact is they do not disagree over the details -- both agree there were a number of times that the two were there on the same day -- the difference is crooksandliars actually looked at the times they were on the show and concluded that there was only one time they were on the show close enough to each other to actually have talked (and even then was 15 minutes apart). As I recall there was also information there about how small the green room is at fox and how it would have been unlikely to do more than exchange pleasantries; certainly not enough time to get into their wives' secret job. It's all so stupid anyway; if Wilson was bragging like this guy says he was, why did none of their friends, neighbors, and relatives have a clue what she did? People who presumably got a chance to talk to both Wilson and his wife for much more extended time than a few minutes in the green room.--csloat 21:50, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, not true. FOX and crooksandliars.com disagree over the details. FOX says they were on within 15 minutes of each other on TWO occasions and that they could have met in the Green Room on NINE occasions. I do not know how many occasions they actually met but the point is that Wilson has NEVER disputed they fact they met in the Green Room or that they had discussions of a personal nature. The former CIA agent, Jack what-his-names, also says he was in the Green Room with Vallely and they had plenty of time to talk. They never talked about wives of personal matters because Wilson is the one who brings those subjects up. This is a ridiculous point since Wilson does not dispute the conversations happened. RonCram 07:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

FOX has in no way advanced any evidence of the claim Wilson discussed his wife. Even IF the meeting took place, this still does NOT prove the allegation he outed his wife. The crooksandliars piece shows that even if a meeting took place it would be highly unlikely, if not impossible, Wilson had such a conversation. This needs to be mentioned to balance your POV contribution.

You keep missing the point. Did SH massacre his people? Did he use chemical weapons? Was he working on a nuclear plant? Was he ignoring UN resolutions? Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! There you have it. I admit you are completely correct in stating these things. Now lets look at my statements. 1 The Bush administration claimed he was working with Osama Bin Laden and he had Weapons of Mass Destruction, most notably he was about to make an atomic bomb: the infamous cloud. All this in 2002! 2 Wilson said there was no evidence to support the Niger claims. To be absolutely clear: SH has done horrible things, and I do not dispute that. Yet what is in dispute is that SH was seeking uranium in 2002! This he clearly did not! You have a different view of this for which you unfortunately still fail to provide solid evidence.

You evidently have flawed logic. The fact SH sought uranium in 1999 in no way proves he did so in 2002. Example, a suspected burglar is standing in front of a judge, today 2005. He is found guilty because in 1999 he was convicted for the same thing. The judge explains: "No we have no solid evidence you did it today, but we can prove you did it in 1999 therefore you are guilty." I hope you see the inconsistency in this. So, no it has not been established SH sought uranium in 2002, contrary to you POV.

As to me not wanting to believe. You are correct. Having seen the disaster of Iraq based upon "incorrect information," I think it is wrong to believe more allegations. Today I demand evidence, so I don't have to believe but know what is being said is true. --Nomen Nescio 04:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Nomen, you have a penchant for finding flawed logic where none exists. In a court of law, previous convictions are admissible evidence because they point to a pattern of conduct or modus operandi. In similar fashion, it is common for the court of public opinion to look at previous actions when judging certain situations. I am NOT saying the fact SH sought uranium in 1999 proves he did so in 2002. I AM saying that the fact SH sought uranium in 1999 would be evidence that would tend to confirm other evidence (like the Butler Report) that says he sought it in 2002. My problem with Joe Wilson is that he KNEW that SH sought uranium in 1999 and yet he wrote an op-ed piece claiming he had disproved the story that SH wanted uranium in 2002. Wilson did not disprove anything. The one fact he learned tended to confirm that SH was looking for uranium. Do you see the point now? RonCram 08:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron please review this article and indicate where Wilson claims to have "disproved" anything. Thanks. --csloat 09:45, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron, for some reason you still fail to address the obvious. How does modus operandi prove anything if it is all you've got? Contrary to your assertion there is no verifiable evidence SH sought uranium after 1999. You keep referring to the Butler report, yet fail to explain why you find it impossible to even contemplate the suggestion that the Butler report might be wrong. Mistakes are made (and we know many were made regarding Iraq) but for some inexplicable reason you refuse to even accept that that could be happening here. To me it sounds dogmatic. --Nomen Nescio 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

New article by La Repubblica

A large section of material was added to "CIA Conspiracy" that seems completely irrelevant to the CIA. The article used as a source is written in Italian, a language I cannot read to verify its contents. Secondly, without access to the article, there is no way to check the logic used. Can we just wait until some English language paper picks up the story to see if it really fits here? If it is a big story, someone will pick it up. RonCram 14:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron we discussed this on another page and you slinked away in embarrassment. I'm sorry you cannot read Italian, but that alone is not a good reason to impugn the translation of another editor. There is certainly a way to check the logic and translation -- learn Italian, or find someone who knows it, if this is so important to you. I am not speaking to the details here, just to your bogus logic that because you don't know another language that anything translated from that language is automatically suspect. What I think should be done is the original passage in Italian be included alongside the translation; but it is bogus for you to demand that it be removed until an English source picks it up (or, presumably, until you take Italian lessons).--csloat 21:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

If La Repubblica is correct this shows the CIA has not been involved in setting up the Bush administration. To me this is relevant to the allegation. Since you are anxious about using this info I have inserted more references. Among which a translation of the articles. Hope this sufficiently explains why this is warranted.--Nomen Nescio 04:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, I did not slink away in embarrassment. I've never done anything to be embarrassed about. As you know, I sometimes do not make it back to earlier conversations. Whenever possible you try to score points on this fact, but my life simply does not allow me to revisit every discussion on a Talk page. As I said before, if this article was important and valid, it would be picked up by a major English news source. Citing a source in a foreign language is a process that is more complicated (by necessity of a translation), making the interpretation more difficult and is subject to mischief by the translator/interpreter. The translator may or may not be exercising NPOV. The translator may not be competent to translate/interpret. And there are no checks and balances on the process. I fear that Wikipedia will become a laughingstock for publishing articles based on poor translations. csloat, you have complained previously when a conservative writer from a US publication wrote something damaging to your POV and you demanded that the story be picked up by a major news outlet before it appear in Wikipedia. I thought your position was bogus then. But this story is is far more obscure and unconfirmed that the US story. And the relevance is not at all established. I am trying to be kind to everyone involved. Please do not make me become anymore blunt. RonCram 07:22, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I am not making you do anything Ron. Don't criticize me for the content at issue here -- I said clearly both here and on the Joe Wilson page where you made this demand last time that I am not commenting on the content (I have not even looked closely at it). My comment was on your flawed logic that claims that translated entries should be deleted as suspect. If you have reason to suspect the translation, let's hear it, or get an Italian speaker to check the translation; you don't just delete it for that reason. Perhaps the person who translated it to begin with can help you with it. This has nothing to do with the notability of the article, which I have not commented on; you're the one trying to "score points" here by pointing to a phony contradiction. And I was not trying to score points when I said you slinked away embarrassed -- I thought that's what you did because I thought that was what was warranted by the situation. It's what I would have done had I gone to a page and demanded that something be changed because I was too ignorant to understand it -- imagine if I (a nonscientist) were to go to, say, this page and demand that the equations be removed because I did not have the mathematical training to check if they were correct!--csloat 09:40, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, when you say I "slinked away embarrassed," it is offensive in the extreme and requires you to make a judgment that you are not capable of making. Don't do it again. Your comparison of the Italian article to mathematical equations does not obtain. I must continue with my complaint that a citation of an Italian article in an English language encyclopedia makes little sense. RonCram 15:59, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron I apologize for any offense. If you did not slink away in embarrassment, I guess what I was saying is that you should have. That you continue to insist that your ignorance of other languages is a realistic justification for excluding information that has been helpfully translated into your own language is even more embarrassing. But I am not trying to insult you; I am just saying that if it were me making such ludicrous arguments, I would certainly be embarrassed. In terms of the substantive issue at stake here all you have to say is that my analogy "does not obtain." I'm not sure what that means but I think the comparison was pretty clear. In any case, I urge you to look up wikipedia's policies concerning material translated from other languages yourself. I don't speak Italian either, but I am not going to use my ignorance of that language as an excuse for trying to censor quotes that I don't like, especially when they appear in English.--csloat 19:58, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, I am amazed at you. You apologize for one offense and then go out of your way to commit a greater offense. For one who has complained that I did not practice Wikiquette, your behavior does not measure up. I did not complain that my ignorance is justification for excluding information. I stated that I did not and do not think an Italian source should be cited in an English-language encyclopedia. If Wikipedia's target audience was international scholars, then I would see no problem with it. In addition, I do not trust the translation or the interpretation assigned to this article by the editor who posted it. I am not here accusing him of bad faith, although the process of allowing people to use foreign language sources could quickly get out of hand and be open to mischief. How would you like it if I began to link to Arab newspapers and provided my own translation? RonCram 09:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

