Talk:Track and field

New article

Here is the basic draft I've been working on for track and field. Certainly, there are plenty of improvements to be made and many red links to create articles for. Anyone looking to add information about road running and cross country events should add that information to either the specific articles or to the parent Athletics (sport) article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits)^{Join WikiProject Athletics!} 11:33, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

There's rather a lot of overlap between this article and the "athletics" one; while it is certainly possible to draw a distinction between the broader term and the narrower one, it does not follow that they are best handled in separate articles. It's misleading to state that "It is under the banner of athletics that the two most prestigious international track field competitions are held"; the Olympics and Worlds also include the marathon and race walking. Perhaps it would be better to have separate "track" and "field" articles, and let "track and field" redirect to "athletics". Track running events have more in common with road racing than field events, apart from the minor detail of taking place in a stadium. While a minority of sprinters also long jump, it's less common than distance runners doubling up track and cross-country or marathon. And of course doping concerns are not specific to "track and field" either. jnestorius^(talk) 22:07, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

They are rather similar because the athletics article remains in a pretty bad state – halfway pulled by US editors towards track and field article and halfway pulled by non-US editors towards a holistic view of the sport of athletics. That is why it remains so dissatisfying for all readers. My original plan was to completely write the two separate articles in userspace and then move them to mainspace, but other editors started to build the "track and field athletics" article in the meantime.

While there is much athlete crossover in long distance, the sports of road running, track and field, and cross country are very much independent. We should discuss them as sports as a whole and not just from an athlete perspective. Outside of the World Championships in Athletics and at the various multi-sport events, the three sports almost never coincide. The IAAF Diamond League is distinctly a track and field meeting series.

While I understand the concerns of overlapping, there are essentially two principal ways in which these two topics can be dealt with in a encyclopaedic manner:

• Option 1: Have an in-depth article titled "athletics" which incorporates an extensive overview of track and field. No independent track and field article. (The "Britannica" or "French" solution).
• Option 2: Have an athletics article which relies on sub-articles for more extensive information; giving overviews of the sports of track and field, cross country and road running, among others.

Having given this some six months worth of though and work, it becomes clear that the first option is somewhat impossible here due to the fact that we must cater for a nationally-plural audience. The move of the main topic to "track and field athletics" some two years ago strongly underlines the fact that American readers not only expect there to be a specific "track and field" article, but that they do not understand when it comes under the title "athletics". On top of that, it is illogical to have an athletics article using "track and field" as a disambiguator or qualifier as athletics is more than just track and field. A similar term would be "United Kingdom (England)"; the latter forms a significant aspect of the former but they are two distinct ideas. With so much widespread usage of "Athletics (track and field)", it is no surprise that many US editors and readers confused the terms, and often thought it meant the kind of "athletics" that is covered in college athletics.

Further to this, as the sport of athletics is not just track and field, how do you start an athletics article when many people expect it to cover track and field? The definitions are different. The former title of Track and field athletics was doubly incorrect in that the term is actually synonym of "track and field sports" and "track and field", but its content covered the sport of athletics. In the real world, track and field athletics is never an exact synonym of athletics – neither cross country or a 5K street race could be described as forms of track and field athletics.

While from a British, Australian, or European perspective it would make most sense to pursue to topics by the "Britannica solution", the combination of the fact that track and field is a very common term in the US and Americans are typically unfamiliar with what Athletics (sport) covers, makes this solution unworkable. Hence, my decision to build two separate articles in the manner of athletics (sport) and track and field.

I don't think its misleading to state that the foremost track and field competitions come under the athletics banner, the Olympics site itself shows both track and field under the title of Athletics, just as swimming and diving come under the title of Aquatics. The idea of splitting the "track and field" article into "track events" and "field events" would not only ignore the fact that the two almost always come together as the same competition when held at professional level, but also leaves us again with the problem of redirecting American users to an "athletics" article where they expect "track and field" (and we all go back to square one). On the basis of these issues and perspectives, I think it's best that we develop athletics (sport) as a hub for the various sports it contains, rather than as a holistic article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits)^{Join WikiProject Athletics!} 14:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand some of your points. It seems as though you expect Americans to ignore a broader "athletics" article and just read a narrower "track and field" article; is this what you want to happen, or what you want to prevent happening? You ask "how do you start an athletics article when many people expect it to cover track and field?"; what is your own answer to this question? I'm also unclear what the difference is between a "hub" and a "holistic article". Maybe I should just wait till you've reworked athletics (sport) jnestorius^(talk) 17:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)