Talk:Tenor

Welcome to the Tenor discussion page

Constructive suggestions and discussion welcome! The contents of this page are for ongoing discussions. For past discussions please see the archives.

Top C and above

As a tenor with a decent top C please see my addition to this page. The tenor of the page (forgive the pun) is that notes above top C are quite usual and achievable. Nothing is further from the truth. In any event such high notes are rare (if non-existent) in vocal scores and must be regarded as "show pieces" a freak almost. Somehow the article suggests that it is quite normal to sign F and G above top C!!!! My addition goes some way to correcting this - I hope it will not be removed entirely. But as a singer I shall not have it sugegsted that a tenor must have a D,E or F or even higher. Sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.197.238 (talk) 23:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Tenor roles in operettas and musicals section

I propose deleting this section. It isn't a complete list (a complete list would be extraordinarily difficult to compile, and of dubious value), nor a meaningfully selective list. Rather, it's an avenue for people to add their favorite tenor roles as they stumble across the article, much like "pop culture references" sections. Fireplace 00:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

One could say the same of all the lists. Maybe they should be limited to major roles, with separate articles of little value for exhaustive lists. There doesn't seem much point in deleting this list without deleting all the others, which would be a net loss of information however slight. Highnote 01:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The lists under voice type serve a more specific purpose by using famous roles to give an example of the flavor of the narrower voice types in ways that a description alone cannot do. By contrast, the bulky list at the end doesn't seem to impart any encyclopedic information about tenors. Fireplace 01:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

If a resourceful Wikipedian could come up with some fair-use audio samples of the different tenor voice types, that would be a big contribution. A look at the articles on the other voice ranges shows they each include a list of roles for musicals/operettas. The baritone article consigns the whole list of roles to a separate article. I propose doing the same for this article, including the list of musical/operetta roles. Ideally the main article would list the tenor voice types with representative audio samples of each one. Highnote 02:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree about audio samples. I've seen the other articles, and depending on how this discussion goes will propose the same thing on them. Regard separate articles... I argued above that the list is unencyclopedic... forking it off doesn't change that. Fireplace 02:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

One of the goals of an encyclopedia is to be comprehensive, or so I read, and a list of roles is a part of comprehensive knowledge about a voice range. It informs us about what singers with that voice range do, though admittedly in eye-glazing fashion. If the list of musical/operetta roles doesn't impart any knowledge about the subtypes of tenor voices because those genres make no such distinctions, that's secondary. The roles that Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote are just as valid as Verdi's. Highnote 23:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, my objections aren't based on a musical tenor vs. opera tenor distinction. Regarding comprehensiveness, there are likely 100,000+ tenor roles. As I've stressed, this current list is neither complete nor meaningfully selective. Fireplace 23:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

A comprehensive list is not the same as an exhaustive one. I agree that an exhaustive list is neither feasible nor desirable, but no list at all implies that tenors have no musical/operetta roles. Although some may disagree, tenors are not castratos. Put all the lists in a separate article and have done with it. Highnote 13:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As Wikipedia is indeed a encyclopedia for knowledge this list should be reinstated. It is indeed not complete however it does provide performers with an Idea of what vocal capabilities are required to sing a certain musical tenor role. This is essential for musicians especially tenors to be able to identify where they are in vocal capability for roles. The list should be re-instated. I for one had often used the list however I am now no longer able to use this and in my view the article has become a catastrophe with no insight to the Vocalisation of Tenors —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.40.212 (talk) 14:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