don't be so sensitive, Ron; I'm not trying to offend you but I do find the argument laughable. I must be honest about that fact, but my feelings are directed at the argument, not you. Do you read Arabic, Ron? You do have a point -- I have seen you misread articles in plain English often enough that I would not trust your translation of anything political. If you have specific reason not to trust the contributor's translation, that would be an analogous situation, but you haven't articulated one. But I still would not demand that the translation be removed because I did not understand Arabic. It would be my burden in such a situation to demonstrate that your translation was faulty, preferably by finding an Arabic-speaker to check it. Demanding that it be removed is just childish, and that is why I thought you should have been embarrassed. Again, no offense intended here, really. And as far as the process getting out of hand, that is not the case. Flag suspicious translations in talk or dig up an Italian speaker on the Italian version of Wikipedia. Wikipedia does have a policy on this and it allows such translations provided that they are accompanied by original source language material so anyone can verify the translation. One more thing on the point about linking to Arabic newspapers; that is already happening when you link to memri (I am not accusing you of excessive links to memri, just making the point) -- those articles are translated by someone with a particular agenda and viewpoint, and they are often translated in a particularly one-sided manner (and of course the selection of articles alone is one-sided). This is well known by Arabic speakers who read memri, and it is not a controversial point. Nonetheless, I have no problem with links to memri because as distorted as their worldview might be, the translations attempt to be accurate, and they are not pulling things out of thin air. A translation from RonCram (assuming you read Arabic) would be no different from this -- while I do not trust the way your ideology shapes your perceptions and your ability to read something, I don't think you would just make crap up. Anyway I'm going on too long about this; sorry to have offended you, but I do think the argument is ultimately just silly. If you suspect a translation is bad then do the research to critique it rather than demanding that it be removed.--csloat 11:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Since Ron disagrees with the interpretation and translation, maybe he can give his view of how to read this and this.

As to his suggestion that the MSM are more reliable and we should wait for them to report I have two considerations: 1 Why should Fox News be more reliable than The Guardian or American Prospect Online? 2 Recent history (past 5 years!) has shown the MSM are not overly zealous in covering stories that are potentially detrimental to the Bush administration. So, to wait for them might result in unnecessary delay.--Nomen Nescio 16:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Adding additional facts and making POV neutral

I don't know if I am doing this right but here goes. View my differences with the current version.

Line 5 -- summary? Edit 1: Clarified that it is federal government employees who cannot divulge the identity of NOC agents. This is why neither Novak nor any of the other journalists are in legal jeopardy.

Line 20 -- discussion Edit 2: Unilaterally is not necessary and is inflammatory (non-neutral POV). Removed the term and it conveys the same information.

Edit 3. U.S. government officials have been presenting evidence that Iraq has been reconstituting his WMD program for years, not months. This is substantiated by public reports presented to Congress as well as numerous testimony to the U.N.

The U.S. presented "evidence" not a "theory". The term "theory" is non-neutral. A theory was postulated from the evidence.

The "theory" that was presented was that Iraq had reconstituted it's WMD programs, not necessarily that they had stock piles of weapons. THis is the wording in all of the CIA reports to Congress. The POV in the current article is not neutral.

The term "found (or produced)" is clearly inflammatory and non-neutral. Quoting the term "evidence" is clearly inflammatory and non-neutral. I re-wrote and provided source material.

Changed "Many" to "Some" for more neutral POV. There are many critics of the Iraq invasion. Only some of them believe that the evidence was manufactured. It is non-neutral to present the conspiracy theorists as the majority of the critics.

Edit 4. Changed "The original intelligence" to "Some of the original intelligence". The forged documents are not the only evidence as is shown by the British goevernments reliance on obviously still classified material. The evidence that was made public has been refuted. The neutral POV (facts only) is that the theory was that Iraq was trying to obtain Uranium "yellowcake" from Africa. There was a specific questions of whether there was evidence he actually made purchases of yellowcake from a specific country in Africa (Niger). That one specific piece of evidence of a Niger purchase has been refuted but the original theory that he was trying to obtain Uranium from Africa is still supported by other evidence.

Edit 5. Changed "Signs" to evidence.

Edit 6. Added the actual mission of the arms inspectors. The UNMOVIC was charged with verifying Iraq's disarmament. To say they found no evidence of a programme hides the real mission which was to verify that the programmes had been destroyed. The inspectors El Baradei and Blix were very careful to say they found no evidence of either the programme's or the destruction of the programme's. The were very clear that they did not beleive that Iraq was complying with the resolution. The POV in the current article only highlights one aspect of what the inspectors said.

LIne 37 -- Edit 7. Added the contrarian point that Wilson's wife recommended him for his trip the Niger. THis was for balance and neutral POV.

Edit 8. Added the british government position. It should also be edited to say "Africa" instead of "Niger" as that is what the State of the Union speech says. It is presumptuos to say that all Iraq's attempts to acquire Uranium from Africa was confined to Niger or that the British Government was confining itself to Niger when it says Africa.

Line 52 --

Edit 9. The townhall document used for the quote is no longer there. Replaced it with the Washington Post article.

Edit 10. Added the information that Tenet's widely circulated report on Niger did not reach Congress or the Administration. Added the Tenet press release reference that says this.

LIne 65 -- Edit 11. Added the CIA view of Wilson's report and added the Washington Post story for the cite.

Edit 12. For balance, added the actual mission of the arms inspectors to ensure that Iraq offer evidence that it destroyed it's WMD programs.

Added the distinction of Africa from Niger and also clarified what the concern about Iraq re-constituting it's nuclear program.

Edit 13: Added that the conclusion of Wilson's report is also disputed, not just the role of his wife.

Edit 14: Added the clarification that the final decision to send wilson did not rest with Plame.

Line 81: Edit 15 Clarified the position of the administration in that mentioning Wilson's wife was to dispute Wilson's claim that the VPs office had sent him. More neutral POV and accurate than the one currently presented.

Thanks for the clarification. Please sign your additions to the talk page using four tildes. I have problems with some of your edits, so please respond below if you can --

1) do you have a source for the claim that only federal employees are not allowed to expose NOCs? The law was written specifically because a journalist had exposed CIA agents (not NOCs) so it seems odd that it would be written to exclude journalists from being able to violate it (and in fact the damage to national security is just as bad no matter who actually exposes the agent's identity).

It looks like it was updated correctly since I posted. The actual language isn't federal employee, rather it is someone authorized to know it, discloses it (i.e. has a secret clearance). It is not necessarily a federal employee but it does exclude journalist who don't have or want security clearances. Tbeatty 00:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC) tbeatty

2) I don't thimk it's acciurate to say that anyone was presenting "evidence" of Iraqi WMD (for years or months) when in fact no such evidence has ever materialized. This should be changed to speculation or something on that order.

It is accurate to describe what was presentat as evidence. What is mistaken is the conclusions that were drawn from the evidence. For example, some of the phone converstations that were intercepted is evidence. The aluminum tubes were evidence. But concluding that the WMD programs were reconstituted was mistaken. Even if the Niger documents were authentic, it would only be evidence, not conclusive proof. But there is a ton of evidence. Enough evidence that not a single CIA analyst concluded that IRaq had not reconstituted it's WMD program. But there were dissenters about specific dual use items. For example, the aluminum tubes oculd be used for rocket bodies as well as the nuclear use. Some CIA analyst did not think they were for Nuclear programs but they still believed Iraq had reconstituted its WMD program. Read the reports to congress and you will see statments like "all" analysts, "some" analysts and "most" analysts. INterestingly enough, it seems that Plame was very high in the CIA list for WMD analysts and she is most likely one of the "all" analysts who believed that Iraq had reconstituted its WMD program. Tbeatty 00:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC) tbeatty

3) "Many" is more appropriate than "some" when talking about the people who believe that the Bush Administration lied -- a majority of Americans now believe the "evidence" was manufactured, according to polls. You're editing from a pre-2004 mindset ;)

I still think "some" is more appropriate. If you imagine all the Democrats being critical of the war, I don't think "many" of them think the evidence was manufactured. In fact, I don't know of any that have publicly claimed this as fact although they want to investigate it. Even the polls don't show that people believe the evidence was manufactured. THis is different than believing they were mislead. Tbeatty 00:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC) tbeatty

4) Can you tell us what other evidence besides the forged Niger documents shows that Saddam was purchasing uranium from Africa? That has already been discussed here and nobody was able to come up with a reasonable answer. What other countries do you think Saddam sought uranium from, and what evidence exists of such attempted purchases?

The claim from Britain was that it was "Africa". Only the Niger documents have been made public and have been show to be forgeries. Yet Britain still maintains the "Africa" connection. And they are very careful to say 'Africa' where the press seems to want to interchange Africa and Niger. I can only conclude there is other evidence that points to another African country or that there are more Niger documents that remain classified that the British still maintain. Suspect countries could be Namibia or South Africa. Britain would have a reason to keep evidence about both those countries classified because a British company is the main mining company in Namibia and political ties to South Africa. South Africa illicitly sold Uranium to Iraq in 1988 through Uday Hussein. It seems that if Uday contacted South Africa to reopen that connection, it would fit the definition of what Britain is claiming. Tbeatty 00:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC) tbeatty

5) It is not "neutral" to report things that are well known to be false, such as that Wilson's wife sent him to Niger. We know it is BS, the CIA has said it is BS, the State Department has said it is BS, the Bush Admin no longer makes that claim; the only people still making that claim, to my knowledge, are right-wing hacks. It is reasonable to say that a few right wing hacks are spreading such disinformation but we don't need the disinformation repeated 4 times in the article. It was already there before your edits.

I don't think I claimed that his wife sent him. Rather, I stated that his wife recommended sending him. Most likely she was senior enough to be asked who should be sent to investigate the claim. She recommended her husband. The decision to send him, obviously, rested with the directorate of operations. Wilson is qulaified. The only reason why it is relevant is because Joe Wilson stated that he was sent by the Vice Presidents office, when in fact, the VP's office had no idea Joe Wilson was sent. Nor were they briefed on Joe Wilson's report (see Tenet's press release). So you can imagine the VPs office surprise when the claim is made that a) they sent Wilson to Niger b) that he refuted the Niger claim and c) they had seen his report and hid it's content from the American people. When the VPs office tried to find out the facts, the heard from the CIA that his wife recommended him and that his report was regarded as reinforcing the African uranium connection. That is the message the VPs office was trying to convey.

6) You cannot erase other views and replace them with the Bush Admin talking points and call it "more neutral." It is widely suspected -- and there is evidence, including Rove's and Cheney's own statements to journalists to support this view -- that the outing of Wilson was an act of revenge against her husband. You can include the Admin cover story too, but it is inappropriate to replace the (probably more accurate) rationale with the cover story.

I did not replace that view. There were two paragraphs, one that said that Wilson's view was that it was retaliation. The second paragraph was the administrations point of view. It was completely unbalanced to state that it was retaliation in both sentences. One paragraph devoted to Wilson's view and one paragraph devoted to the adminstrations view seemed balanced.

Please respond to the above concerns. For now I am only going to revert some of your changes to give you a chance to respond to the above. --csloat 20:46, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Please read the previous discussions. You'll notice much has already been debated as csloat says.--Nomen Nescio 03:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Tbeatty I think most of your comments above are reasonable. Some questions remain however: (2) The "evidence" thing. You can not use the word evidence when it refers to evidence of something else. The aluminum tubes, for example, were not evidence of WMD but rather evidence of something other than WMD -- the dimensions of the tubes were consistent with another program and experts agreed that they could not be easily used for WMD. The Niger documents were evidence of the fact that there was a forger attempting to manipulate US intelligence assessments -- again, not evidence of WMD. To say something constitutes "evidence" of WMD suggests that it actually supports the WMD claim -- it suggests a certain interpretation of the facts. Otherwise they are just facts, no more relevant to the case than data about the price of tea. (3) you're nitpicking -- the majority of Americans feel we were misled into the war; perhaps "manufacture" is too extreme, but they obviously think we were misled by something. It's a minor point, but "many" seems far more accurate than "some." (4) Your speculation about South Africa etc. is sheer speculation. You say you can only assume the British govt shared your speculations -- however that is not true. You can also assume the British government is once again lying to cover their ass rather than being further embarrassed by this mess. Using Occam's razor yields the latter conclusion far more readily than the former.--csloat 08:36, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Your conclusion about the aluminum tubes is incorrect. There are disputed uses for the aluminum tubes. This was mentioned in the CIA report to congress before the vote on whether to authorize the war. Some analysts believed the tubes were acceptable for a nuclear program, others thought it was for a rocket program (most likely a banned one). But evidence is what is used to support a hypothesis. If the hypothesis is Sadaam had a WMD program, having some analysts believe that the tubes could be used for a nuclear WMD program is evidence that supports the hypothesis. Even if they were wrong, however, it didn't refute the nuclear WMD program. As the congressional report said "some" analysts thought the tubes were not suitable for a nuclear WMD program but "all" analysts thought his nuclear WMD program was reconstituted.

As for the Niger documents, they again don't dispute the hypothesis even if they are forgeries. But there was plenty of other evidence including classified evidence. Some of that evidence was presented to the U.N. Even the CIA analysts that are skeptical of the same items you are, still believed Iraq had reconstituted it's WMD program.

It is only natural to feel misled since the conlusions supported by the evidence appears to be wrong. The questions is what or who misled? Was it Sadaam? Was it the CIA's interpretation? Was it the administration? The Democrats for obvious reasons want the public to believe it was Bush, but I'm not sure that conclusion has been reached. BAck to back intelligence failures seems to be the more likely cause of the misleading and relying in the interpretation of evidence by the CIA has fallen under very serious scrutiny.