This list most deinately should be reinstated, with the understanding that the list isn't comprehensive. For a fledgling tenor who was just given his first aria should be able to research the role that the aria comes from, as well as operas with arias containing the same criteria (Timbre, range, orchestration etc.) I feel like if this list were compiled with particular vocal fach in mind, it could be more beneficial. However, in respect to the argument that there can't possibly be a list of all operatic roles for tenors, there is a list of commonly done repetoire that every young tenor, or interested knowledge-seeker should be able to see. The importance of a tenor knowing of Alfredo in La Traviata, or Nemorino in L'Elisir d'Amore, is infinately more useful than a tenor being able to recognize Se Di Lauri from Mozart's Mitridate, or other virtually unheard of operas. I propose that this list of operatic roles be roles from productions that have been performed in the top list venues in the last 10 years. Invariably, one will see repetitions and overlapping (as in the back of the Classical Singer magazine, and Opera News, under the production lists) Wikipedia should be a very easily accessible resource that is not professing to be the be all and end all. If a tenor wants to delve into the subject of tenor roles that are never performed, that is his prerogative, but for those students that are looking ahead to possible roles for their career, they should be able to get an overview on wikipedia. *visit questavoce.blogspot.com for opinion on vocal music, audition experiences, and answers to preprofessional questions, from preprofessional colleagues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

tenor for other instruments besides the voice!

what about tenor saxophones and tenor recorders? This article is a bit biased on voice and should have more information on what the term "tenor" tends to mean when used about instruments.--Sonjaaa 06:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Female Tenors

I've just been informed by an acquaintance that she sings tenor. That prompted me to investigate here but there's no mention of female tenors. She did say that it's rare. Google gives 1500+ references to "female tenor" as opposed to over 20,000 for "male soprano". If anyone knows more about this then it would be a useful inclusion (even if it's to say that it's a mistake to assign a female voice to a tenor range). (I've made the same request in Voice_type) 89.243.136.53 13:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

There's is such a thing, in a loose sense. That is, there are women who can sing low enough to cover tenor parts. They're not common, though, and historically haven't had any music written especially for them (unlike, say, countertenors/castrati/whatever). In my experience the topic really only comes up in choirs where they are of course used either in the tenor or the alto section, depending on their individual tessitura, the needs of the choir, and so on. That said, "female tenor" is definitely not a standard voice classification, more a useful shorthand for "woman whose voice's tessitura, surprisingly, lies in the tenor range." Personally, I don't think it merits its own mention on the page. --George 23:34, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi I came upon this side because of Johnny Cashs song "Daddy sang bass (mama sang tenor)". Therefore I was also wandering why Cash is asociatiang a female with a male type of voice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.166.142.248 (talk) 14:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have met a few women who have sung tenor but they generally are altos that sing tenor to compensate for a lack of male tenors. I think its worth noting in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.168.93.3 (talk) 13:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not that unusual for women to sing tenor, baritone or bass - just not encouraged. Historically it was not unheard of either and all-female choirs could include all ranges. It makes no sense for men to be able to sing alto and soprano, but for women to be unable to sing tenor or bass. The women in this choir - http://www.spav.co.uk/ - are not altos singing tenor, they are tenors and basses —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.169.130.178 (talk) 17:46, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm a tenor and a girl.. Darn, I was hoping my dear wikipedia would answer some questions for me. I'm a bit higher than a tenor but too low to sing an alto part well as they often go up into really high notes.. I'm best between D3 and E5. I have to go into my head voice at the F#4, like a MAN. Knowing that I am one, I'm going to say, YES, women can be tenors and it should be mentioned.

choral

The section on choral music is perhaps confusing to lay-people. First, it is said that in (four-part) choral music the tenor is just above bass. Later, the undefined term baritone is used.Kdammers 02:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

tenor solo repertoire with orchestra

The tenor voice has a select solo reperatoire. I hope people can expand this section!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lawrence18uk (talk • contribs) 13:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 

yes, there should be a section on non-operatic solos for tenor including works like the Passions (J.S Bach). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.168.93.3 (talk) 13:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Including a list of musical roles

I invite everyone to join this discussion on the voice type talk page. Past consensus has been to not include a list of such roles but perhaps this topic should be re-addressed. This topic involves all voice types as there has been a strong attempt to try and make each voice type page similar in content and format.Nrswanson (talk) 22:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Merger of Tenore di grazia into Tenor