My conclusion about other african countries being potential sources is simply to show that it would not be prudent to imply the statement made by britain should be interpreted to mean anything more than what they said. It is feasible that Namibia or South Africa supplied Uranium to Iraq. It is even still feasible that Niger attempted to supply Iraq with Uranium, and pulled back when the U.S. started poking it's nose around. Either way, we don't know whether Britains statement is true or not. I prefer to presume they are telling the truth since they are a democracy and more often than not, democracies tend to tell the truth and expose lies.

And I don't see how Occam's razor concludes that Britain is lying. I have seen no evidence of lying (except by Sadaam Hussein). If anything, Occam's razor would not have any assumptions including lying. Without any contrarian evidence, Occam would take Britain at it's word. If Iraq had no WMD program, its seems logical that Iraq would comply with UN resolutions. It seems logical that he would cooperate with the inspectors, etc, etc. Tbeatty 05:27, 29 November 2005 (UTC) tbeatty

This is garbage - nobody in their right mind still thinks the aluminum tubes had to do with WMD. It's as silly to call them "evidence" for a hypothesis that turned out to be wrong as it would be to call Saddam's consumption of American whiskey as evidence that he was an American stooge. If there was "plenty of other evidence" besides the forged documents, what do you have against indicating what specifically that evidence actually is? People feel misled because they were misled. I am not disputing that plenty of reasonable people thought Saddam was working on WMD -- let's face it, Saddam was always a murderous thug, and there are compelling prestige reasons for any national leader (especially in the Arab world) to seek WMD. We know he tried to get WMD in the past and we know he is a manipulative liar. That is not at issue here. What is at issue is whether certain things were actually "evidence" of WMD and whether certain leaders besides Saddam (including the Brits) also demonstrated a propensity to manipulate intelligence. The fact is most people do now understand that the intel was manipulated. Some documents were forged -- that speaks to conscious lying with foreknowledge. Your comments about Namibia etc are pure speculation -- they are not relevant here as they would constitute original research. I am unaware of any mainstream journalist (or for that matter, conservative politician) who engages in this speculation so it certainly shouldn't be assumed as fact on wikipedia. Occam would more likely go with the idea that a govt known to lie to protect itself from embarrassment would lie to protect itself from embarrassment rather than sheer conjecture that isn't even backed up by the mainstream media. As for Saddam cooperating, anyone who knows anything about Saddam knows that it seems far more logical that Saddam would obfuscate things every chance he got since that is what he does. The thing is, even the weapons inspectors were saying that war was not the way to deal with the situation. Hans Blix said Saddam did not need to be cooperative for them to be able to have successful inspections.--csloat 18:53, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Motive for outing

I have a problem with Joe Wilson's statements that the outing of his wife was intended as retaliation against him, as revenge. csloat repeated that in the comments just above.

For myself, I think it's more likely that the primary motivation for the Bush people was the discrediting of Wilson and the blunting of his criticisms of Bush's dishonesty in pushing the Saddam-uranium story. That is, they wanted to push a storyline in the media that Wilson wasn't credible, because he'd only been sent on the trip to Africa as some kind of boondoggle arranged by his wife. This spin helped the Administration in two ways: it lessened the impact of Wilson's criticisms by painting him as not really qualified to perform the investigation on his own merits, and provided a semi-plausible explanation of why Cheney (and by extension Bush) might not have been aware of Wilson's findings: because his trip was just some obscure junket whipped up by his wife, not an actual investigation instigated by Cheney's office. And as Sen. Pat Roberts made sure to emphasize in the Senate intelligence committee's report, Cheney's office apparently didn't request Wilson's mission directly. It was, rather, something the CIA did on its own volition.

It's kind of a side issue in the larger scheme of things. But when I see someone repeating Wilson's assertion that the motivation of the administration was "revenge," it raises a red flag in my mind that the person isn't evaluating the situation very objectively. As far as I can see, the Administration, for all that it's demonstrably vindictive and not above hurting its enemies (and even the general public interest, and US security) as part of advancing its political agenda, probably didn't out Valerie Wilson just to punish her husband. They were not primarily motivated by vindictiveness, or by a desire to deter others. They had a more immediate, and more powerful, motive in terms of their need to respond to his charges in the media, and to try to get a pro-Administration spin to win out over the anti-Administration spin represented by Wilson's public statements.

I think the article as currently written does a decent job of addressing the Administration's motives. But seeing csloat's comment asserting that there is evidence that the outing was "an act of revenge" raised the issue in my mind. Yeah, the Administration fights dirty in situations like this, and the people on the receiving end of that might well view their actions as being based on revenge, pure and simple. But I think a more reasonable interpretation is that the Bush people did this in pursuit of their own political self-interest, and any revenge associated with it was secondary to that. John Callender 06:57, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

John, I think you are on the right track. However, when you consider that Wilson was known for introducing his wife as a CIA employee and the number of people who knew she worked there prior to Novak's article, I think it is clear no "outing" was intended at all. She was considered an analyst and analysts are not covert. In my opinion, the WH intended to use Plame as another example in a list of CIA analysts downplaying evidence in order to reach a conclusion that differed from the policy leanings of the WH. The WH and CIA were in a struggle for who would frame foreign policy. The CIA was constantly "dismissing" and "downplaying" evidence of the link between Saddam and al Qaeda. An analyst for the DIA said so, as you well know. In the case of Wilson, he returned from Niger after learning that the Iraqis had sought uranium in 1999 and claimed there was no truth in the story that Saddam wanted uranium. He was doing the bidding of his CIA analyst wife. The best view is to see the WH motives as a political response to expose the effort by some inside the CIA to stack the intelligence towards a certain point of view. RonCram 07:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

John - I agree that my claim that it was an "act of revenge" is an oversimplification. You're right, such an act was carried out in part to get something out of it, in this case discrediting Joe Wilson (though the claim reported early after the leak by someone unknown in the admin -- probably Libby or Rove -- that Wilson's wife was not "off limits" does speak to a certain vindictiveness in the motive). Of course, Ron is completely out to lunch in claiming that no outing was intended at all. His claim that J Wilson was doing his wife's bidding is of course demonstrably false. But in any case I think we can all agree that all such speculation about why the criminals who outed Wilson did what they did is simply speculation,and where it appears in wikipedia it should be identified as such (and the source of the speculation ought to be identified).--csloat 09:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, please demonstrate how the claim Wilson was doing his wife's bidding was false. It is clear his wife recommended Wilson for the job. It is also clear that she had an axe to grind. In spite of concerns expressed by other CIA officials that nothing new could be learned from the trip, Wilson was sent anyway. Surprisingly, Wilson learned that SH did seek uranium in 1999. In spite of that, Wilson wrote an op-ed claiming he disproved the claim SH sought uranium. I would love to see you demonstrate that Wilson was not doing his wife's bidding. RonCram 15:52, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron, please demonstrate that she had an "axe to grind" -- there is no evidence whatsoever for that. I don't need to respond to this - the information you seek is in the article, and it is all over mainstream news, if you'll pull your nose out of the Weekly Standard long enough to read it. I gave you a link to Wilson's article; there was no evidence there of him claiming to have found evidence that Saddam sought anything in 1999 or of him claiming to "disprove" anything.--csloat 21:01, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

csloat, if you would read the sources I would not have to do this. The fact Plame had an axe to grind can be seen in her recommending her husband (a person who would be loyal to her) to do a job some at the CIA thought was a waste of time. Wilson showed his loyalty by writing an op-ed piece that clearly neglected to report the only important finding of his trip, i.e. Saddam sent a delegation to Niger for uranium in 1999. This information is in the Senate Report, not the Weekly Standard. Wilson's op-ed piece was called "What I Didn't Find in Africa." In the piece he concludes "some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat." That is clearly the opposite of what he learned in Africa. Wilson was willing to ruin his own credibility in an effort to back up his wife's POV. csloat, thank you for proving that you really cannot back up your boast. I invite you to read this interview with Bill Tierney. [16] RonCram 15:45, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I thought the notion that he was sent by his wife was debunked months if not years ago. I'm a bit confused. --waffle iron 15:53, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

"sent by his wife" is what was essentially leaked. It is inaccurate. What has been concluded is that Plame was either asked who to send or offered Wilson as a candidate to send on this particular mission. There is no questions that Wilson was qualified. However, the claim that Plame had nothing to do with Wilson's trip to Niger is as equally inaccurate. The Director of Operations made the ultimate call to send Wilson. The decision was solely his and he took input from Plame. What is also inaccurat is that Wilson was sent by the Vice Presidents office. The Vice President office had no input on who to send nor were they briefed on the content of Wilson's report but they were responsible for asking the CIA about the "Niger reports" that were bubbling in press and other intelligence. So "sent by his wife" was used by the administration to counter "sent by the VPs office" used by Joe Wilson. Both are inaccurate.

Tbeatty 05:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC) tbeatty

Tbeatty that is correct -- however, I could be wrong about this, but it is my understanding that Wilson was quoted out of context on the VPs office thing -- can anyone cite the actual context of Wilson's statement to that effect? It appears as though this claim is a major republican talking point on the issue, but I'm really not sure I understand it. --csloat 09:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Tbeatty, you are close to the truth. However, it appears the whole idea for the trip to Niger came from Wilson's wife and she sold her boss on the idea. Also, the concept of Wilson being "qualified" for the trip seems incongruous. Some of the CIA people thought the trip a waste of time. The Niger officials had already denied it and they could not be expected to admit it if it did happen. When Wilson arrived in Niger, the U.S. ambassador to Niger told Wilson that he (or she) had already spoken to all current Niger officials about Iraq and uranium. The ambassador refused to allow Wilson to meet with any current officials. Wilson was allowed to meet with former officials. There is every reason to think the ambassador to Niger would have been more "qualified" than Wilson to handle those conversations as well. You can see why some CIA officials saw no reason to send Wilson on the trip. RonCram 06:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The Senate Report makes clear that Plame recommended Wilson for the job and walked him to the interview room where it was a fait accompli. The CIA officials who were against the idea were overruled. RonCram 16:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

You are correct waffle iron, it was debunked; the confusion lies in RonCram's ideology, not in the facts. He is desperate to pin adverse motives on a woman whose only crime was doing her job to her country. He thinks the fact that she mentioned her husband -- not "sent" him -- is proof of some kind of "axe to grind."--csloat 17:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

waffle iron, csloat makes a habit out of making claims that facts have been refuted without ever providing the refutation. He then claims he has already refuted it and refuses to cite his refutation. The Senate Report clearly deals with the issue of the Niger trip on pages 36-73. [17] On page 39, the report reads: "The CPD reports officer told Committee staff that the former ambassador's wife "offered up his name" and a memorandum to the Deputy Chief of the CPD on February 12, 2002, from the former ambassador's wife says, "my husband has good relations with both the PM (prime minister) and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." The report goes on to say "The former ambassador's wife told Committee staff that when CPD decided it would like to send the former ambassador to Niger, she approached her husband on behalf of the CIA and told him "there's this crazy report" on a purported deal for Niger to sell uranium to Iraq." This comment shows that she had already decided the conclusion Wilson was required to confirm. RonCram 20:25, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

LOL, nice one Ron. Unfortunately you've provided no evidence of an "axe to grind" just like you provided no evidence that JWilson claimed to "disprove" anything in his editorial. It's great that you can cite chapter and verse of the SSCI report, but you seem incapable of acknowledging that some things were not addressed in that report, and there are some things that report got (gasp!) wrong. (Meanwhile, you are all too willing to see flaws in the report when its conclusions are inconsistent with your own; cf your own comments on the page for the report). The myth that Valerie "sent" Joseph has been thoroughly debunked since the report came out, as has the myth that Joseph distorted the evidence about Niger. The report only claims that Plame "suggested" his name, not that she had any authority to send him anywhere, as you imply in some sort of matrimonial conspiracy theory. As early as July 2003 this was correctly sniffed out in the media as a Rovian strategy to discredit Plame, and the LA Times around the time of the Senate report was quoting a CIA official who said that she did not initiate the discussion of her husband going anyway. Your beloved senate report did not reach a conclusion about Plame's relationship to Wilson's trip -- in fact, it specifically avoided such a conclusion, as can easily be seen if you read the addendum, which indicated the Democrats on the committee had specifically opposed language that reached such a conclusion on this issue. Your pal Bob Novak summed things up nicely: "They neither agreed to a conclusion that former diplomat Joseph Wilson was suggested for a mission to Niger by his CIA employee wife nor defended his statements to the contrary."

Of course, this is all a silly distraction, since her "suggesting" her husband speaks to nothing nefarious, certainly not "axe-grinding" (which you believe yourself to substantiate substantiate by showing that she called a crazy report crazy -- a report which in fact turned out to be crazy!). Her superiors were well aware whom she was married to, so it's just ludicrous to act like her simply bringing up his name is some kind of scandalous left-wing coup.

As for Niger, the senate report itself admits "Ambassador Wilson reached the same conclusion that the Embassy has reached that it was highly unlikely that anything between Iraq and Niger was going on." Of course, the Senate concluded (as George Tenet had) that the claim that Saddam was seeking uranium from Africa should not have been included in the state of the union, and that it was not supportable to claim that the british government thought he was. This stuff is pretty clear in the report, and you are just obfuscating things in order to discredit the Wilsons.--csloat 07:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Nice smokescreen, csloat. True, the Senate Report did not agree on a "Conclusion" but it is a political body and it is difficult for political bodies to reach a conclusion on polticians. However, it is not difficult to read the Senate Report itself and to quote from the memo Plame wrote: "my husband has good relations with both the PM (prime minister) and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity."

BTW, the report was not "crazy" since Wilson confirmed Saddam was seeking uranium in 1999. Wilson deceived the public when he wrote his op-ed piece saying his Niger trip indicated Saddam was not seeking uranium. Proof of Plame/Wilson's "axe to grind" is the fact he would stoop to such an action in spite of the facts.

Wilson's view that the French would never agree to sell to Saddam is also not credible. The French were big supporters of Saddam and they cared more about their trading profits with Saddam than they did about the lives Saddam was destroying every year. Yes, Wilson reached the same conclusions the Embassy reached regarding the liklihood of a sale. The only problem is that Wilson had more evidence for the sale than the Embassy had.

As to the Senate's conclusion regarding whether Bush should have said the 16 words in his State of the Union speech, the Butler Report came out on July 14, 2004 - and the Senate Report came out July 7, 2004. There was no way for the Senate to know the British Intelligence had survived the Butler Review. Now that the Butler Report is out, we know that Bush's 16 words were well justified.