The topic of Tenore di grazia seems to be sufficiently covered in the tenor article and is therefor redundant.Nrswanson (talk) 23:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• I second the merge proposal. —Latiligence (talk) 16:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• I second the merge proposal, as well. Contents do not seem quite acceptable and, anyway, completely lack any kind of reference.Jeanambr (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Tenore di grazia is a perfectly useful and long-established category, quite suitable for its own article. Absence of references has nothing to do with the merger question. Let's find the references. I oppose merger. Eebahgum (talk) 20:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the aforementioned comment. The history associated with Tenore di grazia is more specific than the normal, run of the mill light lyric tenor voice. This is an encyclopedia, the more specific and definitive that we can be on each individual subject, the better. I oppose the merger. * visit questavoce.blogspot.com for opinions on vocal music, audition experiences and other preprofessional questions from preprofessional colleagues —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:28, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Images?

As a musically-inebriated human being, I find it difficult to understand what a 'tenor' is, or what his or her range is. What is it in comparison with a baritone or falsetto? Can someone put a scale together that compares the common vocal registers? The image could then be customized to have the tenor scale highlighted on the tenor article, falsetto scaled highlighted on the falsetto article, etc. 24.235.160.136 (talk) 02:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. I'm am afraid you are confusing the terms voice type and vocal register. The terms tenor and baritone refer to two specific voice type for men and are not vocal registers. Falsetto, however, is a vocal register and not a voice type. Vocal registers refer to a specific kind of vocal production defined by the way the larynx is used. All voice types (i.e. tenor, baritone, bass, soprano, contralto, etc.) have the same four vocal registers (vocal fry, modal, falsetto, whistle). There is no set vocal range for the different vocal registers as each voice has there own unique register placements and register breaks. There are however, tendencies within voice types on where the different vocal registers tend to begin and end. All voices are unique though and so there is no definitive chart one can make. Falsetto, as a vocal register, can be used by all the voice types. However, the place at which falsetto begins and ends is unique to every voice with some voices having a much greater natural range than others. Unlike modal voice where there is more a consistantly identifiable set of vocal range, there tends to be much more variety in the range of falsetto vocal production from individual to individual. Therefore, charting a "falsetto range" is really not possible or practical. There are already charts comparing the vocal ranges of the different voice types at the vocal range article. However, vocal range is not like math and voices often hold wider or smaller ranges than those listed. Those given are merely what's average and are not meant to be seen as a hard and fast rule. Also vocal range is only one factor and not even the most important one in determining a singers voice type. Voice type is really more about vocal tessitura (where the voice feels most comfortable singing) and vocal timbre (the characteristic sound of the voice) rather than merely vocal range. I suggest reading the voice type article.Nrswanson (talk) 06:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Highest Male Voice

Just for the sake of fairness and accuracy, should this article read "highest male voice within the modal register"? There are countertenors who are capable of singing in the "female" vocal ranges while in the modal register. I'm not saying its ridiculously common, but I also don't think it's so rare that the opening of the article should read that way, because it almost implies that all countertenors employ falsetto or some other non-modal register to sing in ranges above that typically designated as "tenor." I just think it would be more accurate to say "The tenor is a type of male singing voice and is, usually, the highest male voice within the modal register." Anyone agree, disagree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.26.180 (talk) 04:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The entire process of training a countertenor *after the abolishment of castrati* involves the strengthening of the falsetto of a baritone. The product is such that the man sounds much like a mezzo soprano, or even higher. The term itself, an italian diminuative for "not real," implies that the means of production are not what is typically natural for a singer. Not to say that countertenors are UNNATURAL, but if the desired effect is to sound like a female, and no natural means of vocal production are employed, why should it be thrown into the highest male category? I think that there should be mention of it, and a link to a separate article, but as far as the highest true male voice is concerned, i think that the leggiero tenor has that title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

There are also what are referred to as "natural castrati." While somewhat uncommon, there are men who due to hormonal imbalances continue to have a modal voice in soprano or mezzo range. 2 says you, says two 16:05, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Andrea Bocelli

What type of tenor is Bocelli, I'm not sure he is a lyric tenor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.243.97 (talk) 22:00, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Andrea Bocelli is a light lyric tenor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.96.135.12 (talk) 05:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC) \\

I ADDED HIM IN THE Lirico-Leggiero section, cause that is excaly his type of voice.--Ahmad123987 (talk) 22:45, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Freddie Mercury a leggiero tenor??