The Butler Report states: "In preparing the dossier, the UK consulted the US. The CIA advised caution about any suggestion that Iraq had succeeded in acquiring uranium from Africa, but agreed that there was evidence that it had been sought." (page 123)

The Butler Report also reads: "We conclude that, on the basis of the intelligence assessments at the time, covering both Niger and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the statements on Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Africa in the Government’s dossier, and by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, were well-founded. By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that:

'The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.'

was well-founded." (Page 123)

Plame had an "axe to grind" and she got Wilson to grind it, even if it did damage his credibility. RonCram 16:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Ron I don't want to indulge in your fantasies any longer. There is no evidence she had an axe to grind. The Senate was right about the 16 words based on the information they had at the time, and the Butler report has offered no evidence whatsoever to change that view -- as I said earlier it is most likely a case of CYA, like much of the Senate report. The fact is that the senate took no position on Plame "sending" her husband and as I said it's all a bit silly anyway -- everyone knew who her husband was, there was no way she was going to pull the wool over their eyes with this memo. The 1999 stuff is irrelevant; what seems to have happened is that Saddam tried to ask for uranium and Niger said "no." That such a conversation may have taken place 3 years prior to Wilson's trip is irrelevant. He found no evidence that was relevant of Saddam seeking (and certainly none of Niger providing) uranium. There is nothing deceptive in his op-ed that I am aware of, and I see no evidence that you even read it, frankly. This is getting tedious.--csloat 18:35, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The Butler Report deals with classified information. We will not know what that information is until it is declassified. But if the Senate had the Butler Report prior to publishing their own, their conclusion would have been different. BTW, no one has suggested Plame pulled the wool over her boss's eyes. She put forward Wilson's name and her boss signed off on it prior to meeting Wilson. Perhaps her boss had the same axe to grind that Plame had. But the fact remains the CIA would not have chosen Wilson for this trip if not for Plame. Saddam seeking uranium in 1999 is not irrelevant. Even the CIA admits that it tends to confirm more recent reporting. It shows modus operandi and intent. Wilson could not have found any evidence of Iraq seeking uranium in 2002 since he was not allowed to talk to current Niger officials. Wilson's op-ed was deceptive or he would have written that he was not allowed to interview current officials and that former officials said Saddam sought uranium in 1999. But those facts did not fit with the preconceived conclusion his wife (and possibly the CIA) wanted. RonCram 01:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

RonCram, much of what you are saying appears to be based on conjecture, either on your part, or on the part of your sources. Your statements such as, "Perhaps her boss had the same axe to grind that Plame had," and "The French were big supporters of Saddam and they cared more about their trading profits with Saddam than they did about the lives Saddam was destroying every year," are currently conjecture and opinion, not facts, especially, with regards to your latter statement, in the context of the U.S.'s own previous sales of arms and weapons to Iraq. While one is, of course, free to come to any conclusion for oneself on what happend, for Wikipedia's purposes we can only rely on relevant noteable and verifiable sources. So far, there appears to be no set of reliable sources that meets that criteria as yet. It may come to pass that what you are saying is corroberated by better sources, but until that time, we can't accept this for inclusion here at the present time. Relevant noteable and verifiable sources are the lifeblood of good Wikipedia articles. Cheers! --NightMonkey 03:05, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

NightMonkey, a careful reading will show that my conjecture appears only on the Talk page, where it is accepted practice to explain why a particular entry is relevant for inclusion. The only speculation on the part of my sources is by Victoria Toensing who is calling for a Congressional investigation into the behavior of the CIA. Why did the CIA not require Wilson to sign a confidentiality agreement, as is standard practice? Questions such as these are important. I stand by the edits I have made as well sourced and relevant to the article. If you wish to learn more about why I hold particular views or believe certain speculations to be valid, please ask. If I can find time, I will be happy to answer. RonCram 16:49, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Since modus operandi is all you have, I fail to see how that proves SH sought uranium in 2002. Any other evidence (evidence is something other than believing people because they are trustworthy) of SH seeking uranium does not exist.

You are repeatedly advancing the Butler report as evidence. Please explain why it is impossible (contrary to any other human being on this planet) for the investigators to make a mistake. Mind you, I'm not even suggesting deliberate misrepresentation. No, why can't there be an honest mistake?

Furthermore, why do you find their word sufficient when the mess we call Iraq is a direct result of taking other person's words as evidence? We now know their words were wrong. No WMD or any link with OBL! By excluding this possibility without advancing verifiable evidence for your interpretation you clearly take a dogmatic stance. Oddly enough, regarding the La Repubblica article you are miraculously incapable of the same trust you have in the Butler Report. --Nomen Nescio 16:25, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Nomen, I respect the fact you want to use your mind to the fullest. That is a wonderful trait. I hope you wont be offended if I ask: is English your first language? I ask because understanding the definition of words is very important in logic. "Evidence" is a word that can be used in different contexts and have different technical meanings depending on the context. In the definition that follows, definition #1a refers to outside the courtroom and definition #1b refers to inside the courtroom:

Evidence - 1 a : an outward sign : INDICATION b : something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter - 2 : one who bears witness; especially : one who voluntarily confesses a crime and testifies for the prosecution against his accomplices

It is important to note that evidence includes eyewitness testimony. Evidence can also be of a physical nature: documents, photographs, DNA, etc. In order for these items to be admissible in court, they have to be authenticated by an expert witness. This expert must have information not available to the court and he must make a studied assessment before testifying.

You make the statement "Since Modus Operandi is all you have..." and then you go on to talk about my reliance on the Butler Report. Do you see the problem? The evidence I have put forward is Saddam's modus operandi confirmed by the expert testimony of Butler Report. The Butler Report confirms an intelligence assessment involving several pieces of evidence. We know this because it says Saddam sought uranium in both Niger and Democratic Republic of Congo.

Now let's talk about standards of evidence. In a criminal courtroom, the standard of proof required to convict someone is "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt." This is a very high standard because as a society we do not want to imprison innocent people. In a civil trial the standard required to win your case is "preponderance of evidence." This means you need more evidence on your side than on the other side. This explains why OJ Simpson and Robert Blakely can be found "not guilty" in criminal court but they lose in a civil trial. When it comes to determining the standard of "actionable intelligence" or "actionable evidence," where would you set the standard? If you think about the fact that thousands of people died in terrorist attacks on 9/11 and you know both Saddam and Osama seek WMD, how much evidence do you need before you act? Do you want to err on the side of protecting national security? Or would you rather err on the side of giving Saddam and Osama the benefit of the doubt? Would you demand that we can prove Saddam had acquired uranium beyond a reasonable doubt prior to invading? Intelligence services never provide that level of evidence. It simply is not possible in the real world, until after a disaster. Condi Rice said "We do not want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." Do you see the issue?

I have put forward the evidence that convinces me Saddam sought uranium in Africa in 2002. What evidence do you have that it did not happen? You have Saddam's denial but it is common for a criminal to say he is innocent. You have the word of the Niger officials but you would not expect co-conspirators to admit to it either. So what evidence do you have that it did not happen? Which side has more evidence?

BTW, you are misinformed when you say there is no link between Saddam and OBL. The Senate Report clearly states that Saddam offered al-Qaeda safehaven and provided training in terrorist operations. The Clinton Administration bombed the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory because both Saddam and Osama were involved in chemical weapons development there. See Operation Infinite Reach for more information.

All of this is really mute anyway. We are fighting a War on Terror. The fact is that Iraq is the focal point of the War on Terror. The presence of our forces there have made it possible for us to inflict incredible damage on the world of terrorism. Soon, the Iraqi government will be able to take over the fight against the terrorists. RonCram 19:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

All hail dear leader! — goethean ॐ 19:47, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

1. That's 'moot', not 'mute'.

2. The vast preponderance of what you assert above is simply factually incorrect. Saddam did not provide safe haven for terrorists, nor aid nor collaborate with them. Your assertions are not borne out by corroborated fact, just by doctored and selective, unvetted, raw intelligence. But we've had this discussion for months, and you seem keen on jingo.

3. The rationale you provide above for the U.S. actions could be equally valid as a rationale for, say, Japan to avenge our atomic bomb attack in kind. Nations cannot act precipitously, as the U.S. has done, without proof.

4. I honestly wish you well. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Ryan, you are correct on the spelling. Darn those homonyms!. That is what happens when I type to fast. My mental spellchecker can't keep up. RonCram 21:33, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the response, but it fails to address my concerns. I agree that the meaning of the word evidence is not absolute and subject to context. Nevertheless, you fail to accept there is no reason to believe SH sought uranium in 2002 except for the Butler report. No photographs, letters, witnesses or anything resembling physical proof is advanced to support the claim presented in the Butler report. You expect me to trust your "experts" on their word when it has been shown "misrepresentation" of the facts happened before. Modus operandi in it self is never sufficient to warrant a conviction. The US has used an atom bomb twice, so modus operandi suggests it is about to use it again (your logic). History has also shown the US lied about their reasons for war in the past, so that proves (your logic again) it lied this time. Or better yet, if SH has reasons to lie, does a government that misrepresented their casus belli, and could face charges for war crimes, not have ample reason to lie too? Why do you not explain on what grounds you dismiss the possibility the Butler report is wrong? Everybody makes mistakes, even your experts.

You still fail to explain why the Bush administration (mistakenly!?) retracted the uranium claim when it so clearly is the truth (says your Holy Butler report).

Although the US was victim of a horrible crime, this still does not warrant attacking just anybody we do not like. There was ample reason to doubt every single argument for invading Iraq. And history has shown these arguments were incorrect. Not to mention letting OBL, the real brains behind 9-11, escape merely to attack SH. Why? Also, history has shown, those who said invading Iraq would be a huge mistake were right. They feared the outcome could be civil war and result in an increase in terrorism. Reading the newspaper today one can only conclude they were spot on! As a result of the illegal invasion Iraq has become the centre of international terrorism. Job well done Mr Bush! It only proves revenge never results in wise decisions. Besides, it is well known the Bush administration was looking at Iraq well in advance of 9-11. This seems odd to me.--Nomen Nescio 09:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"Good Article"?

I do think there are some good things about this article, but it is also battered by edit wars and full of political bias. I have attempted to correct some things on one small section of the page, but I have no doubt that I will have to fight tooth and nail to keep such corrections in, and I'm not sure I have the time. Hot political topics in general are bad ideas for featured articles - things change too fast, and the articles are often the targets of people interested in spreading disinformation and conspiracy theories. All the plame-related articles give far too much credence to the ridiculous conspiracy theory spread by Limbaugh, et al, that Plame and Wilson are some kind of traitors trying to bring down the bush presidency. Of course such theories should be mentioned here, but they do not need this much attention. Anyway, my point is I think a NPOV tag here would be more accurate than a "good article" tag at this point.--csloat 07:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I spend much more of my Wikipedia time on non-political articles for just such reasons as you state. I really only watch for outright vandalism or extreme POV on the political and contreversial subject articles nowadays. What is especially worrying to me, especially in light of recent Wikipedia events, is that I believe that this situation can help to create more poorly monitored "holes" in Wikipedia where poorly crafted and poorly sourced articles can survive much longer than they should, since many quality Wikipedia editors run as fast as they can from articles where there are attracted large groups of single-issue-centered editors. --NightMonkey 04:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Good article? That's a joke, right? 71.212.7.68

Now I understand why they're calling it "Wackypedia".71.212.7.68

Novak: Bush knows who leaked

The Washington Post is reporting that Novak Says Bush Knows Who Leaked Name (subscribers only, at the moment), as is the AP: [18] [19] [20]. And from Newsday in New York: [21]. Very big news. It is also being reported that this development has negative legal consequences for Karl Rove, and brings several more journalists into the glare of the legal investigation. --NightMonkey 09:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Possible delisting from Good Article?

I looked through the history of this article, and it clearly shows that their have been some edit wars going on, a lot of reversions and removals and more reversions. Since one of the requirements of GAs are to be stable, I'm wondering whether or not this article should continue to remain under GA status.

Also, the lead is too long and quite unwieldy. It's readibility is hampered by the constant external links, which should be changed to inline citations. Also after a brief overview of the article it seems to be NPOV, but it seems according to the history that a lot of POV is seeping into the article.

Finally, at 144 kb, the article fails (by far) to remain at appropriate length. It should be summarized and divided into subarticles. AndyZ 00:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This is definitely not a good article and deserves a rework. RonCram 17:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, certain editors insist upon inserting opinion in stead of presenting facts. This might be a good opportunity to revive the use of referenced facts and ask these editors from refraining pushing political views.--Nomen Nescio 23:30, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

wilson "debunking" claims

I went and read each of the four articles listed as sources for the claim that Wilson originally claimed to have debunked the documents. The claim is only actually made in the one article for which Wilson did not provide source material. The documents were known to be forgeries by the IAEA by the time Wilson wrote his editorial (the debunking was made public March of 2003). He did say that the names and dates were wrong in one of the articles, and later told SSCI that he misspoke and had not actually seen the documents (at least that is what the Wapo article seemed to support -- an article published in June of 03) -- if you want to put this sort of trivia in the article that's fine but it should be accurate -- nowhere does that appear to show Wilson debunking the documents himself or Wilson claiming to be the debunker.--csloat 20:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for opening a talk paragraph, Commodore. I'm not sure how to get enough detail into the article without making it overlong -- let me spell out my reasoning, and maybe we can agree on a format.

1) My principal criticism of the current paragraph is that it (a) implies that the Senate Select Committee was criticizing Wilson for saying that he had debunked the documents in his editorial and (b) ignores that Wilson was an off-the-record or anonymous source for each of the three articles I cite, as follows.

2) I'm pretty sure that it's a fact that, as I said, "Although Wilson did not make this claim in his July 6 editorial, three earlier news articles for which Wilson had provided source information did claim that the Wilson had debunked the Niger documents," as follows.

2) (a) May 6, 2003: Nick Kristof writes a piece stating: "I'm told by a person involved in the Niger caper that more than a year ago the vice president's office asked for an investigation of the uranium deal, so a former U.S. ambassador to Africa was dispatched to Niger. In February 2002, according to someone present at the meetings, that envoy reported to the C.I.A. and State Department that the information was unequivocally wrong and that the documents had been forged." According to a later Washington Post piece, Wilson was a source for the article.

yes but not a source for that claim', which is at issue here. The sentence you wrote, while technically correct, seems misleading here as the article says "according to someone present at the meetings" that envoy (i.e. Wilson) reported that the docs were forged -- that someone at the meetings was obviously not Wilson.-csloat 22:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

2) (b) June 12, 2003: Walter Pincus writes a piece stating "After returning to the United States, the envoy reported to the CIA that the uranium-purchase story was false, the sources said. Among the envoy's conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because the 'dates were wrong and the names were wrong,' the former U.S. government official said." The same later Washington Post piece cited above confirmed that the envoy and the former government official were both Wilson.

This is the quote that Wilson apologized to the SSCI about, indicating he had not actually seen the documents. But he does not here claim to debunk the documents, only to say they may have been forged and then states the reason. It sounds like he is recollecting what he read about a couple months earlier. By June it was well known the IAEA had invalidated the documents.csloat 22:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

2) (c) June 30, 2003: Ackerman and Judis report that a prominent offical/former ambassador "returned after a visit to Niger in February 2002 and reported to the State Department and the CIA that the documents were forgeries. The CIA circulated the ambassador's report to the vice president's office, the ambassador confirms to TNR. But, after a British dossier was released in September detailing the purported uranium purchase, administration officials began citing it anyway, culminating in its inclusion in the State of the Union. 'They knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie,' the former ambassador tells TNR."

This really says nothing one way or another about whether Wilson claims to have debunked anything; again, I'll note that this is some time after the IAEA officially debunked the Niger documents.csloat 22:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

3) It seems to me that it's possible that articles (a) and (c) sourced their "Wilson revealed the forgeries" to someone other than Wilson, which is why I stated my original piece neutrally - that three articles for which Wilson had acted as an anonymous source had stated that Wilson debunked the Niger documents. I think it's up to the readers whether they want to infer that four separate journalists over the course of three articles could make the same error, but I was careful not to draw the conclusion. (I'd argue that the Pincus article (b) isn't really susceptible to an alternate analysis - it directly sources the envoy's conclusion that the names and dates "were wrong" to the "former government official," who we now know is Wilson.)

Actually, the journalists seem to be pretty clear on who said what, and I don't see the claim that Wilson did the debunking actually sourced to Wilson in any of them. You're right about the Pincus article but this is a much less significant point, and it was well after the docs had officially been debunked.-csloat 22:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd appreciate your thoughts - in particular, do you think that "Although Wilson did not make this claim in his July 6 editorial, three earlier news articles for which Wilson had provided source information did claim that the Wilson had debunked the Niger documents" is false, or just incomplete? I'll sleep on it and see if I can come up with another way to write it. Thanks, TheronJ 21:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it is misleading, because it makes it appear as if Wilson took credit for something that would make no sense for him to take credit for. By June everyone following this knew the documents were forgeries, and they had not learned that from Wilson. He misspoke to Pincus - or Pincus misquoted him - and he clarified things when confronted in the Senate about it. This is a totally trivial point, except for the fact that it has become one of the anti-Wilson mantras that is often cited by those who want to claim that Wilson is some kind of liar or traitor. The issue at hand is rather trivial -- he seems to have claimed to have seen the documents when he hadn't, but he does not seem to have claimed that he verified that they were inaccurate. He's not a documents expert, and there would be no reason to make such a claim, since nobody would believe it anyway; the report of the IAEA debunking the documents came out in March.

In any case I'm not sure what purpose is served by dwelling on such trivia, but if you must rewrite this it should make clear that the documents were publicly debunked in March and that there were inaccurate reports in June that Wilson did the debunking. If you want to dwell on the Pincus quote, you should add Wilson's response, which is that he acknowledged to SSCI that it was a misstatement. There is no reason to characterize this as a significant aspect of the Plame affair, however, because it simply isn't.--csloat 22:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

On reflection, I think you're right - I'm going to rewrite that paragraph to be shorter. IMHO, if you're going to have a section discussing "criticisms," it should accurately describe what those critisisms are, which the current section doesn't, but you're right that it should state Wilson's side too. Let me take one more crack and tell me what you think.TheronJ 22:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for considering these things :) My guess is that wilson probably had a source close to the documents who either faxed him a copy or told him directly that they were terrible forgeries. But I haven't seen that speculation anywhere either. Like I said, I think the whole thing is trivial. -csloat 22:47, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

If you ask me the entire Wilson debate can be deleted. It clearly serves as a distraction to the actual crux of the affair: 1 who divulged the identity of a CIA operative? 2 How is it that despite numerous reports explicitely doubting the WMD and OBL allegations the Bush administration still had to invad Iraq?--Nomen Nescio 23:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't recommend deleting it, but this page is getting overlong. If someone wanted to try tackling a major reorganization, I think about half the info could be spun off to other pages and linked back to the main page. (Opinion poll data, I'm looking at you.)TheronJ 14:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

csloat recent edits

I am justifying my recent changes below; some of these are reactions to recent anonymous, unexplained changes by 70.17.64.42:

1. "concerning the unauthorized disclosure" -- nobody is contesting whether there was an unauthorized disclosure; the investigation is about who did it. The fact that Libby got busted for perjury along the way does not negate that.

2. Deleted "It is questionable, however, whether an agent who, for example, drives his car every day past the guarded gates to the CIA parking lot may properly be classified as a covert agent." -- this is unsourced here and it doesn't belong here anyway. It is discussed - and refuted - elsewhere in the article. This is silly; only the CIA has the authority to tell us who is and isn't covert, and they have clearly indicated Valerie Wilson's status when they asked for the investigation.

Of course it is not silly. If you are looking for cites, put up a fact tag. I will provide them (there are many). No official source has said Plame was covert, esp. the CIA. More POV nonsense. The content will be restored.--24.55.228.56 05:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

3. I removed this silliness: "Due to the increased scrutiny caused by Wilson's talking points, it came to the new media attention that John Kerry, the junior Democratic senator from Massachusetts, had revealed the name of Fulton Armstrong durring the nomination of John Bolton." What's the point of this claim? It should be sourced and its relation to the Plame affair should be spelled out rather than sitting here like some kind of innuendo that doesn't know what it is really implying.

Democratic Senators accusing others of doing the very thing they are doing? Of course it is relevant!--24.55.228.56 05:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

4. changed "operatives" back to "experts". Google for "IAEA operatives" and explain what that is before changing it back. It's made up. I also got rid of "reportedly" because that makes it sound like a rumor. The experts themselves did the reporting. They found no evidence of any such program, and in any case this is not the page to debate that issue on.

5. "speculation by arguing" is more accurate; the speculation about Wilson's motives is sheer speculation without evidence, whereas the argument that government officials should avoid harming national security is an argument, not a mere assertion (that is, it is supported).

6. Erased the redundant fragment "mentioning Wilson's wife in public could be a chance for the Bush administration to discredit Wilson for his public critique on the validity of the Niger/Iraq yellowcake story." and replaced it with a meaningful alternative ("However,...").

7. Took out the sentence "To date, there is no evidence that Brewster Jennings & Associates has ever had any employees other than Plame." -- this may be a matter someone wishes to dispute, but I have never seen this claim anywhere but Wikipedia. If no investigation into this has taken place, the claim is not really supported and is a form of original research on the part of wikipedia. Compare "To date, there is no evidence that Abraham Lincoln ever liked petting dogs." Has a scholar investigated this? If not, the statement might be true but it is horribly misleading as it implies that Lincoln most likely did not pet dogs, which is unknown. The same is happening here.

If you have evidence of another employee, supply it. Otherwise it stays in.--24.55.228.56 05:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

8. Took out "and, in fact, whether Plame was 'covert' has not been legally established" as it is not the case -- there is no legal finding of covertness that must be met; the only issue is whether a statute makes exposure of her identity illegal. Whether she is "covert" or not is a call the CIA makes, and they have made it. The controversy over whether she is "covert" is explained elsewhere on this page so this line is not necessary and is indeed misleading.

The CIA has not made any such announcement.--24.55.228.56 05:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

9. I re-added "In March 2003, the IAEA declared certain documents alleging a sale of uranium from Niger to Iraq to be forgeries" to the SSCI criticism section because it provides crucial info (that the documents were declared forgeries before Wilson supposedly took credit for the declaration).

Thanks for removing the weasel words and other half-truths. It is unfortunate that they creep back in. --waffle iron 00:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

In fact you added weasel words, which I have reverted.--24.55.228.56 05:25, 19 January 2006 (UTC)