I notice that Freddie Mercury has been including in the list of leggiero tenors. Freddie certainly had a very versatile voice but I would question this classification. Assigning a classical voice classification to a rock singer is somewhat controversial in itself, but if we were to define Freddie Mercury's voice using classical terminology I'd have thought heldentenor might be more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Contains Mild Peril (talk • contribs) 13:10, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree completely. The heldentenor voice is a voice that has enough depth and volume and carrying power to sail across 20 horns playing the same pitch at octaves with the voice. Freddie Mercury, (as much as i love him, and what he did for modern music) cannot, in my opinion be classified as a tenor at all. If one were to listen to Freddie Mercury's speaking voice, one would find it to be much lower than one might expect. The reason being, that FM had developed his falsetto to an extreme. He was not singing in the modal register when he was singing, for the most part. If you listen closely, you can hear the pitch level at which he had to switch to falsetto. however, his transitions weren't nearly smooth and seamless enough and his resonance, and vocal production, while very impressive, was not trained enough to deserve a classical classification. If, however, one was going to attribute a fach for FM, i would have to say a very high baritone, with an incredible extension, and a very impressive falsetto. *visit questavoce.blogspot.com for other discussions —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Freddie's a tenor. See this. [1]--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 17:26, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with IP editor - rangewise he might fit as a tenor, but his timbre and vocal color are rich enough that he's more likely a baritone with a a huge upper extension and versatile falsetto. Its really no different than adding a low C extension to a double bass - in that its still a double bass, it doesn't turn into an octobass - which is a completely different instrument with a deeper color. 2 says you, says two 16:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

His timbre is too light to be a baritone. Plus he did most of his singing in the tenor range and used FULL VOICE for the most part when he was singing (not falsetto).--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 22:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Octave confusion

Maybe I'm wrong here but I think the writer of this article is confused over Middle C and octave numbers.

According to the Wikipedia article on Scientific pitch notation, Middle C (C4) is the line between the Treble and Bass clefs. However this article on Tenors claims the lowest note for Anthony in Sweeney Todd is an Ab2, that's a flattened note on the bottom space of the bass clef. This is certainly not the lowest note he sings and seems unusually low for any tenor to sing! He does however sing F5 (The second word sang in the song Johanna, "I feel you, Johanna...") which is higher than the the D5 note from Songs for a New World which the article claims to be beyond the expected range of a tenor.

I apologise if I'm the one in the wrong!

Rpxadair (talk • contribs) 01:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

unfortunately, you are wrong:) you are right with middle c being (C4) which makes the tenor high C (C5). the ocaves change at C, so D4 is the space below the last line of the treble staff, and the space above one line above the bass clef. In Johanna, the "feel" is in fact an F4. the F5 that you are thinking of is the high F that Arturo sings in I Puritani, by Bellini. Most tenor Repetoire has G4, A4 and occasionally B and Bb4, but only with the big stuff are there C5 and higher. I am fairly familiar with Songs for a new world, and i dont recall there being a high D5 in the show, (typical musical theatre singers usually do not have the classical vocal development and knowledge required to sing stratospheric tessatura. That is not to say that there are not opera singers that scream high notes, but most musical theatre composers do not write that tessatura for the tenors. In short, i believe that you were right on most points, but the F5 in johanna is not there, and you meant a F4. *please visit questavoce.blogspot.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.101.103.64 (talk) 23:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC)